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Don Lemon Tonight

Interview With Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison; Fighting ISIS; NFL Suspends Ray Rice Indefinitely; Pharrell Williams on Fashion, Politics, Race

Aired September 08, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking at downtown New York, where in just three days, we're going to mark the anniversary of al Qaeda's attacks on September 11.

Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

What incredible pictures you're showing us there, Don.

Tonight, America faces a new terror threat, as we know, from ISIS, more sophisticated and possibly even more brutal than al Qaeda. So what price is President Obama willing to pay to defeat them?

Plus this, the shocking video of football player ray Rice that's prompting some to call for a boycott of the NFL. Ray Rice lost his job with the Ravens today after this video surfaced showing him punching out his fiancee. This was back in February. So what took the league so long to suspend him?

LEMON: And, meanwhile, another NBA owner loses his team over a racially charged e-mail. But is this about color or the color of money?

Also, my exclusive interview with superstar Pharrell Williams, a man with a lot on his mind, including race in America.

But let's begin here in downtown New York tonight. In just a few days, we're in the background of the September 11 Memorial and Ground Zero. And as we prepare to celebrate the -- to remember the 2,753 people who were killed here by al Qaeda 13 years ago this week, President Obama is also using that anniversary to lay out his plan to battle the latest terror threat facing this country, and that's ISIS.

And, clearly, Americans are paying attention; 90 percent in tonight's CNN/ORC poll call ISIS a serious threat to the United States, 90 percent. And it's not just their brutality. It is their businesslike approach it terror that is a concern here.

CNN's Stephanie Elam has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what we're up against, ISIS, the terrorist group that's run like a well-oiled business.

AHMED ALI, INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF WAR: The way ISIS documents its operations shows us that it is a different kind of terrorist organization.

ANDREW LIEPMAN, RAND CORPORATION: They're not just savvy. They're sophisticated. And they learn.

ELAM: Watching this latest ISIS propaganda video is akin to taking in a Hollywood action movie. But the action here is all too real. And the ISIS P.R. machine is constantly making sure the world is aware, the imagery of brutal attacks and beheadings serving as beacons.

ALI: It certainly raises the profile of the organization, and as a result brings more money to the organization, brings more members to the organization, and brings more prestige to the organization.

ELAM: Making the goal of all the publicity clear. ISIS wants to show its dominance and recruit.

ALI: ISIS is competing with other jihadist organizations. And by documenting its actions, it wants to show the superiority that it has on the battlefield.

LIEPMAN: ISIS wants to give the impression that it's winning.

ELAM: Besides videos ISIS also produces massive company reports. This one is 410 pages, all in Arabic and all in an effort to bolster its power.

LIEPMAN: The amount of information that they put out on the number of battles that they have won and the territory they control and sort of their strategic vision of the caliphate, that's new and pretty clever.

ELAM: Other slick graphic digital magazines are in English. Posted on social media sites, the publications are designed to lull disenchanted young Westerners to become jihadists. ISIS has been known to use these foreign fighters as suicide bombers.

ALI: Those youths, when they go to Syria and Iraq, they hone their fighting skills. And they will very likely bring those fighting skills back to their home countries after they're finished fighting.

ISIS wants to market itself as the cool organization that is waging jihad at the moment, and it is using English and social media to propagate its message very effectively.

ELAM: While a dollar amount is unclear, ISIS has money, some of which comes from the oil fields it controls and from private donors.

ALI: ISIS is a rich organization. And it gets its money from extortion. Also, it gets its money by kidnapping and receiving ransom.

ELAM: While ISIS has a cabinet that runs the organization, with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi acting as CEO and president, it also acts like a government, declaring itself a state.

LIEPMAN: It has not only the responsibility to hold the territory that it's gained -- and it's gained a ton of territory -- and it's fighting on four different fronts right now at least.

And that takes a lot of energy, a lot of resources, a lot of manpower, and a lot of money.

ELAM: Power, money, and P.R.

Stephanie Elam, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: All right. So let's talk about these different tactics of ISIS.

Let's bring in CNN military analyst, Major General James "Spider" Marks and also Bob Baer. He's a former CIA operative.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

Bob, let me start with you. You just heard Stephanie Elam's piece about how ISIS is organized differently than any other terrorist organization. They have this sophisticated P.R. arm. They're able to raise money more effectively than other terrorist organizations. So does that make them tougher to defeat?

