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Amanpour

Battle Plan to Destroy ISIS; The Invictus Games; Imagine a World

Aired September 10, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: President Obama lays out his plan to defeat ISIS. Why top diplomats tell me we are all in

the terrorist crosshairs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN CROCKER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: If we don't think we're on their target list, we are delusional. They don't need to get a visa.

They just need to get on a plane.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): And wounded in war but not in spirit, united in sacrifice and sport at the start of the Invictus Games right here in

London.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

In a major address tonight, President Obama will lay out to the American people and the world his strategy for fighting ISIS in Iraq and in

Syria. Secretary of State John Kerry is visiting Baghdad and regional allies to drum up an international coalition against this mortal threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: There is literally no place for their barbarity in the modern world. And this is a fight that the Iraqi people

must win, but it's also a fight that the rest of the world needs to win with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And in a dramatic turnaround, the war-weary American public are solidly on board; a new CNN poll finds that three-quarters of Americans

support airstrikes in Iraq and in Syria.

Today I spoke with two veteran American diplomats who know the region in all its dangerous complexity better than just about anyone.

Ryan Crocker was U.S. ambassador to Syria and to Iraq and Robert Ford was U.S. ambassador to Syria until he quit earlier this year, no longer

able to support what was then the Obama administration's hands-off policy as the Syria war left 200,000 dead, millions displaced and ultimately led

to the rise of ISIS.

I asked both what they hoped to hear from the president now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Robert Ford, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, welcome to the program and thank you for joining me tonight.

Can I start directly with you, Ambassador Crocker?

You have said that our national security is at stake right now.

President Obama famously said there is no strategy yet -- that was two weeks ago.

Are you confident that his speech will deliver a coherent strategy?

CROCKER: His speech Wednesday night has to lay out the broad lines of what that strategy is going to be. What the president has to say Wednesday

night is we're all in; we are in with a coalition that we will lead and we are going to stick with it as long as it takes.

My phrase is "strategic patience." And I'm happy to hear them say this may take several years.

But we are fighting a mortal enemy, an existential enemy. We win or we pay.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Ford, you have said Syria is the president's biggest failure.

Do you think that he gets it now?

Do you think that he is completely and utterly on board for this long strategic patience that Ambassador Crocker is advising?

ROBERT FORD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ALGERIA: Seems to me that the administration is more aware now of how the problems in Iraq and the

problems in Syria are linked together, more than, say, a year or two ago. And I think that's very positive.

And I'm impressed that they're looking at it in a very holistic way, involving diplomatic efforts, efforts to cut money flows as well as

military operations, that it's not only a military problem but it's also one that is going to require efforts on multiple tracks.

AMANPOUR: Let me play this little snippet of an interview I did with Iraq's new deputy prime minister, who is well known to you all. He was the

former foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOSHYAR ZEBARI, IRAQI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: I think they're on the run, on the defensive. And with the increased international support

coming, and I think they could be defeated, at least here in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROCKER: Christiane, I think they can be defeated. I certainly do not think they are on the verge of defeat. Hoshyar Zebari is a great Iraqi

patriot.

But he's always been optimistic. We are certainly not there yet and it is going to take a huge effort on our part, on the part of coalition

partners and on the part of the Iraqis to bring them to the point of degradation and defeat. We are nowhere near that yet.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe the president is ready to strike bases inside Syria as well?

We understand, quote, that he's "open" to moving this battle against ISIS into Syria.

Will it happen?

Must it happen?

FORD: I don't see how one can defeat the Islamic State without dealing with its vast operational space that it controls, that it uses

rests, regroups, plans, organizes. It's of all those things in a vast space that it controls inside Syria.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you both about Assad.

You know, at the beginning of this conflict, it was, "Assad must go." Almost exactly a year ago, it was, "Assad has crossed a red line." The

president was getting prepared to bring the American people on board for an attack against Assad.

Now it's, "Assad is not our priority." That is President Obama's own words.

So what do you both think?

Should Assad be enjoined into the U.S. and coalition fight against ISIS?

