Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

CIA Estimates of ISIS Numbers Jumps; Kerry Tries to Rally Support; A Look at Air Strikes; Roger Goodell Under Intense Scrutiny

Aired September 12, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Only time will tell. But will it tell it on an Apple watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does it do?

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, happy Friday to you.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR" with Berman and Michaela starts now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm John Berman.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Michaela Pereira.

You're all smiles because it's Friday.

BERMAN: It is in fact Friday.

We are following two live events @THIS HOUR. Hillary Clinton will be speaking at a memorial service to celebrate the life of Maya Angelou, the revered writer, poet, actress, and civil rights activist who died earlier this year.

The former secretary of state has a busy weekend ahead. She heads to a state I like to call Iowa --

PEREIRA: You like to call it Iowa.

BERMAN: It's a political event with political implications and so many people watching that, and so many people are looking at this today, a new CNN/ORC poll saying 53 percent of Democrats contacted in Iowa say they would support Mrs. Clinton if the 2016 caucuses were held today, which they will not be.

PEREIRA: Oh, they haven't changed?

BERMAN: But it's still eye opening right there, 53 percent.

PEREIRA: Fifty-three percent, indeed. Meanwhile, let's turn to Washington. President Obama and former President Bill Clinton are celebrating 20 years of AmeriCorps at the White House. You're looking live at a photo -- a live image, actually, from --

BERMAN: Moving pictures, we call it.

PEREIRA: Very moving pictures of the South Lawn of the White House. Looks like it's a little warm there.

Now the big question we're wondering is of either president will comment maybe on the state of the world right now, certainly a lot of issues pressing President Obama and his administration.

But, again, here the White House celebrating 20 years of AmeriCorps and community service. Tremendous. We'll follow that and much more for you @THIS HOUR.

Now we want to move to shocking new information on ISIS in terms of the number and the nationalities of the fighters. The CIA is estimating there are between 20,000 to 31,500 ISIS militants across Iraq and Syria. That's more than three times the previous estimate.

Perhaps what's more shocking, almost half of the fighters are foreign- born.

BERMAN: They come from more than 80 countries, 2,000 of them Westerners, and roughly a dozen, as we've been saying, are American.

So what is behind the rise in the ranks of ISIS? Let's turn Jim Sciutto, our senior national security correspondent.

Jim, what's going on here? Did ISIS triple in size overnight or are the United States and CIA just getting a better look at what's going on inside Syria and Iraq right now?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I want to get to that. It's an important question. Just one quick clarification. The 15,000 fighters -- foreign fighters that are in Syria, that's actually for all the various rebel groups, including ISIS, but not exclusive to ISIS.

So it's not that now half or 15,000 of the ISIS forces is foreign, although we do believe that there are thousands of Westerners involved with ISIS, which is, of course, still significant.

So what happened with this broader number? When you speak to the CIA, they say that this is, in the simplest terms, a product of ISIS's success. As it has swept across Syria and into Iraq, it's taken over more territory. It's swept up more fighters, some of whom were recruited, some of whom -- and we've heard the reports on the ground -- are forced to fight for them.

But also people are attracted to success. You have fighters who are defecting from other rebel groups to ISIS as it's establish this is Islamic state, and again this is -- success has also attracted more foreigners. And that -- you know, that's an intimidating, sobering prospect.

I will also say that the CIA says that it's not that on Tuesday they thought there was 10,000 and Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, they now think there are 30,000. The 10,000 estimate, they say, was something that dated back to last year, that they've been looking to update it for some time. They have better intelligence now, and this is the figure they've arrived at.

But it's certainly sobering, guys, to hear that because the president has committed the country not just to degrading ISIS but destroying it. Now you're facing 20,000 to 30,000 fighters. That's a major task. That's going to take a long time.

PEREIRA: Sobering, indeed, especially when you say they are well organized and well funded on top of that.

All right, turning to something else that's very much related to that, President Obama, we know, has picked retired Marine General John Allen to lead this fight against is. He happened to be the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan from 2011 to 2013.

He certainly has his challenges ahead of him.

SCIUTTO: No question. And I think it show's administration's seriousness, a retired four-star Marine general, last command was commanding all international forces, ISAF, as it's known, in Afghanistan.

And there are some parallels between Afghanistan and here. He's known to have good relationships with regional commanders there. That's going to be important here. You've got a lot of differing alliances to work together.

You know, Afghanistan is not a civil war, but it has some of those civil conflicts there between various warring groups, which is a parallel to what's going on in Syria, although Syria is much worse, much more violent. That's one thing.

