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Pilots Slumped Over in Small Plane over Cuba; F-15 Pilot Recording Shows Pilot Still Breathing; Plane Crashes Off Jamaican Coast.

Aired September 05, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You are watching CNN as we are following this breaking news. This smaller seven-seater turboprop plane that has been flying from 8:30 this morning from Rochester, New York, was supposed to land several hours later, in Naples, Florida. And as you can see, based upon this flight tracker here -- and keep in mind, it's a little bit delayed -- that hasn't happened. This plane has continued to fly southward. We have heard from Jamaican aviation authorities. It's now right around Jamaican air space, flown over Cuba. And so we have learned, too, that Cuba was cooperating with United States. And Cuba is saying this was not, as it flew through Cuban air space, not a violation, not a violation of its air space at the time. That's -- they're clarifying that are for us now.

A couple points if you're just tuning in. We're hearing that right around 10:00 this morning that is when they lost communication with this pilot, according to our sources at the Pentagon. A pilot and couple people on the plane. We're still trying to figure out exactly how many people. But that's what we're hearing at this moment.

10:00 this morning, pilot's unresponsive. And that is when it dropped some 3,000 feet. So there have been some changes in altitude with this plane. F-15 fighter jet scrambled. Cuban jet scrambled. Got close enough to see one of the pilots moving. Pilot slumped over. Frosted windows.

Brings us to the question, perhaps could this be a depressurized cabin, leading to hypoxia.

And that's where we're going to bring in our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, to explain to us, as this is one possibility. And let's be clear, this is still happening. We do not know what has happened on board this plane, as thus far it is still flying.

But, Elizabeth, what is hypoxia?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Brooke, I was speaking with a career test pilot who experienced hypoxia, which is not -- getting enough oxygen, both when he was training in an altitude chamber. They intentionally put pilots through this so they know what it feels like. And also happened to him on flights. And he said there are two different ways it can happen. If it happens very quickly, if you lose oxygen very quickly, he said the pilots would know it. You would get that fogging of the windows that you mentioned earlier. Your ears would pop. You would feel cold. You might get tunnel vision, because your retinas need oxygen, as well. And you do have a little bit of time. You know what's going on and you reach for the oxygen mask.

He said it can be even more dangerous when it happens slowly, because you might not notice. And he remembered watching colleagues in the altitude chamber where they lowered the oxygen slowly, and asked them to do simple math. And he said two-plus-two, couldn't even figure it out. But here's the interesting part. He said the pilots, they weren't upset by that. They weren't upset they didn't know what two- plus-two was. They were just confidently write some number and at some point just scribbling. And he said they looked kind of happy, sitting there smiling. They didn't realize that they had suffered from hypoxia. And so the slowness of it can be particularly vicious.

BALDWIN: So let me ask you this. If this is something that some of these pilots in training are going through, is it possible that there would be this lack of oxygen for X period of time and then a pilot could come to?

COHEN: Right. It is possible that you could not have oxygen, but then if you do get oxygen, you can recover. And certainly, if you're in a low-oxygen situation and you put on a mask, it's very quick. I mean, you'll sort of regain your full judgment pretty quickly. So you can recover. But you either have to get more oxygen, just, you know, naturally or from the mask.

BALDWIN: OK. Elizabeth, stay with me.

Mary Schiavo, let me bring you in, CNN aviation analyst.

Elizabeth brings up a great point. And also just talking to David Soucie a moment ago, talking about the Socata, this company. These are incredibly safe, incredibly reliable jets. I was wondering earlier if one were -- to have oxygen masks, but the fact that this plane and the pilot is still unresponsive, one would conclude no one is wearing a mask.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Or they weren't trained on it. This is a turboprop plane, single engine propeller plane. So, you know, you would hope they had been trained and they do have it, because this does happen. But many times it's the training that makes the difference whether you can get them on. And I think there was a very important clue about the 3,000 drop in altitude, because if the pilot recognized initially something was happening, what you would do on this plane with the glass cockpit, meaning a very sophisticated plane, although small, you would start your plane on a trajectory down, decrease altitude and start the plane to go down. I don't call it push a button, because it's a computer. But you head it down. And then in the meantime, what you would expect is they would call air traffic control and get their clearance to a lower level and call a May Day, that they've got a problem. And as the pilot was going unconscious, slumping over, that would suggest this hypoxia did set in and then he or she could not follow through with the rest of the flight recovery instructions. In other words, get the mask on, get down to a lower level, and by all means, call FAA.

BALDWIN: So based upon everything I've heard, and correct me, or someone get in my ear, there was no May Day call, correct?

SCHIAVO: That's what we're hearing.

BALDWIN: Mary --

SCHIAVO: That's what we're hearing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So then, from that point, when you hear, you know, clues of a pilot moving, a pilot slumping over, frosted windows, what would -- what would create that situation? Would it be -- I mean, that's really like -- that's the biggest question we don't know. What would have happened on board for the pilot to go down those 3,000 feet? Would a cabin have depressurized at that altitude?