Should he be informed?

Ambassador Ford?

FORD: I personally don't see how Assad is going to help us very much against the Islamic State. The Islamic State has defeated Assad's forces

in Eastern Syria largely. There's one air base holding out against the Islamic state. They have totally been defeated in the central part of the

country by the Islamic State.

And Assad's forces are growing tired. They just don't have the bodies. They don't have the manpower to retake Central and Eastern Syria.

So I don't see in an operational sense how he's going to help. And politically, it's very damaging with our regional friends, countries like

Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Crocker, you had maybe six months or eight months ago suggested that maybe Assad should be part of some kind of

pragmatic deal against ISIS.

You don't agree with that position you had anymore. You've reversed yourself.

CROCKER: Christiane, circumstances change. We have an existential enemy. And what I have argued recently is we need to fight that enemy

wherever we can find him, in Iraq and in Syria. He cannot have a safe haven in Syria.

AMANPOUR: Can I just look back a little bit?

You know, for the last several years -- and, Ambassador Ford, you know this very well -- many top opinion makers, people like Tom Friedman from

"The New York Times" and others -- and President Obama himself -- basically dismissed as a fantasy the notion that arming and training the moderate

opposition, the Free Syrian Army, could have made any difference.

And yet now President Obama is about to outline that very strategy.

Was that denial or was that attitude partly responsible for the rise of ISIS or the enabling of ISIS to fill the space?

FORD: I think it absolutely was. Had they been better equipped, the moderate elements, say, in 2012-2013, sure, it would have helped.

But the real question to me is going forward. Going forward, I hope that it is clear to everyone that the purpose of aiding the moderate armed

opposition elements -- and they are very much in the field and they are very much fighting today -- is not to topple the regime. It's never been

to topple the regime.

I don't think we've ever in the United States government said we're aiming to topple the Assad regime. We have always said that we want to get

to a negotiation.

And I was with Secretary Kerry in Geneva and the moderate opposition put forward a proposal in February -- it didn't even require Assad to leave

as an opening negotiating position.

The regime, the Assad regime refused even to discuss it.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Crocker, you know, President Obama has been very clear about no boots on the ground.

But you have said that they actually do need to put more military forces on the ground, more special forces.

CROCKER: We need to get special forces advisers in everywhere we can, in Iraq and, when conditions permit, in Syria. They are advisers. They

are not combat elements, although they certainly know how to take care of themselves.

And I would just say one other thing, it's all about American leadership. Either we assert it now or we don't win this fight.

And I would disagree with Ambassador Ford -- I'm trying to find something to disagree with him about -- the President of the United States

back in 2011 said, "Assad must go." He didn't talk about a negotiation; he didn't talk about a compromise. He simply said, "Assad must go."

Well, Assad wasn't going. He is weakened; he still isn't going.

AMANPOUR: You have called the Islamic State Al Qaeda 6.0. Secretary Hagel has said the Islamic State is the worst thing we've ever confronted.

Is it really that much worse than Al Qaeda, that committed 9/11 13 years ago almost to the day?

CROCKER: Christiane, if you're -- if you're asking me, yes. They are more numerous. They are better armed. They are far better financed. They

are better experienced. And perhaps most critically, there are several thousand of them who hold Western passports, including American passports.

They don't need to get a visa. They just need to get on a plane. And as I have said, if we don't think we're on their target list, we are

delusional.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask both of you -- Ambassador Crocker is on the record, saying that on no account should we be getting any cooperation from

Iran or anything like that.

On the other hand, it is apparently established wisdom that the Iranian forces have actually been helping the disarrayed Iraqi forces

against ISIS in Iraq. Their pictures of the Quds Force commander on the ground and recent news that Iran's Supreme Leader had given some kind of

approval to, you know, a general "all work together" on this.

Ambassador Crocker, you don't agree that Iran should be in the fight against ISIS.

Do you, Ambassador Ford?

First to you, Ambassador Crocker.

