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Obama Delays Immigration Reform; Former Hostage Names His Captor; Belgium Shooting Suspect May Be Tied to ISIS

Aired September 06, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Five o'clock Eastern Time. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you this evening from New York.

President Obama is delaying executive action on immigration reform at least for now. The White House says no action until after the November midterm elections. The President is weighing executive moves that may allow a path to legal status for millions of undocumented workers in this country. Options may include expanding a deferred deportation program of children of immigrants who are living illegally in this country. The president's decision is getting plenty of criticism, House Speaker John Boehner saying, quote, "The decision to simply delay smacks of raw politics."

He wants the President to abandon taking executive action all together. Some immigration advocacy groups are furious over the delay. Christina Jimenez of the United We Dream says, quote, "The President's latest broken promise is another slap in the face of the Latino and immigrant community." President Obama's decision affects many, many people far from the nation's capital. In recent months thousands of unaccompanied children fled their homes in Central America and arrived in the United States and many escaping violence in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. Hundreds of protests broke out across the United States demonstrators saying those children should be sent back home.

Our Rosa Flores has been covering this very closely. You spent time down in Honduras and you interviewed the president of El Salvador about this. Let's talk about what this decision to delay executive action until after the November midterms, what does it mean for these people, these children, their families.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, I've talked to a lot of advocates that are advocating for these children and they say that the one thing that they were hoping that this executive order would do for these children is due process. Because you've heard about this, Poppy, you've heard about those surge dockets where the day is cleared for these immigration judges that they can listen to the cases of these unaccompanied children and of women and children. I actually was there yesterday. Just as an observer and we can't bring pictures of this to our viewers because cameras are not allowed.

But I want to just paint a picture for you because I think this is very telling. The attorney for the government was more than 16 minutes late. Then the attorney for the government arrived. And she didn't have the cases for the children that were going to be seen that day. In other words, didn't know what the cases were for those particular children. Which is a huge issue and one of the reasons why these advocates are so outraged because they are expediting these surge dockets but shouldn't they be prepared to actually hear what these the cases for these children --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- parent's case, I think.

FLORES: Exactly. And we've got to remember that these children, the areas that they're fleeing, I've been to these areas. These are very scary and sorry to be graphic about this, but I mean, you see dead bodies, women being raped, bodies being displayed out in a community just so that the gang members can send a message to that community as to what they're capable of doing if you don't follow their rule of law. One of the things is more taxes, for example. They charge all of the people in the community money and these are poor communities that don't have money to put food on the table yet those are the circumstances that they're leaving.

HARLOW: Right. Obviously this just coming down from the White House today, but, you know, you've got people on both sides upset with the president. You've got other supporters of the president saying, look, you should wait until after the midterm elections. What have you heard from people who I know feel like the president failed to carry through this promise that he said on June 30th would happen by the end of the summer.

FLORES: Well, advocates are saying it's not just the president. They feel that it's Congress as well, because this is not just about the issue that is on the border right now. This is a very extensive issue. It's about immigration reform and the millions of people who are in this country undocumented who are, you know, waiting for some sort of answer and some sort of structure, so they're saying it's politics over policy and some things should be done. And the message now is that, again, one more time, it's politics over policy because of the determination.

HARLOW: Would they rather have comprehensive reform or they wanted something?

FLORES: Well, absolutely, they definitely want comprehensive immigration reform. But something they say is better than nothing at this point.

HARLOW: Rosa Flores, I appreciate the reporting. I know you'll stay on it as you have for months here on CNN. Thank you.

FLORES: You're welcome.

HARLOW: All right. Let's talk more about the president's decision to delay that executive action on immigration -- any action on immigration until after the midterm. CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill both join me. Something tells me this will be a fiery debate, gentlemen, so thank you for being here. Marc, to begin with you. The president has angered people on both

sides of the debate with this decision. You have John Boehner saying, look, he should not only delay it, he shouldn't do it at all with executive action. You've got some from as Rosa and I were just talking about those advocacy groups saying you know, you promised us something and this isn't happening. You've got other supporters of his in his own party saying it was the right move because the Senate hangs in the balance. Was it the right move?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, it wasn't the right move. I was sort of laughing when you say Ben and I might have a fiery debate. Ben and I might actually agree that this was the wrong move -- Ben thinks the president made the wrong move. But we probably think that for different reasons. For me, one, it is a broken promise and over the last four or actually six years of President Obama's administration there have been many promises made. Not just by Obama but by the Congress, Republicans and Democrats to advance immigration.