SCHIAVO: Yes. And we're going on two recent events. Of course, the Payne Stewart plane, an outflow valve, a valve on the plane that failed and allowed the depressurization that left the plane. And then another plane, a commercial passenger plane, where the pilots only had been deprived of the oxygen. But that wouldn't be the case here. This plane is small enough that the cabin and the cockpit are one and the same. So if the pilots lost it, the cabin -- the people on board, if there were any in the passenger part, passenger compartment would have suffered an oxygen loss, too. They most likely would not have had the same kind of equipment, if the pilots had the masks they need to be trained to get on. This happened very quickly. If you have a rapid decompression, in tests they have done with the Air Force and others, sometimes it's difficult, even to get it on. You have to realize it ask get the thing on before your hypoxia sets in. You don't have a lot of time. You have seconds.

BALDWIN: Mary Schiavo, the more and more I hear about this, the more worrisome this whole situation is. Stay with me.

We have to get a quick break in. We now have -- as we have been reporting on what these F-15 fighter jet pilots have seen as they were trailing this small plane, we now have sound from one of those pilots, what he saw. Pretty dramatic. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. We've been watching the trajectory of this unresponsive plane that took off early this morning in Rochester, New York. Supposed to land in Naples, Florida. Flown over Cuba. According to Jamaica, nearing or was nearing Jamaican air space. And the last known -- this is what we have right now. The last known data from this FlightAware website, from this plane was posted at 2:11 p.m. eastern time. So that was about half an hour ago. As we have been telling you, U.S. scrambled two F-15 fighter jets. And so now we have sound from one of those pilots as they were trying to get close to this unresponsive jet and try to see the small plane to see what was going on, if they saw any movement inside.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

F-15 PILOT: I can see his chest rising and falling. It was the first time we could see that he was actually breathing. And it may be a deal where depending on how fast they descend, he may regain consciousness once the aircraft starts descending for fuel starvation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. Miles O'Brien, let me bring you in, CNN aviation analyst here.

That's the first time we have actually heard from one of those F-15 fighter pilots. And to hear first that this pilot's chest was rising and falling, what does that suggest to you?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, obviously, still alive. But the question, Brooke, and I couldn't hear very well the audio. And I know you've had a chance to parse it a little better.

BALDWIN: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: Did the pilot have his emergency oxygen mask on? That's a key question here. In the case of decompression, whether it's sudden or insidious, there is backup oxygen and a mask that the pilot is instructed to put on in order to stay conscious. At 25,000 feet, 28,000 feet, you have between three and six minutes of what is called useful consciousness. And I have been in an altitude chamber. It's very insidious, because when you're running out of oxygen, you actually get rather euphoric. And you make very bad decisions. And you can't -- you try to do two-plus-two and you come up with eight. And so it's a real trap for pilots, especially a single pilot scenario. Just last week, a SR-22, a small, single-engine aircraft, had appeared to be a similar scenario, flying to Manassas, Virginia, flew through the Washington restricted air space, ultimately crashed off an island in Virginia. So this does happen. Of course, everybody remembers 1999 and the Payne Stewart flight --

BALDWIN: Right.

O'BRIEN: -- out of Orlando, Florida, supposedly to Texas. So this happens. It's a scary thing. And it's important for pilots to be vigilant on this.

BALDWIN: Your point about the oxygen mask, that is precisely what I was asking Mary Schiavo about. Because if you hear, first of all, if the pilot's chest is rising and falling, then the next thing, you know, according to this pilot, you know, they saw him slumped over. You see the frosted windows. Certainly brings up issues of perhaps depressurization of the cabin. But then Miles, what about the fact that at 10:00 this morning, when the pilot was unresponsive, and according to reports, the plane dropped in altitude some 3,000 feet. Would that indicate at the time the pilot knew something was up, was trying to adjust?

O'BRIEN: Well, I don't know. I am not putting much credence into that. What's interesting about this -- and stay with me on this -- is that if you look at the initial route, the initial route was what he filed his flight plan for. He was going to go to a place called Taylor in southeast Georgia, near the swamp and then Gainesville, Florida, and then Naples. His initial route was headed toward Georgia, and at North Carolina turned and lowered altitude. What's interesting about that is, when he turned, he turned to an altitude that -- air traffic control prefers pilots to be at an odd altitude. So 25,000. That's odd. He was at 28,000, a westerly altitude, which is the appropriate altitude for the initial heading. So was he given a course deviation by air traffic control? Told to turn left, and because he was turning left, he was supposed to go down to that add altitude? That could be the case. In any case, 28,000 or 25,000 -- if you think you're running out of oxygen, you need to get down to 10,000 quickly.

What's interesting here as well is, if he was alive and he was descending through as it ran out of gas, it's quite possible he could have revived at 10,000 feet as oxygen started filling his lungs and ultimately got through and got through, was coursing through his veins. In 2005, 737, in Greece, the Helios crashed. It ultimately crashed with 20-odd people on it, but as it went down, a flight attendant was able to get into the cockpit.