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Alisyn, absolutely.

They have, for instance, encrypted communications which can't be broken by the National Security Agency. That in itself allows them to get around our best defenses in this country. The question is are they bringing these people in this country? Can they get around police controls in this country? I would say yes.

But, more than that, they are effectively a state of nearly 20 million people, if you look at their area from Aleppo all the way to Mosul in the north. They are holding off the Iraqi army fairly well. They have had some setbacks. But they very equipment. They have a lot of people that know how to fight for them. But more than that, they're attracting adherents across Europe and some from the United States, as we know.

So, they're an organization much more capable and much more effective than al Qaeda ever was.

CAMEROTA: Spider, you heard Bob. He just said that they have had some setbacks. It seems that even though they have all this sophisticated equipment and P.R. arm, when airstrikes are coupled with the Peshmerga, it seems to push them back and in some cases wipe them out of the cities where they had strongholds.

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Alisyn, what you're seeing is the combination of airpower and ground power, which is ultimately the formula that's going to have to be used to defeat ISIS, as we heard the president say today.

So, frankly, airpower by itself is necessary, but not sufficient. Ground power, ultimately, some form of soldiers on the ground, whether they're the United States or coalition soldiers, must be used. And, as Bob pointed out, this is a very well-trained, very well-organized -- very, very well-organized group.

When you realize that the leadership of ISIS, primarily, the military leadership of ISIS came from Saddam Hussein's military, they were aggrieved from the start, they were never really deeply professional, but they were professional soldiers and they brought their skills with them. Many of them spent time in jail following the 2003 invasion.

So these are guys who in many cases have some -- they're aggrieved parties and they have scores they want to settle and they're about the business of doing that.

CAMEROTA: So, Bob, President Obama's going to be addressing the American public on Wednesday, and he gave a little preview of what he's going to be saying.

And he basically talked about how his announcement on Wednesday to the American public will not be that we're putting boots on the ground or that this is going to be some sort of redo of the Iraq war. Let's listen to what the president says he will be saying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not the equivalent of the Iraq war. What this is, is similar to the kinds of counterterrorism campaigns that we have been engaging in consistently over the last five, six, seven years.

What I want people to understand, though, is, is that over the course of months we are going to be able to not just blunt the momentum of ISIL. We are going to systematically degrade their capabilities. We're going to shrink the territory that they control. And ultimately we're going to defeat them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, Bob, you heard the president. This is going to be a continuation of the counterterrorism campaigns that we have been doing for the past five or six years. Is that enough to defeat ISIS?

BAER: Well, I think, to go back to what General Marks said, he's absolutely right. It's more than ISIS we're fighting. We're fighting former Iraqi army officers and enlisted, Sunnis, effectively, that have been cut out of the political system in Baghdad.

Unless we address the political problems in both Syria and Iraq, yes, we can degrade them. Yes, the Air Force can take out all the armor and the rest. I have no doubt about it, and the drones. But we will not solve the problem unless there's a political solution. And in order for that to happen, we need Saudi Arabia, we need the government in Baghdad, and we need Iran to cooperate on this. We simply cannot be supporting a Shia government in Baghdad that's

propped up by Iran. And you have the Islamic Revolutionary Guard force, the Iranian, you know, elite forces fighting in Iraq and expect to win this. We need a political solution, and it's got to involve the Sunnis.

And I haven't heard the president address that, and we will have to wait until Wednesday to see if he will.

LEMON: General, should we read anything into -- is it significant that the president is doing this on the eve of the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks? He could have picked any day. He could have done it today. He could have done it tomorrow. He could have done it next week. Should we read anything into that?

MARKS: Yes, Don, what we should read into it is he should have done it about three months ago. I hate to answer your question and say it's prophetic that he's doing it on 9/11. I would hope that's not the case.

I would hope that the president is saying, quite sincerely, I need to get my act together. I have got to make sure this is straight and I want to make sure I articulate very clearly what it is we're trying to achieve. And this is more than -- what he is stating really needs to be more than what he gave us in terms of a preview.

What he gave us as a preview were four distinct military actions, to blunt, degrade, shrink, and defeat, when really what he needs to say is we need to have a strategy that addresses ungoverned space, what will America and Western powers and peace-loving nations do in order to make sure we can focus in on these ungoverned spaces, so things like this don't occur, because ultimately they always do.