Whenever, there's something that hangs in the ballots whether it's a midterm election, whether it's a presidential election, whether it's just a popularity rating, whether it's an approval ranking. There's always a reason not to move forward on immigration. It doesn't help that the House obviously is given -- the Senate is given little help here. But it's ultimately what looks like a broken promise to the president. Also, the kind of open calculus that says, look, I'm doing this for openly political reasons, does not look good, and it doesn't stop.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That seems worse.

HILL: Right. And it doesn't stop Republicans finally from saying, look, this guy after November it's still going to do something that violates the executive powers afforded by the constitution. I think the Republicans are wrong about that. But that's still going to be there talking point of delaying and saying, why you are going to delay it doesn't make it easier for them.

HARLOW: Ben, to you --

FERGUSON: I've never enjoyed hearing Marc Lamont Hill give a commentary more than what he just said because he's absolutely right. You have a president that has been playing the Latino community and Democrats have been now for what has it been, seven years. Remember, when Barack Obama ran --

HILL: And Republicans.

FERGUSON: -- and he was then senator, he said if you elect me and if you give me the House and the Senate, we're going to pass immigration reform. They had the votes to do it. They did it, they decide not to do it on purpose. They didn't want to do it then. They didn't have to work with Republicans. They didn't have to deal with the Republicans. They wanted to use it as a campaign issue and that's exactly what you're seeing now. He said I'm going to act this summer. And then all of a sudden, Democrats said don't act, don't act, he goes OK, I won't act until after the elections. That's playing politics. HARLOW: Let me jump in here, to you Marc, I mean, when you look

though, executive action can only go so far. If you want comprehensive reform you're going to need Congress, you're going to need the Senate, you're going to need the House. You have the Senate on immigration reform before. Boehner made it clear, House is not acting on it at all in 2014. When you look at it big picture, though, do you think that there is the argument to be made that this call was made because you don't want to lose the Senate?

HILL: You know, I get the strategy of it. What I don't get is why in June you said you're going to do it why you would promise executive action which is already an organizing point, a fund raising point and a voting point for the Republican Party. I just think it's bad strategy. I don't have a problem with president saying, look, I'm going to make executive action because the House has been stubborn on this issue, despite what Ben says, Republicans have never been friendly on this issue. They've never been reasonable on this issue and yet we had a single majority for, like, 12 minutes.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: I don't think that's --

This is -- this is the deal, though, if you voted for Barack Obama, and you thought he was going to act on immigration reform, you've been played. They did have the votes for two years when he first became president. They didn't put any legislation in front of the Congress which they controlled.

HARLOW: Because they had things tackling first.

FERGUSON: But no, the point was, they could have tackled it because they had the votes to do it. You can't now say, oh, we want to act but the other side won't let us. You're in charge of the White House, you're in charge of the Senate, you had the votes in the House at one point. All this is for them is a buying-votes strategy to get people riled up.

HILL: I don't think so.

FERGUSON: If you keep voting for us. Then why haven't they acted in the last six-and-a-half years, Marc? They had it. They just need -- this is a political election issue, that's all it is.

HILL: Ben, you may not have heard of this, right? Hut there was this big domestic policy initiative called universal health care. It took a lot of political capital.

FERGUSON: It wouldn't take any political capital for you to pass immigration reform if you're talking to Democratic Party based on even what you are saying now today.

HILL: Here's the irony of that point, Ben, if the president had done that in the first six months in office, you would have said they ram right of immigration reform to the country without any Republican approval. FERGUSON: But if you're a Democrat you don't care. If you're

Democrat, you don't care on that point because you would have won.

HILL: But we're not speaking -- what the president attempted to do was actually get a consensus here and actually pass legislation that made sense for both sides.