CROCKER: Christiane, no one understands better than you how complex all of this is. Right now our most critical fight, I think, is inside Iraq

and it isn't against ISIS. It is the effort that both Robert and I have referred to of helping the Iraqis form an inclusive government that will

stand together against a common enemy.

The worst thing we could do right now as they still struggle through this is to look as though we are supporting Iran and Iran's surrogates

inside Iraq. That will send the Sunnis completely in the wrong direction. And if we do not have a government of national unity in the true sense

inside Iraq, none of the rest of this is going to work.

When I see Qasem Soleimani, the head of the Iranian Quds Force inside Iraq for prolonged periods, it's clear to me that we are working at cross-

purposes because, I can tell you, whether it's nuclear negotiations, whether it's anything else to do in region with Afghanistan or with Iraq or

bilaterally, Qasem Soleimani is our foe.

FORD: Oh, I totally agree for two reasons, Christiane. The Iranians are promoting the use of Iraqi undisciplined Shia militias, which are

themselves guilty of sectarian killings.

The second reason that I think that we really can't do much with Iran is that their strategic goal in Syria is to maintain Bashar al-Assad. But

it's pretty clear that the continued survival of the Assad regime has both directly and indirectly helped the Islamic State.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you both about American leadership?

President Obama has been interestingly reflective, recently talking about Libya. He basically said it's one of his biggest foreign policy

regrets, that it wasn't -- that instead of just an Air Force to topple Gadhafi, there wasn't an organized U.S.-led plan, a strategic plan for

post-getting rid of Gadhafi.

CROCKER: You used the critical word: leadership. The president has to decide and has to say it tomorrow night that he is going to lead and he

is going to lead for the long term, that he is not going it alone but that he is leading a coalition that has to be international and it has to be

regional, but that he is leader and that he is all in.

He was not all in in Libya. He has said that he is ending wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well, actually, Christiane -- and you know it better

after what you've been through -- you don't end a war by walking off the battlefield and leaving it to your enemies.

Nothing good is going to happen in Iraq, in Syria and in the region without American leadership and, in our system, that means presidential

leadership.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Ryan Crocker, Ambassador Robert Ford, thank you both very much for joining me.

FORD: Thank you.

CROCKER: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And as we await President Obama's speech, of course when leaders issue orders, even in this push-button age of drone warfare,

someone usually ends up doing the fighting and the bleeding.

What if those wounded warriors could find a different kind of arena, where they can compete peacefully with others who share their scars?

By royal command, they're getting that arena, London's Olympic Stadium -- next.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

As President Obama lays out his plan to fight ISIS, a reminder of the human cost of war. Many of the men and women, veterans of the Iraq and

Afghan Wars, are taking part in the first international sporting event for wounded soldiers, a Paralympic-style competition here in London with more

than 400 wounded warriors competing. It is the brainchild of Britain's Prince Harry, himself an Afghan War veteran. And they're called the

Invictus Games, meaning "unconquered."

It might seem an odd subject for the managing editor of the "Financial Times" in the United States to write about it, but Gillian Tett has, as

she's done so passionately, and she joins me now from New York.

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AMANPOUR: Gillian, welcome back to our program.

GILLIAN TETT, "FINANCIAL TIMES": Well, thank for having me on, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: And why?

Why the Invictus Games?

What struck you enough to write about it?

TETT: Well, basically, it's a story that cuts to the core of a key issue that affects Western world today in terms of the military adventures,

which is that the Iraq and Afghan Wars have created 1 million -- that's 1 million wounded veterans and out of that about 50,000 are thought to have

polytraumas, i.e., serious injuries.

And never before in history have military conflicts created so many wounded veterans because, in the past, if you like, the good news is that

people wouldn't survive battlefield wounds. But the bad news is that these people are essentially now back in society, needing to find a way to

contribute and find their place in the world.

And governments and military organizations are under pressure to respond.

AMANPOUR: It's quite extraordinary that -- I mean, yes, we know this; you pointed this out. But why and how did it come into a practically, you

know Olympic Game kind of scenario?

TETT: Well, this Invictus Games is building on a trial project that was done in America last year that was very successful, again, using

wounded veterans to actually compete in sport.