BALDWIN: Wow.

O'BRIEN: Had some flight training and tried to save the airplane but it was after it got down to about 10,000 feet that he was able to get in there.

BALDWIN: I was wondering if the pilot ultimately could come to. But the fact is --

O'BRIEN: Yes.

BALDWIN: -- if this red dotted line continues, and so far, unresponsive.

Miles O'Brien, you are precisely the person I would like to keep talking to. If you will, stay put right there in that chair in our Boston studio.

Again, the last known data from this FlightAware, that this tracking of the plane was posted half an hour ago, 2:11: p.m.

Quick break. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news. BALDWIN: All right. Now we have it. Major development here in this

breaking story of this unresponsive plane that took off from Rochester earlier this morning. We are now getting word this plane has crashed off the coast of Jamaica.

Rene Marsh, let me bring you in.

And tell me exactly what you are learning.

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: At this point, Brooke, I have very little information. Just got off the phone with the FAA. And that is what we know. We know that this plane is in the water, according to the FAA. We don't know exactly where along the island of Jamaica, but it is in the water. It has crashed off the coast of Jamaica.

We are expecting to get more details in a matter of minutes from the FAA, filling in the blanks here. But this is what we know, that this plane is no longer in the air. It is now in the water off the coast of the island of Jamaica -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: OK, in the water.

Rene, thank you.

Mary Schiavo, Miles O'Brien, aviation analysts. Have lots and lots of years of dealing with planes.

And, Mary, to you, as far as crash investigations go, tell me the procedure. What happens now that we know this plane is in the water?

SCHIAVO: Well, now that we know it's in the water, the national transportation safety board will coordinate with Jamaica. Both have an interest in it. The U.S. -- the plane was a French and U.S. manufacture. The U.S. manufacturing part of it is Muni. So they will be on-scene and coordinating with Jamaica.

Jamaica is experienced in air crash investigations. American Airlines went down there, went off the end of the runway about three or four years ago. So they do have experience. They will work together and it will be important. They know exactly where the plane is. Not that, they have to find it in the water. But they will need to first of all do a rescue and recovery for the people on board. And then get that plane, because it's going to be very important, because it's a pretty new plane, a fairly new, with an earlier this year certification date. So they will treat it pretty much like an accident investigation in the United States. And I think that the NTSB will probably end up taking the lead.

BALDWIN: In case you're just joining us, we are now getting word this plane has clash crashed in the waters off Jamaica.

Miles O'Brien with me, as well.

And presumably, the question what happened on board to lead the pilots to be -- or the pilot to be unresponsive and ultimately have this plane land in the water, but the plane ran out of fuel. What are your big questions, Miles?

O'BRIEN: Well, I would like to know a little bit about how much experience the pilot with this particular type of aircraft. According to the registry information, it's a brand-new airplane. It was just ferried over from France in February. And the limited liability corporation, which held the airplane, not uncommon for aircraft ownership, even for individuals, began its registration with the aircraft only in April. So this is apparently -- certainly, this particular aircraft is new to the pilot. Was this type of aircraft relatively new to the pilot? And was there some question about understanding and time and experience managing the systems on the TBM- 700. This is a very high-performance single engine airplane, a turboprop, essentially a jet engine with a propeller. And it's pressurized. But it is also single-pilot rated. So it requires a pilot that -- to be on his or her toes. And so that would be one of the key questions I would like to know.

BALDWIN: To your point, I think Mary was making as well, with the oxygen masks, what kind of training would the pilot have? Would he or she have the time and wherewithal to put the oxygen mask on, depending what happened as the plane was flying along.

Mary Schiavo, to you. My question would be now that we know that this plane, and correct me if I am wrong, control room, it did run out of fuel and you have this unresponsive pilot, how would this kind of plane crash? The actual trajectory? How would it have crashed in the water?

SCHIAVO: Well, I think what would have happened is when it ran out of fuel, of course, the engine would have stopped. And I think it would have entered in what's called an aerodynamic stall. In other words, the plane wouldn't have gradually posted down and made a skimming landing on the water. It would have -- when it finally ran out of fuel, it would have stopped having forward motion, it would have pitched up briefly, fallen over most likely towards the right wing. It would have fallen over, and then tumbled into the -- into the water. It would have not gone in gradually. It would have gone on in, in a crash mode. So they're going to be looking at a crash site, not a landing on water. It just would not have glided down gradually, and so it will probably be in a number of pieces in the water. Even intact, they don't float very long. So they'll be doing a water recovery.

BALDWIN: OK. Mary Schiavo, thank you.

Miles O'Brien, thank you.

Stay with me.

And just to be clear, getting confirmation from the control room, we do not know whether the plane ran out of fuel. That is one hypothesis, as it took off many hours ago, 8:30 this morning from Rochester, New York.

Quick break. Once again, in case you're just joining us, we can now tell you that this plane did crash in the waters off of Jamaica. We'll be right back.

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