HARLOW: Guys, I'm going to jump in here --

FERGUSON: This coming from a guy that's now doing executive action? The guy who doing executive action?

HARLOW: I'm going to jump in here, Ben, we have to take a quick break. Marc, we have to take a quick break. You promised this wasn't going to be a fiery debate, I think I was right.

HILL: I'm sorry.

HARLOW: We're going to talk more about it and many more big issues including ISIS a little bit later in the show. So, don't go anywhere, gentlemen. And we appreciate your insight.

Also this now in the newsroom, a shooting at a Jewish Center in Belgium and the suspect allegedly has strong ties to ISIS.

Plus, the Georgia father charged with murder for leaving his toddler in a hot car. The question now, could he get the death penalty? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The U.S. military continuing its assault on ISIS terrorists in Northern Iraq. U.S. Central Command says, the latest round of air strikes destroyed humvees, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles. The U.S. has been conducting those limited air strikes on ISIS targets since early August. The militant group has made sweeping advances in Iraq since June and also controls a large swath of Syria. Today's air strikes come on the same day that we're learning more about an extremist reportedly an ISIS veteran who has been linked to the taking of western hostages. A French journalist who was himself a hostage is now pointing fingers and naming names.

Our Karl Penhaul is in London. Karl, what is the latest on this?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's certainly a long trail that takes us from an Islamic radical purportedly who fought in Syria to an attack in Brussels, in Europe, and what is French journalist Nicolas Henin came out today and said at a press conference was that he believes that one of the men who is responsible for beating him and torturing him during his time as a western hostage in Syria is one in the same. It's the man who carried out that killing spree at a Jewish museum in Brussels in May and he says he looked at video and photos offered to him by police after the attack and positively identified Mehdi Nemmouche as the man who held him and other western hostages in Syria. Now, one of the key things here, of course, is that investigators will

be looking at this and seeing to see what evidence they can get. But it's unlikely that they're going to get any actionable intelligence that will help him save other western hostages being held in Syria right now because Nemmouche came back to Europe in December or January and that's when he was planning for those attacks in Belgium -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And Karl, that is the big concern here. We'll talk about it more with Bob Baer in just a moment but that is the concern here that if this is indeed the case someone who was trained and working alongside ISIS there in Syria in Iraq, then going over the border back into Europe and carrying out allegedly something like this.

PENHAUL: Absolutely, Poppy, and that is what all the European countries are concerned about right now. Here in Britain they reckoned there are probably 500 British-born jihadists fighting in Syria alongside ISIS. The French reckon they have several hundred more in Holland and Belgium as well. And then if you look at this kind of attack that took place in Brussels at the Jewish museum, that was carried out by one man. And so you would think that if tens or even hundreds of these fighters come back from Syria or from Iraq with their ISIS training, they could create absolute havoc here in Europe and that's what the European authorities are concerned about -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And that has been the discussion in Europe, in the United States this week with Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, what threat does ISIS present to the homeland, in Europe and the United States. Thank you, Karl Penhaul, for that. We'll going to discuss much more on the ISIS threat ahead including a look at whether or not the U.S. really has enough intelligence to take on ISIS effectively. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We've been talking about the suspect in a deadly shooting at a Jewish museum in Belgium in May. You'll remember that. Well, his possible ties are now to ISIS jihadist fighting in Syria. This information coming from a French journalist who was a former captive.

Let me bring in CNN national security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer. So, we just heard about this from our Karl Penhaul, the details of this. You know, the French journalist saying, look, this same suspect in that shooting was someone who was my captor in Syria. How concerned does this make you in terms of those ISIS fighters being trained, working alongside other ISIS members and then coming back into Europe?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, precisely, Poppy. Look here. He's French. He's got a French passport. He's radicalized in France. Entified or whatever you want to call it. And Syria comes along. He goes there, gets his training, becomes more radicalized and more violent and comes back either on his own or the direction of ISIS and shoots up a museum in Belgium with Kalashnikov.