CAMEROTA: Hey, Bob, last, you know, the president sounded more confident than we had heard in some of his recent speeches. He said we are going to do this. Basically, he said make no mistake, we will defeat them. Is there reason for that level of confidence?

BAER: Well, it's not confidence as so much that he's been put in a corner.

I mean, ISIS came out of nowhere six months ago, and none of this was anticipated. So he was blindsided by the intelligence community. He's had to catch up. This ISIS not going away quickly by itself. And so he's had it react to this and he's trying to get in front of the issue. He's got no choice. The Americans -- American people are scared, and they should be.

CAMEROTA: All right, gentlemen, so great to have your expertise, as always, Spider Marks, Bob Baer.

We will see what the president has to say on Wednesday. Thanks, guys.

MARKS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, next, killing in the name of Islam -- why ISIS is so successful getting its fighters, some of them born and raised here, to commit such brutal crimes. And can moderate Muslims help to turn the tide against the extremists?

Also, the shocking video from TMZ Sports that spelled the end of Ray Rice's career with the Ravens today. He was caught on camera knocking out his fiancee. Is it too late to charge him with a crime? Judge Mathis will be here to answer that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. We're live tonight at New York's World Trade Center.

As ISIS conducts its bloody rampage across parts of Iraq and Syria, it is doing so under the banner of Islam, and its leader has proclaimed himself caliph, demanding allegiance from all Muslims around the world.

So let's talk about this with Congressman Keith Ellison. He's a Democrat of Minnesota. And also Reza Aslan is a professor at the University of California, Riverside, and the author of "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth."

Thank you both, gentlemen, for joining us tonight.

Congressman, I want to start with you. Your entire term as a congressman, the United States has been struggling against enemies in the Middle East, often Islamic radicals. How do you feel about ISIS and their brand of Islam?

REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: Well, I think the only thing Islamic about ISIS is its name.

They do a number of things that are fundamentally anti-Islamic, murdering innocent people, lying, deceiving people, burning crops, abusing innocent people, abusing minority -- religious minorities. All this is antithetical to what Islam is -- stands for.

And so I think that they're exploiting religion in order to recruit. And so we have got to be very, very effective at demonstrating that what ISIS stands for is not Islam, but a very ugly perversion which must be rejected and confronted.

LEMON: And before we move on here, I want to know, what do you expect to hear from the president later this week and how should he handle this?

ELLISON: Well, you know, I think the president has been very clear.

What we -- ISIS has been exploiting grievance of the Sunni population in Iraq. And the goal has got to be to have an inclusive government, so that the Sunni population feels that it is participating in the governance of Iraq, that they're not subjected to abuse and state violence like they were under Nouri al-Maliki, and that they're cut into oil profits and the benefits of the country. I think that's the real goal. And that actually, in my view, Don, is

related to the problem here, because, as ISIS has tried to exploit grievance in Iraq, they have tried to exploit grievance outside of Iraq by trying to go to Muslims who don't know much about Islam and say, hey, you know, join us because we will -- you can stand for the faith and -- if you're part of what we're doing. And both are lies.

LEMON: OK.

I want to get Reza.

Reza, what's your response to that? How should the president handle this, handle ISIS?

REZA ASLAN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, RIVERSIDE: Well, I think from what we understand about what the president's going to say, the threefold structure of his plan of attack is the right one.

Number one, you do have to respond militarily to ISIS soldiers and fighters. These guys are fighting a war of the imagination, a war that they think is happening between the forces of good and evil. There is no negotiation. There's no diplomacy. There's nothing to talk about with these guys. They have to be destroyed.

But the congressman is absolutely right. What makes ISIS so powerful and potent is that they have managed to use grievances that a lot of Iraqis have, that a lot of Syrians have, frankly, that a lot of Muslims around the world have had, to draw people to their cause.

And unless those grievances can be addressed, the appeal of a group like ISIS isn't going to work. And then, finally, of course, you have got to deal with the mess in Syria eventually.

LEMON: And neither of you -- you know this. Both of you know that -- you're both not strangers to the argument that Islam is a violent religion.

I want you to listen to what Bill Maher tweeted in his response to the recent ISIS beheading videos. Here's what he says. He says: "ISIS, one of thousands of Islamic militant groups" -- and that's -- he was addressing "The New York Times" -- he says "beheads another? But why -- by all means, let's keep pretending all religions are alike."

What's your response to that?

ASLAN: Well, Islam isn't a violent religion or a peaceful religion. It's just a religion.