And, also, Afghanistan heavily dependent on fighting alongside local forces, not all done with an international force, you need those local partners. That's certainly going to be the case in Syria and Iraq, but more so, right? Because there aren't going to be any boots on the ground in Afghanistan. Of course you had tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers there, which is a great advantage.

So he's got experience, he's respected, but he's certainly going to have his work cut out for him in Syria and Iraq.

BERMAN: Yeah, having experience in Iraq as well, having served in the western part of that country during the conflict there after 2003.

Jim Sciutto, always great to see you, my friend. Thanks for being with us @THIS HOUR.

SCIUTTO: Take care, guys.

BERMAN: Secretary of State John Kerry trying to rally Middle Eastern partners right now to support the U.S. strategy against ISIS.

One thing he's not saying, one word he's not trying to use is "war." He is not calling this a war, although to some it looks like war. Listen to how he described it right here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: What we are doing is engaging in a very significant counterterrorism operation, and it's going to go on for some period of time.

If somebody wants to think about it as being war with ISIL, they can do so, but the fact is, it's a major counterterrorism operation that will have many different moving parts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Australia today raised its terrorism alert level from medium to high for the very first time. That signals a terrorist attack in that nation is likely, however not imminent.

Australia's intelligence agency recommended the heightened alert because of a growing number of Australians joining the extremist organization. Officials believe there are at least 60 Australians fighting with is, as many as 100 facilitators still inside the country.

Prime Minister Tony Abbot, for his part, says no specific threat has been made.

BERMAN: As we've been saying, U.S. military planes now flying over Syria, surveillance planes looking for ISIS targets that could be on the receiving end soon of American air power.

Of course the president also stressed in his speech that the U.S. will be striking ISIS from the air not the ground.

PEREIRA: But look at what one very prominent voice said about that. Quote, "the reliance on air power has all the attraction of casual sex. It seems to offer gratification but with very little commitment."

That's from retired Air Force General Michael Hayden who also led the CIA and the National Security Agency.

Joining us, our military analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona along with our national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem. Happy Friday to both of you. Thank you so much being here.

Rick, I'll start with you. Colonel, I'll start with you. You know, glib and clever analogy aside, does he have a point?

LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah. It sounds sexy to use air power, and it sounds safe, it sounds clean, it sounds surgical but it's not.

We can't do what needs to be done strictly from the air and I think even airmen like myself and General Hayden would admit that. It's going to require boots on the ground.

Whose boots on the ground is the big question. And when you're talking about inside Syria, you've got a whole hodgepodge of people over there. You've got the Free Syrian Army, who we're trying to support. You've got the Islamic Front, which the Saudis support, which is a moderate Islamist group. I don't know how that works out so much. But they ally sometimes with the Free Syrian Army to work against ISIS. And then you've got, of course, the regime.

And you've got all these players in there, so who are we going rely on to be those boots on the ground? The Free Syrian Army, I don't think has the capability to do this, especially out in that area controlled by ISIS.

BERMAN: You know what's interesting, Colonel, is you're saying the United States will be bombing them, but there will be forces on the ground fighting them. That sounds like a war to me.

So, Juliet Kayyem, you've worked in Homeland Security. You've worked in national security. You've also dabbled in politics.

Explain to me why the secretary of state is so averse to using the word "war?"

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, because there is a difference between war and a significant counterterrorism operation, and the difference is magnitude, and I think, you know, sort of scope.

And at this stage, while air power may not be sufficient, it is going to have to be sufficient in the absence of committing someone's troops to be on the ground.

So I understand it may not be perfect. I get that argument, We clearly have intelligence sources on the ground, covert operations on the ground figuring out these numbers.

But it's going to -- it's an imperfect solution with actually no perfect solution at this stage. And the president -- and no other country is right now ready to commit ground troops to this effort.

So I get what Michael Hayden is saying, and it's clever, but then the alternative is are you actually saying then we should commit U.S. ground troops? And if you are, let's have that debate.

PEREIRA: And speaking to the imperfect nature of this, whatever you call it, a war, a counterterrorism effort, one of the complicated aspects of this is, when we talk about arming moderate forces, how do you make sure, Rick -- and you've talked about this, Colonel, many times about the trickiness of dealing with Syria -- how do you make sure the right arms -- the arms get into the right hands?

FRANCONA: Yeah, that's a big problem. We've just started supplying the U.S.-made TOW missile, which is a very effective system. We'd be giving that to the Free Syrian Army.