Kalashnikovs are not for sale in Belgium. The fact that he could get it automatic weapon and attack this mosque and not be detected by French intelligence which by the way is very good domestically should be of concern. Now, he just as easily could have continued on to New York. And landed and made a bomb on his own and turned into a suicide bomber. Why he didn't, we don't know, because the intelligence isn't good enough.

HARLOW: And this is something that we've been talking about is, you know, does the United States have enough intelligence on ISIS to fight them effectively. I don't know if you ever have enough intelligence on groups like this. But what about our European counterparts and their intelligence on ISIS?

BAER: They're just as bad or weak or whatever you want to call it. But it's a hard target. They would like to be inside. They would like to know where their hostages are being held, who is holding them and what it would take to get them out. They would be happy to pass that intelligence to the United States but they simply don't have it. This group is so radicalized, you just cannot put a source in it. With al Qaeda it was the same way. You could not get a source because they are true believers and they're not going to take money to spy on ISIS.

HARLOW: And so barbaric this group and what they have done. Fascinating article in the "New Republic." Righting about how several aspiring jihadist are buying books online, have bought books online including Islam for dummies, the Koran for dummies. When you look at that, the "New Republic" article goes on to say, you could not ask for better evidence to bolster the argument that the 1,400-year-old Islamic faith has little to do with the modern jihadist movement. Do you agree with that assessment or are these one-offs?

BAER: I totally agree. These people that are holding the hostage -- the ISIS hostages in particular the ones that killed Foley and Sotloff, don't understand Islam. The use of a knife, a beheading, is pre-Islamic. It's tribal. They've gone back to a fantastic Islam that never existed. But they believe that's what this is. And the fact that in these execution tapes they didn't cite the Koran, they don't speak Arabic, tells me that they don't really understand the religion. But that makes them more dangerous, Poppy, because they just think they can go on and kill whoever they want for any reason. And let's not forget that ISIS is killing more Muslims than these westerners.

HARLOW: Right. Right. A very important point. I said last hour I wanted to talk to you about this and I certainly do. As a former CIA operative given the amount of knowledge that the U.S., the European counterparts have on ISIS and all the things we don't know, how do you most effectively combat them?

BAER: You know, you have to -- you have to pull them aside and get rid of them. There's no other way. And I think we've seen this in Egypt where the Egyptians went after the Muslim Brotherhood, the radical wing, when they are still fighting them, but it takes an authoritarian government to really go after them. There's no negotiations. There's no democracy. You know, I hate to say it but you really do need force, but don't forget it's the force of the locals that we really need. We don't want to appear to be at war with Islam or a particular sect.

So, we need a coalition. We need the Arabs. We need in particular the Saudis to take this seriously and cut off the funds and cut off the recruits because the second largest group in ISIS are Saudis. They are getting radicalized at home and they're leaving for Syria and Iraq and these people are really, really bad and they need to be eliminated.

HARLOW: The U.S. has made clear air strikes will continue. We'll see if they happen in Syria. We know that's an option. But what also has been clear from the U.S. government, there's no boots on the ground. Bob Baer, I appreciate the expertise, thank you.

From no strategy to degrade to destroy, President Obama's evolving narrative on the U.S. strategy to combat ISIS. Has he been overly cautious? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: President Obama used his final NATO Summit News Conference to stake out his policy against ISIS and to expand his previous remarks about the terror group. The president has been escalating his rhetoric towards ISIS. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But I don't want to put the cart before the horse. We don't have a strategy yet.

We can continue to shrink ISIL's sphere of influence, its effectiveness, its financing, its military capabilities to the point where it is a manageable problem.

We're going to achieve our goal. We are going to degrade and ultimately defeat ISIL.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN commentators Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson join me again.

Marc, we just heard the president go from we don't have a strategy yet to ISIS can be quote "manageable problem" to we are going to degrade and ultimately defeat them in a matter of about a week in terms of the changes of the language there. Do you think the president has had a tough time defining his -- our strategy against ISIS?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think ISIS is a tough entity to defend or rather to destroy and I think that's been the president's strategy. I think a week ago saying that we don't have strategy was obviously poor messaging.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Just a bad day.