And like all religions, it is absolutely dependent on the interpretation of whomever follows it.

LEMON: But I think it's interesting that you say it's not a peaceful religion, because most Muslims will say that Islam is a peaceful religion.

ASLAN: I completely understand why most people of faith, regardless of the faith, think that the radicals and extremists within their faith are not really Jews, are not really Christians, are not really Muslims.

But the fact of the matter is, is a Muslim is whoever says he's a Muslim. A Jew is whoever says he's a Jew. The problem, however, is when we take the actions of an infinitesimal group and make it somehow predictive of the actions of everyone else, 1.6 billion Muslims in this case, that's when the argument becomes completely strained and unbelievable.

But the fact of the matter is, if you're a violent, war-mongering person, you can find justification in any scripture. If you're a peaceful, pluralistic person, you can find justification for your views in the exact same scriptures.

LEMON: Congressman, what do you make of what Bill Maher tweeted?

ELLISON: Well, you know, I think that it's not just religion. It goes beyond that.

I mean, look, Stalin was atheist, and he found a way to kill people to advance his ideology, Pol Pot the same way. The fact is, whenever you have an ideology, whether it's secular or religious, and you're willing to kill and murder other people to impose it on them, you're dangerous, and you're a problem.

And so I think that -- you know, I think Bill Maher certainly is an entertaining guy, and I think he brings a lot to the public debate, but there's no doubt that he has a certain perspective on religion. I just think that it's broader than religion. I think it has to do with ideology and those who are willing to kill to impose it on other people.

LEMON: Is the burden on other Muslim nations, you think, and moderate Muslims to reject ISIS and to join the fight against ISIS? Is that what's happening?

ASLAN: Well, first of all, the voice of rejection from organizations and individuals across the Muslim world is absolutely deafening. If anybody thinks that Muslims are not denouncing ISIS, do a Google search and that shall answer your question.

The larger point, however, is nation-states, Muslim-majority nation- states like Turkey, like Qatar, like Kuwait, who -- and Saudi Arabia -- who for reasons of their own national security interests have not done enough to combat extremist groups like ISIS, because they feel in one way or another that these groups promote their interests in some way.

That's got to change. That's not a religious thing. It's just what nation-states do.

LEMON: Yes, but how do you do that? How do you do that?

ASLAN: To remind them that these groups are as dangerous to them as to anyone else. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Congressman?

ASLAN: Yes, Congressman.

ELLISON: I was going to say, let's not forget that this ISIS sort of emerges out of Syria, which is a failed state. And there is this proxy war going on between different sects of Islam there.

And that -- we have got to address the problem in Syria sooner or later. We have got to come as an international community to try to bring a cessation of violence there, because that's one of the problems with these failed states. Whether it's Syria, Somalia, or anywhere, it allows real bad things to germinate.

And that political crisis has got to be solved in order to squeeze on ISIS as well. I think some of those states thought their interests might be vindicated by supporting certain elements. Now it's clear that that is a Frankenstein monster.

LEMON: Congressman, thank you very much. Reza Aslan, thank you as well.

ELLISON: Thanks, Don. Thank you.

LEMON: We appreciate it.

ELLISON: Thanks for having us.

LEMON: When we come right back, the Baltimore Ravens fire running back -- you're quite welcome -- thanks again -- fire running back Ray Rice after the release of a video from TMZ Sports showing him punching and knocking out a woman who is now his wife. Is he paying enough of a price?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The Baltimore Ravens fired running back Ray Rice today after a shocking video surfaced from TMZ Sports.

Months after we first learned that Rice had apparently attacked his fiancee, the entire assault came to light on video today. We're going to show it to you so you can see the full extent of the violence and the aftermath, though it is pretty sickening to watch.

It shows Rice punching Janay Palmer, then his fiancee, now his wife. He punched her, as you can see right there. This was in an elevator. This happened back in February. He knocked her out cold. Then, instead of getting help, he dragged her unconscious body into a hotel lobby.

The White House released a statement tonight, saying: "The president is the father of two daughters, and, like any American, he believes that domestic violence is contemptible and unacceptable in a civilized society. Hitting a woman is not something a real man does, and that's true whether or not an act of violence happens in the public eye or, far too often, behind closed doors. Stopping domestic violence is something that's bigger than football and all of us have a responsibility to put a stop to it."

So how do we do that?