Now, everybody is concerned are those going to show up through the Islamic front over to ISIS. Is ISIS going to take up with places and end up with these high-tech weapons?

So once you provide the weapons, even though you're giving it to vetted people, once they're in that country. they can go anywhere. It's almost impossible to keep track of that.

We saw this when we gave the Stinger to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan. They ended up in the hands of the Iranians.

So it's always going to be a problem, and I think we go into this with our eyes wide open.

BERMAN: Juliette, you see what's happening in Australia right now --

KAYYEM: Can I just --

BERMAN: Go ahead. Jump in.

KAYYEM: One way to sort of amplify what Rick is saying is just to view air power as giving us time for any number of other option which is may be available, which is also, you know, sort of supporting Iraq and the political stability there.

So when I say it's an imperfect solution, it may just be we need it to buy us some time because other collusions in this counterterrorism operation will be a better long-term solution than to putting U.S. troops or someone else's troops on the ground, which we just -- no one is committing to it. So we just have to admit that.

No one is saying, "Yes, I'm willing to put my troops on the ground" not the U.S. or any of our allies.

FRANCONA: Juliette, I agree. This may be the only option we have right now.

BERMAN: And, by the way, no one else is really committing airplanes, either, besides the United States, despite the fact other countries are saying they support it at different levels.

Juliette Kayyem, always great to see you. Colonel, great to have you here us. Really appreciate it.

PEREIRA: So, as we mentioned before, we are keeping an eye on the White House @THIS HOUR. President Obama is due to welcome former President Bill Clinton to mark the 20th anniversary of the AmeriCorps national service program.

We'll take you there live when all of the excitement and action happens.

BERMAN: And a damning new report about what Roger Goodell knew and when he knew it, can the NFL commissioner defend his handling of Ray Rice's admitted domestic violence and continue to effectively lead the league?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CRAIG CARTON, CHILDHOOD FRIEND OF RAY RICE: Ray Rice did something horrendously wrong, but the NFL's reaction to it, and how they've vacillated back and forth on what the suspension should be, what they do know, what they don't know, has really become almost comical at this point. So there are two issues, there is what Ray did, no one disputes the fact, even Ray himself, that it's wrong, then there's the way the NFL is handling it which has become keystone cops.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

PEREIRA: That was radio host Craig Carton talking about his childhood friend Ray Rice and the firestorm over how the NFL has handled the punch that Rice delivered earlier in the year to the woman who is now his wife.

BERMAN: No one under more scrutiny right now than NFL commissioner Roger Goodell who suspended Rice indefinitely this week after first suspending him for two games. Now a new report by ESPN says Rice admitted to Goodell back in June that he punched his then-fiancee inside an Atlantic City elevator.

PEREIRA: Goodell says the version of events that Rice and his now- wife Janay gave him three months ago was quote, inconsistent, with video of the punch that became public this week. Joining us to discuss it all, former prosecutor Wendy Murphy. Good to have you. Author of the book "And Justice For Some". Along with CNN commentator and senior writer for ESPN, Mr. LZ Granderson, good to have you both.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR AND AUTHOR: Good to be here.

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN SPORTS COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

PEREIRA: The Wall Street Journal reports that Goodell left his June meets with this idea that Janay became unconscious because she fell during the fight in the elevator. But clearly we look at this new ESPN report citing four unnamed sources who say Rice told the commissioner that he punched her. LZ, that's going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

GRANDERSON: Yes, but the question now is what exactly are they going to do with that taste? If you want to go back and take a look at the Donald Sterling conversation, the NBA knew of Donald Sterling's racist attitudes and similar behavior for 30 plus years and it took not just an audiotape being leaked but it took sponsors actually pulling dollars out of the L.A. Clippers to motivate the other owners to want to see him be removed as an owner. Thirty years. So now the question becomes, I hear the cries for Goodell being removed or resigning. The question becomes will that outcry put any fear in the sponsors with the NFL and make it a financial conversation? Because if it's just about Twitter and about people on television like myself being upset, that's not going to motivate the owners because they're still making bank. When you start affecting that money, then you'll start seeing some action.

BERMAN: We haven't started seeing that at all, yet, obviously, LZ. I think sponsors are still there, viewers are still there, fans are still there.

PEREIRA: Wearing Rice jerseys at the game last night.

BERMAN: Wearing Rice jersey's as we'll talk about that in a second. Wendy, we keep talking about that video and I do think it needs to be asked, when Roger Goodell got it, did he have it? Did he know the NFL had it? But what about the cops? I feel like someone had this video. And isn't that evidence of domestic violence? Evidence enough to press charges?