HILL: It's an awful day. Maybe one of the worst moments probably in his presidency in terms of articulating strategy. But I do think to say we have a developing strategy against ISIS isn't wrong. And I think, you know, it's very easy to be David Cameron, it is very easy to be the old school George Bush and say look, we're going to go out there, we are going to destroy them, we are smoke them out, we are going to obliterate the enemy, all that tough -talking cowboy language sounds great. But what the president is attempting to do is to have a deliberative approach and a reasonable strategy. I don't entirely agree with the president's strategy. But I do think -- I don't see any one with deliberate approach is taking anything. I'm concerned that what we're about to do is make more strange bedfellows and essentially do replicate our mistakes from 2003.

HARLOW: Ben, to you.

FERGUSON: Yes.

HARLOW: I mean, the president has been known for being cool, calm, and collected, right? And when you look at a situation where, look, we just heard Bob Baer, former CIA operative say the U.S. intelligence on ISIS is not nearly enough. So, is the president wise to be a bit cautious? Is that fair?

FERGUSON: I don't think it's an issue of being a bit cautious. I think it's an issue of really not focusing on this threat and treating it for the major threat that it is. And I think that's the reason why you saw so many around the president this week come out and say bold statements whether it be from the Pentagon, whether it be from Congress and making it clear that we need to focus on this.

I just don't think it was a top priority of this White House and that's the reason why he was asked a question. He had to admit we don't have a strategy yet. It's something I haven't been really focused on. So, in the last week he's been focused on it a little bit. But saying we don't have a strategy, he's saying I'm not focused on it that much.

HILL: That's not true. I would argue.

HARLOW: Let me jump in. Let me jump in here, gentlemen. We did hear defense secretary Chuck Hagel say midweek in his interview here on CNN with Jim Sciutto talking about ISIS, they're an army, they control half of Iraq today and half of Syria. Went on to say we better be taking them seriously. So you do have some very strong words coming out of the administration.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: But I want to read you quote. I want you to respond to this quote, Marc, this coming on an op-ed on CNN by Princeton Historian, Julian Zelizer, and he said talking about the president, he said he should use the final years of his presidency to help create a foundation for the public to face these challenges and start thinking about a viable and rational path forward in coming years. The costs of remaining silent, of being too cool are too high.

Now, the president has not been silent on this, but do you think he has a point, Marc? HILL: No.

HARLOW: Why?

HILL: He's neither silent nor unprepared on this issue. But I think that he has a responsibility to create a long-term path. And I think long term path is one that means the U.S. forces are not on the ground. Ultimately, regional forces have to resolve this issue. And I think what the president is moving toward is that approach.

Back in August when he first authorized air strikes his point was we're not going to get dragged back down into an Iraqi civil war. That was a wise move by President Obama. And I think ultimately that's what he wants to do and we're seeing it right now. In the north the PKK, the Kurdistan workers party is handling most of the business up north. In the south, we see everyone from Iran to other forces doing this. In Syria, we have a range of forces on the ground. That's what you need to see. It creates strange bedfellows and create complications in terms of our NATO allies. But it needs to be done.

HARLOW: To you, Ben, very quickly before we go to a break.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: It's one thing to talk about the president's words and the other thing to talk about the U.S. action. Are you saying the U.S. should be taking more action than it is to fight ISIS?

FERGUSON: Yes. And I think it's also an issue of if we lead others will follow. And as we've been sitting back and kind of waiting for other coalitions to come together it's not working. And look it, the proof of it they have taken over 50 percent of Iraq. So I think that's why you saw David Cameron come out this past week and be so bold because he realized somebody has to step up and fill this void before the 50 percent goes to 75 percent or 100 percent.

HARLOW: They're not sending boots on the ground. The U.S. isn't sending. Is that what you want to see?

HILL: What do you do?

FERGUSON: Here's the thing I don't think you don't say what you won't do to your enemy the same way that all the football games going on this weekend you didn't have any coaches saying we're not going to do any trick plays and we're not going to go for Hail Marys. You don't tell the enemy and you are competing against what you are doing.