We're joined by Judge Greg Mathis. He's host of "Judge Mathis," now in its 16th season.

Judge, great to have you here.

JUDGE GREG MATHIS, HOST, "JUDGE MATHIS": Thanks for having me, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Now that the full picture has come to light of what happened inside that elevator, can't police charge him with a crime and can't he get some sort of jail sentence?

MATHIS: Yes. Unfortunately, state police cannot.

The only way I can see that happening is they feel that that is a violation of the deferred sentence that he received. And I'm not sure how they could do that. I haven't seen the sentence. But he could be prosecuted on the federal level, if they could find a nexus.

CAMEROTA: But you're saying that state police cannot charge him, because he already agreed to this diversionary program, whereby what? He takes some anger management classes instead of going to jail?

MATHIS: That's my understanding of it. And I think it may be a probationary period or a community service of some sort. But yes, it's been adjudicated. It's been adjudicated.

CAMEROTA: But it hasn't really been adjudicated, because he basically -- he doesn't ever have to serve any jail time. It gets expunged from his record if, for a year, he goes to these classes. It seems like less than a slap on the wrist for what we've now seen in this video.

MATHIS: Yes. Now that we've seen him engage in such a horrendous act. I would think the prosecutors may have had access to that tape. If they had access to the earlier portion of the tape, why wouldn't they have had all of the tape? And had they seen this, I would hate that they would have allowed him to escape with such a slap on the wrist.

CAMEROTA: How do you explain it? I mean, because look, if prosecutors are doing their job, they had to have seen that whole tape. What we in the public saw before today was something happened in that elevator, because he was dragging her lifeless body out of the elevator. In fact, maybe we can see the aftermath of this. Again, he treats her like a sack of potatoes. First he punches her. Then she's lying, as you can see, in the elevator.

He's basically kicking her, yanking her, tugging her. He's not trying to help her. He's not trying to revive her. He's not panicking. He's not going for help. This shows so much more contempt. MATHIS: Yes. And he could have carried her. He carries 300 pounds

of weights every day in the gym.

CAMEROTA: Exactly.

MATHIS: He could have picked her up, for sure.

CAMEROTA: So how could prosecutors not have -- why do you think prosecutors didn't try to prosecute him for assault?

MATHIS: Yes. Well, one, I'm told that she did not want to cooperate. However, you don't need the cooperation of a woman in a domestic violence dispute in most states. You can use the evidence that you have.

And sometimes it's the evidence that the police might observe when they arrive on the scene. They observe something. In this case they had evidence such as the tape. And that could have been used.

So I don't know if this was celebrity justice or not. Maybe it's the same type of celebrity justice that some of our starlets have received in Hollywood. We've seen some other athletes receive celebrity justice.

CAMEROTA: It must be. Because we often hear, well, the woman didn't press charges. But particularly when you have a videotape like this, that's all you need, I would think.

Here's what Ray Rice had to say about this whole -- he's now acting more contrite than we saw him on that video. And he is talking about how he will have to explain himself in the future to his daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY RICE, NFL PLAYER: What happened that night was something that should have never happened. And you know, like I said, I have to pay for that for the rest of my life, because my daughter is very intelligent, you know, and she's going to want to know what happened, because she's going to press Google one day. And just how fast these -- how fast this message is going to go worldwide, that's how fast my daughter's going to be able to pick up the phone and Google her father's name, and the first thing that's going to come up is not how many touchdowns I scored. It's going to come up about what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So Judge, how does he explain this to his daughter?

MATHIS: Well, he must tell her that he had an issue mentally, quite frankly. That's the best he could explain it to her.

And quite frankly, I believe many men who are engaged in domestic violence and violence at all have some mental problems. In fact, nearly 1/3 of all prisoners who engage in violence have some history of mental problems. Whether it's bipolar disorder, defiance disorder, ADHD. A lot of this is mental. And mental illness. And in this case I don't know whether it's that or whether it's the

culture of violence that he grew up in. The misogynist, chauvinistic environment that we see every day, we hear in our rap music, we see in Appalachia. It's all drug and alcohol and mentally and culturally induced. So hopefully he can make some sense of it telling his daughter that.

CAMEROTA: If he was in your courtroom, would you have sentenced him to jail?

MATHIS: Yes, I would. After having seen the video, yes. Seen the video, yes. But I'm a judge of second chances, but you'll have to take your punishment first, and then I'll help you out.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Judge Mathis, stick around. Because when we come back we'll explore how the NFL's handled Ray Rice and where they've gone wrong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Welcome back, everyone.