But the backstory is that the organizers of the Olympics and other sporting contests have realized that actually there's a huge appetite

amongst the public and amongst the media industry to actually covered these types of events.

I mean, one of the great moments of realization occurred last couple of years ago with the Olympics in London, when the media companies realized

that not only were the public tuning in to watch the actual Olympics, the official Olympics, but the Paralympics, too.

And the reason is that actually often the Paralympics have better human interest stories. They're more real. They're less commercial.

They're less caught up in the whole game of false advertising these days.

And people love it. And so essentially what's happened here has been a match between the needs of the military to find a way of actually

engaging with wounded veterans and if you like the incorporating commercial reality of sports today.

AMANPOUR: Let's talk about commerce from a different perspective. Let's talk about the dollars and cents of going to war and then crucially

treating and caring for those veterans who come back wounded. There have, as you very well know and we've all reported, been terrible scandals at the

American Veterans Administration and some over here as well.

Give us a sense of how under pressure are governments to take care of their wounded warriors coming home.

TETT: Well, tragically, throwing these Invictus Games is really just the tip of an iceberg of a much bigger problem that governments in America

and Europe are trying to address, which is the sheer scale of wounded veterans now coming back home and needing to be treated not just for a few

weeks or a few months but years. And needing to be treated not just in terms of their physical injuries, but their mental injuries, too.

And the type of scandals we've seen unfold in America in relation to the veterans' hospitals shows just what terrible pressure there is now on

resources. Frankly, the Western military and commanders did not expect the scale of wounded veterans to emerge; they're not prepared and governments

are still grappling for response.

So I hope that the Invictus Games actually draws attention to the very real issue. But what's needed now is not just a lot of applause at the

Games, and hopefully repeats of this experience, but also a real policy and strategy about how to deal with this growing problem of wounded veterans.

AMANPOUR: And also a growing problem of how to employ them. You cover Wall Street; you cover the American and global financial reality.

Many people talk up a good game about wanting to support our veterans. Everybody's busy wearing pins and waving the flag.

How much have they put their money where their mouth is, CEOs, business leaders, to actually hire some of those who are coming home?

TETT: Well, as you say, there's been an awful lot of rhetoric about the need to try and employ veterans. In terms of the numbers that have

actually been employed, it's quite hard to get statistics and besides data on these success stories or the failures, if you like.

And unfortunately that also points to the bigger problem, which is that people are sweeping the issue under the carpet. Something like the

Invictus Games hopefully puts it out there in center stage.

But for the most part, the government and many businesses don't want to address this issue head-on.

AMANPOUR: Gillian Tett, thank you very much for reminding us. Thanks for being with us.

TETT: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And after a break, we'll take another look at the war against ISIS.

But first how a simple gesture can become a weapon. We saw it in Egypt last summer, when Muslim Brotherhood protesters raised the Rabaa hand

signal to protest the ouster of President Mohammed Morsi and the return of military rule.

Now ISIS has opted for the index finger, a universal symbol for "We're number one," raised skyward. Some call it a gang sign, others an

invocation of divine authority. But while ISIS raises a finger, young women raise rifles against them. The Peshmerga girls in a fight for their

lives when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, amid President Obama's anxiously anticipated plan to tackle ISIS, imagine a world where the battle has

already been joined by the enemy ISIS must fear most, in Kurdistan in Northern Iraq, a rare breed of partisans has taken up arms against the

medieval mindset of ISIS, whose barbaric methods have included mass rapes, sex slavery and beheadings of women.

This growing resistance army, the female wing of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or the PKK, is armed with automatic rifles. And they fight

side-by-side with their male counterparts, the Peshmerga or Kurdish government forces helping reclaim territory that's been taken by the

Islamic State.

But they have one advantage their brothers in arms don't have. It seems the all-male ISIS fighters are afraid that if they're killed in

battle by a woman, they won't go to heaven. In the meantime, these Peshmerga female fighters are making their lives hell here on Earth.

That's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank

you for watching and goodbye from London.

END