HARLOW: On that point -- Marc --

HILL: Ben wants the president to say a strategy but he doesn't want the president to say a strategy. You've been spending the last two weeks blasting the president for not articulating a strategy. What are you talking about?

HARLOW: You guys argue about it in the commercial break. You take a break. And Ben and Marc will join us on the other side. We are going to talk about the words being used. Vice president Joe Biden saying he'd chase ISIS into hell. That language, much stronger than the president's. We are going to talk about whether or not there is a division within the president's own closest team next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We're talking about ISIS and American foreign policy with CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

The world, of course, everyone was saddened this week by the execution of a second American by is terrorist, journalist Steven Sotloff. I want you to compare, take a listen to President Obama's response to Sotloff's horrific death and also secretary John Kerry what he came out and said afterwards.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We will not be intimidated. Their horrific acts only unite us as a country to stiffen our resolve and take the fight against these terrorists.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: When we saw Steven Sotloff, an American journalist who left home in Florida in order to tell the story of brave people in the Middle East, we saw him brutally taken from us in an act of medieval savagery by a coward hiding behind a mask.

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They should know we will follow them to the gates of hell until they are brought to justice. Because hell is where they will reside!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: We all know that the president, Marc and Ben, is known for being cool, collected, calm, you know, that was also classic Joe Biden, right? The emotion coming out.

To you first, Ben. Does it matter that the words used are different? It's clear that they are all enraged by what happened or do you see this as somewhat of a disconnect?

FERGUSON: Well, I think there is a disconnect. And I've said this for a long time. I never want Barack Obama to fail on foreign policy on issues or national security. When an American a beheaded anywhere in the world, he is the person that is going to speak on behalf of all of us. And I want there to be some passion. I want him to be upset. I would want him to be enraged a little bit because he is the guy in charge of our response.

But it also comes back to this timidness. I mean, look at him this week. He won't even admit that Russia has invaded parts of Ukraine. And everyone watching knows that parts of Ukraine has been invaded by Russians, but he won't say it. And it's a foreign policy blunder --

HARLOW: He's not the only leader of a western --

FERGUSON: -- and show passion on the issue.

HARLOW: He's not the only leader of a western country to use the word.

FERGUSON: But we're not an average nation. We're a great nation that also leads on these foreign policy issues. And so, there needs to be bluntness from our president. When an American is beheaded at the hands of a ruthless, sadistic, ISIS group, you don't need to be timid in that moment.

HARLOW: Marc?

HILL: I don't think the president's policy has been timid. This is a week where the leader of al-Shabaab in Somalia, in al-Qaeda affiliate has been killed. Osama bin Laden was killed. Plenty of air strikes, terror drones, preside for drones excuse me, used in Yemen for the last six years at least. We've seen so match militarism and war from this president. I think it would be absurd to suggest that he is timid or weak of anything. He is probably --

FERGUSON: Fifty percent of Iraq is in the hands of ISIS, that's timid.

HILL: Yes, but ISIS in Iraq is not coming from Obama being timid. If anything, ISIS in Iraq is from the American occupation in Iraq. Let me respond to the actual question.

FERGUSON: Thin red line in Syria. Another example of being timid is Syria and the thin red line and then yet we didn't back it off.

HILL: I don't think -- it wasn't timidity. The issue was articulating the line in the first place. I think the president's decision not to bomb Syria because of chemical strikes was probably right. Again, arming rebels wasn't necessarily the wrong move. It's was simply how it was articulated.

And Ben, I agree with you on one point. And I think there are times when the American people are looking for someone to emote, looking for someone to strike that passion. You saw it from Biden. You saw that with Kerry, you there with McCain, who never saw something he didn't want to blow up.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Let me jump in here on a point you agree on. And I want to talk about another foreign story before we let you go. I want to pivot to this IRS email story that has had major developments over the past 24 hours. The IRS is now admitting it's lost the emails of five more employees who worked on the approvals for tax exempt groups like the tea party. All of this goes back to the last election. Of course, you will remember the IRS was accused of singling out conservative political groups giving them extra scrutiny, even rejecting some of their applications for tax exempt status, emails belonging to Lois Lerner, the IRS official who headed that division and process have already been lost, she's since retired. To you, Marc, five more people now have the missing emails. Do you

blame that on a computer crash? Because there's a lot of people pointing fingers and saying there is something else.