In the wake of star running back Ray Rice's indefinite suspension from the NFL, many are wondering just what the league knew and when the league knew it.

Joining us now is Van Jones, host of CROSSFIRE; also Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst; Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator; and Judge Greg Mathis is back with us as well. Good to have all of you.

Van, I'm going to start with you. Is anything short of a ban for life acceptable at this point?

VAN JONES, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": You know, it's probably not. I think that in these situations you've got two things you're trying to do. One is you want to make sure the person has a chance to rehabilitate themselves. You want to make sure the person has a second chance. But you also need to send a clear signal and make sure that there's a reasonable punishment.

It wasn't only the blow. It was the total contempt and lack of any demonstrable concern after the blow that really, I think, takes him outside of any kind of category of somebody you want to see back on the football field and representing the league.

LEMON: Oh, my gosh. You know, I can't even watch that video. When I see it on the monitor, I turn away. It is horrific to watch, Mel. I'm sure you will agree. And this woman is getting hit -- actually brutally assaulted on camera. But we know that she -- that Janay Palmer was Rice's fiancee then when that assault happened. But then she went on to marry him. I mean, does she have a responsibility in this case? Is it battered woman's syndrome, as many say?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR: You know, I think we have a responsibility, Don. It's a valid question. A lot of people are asking it. But let's set the record straight. All eyes should be on Ray Rice, not on Janay. She's a freaking victim here.

And when it comes to domestic violence, all too often not only does society blame the victim but she blames herself.

And there's lots of reasons why Janay might have walked back on how serious this was. For example, she loves him. Secondly, she's probably worried about the repercussions. Third, she probably feels on some level, because this is clearly not a healthy relationship, that she is to blame, Don.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I agree with 90 percent of that. The only thing I would disagree with...

LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: The only thing I would disagree is the idea -- because Mel's right. Eyes should not be on her. But I don't think all eyes should be on Ray Rice here. I think eyes should also be on the Ravens, and they should also be on the NFL. Because, you know, when that press conference...

LEMON: The league.

HILL: Yes. Because when that press conference came out, and they had her sit there and apologize for the role that she played in this, they were also blaming the victim. When the NFL made a decision to either not look at a tape, which I don't believe, but if they made a decision to not look at a tape and still dole out this punishment, it's irresponsible. And if they looked at the tape it's dishonest and irresponsible, to look at that tape and conclude that this only warranted a two-game suspension, despite what they've done more recently. Now they're caving to pressure, not principle.

I think there's a lot of blame to go around, but none of it should go to her.

CAMEROTA: Don, we have a little bit of breaking news here about that very thing because Harvey Levin, he's the founder of TMZ. That's who obtained this elevator video, and they are just announcing tonight that tomorrow morning they say that they're going to release a bombshell. They claim that they have evidence that the NFL did know about this elevator video and that they did see this elevator video.

Judge Mathis, I want to bring you in. If that's true, what happens to Roger Goodell, the commissioner of the NFL?

MATHIS: Well, if he knew of it, I think that he's part of this -- what someone -- some might refer to as a cover-up, or trying to minimize the damage that was done both to this woman and that we know that the NFL would need to have addressed, covering it up for the benefit of the NFL, for the benefit of one of his players.

But in addition to that, we're talking about responsibility. I haven't heard much responsibility attributed to the prosecutor in this case and the court. You know, after all, he received a smack on the wrist. And did they see the video? Or is it enough of -- evidence that what they did see should have resulted in more harsh punishment rather than this smack-on-the-wrist plea bargain?

LEMON: Well, here's what -- here's what they said, the league said. The league said -- I want to get the league's statement here, because I think it's important since we're saying TMZ is going to say the league knew about this. They say, "We requested from law enforcement any and all information about the incident, including the video from inside the elevator. That video was not made available to us, and no one in our office has seen it until today."

So if indeed this comes out -- again, it is a bombshell, as Alisyn said, as Harvey Levin is going to say -- tomorrow, but what might be the evidence that they saw it? Is it evidence from law enforcement? I mean, Judge, what can make a difference in this particular instance?

MATHIS: Well, if you have testimony from an insider, from the NFL office, someone else in the league, perhaps some communications that has been established through e-mail. We know how e-mails are floating around these days establishing culpability. So those instances.