HILL: Of course. Just a computer crash! My computer crashes all the time.

HARLOW: You believe?

HILL: The IRS said it, I believe it. No, no! This is absurd. The IRS is full of it. OK? We all know the IRS has followed bad procedure.

FERGUSON: Thank you.

HILL: The IRS has some clear corruption here. The Senate investigation on this suggested, though, that the corruption and the problems aren't partisan based which is why I said when this thing first happened and everybody said I was wrong. I said, look, the IRS is screwed up in a lot of ways. And there's a lot of unethical stuff going on, but I don't think it's partisan. That's what this committee and investigation showed and so I was right.

FERGUSON: No. I don't think you are right at all. If you read, there's two different reports. In one side is defending the IRS. The other and one side is showing what actually happened and that was a lot of conservative groups were targeted. You can't get me near the same amount of names of liberal groups that were targeted. And at the end of the say, the IRS is the one part of the government that can be literally rip up and destroy and take away and seize almost all of your belongings. And a special prosecutor should be appointed by the justice department to look in to this because you and I agree on one issue.

There's lying going on at the IRS. There's not all those email computer crashes of five, six, seven different people. And a special prosecutor should look in to it for all people involved because they are lying and it's corruption and it should not have happen with the IRS.

HARLOW: On that point, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for coming on the program. We appreciate it.

HILL: Always fun.

FERGUSON: Pleasure, Poppy.

HARLOW: Coming up next here in the NEWSROOM, he says it was a tragic accident, now this Georgia father is facing murder charges for leaving his toddler in a hot car. That story, all the details next.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

A little boy's father in Georgia could face the death penalty. 22- month-old Cooper Harris died in his car seat left there for hours on a hot Atlanta summer day. Our Martin Savidge has the details.

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MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Justin Ross Harris is charged with three counts of murder including malice murder, it's Georgia's most serious crime and opens the door for death.

VIC REYNOLDS, D.A. COBB COUNTY, GEORGIA: Whether or not the state seeks the death penalty in this case will be made decision-wise on or before that arraign the date in the next two to three weeks.

SAVIDGE: It was June 18th when Harris pulled into this parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just screamed what had I done loudly.

SAVIDGE: Harris still believes he forgot to take 22-month-old Cooper to day care instead leaving him strapped in his car seat in an Atlanta-area office parking lot for nearly seven hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopped out of the driver's seat. Opened the back door. Pulled his child out. Laid him on the concrete. Tried to resuscitate him.

SAVIDGE: Cooper was dead. A tragic accident, Harris said, but police quickly began to doubt dad's story. In a warrant, authorities said Harris admitted to Internet searches on child death inside vehicles and what temperature it needs to be for that to occur. The next bombshell came during a hearing.

DETECTIVE PHIL STODDARD, COBB COUNTY POLICE: He was having up to six different conversations with different women.

SAVIDGE: Investigators say they have evidence this father and husband yearned to be single leading a sexually charged double life with multiple women on the Internet, sexting even the day his son was dying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were photos being sent back and forth between these women and the defendant during this day while the child's out in the car?

STODDARD: Yes, there are photos of his exposed penis, his erect penis, being sent. There were also photos of women's breasts being sent back to him.

SAVIDGE: Thursday Harris' attorney reiterated his client's innocence slamming prosecutors for charging a broken man with multiple confusing counts of murder.

MADDOX KILGORE, JUSTIN ROSS HARRIS' ATTORNEY: And now, an indictment that includes three counts of murder. But we still don't know what the state's theory is.

SAVIDGE: Meanwhile, the D.A. implied there could be another arrest.

REYNOLDS: The evidence in this case has led us to this point today. Whether or not it leads us to anyone else remains to be answered.

SAVIDGE: A not so subtle reference that an attorney for Harris' wife and Cooper's mother was directed at his client, Leanna Harris. By now, I would have thought they would make a final decision and clear her from wrong doing. The case that has already shocked many is only just beginning.

Martin Savidge, CNN, Marietta.

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HARLOW: Martin, thank you for that. The question now becomes what is next for this Georgia father. Will he face the death penalty?

Joining me to discuss is CNN commentator and legal analyst Mel Robbins. So let's talk about malice murder. That is the only of these eight charges that could bring him the death penalty, be found guilty. How high is the bar?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In terms of proving it for the prosecution? It is extremely high because they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he intentionally killed his son.

HARLOW: And in terms of whether or not you think that prosecution is going to seek the death penalty?

ROBBINS: You know, I think it is hard to say. We have seen in so many cases where the prosecution has overreached from the beginning. Casey Anthony comes to mind immediately. And when I look at this case as much as the facts are gruesome, they all hinge on the prosecution proving beyond a reasonable doubt, Poppy, this pattern of behavior that proves a motive. Because most of us hear a set of facts like this when you say what parent could possibly do this to their kid? And the prosecution, Poppy, is saying well, he wanted a child free life and they are going to say he was doing internet searches on it. He was sexing women while his son was dying in the car. His wife came to the jail afterwards and said did you say too much, you know. And so, they are going to assemble all this together.

HARLOW: And the defense could say he was searching that online to see how to prevent, you know. I mean, what do you think the defense can say to things like that?

ROBBINS: I think there is a very strong defense in this. And the reason why is because you just have to plant the seed of doubt in the minds of the jurors. And jurors are already not going to want to believe that a parent could do this to their kid. And so, here is what a defense could do. What they are going to argue is they are going to argue that this was a mistake. And they were going to argue that the fact that he was so busy leading a double life. He was unhappy in his marriage. He was texting all these women shows that he was distracted. It is actually proof not that he killed his kid intentionally, but that he was so distracted by managing it.

HARLOW: And you remember his wife, Leanna Harris, standing by him I those early days afterwards, you know, saying he was a great father et cetera, even talking about possibly having another child together. But there have been no charges filed against her. Martin talked about it in her story. Do you think we will see her indicted or at this point, we would have seen it?

ROBBINS: I think we would have seen it at this point. But what is an interesting twist is that normally, you have spousal privilege where you do not have to be compelled to testify. But in the state of Georgia, if it is a crime against a child that privilege is out the door. And so, she will be and can be compelled to testify.

I think the worst piece of fact for the defense, Poppy, in this case, is the fact that he got in a car that had an overwhelming stench and drove for miles. That to me shows that he knew the kid was in the car and that is a hard thing for the defense to argue away.

HARLOW: We will all be watching. The world will be watching this one.

ROBBINS: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Mel Robbins, appreciate it. Thank you for coming in. We'll be right back.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Now to this week's CNN hero.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a working class neighborhood. It's difficult for a lot of us to afford fresh produce. We just have corner stores basically. And they don't have a large variety of fresh fruits and vegetables.

CHIP PAILLEX, CNN HERO: These are awesome, aren't they? I started the farm with my daughter. The first year we were able to get 120 pounds of produce. With all the extra produce we brought it down to the local food pantry. I realize people are hungry for fresh food and vegetables. We grow and glean and give. When we first started the program it was basically my family and now we're around 4,000 volunteers.

Excellent!

It's not just feeding people. Our goal is really to educate the folks who receive the produce.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Are you guys ready for some corn?

PAILLEX: When kids come out for the first time from the inner city, they immediately are struck by the fact that food grows out of the ground.

There you go. For them to be able to actually harvest it and bring it home to their

families, that was huge. When is the first time you ate corn off the stalk, look at that? We go to inner city areas and set up a free farm market.

Thank you, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have diabetes and high blood pressure. Some things that I need for my diet a lot of times I can't afford.

PAILLEX: You like this corn? Yes, this is good stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since I've been going to the farmers market, I have lost some weight. My sugar is better controlled. And the food is delicious.

PAILLEX: I believe that everyone deserves to be able to eat healthy. There's no greater reward.

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HARLOW: A really good point, everyone does deserve to eat healthy. Thank you for that and the work that you do.