But in terms of the justice system, once again, making reference to their responsibility, their duty, if they've seen it, if they saw the video and failed to act on it in an appropriate manner, they should be held accountable, as well.

LEMON: Marc, what happens to the league, though? If this is indeed true. That's going to -- that's for the league. I mean, how can you -- if they say they didn't see it and there's evidence that they did see it, this is not good news for the league. I don't know how they would handle that. How they'd recover from it.

HILL: Well, recovering would be difficult. This would be a major crisis. This would make Donald Sterling look like small potatoes. Because in Donald Sterling's case, you had a rogue actor who was being policed by a league that we still have a fundamental sense of trust in.

But if the people who are supposed to be policing the bad guys, in this case the NFL, the owners, and of course the commissioner, are also bad actors, they're also acting in bad faith, and they also cannot be trusted, then we have no faith in the league itself.

Roger Goodell should resign at 9:01 tomorrow morning. I thought that before I heard this, and before Alisyn gave this breaking news bit, I said I didn't believe it. It smelled bad all day. It's obvious that the NFL has been lying about this. I guarantee you there's going to be some written communication that proves that they saw the video. And Roger Goodell must resign. And the NFL must spend the next God knows how many years trying recover a whole lot of damage.

CAMEROTA: You know what -- you know what's interesting, Van, is that if the NFL says, "Well, we didn't see it," so -- let me be very clear that Harvey Levin says that they're going to release NFL tomorrow morning that the NFL knew about this video. So if the NFL and Roger Goodell sort of were willfully blind to demanding to see this video, does that change anything? JONES: Well, I think we have to see what they have tomorrow. But

here's the reality. They were very strong. They said they did not see it, they had no access to it. If it turns out that's not true, this is a nuclear bombshell. This is going to be -- heads will be rolling.

We're speculating right now about tomorrow. Here's what we ought to speculate about. Sixty-two percent of all African-American women who are killed are killed by someone they know. Ninety-two percent of the time in those situations it is a boyfriend, a husband, or an ex-lover of some kind. So this is a very serious problem. It goes beyond just this one incident. This is a very serious problem.

LEMON: Yes.

JONES: For women. For women of color. And we've got to make sure, even as we try to figure out what we don't know. What we do know is this has to be taken much more seriously.

MATHIS: Yes. And I think it really does...

LEMON: Judge, Van, Mel, Marc, thank you very much. We've got to run. I appreciate it. I'm sorry. We didn't even get to our other story. We talked about the NFL. We didn't even get to the NBA. So there's a lot to talk about. Thank you all.

You know, it is Fashion Week right here in New York, which means glamour, celebrity, and style.

And when the whole world claps along and knows the lyrics to your tune, you should be the one who is happy. Megastar Pharrell joins me next. Exclusively. Talking about everything from his fashion line to the events in Ferguson, Missouri. We'll be right back.

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LEMON: Pharrell has some provocative things to say about race. We're going to get reaction to all of that in our next hour. But I want to tell you, I'm here in New York's World Trade Center, rising from really the rubble of Ground Zero, 13 years after the September 11th attacks.

And a big part of the revival here in downtown New York is the fashion industry. And Pharrell Williams is making his mark in the business just like he has in music. I spoke with him not far from here on Wall Street during Fashion Week, and he had a lot on his mind, including race in America.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Good to see all of you. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You guys are in a big project together, right? With G-Star. We're going to talk about all of that and get to the important things. We're talking about consciousness here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LEMON: But we're in the middle of New York city. It's Fashion Week. You've got this big fashion, new fashion line coming out. But again, I want to talk to you about consciousness. I know that you are socially conscious. I don't know if I would call you political, but you're definitely outspoken.

PHARRELL WILLIAMS, MUSICIAN: Yes, I don't like -- I'm not into politics. I have opinions.

LEMON: So what did you -- what did you think of Ferguson and what you saw going down there?

WILLIAMS: Don, Don, Don. What did I think of Ferguson?

LEMON: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I'm disappointed.

LEMON: Because?

WILLIAMS: I'm disappointed in the way that, like, it was handled from a -- from the government side. I think that that officer should be punished, because that was excessive force. That was excessive force. You know, all those shots, where those shots were. The idea that that child laid on the ground -- he's a child. I know he's 6'2", 6'3", something like that, but he's a child. OK? And he was laying on the ground for hours.

That kid didn't ask to get killed. And so I feel like that officer should be punished. But then, like, at the same time, like, we've got to start looking at ourselves, too, because we are feeling hunted, and we need to be able to avoid these things. And sometimes it's unavoidable.

LEMON: Did you see this whole -- there's a whole Facebook campaign about -- you're a jean designer. About pulling up your pants. Like don't give the -- don't give The Man one more thing to go after you.

WILLIAMS: That ain't the -- who is The Man? Who is The Man to tell me how I can wear my pants? Can't nobody tell me how I can wear my pants. I'm a human being.

That's the thing. We need to -- there are so many issues that keep being lump summed in the same issues. Wearing your jeans on your butt or below your waistline has nothing to do with being black. Do you know how many white kids do that?

LEMON: Justin Bieber. They all do it.

WILLIAMS: OK. So then that's not a black or white thing. Hoodies are not a black or white thing. It's an excuse. So in certain places yes, we're being hunted. But there are good policemen and there are bad policemen, and there are good kids and there are bad kids. Regardless to what that child was, he did not deserve to be shot down like that. LEMON: What do you mean? How do you avoid that?

WILLIAMS: When they told him to get out of the road, he probably should have got out of the road. I wouldn't have been in the road to begin with, though.

But look, let me make it very clear, because people like to sound bite in this day and age, right? This is the day and age of sound biting. I love my culture. But I don't want -- I don't want my culture to want nothing from nobody else. I think we can do what we need to do ourselves.

And the only thing is I was disappointed that, like, while we had so much peaceful protesting going on, what the media chose to cover most of all and highlight was the random few people that threw Molotov cocktails, the random people that had guns on them, the random incidents where -- not random really, actually. Motivated but like some of the rioting that was going on and some of the looting of the stores. And the looting of the stores in our own neighborhoods. I'm not telling you to do it nowhere else, but damn, why are you doing it in your own neighborhood? I didn't get that neither.

LEMON: But see, the cameras are drawn to where the action is. And I completely agree with you. That's why we also focused on volunteers and people who were doing good things.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but we've got to -- we've got to spend more time on the people that were doing -- that was non-violent like protesting, which is allowed in this country.

LEMON: Agreed.

WILLIAMS: We didn't spend enough time on that. That's why I feel like -- that's where I feel like the president needs to come down.

LEMON: I was going to ask you, do you think -- what do you think...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I think he needs to come down there. Because when your parents come in the room, whether it's you or your cousin that knocked the vase down, both of you all sit up at attention and everybody, as my dad would say, tighten up.

LEMON: So even now, after it's been a few weeks, you still think he should go down there?

WILLIAMS: This is a deeper laceration in this country. If you think that this is going to blow over, this is going to be the longest hangover in race relations ever. Want to know why?

Because we thought we had gotten so far but now there are certain people that are like man, they shouldn't put a tape out of him being in the store, this, that, and the other. That ain't got nothing to do with the crime. You're absolutely right. But I come from a black family that, like, my grandma would have said,

but let me see that other tape, too. And you would get a beating for that.

LEMON: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Because no stones are left unturned. No "T's are not crossed. No "I's" are not dotted. That's the kind of pride that we have in our culture that doesn't get enough light on television. Because if you ask the right person, if you ask the right person, or like Bill Cosby, because I rock with Bill.

LEMON: I love Bill.

WILLIAMS: Bill is really smart. And people have opinions on Bill. But Bill got a lot of money. Bill got more money than everybody.

LEMON: So you realize, as you said, this is the era of the sound bite, where people take one sound bite out of context and all of a sudden you become...

WILLIAMS: They do.

LEMON: I'm trying to explain. You said to Oprah that the new black didn't -- correct me if I'm wrong. That you didn't rely on pigmentation or blame pigmentation. It was about the expansion of your mind.

WILLIAMS: Yes. And we also don't rely on other people. We're going to do it ourselves.

LEMON: You got a lot of criticism for that.

WILLIAMS: I did.

LEMON: And do you care?

WILLIAMS: I'm black, man. My dad is -- my dad is pretty dark- skinned. My grandma was pretty brown-skinned. You know? I'm not confused about what I am and what I love and what I stand for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Pharrell had some provocative things, as you heard, to say about race. We're going to get reaction to that in our next hour. We're also going to have a lot more from our exclusive interview including what he is doing to save the planet. That's coming up. You don't want to miss it.

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