MURPHY: Of course it is. And, you know, I'm so glad you framed the question that way because if we focus too much on the cover-up -- and that's not that it's not important -- We forget that the original responsibility rests with the prosecutor. And Roger Goodell gave this guy a much tougher punishment than what the prosecutor doled out, which was akin to what a kid gets when he steals a candy bar from a supermarket.

I can't love LZ's comments enough. I vote for him for president because comparing this case to the Donald Sterling matter is important and here is why. The immediacy of the punishment, the intensity, permanently removed from the NBA for racist language, excellent decision, perhaps a lot too late, excellent decision. That was racist language. Here we're talking about sexist, brutal violence. Violence is worse than language. Everybody, everybody who responded to this case the way they did should have their heads roll, not just Roger Goodell. Starting with the prosecutor. He's one. And the national organization for women has no moral authority asking for Goodell to go until they first ask the prosecutor to step down. Goodell comes second because it's a crime first and it's an employment problem second.

PEREIRA: And, LZ, let's go from there. Why don't you think we haven't heard from those calls, I wonder? Because it is a crime, a crime was committed here. The police did investigate, he was given essentially what amounted to a slap on the wrist. And you talk -- we've talked about it here, the difference between the crime and the employment issue. Why haven't we heard those calls?

GRANDERSON: Because culturally we're still somewhat divided on the seriousness of domestic violence. And I think if you're going to give Roger Goodell any sort of break, it's because of this. He is part of the larger society and part of the attitude towards domestic violence. He's had 56 arrests, domestic violence-related arrests under his watch over the past nearly eight years. Totaling 13 game in suspensions, 56 arrests, 13 game suspensions, no outcry. Why? Because the fans like the product and society hasn't really paid attention because we still don't take domestic violence seriously enough. If you look at what people have been saying in regards to this case specifically, they're saying it's a private matter. It's between a man and a woman. He made one single mistake. All these things may be true, but what's also true is that this is still a serious crime and until we accept that part of the equation, we're going to be hesitant to understand why the NFL hasn't been more serious about handling their players who do domestic violence.

BERMAN: And, Wendy, based on what you see - Go Ahead.

MURPHY: Can I follow up on that for one second? Interestingly, and it's such an important point, that the value of women's lives just isn't there in the NFL or in larger society. And we shouldn't be measuring how we respond to this horrific act of violence based on the value of women's lives in terms of the number crunching that goes on at the NFL or anywhere. This is not about money, it's about human dignity and life and the respect that all women deserve, to be free from violence everywhere.

PEREIRA: And that's a really good point for us to finish this conversation on right now because what we'd like to do is have you stay with us. We have another aspect of this that we really, really need to discuss.

BERMAN: Because if all that is true, what Wendy and LZ are saying right now, very eloquently, why are there so many people, so many women wearing Ray Rice jerseys at a Baltimore Ravens game last night? We'll discuss that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: The Baltimore Ravens played football last night. They beat the Pittsburgh Steelers, they beat them by a lot at home and despite the controversy over how the NFL handled the admission by Ray Rice, and the video of him punching his wife, fans all over the stadium were decked out wearing Rice's jersey and his number 27.

PEREIRA: There it is. You can see many of the fans. Many of the fans were women, including some who explain why they wanted to pay homage to the now former Ravens running back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that everybody deserves a second chance. This is a situation that is between his wife and himself. They're going to counseling. She married him for a reason and she's standing by her man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't support what he did but I support him as a person. I believe we're all human and we all make mistakes.

BERMAN: Back with us, former prosecutor Wendy Murphy and CNN commentator and senior writer for ESPN LZ Granderson. Wendy, what do you make of the comments you just heard? What do you make of the fact women were wearing the 27 jersey? Is this about redemption?

MURPHY: You know, personally I think it is a private problem too -- to the extent it's a private problem, too -- I'm sorry.

GRANDERSON: No, go ahead, Wendy.

MURPHY: LZ, go ahead.

GRANDERSON: No, go ahead.

MURPHY: All right, to the extent it's a personal problem, too, then it's fine. If people want to make decisions about their lives that I disagree with, that's their business. It is, though, always also a crime and it makes me sad to see any person, man or woman, say it's a mistake. It's not a mistake when you swing your fist at a human being's head and they are knocked unconscious. That is the antithesis of a mistake, it's quite clearly an intentional act.

And I worry when any person glamorizes violence, celebrates it, makes heroes out of violent humans, especially violent men, in the name of promoting the sports industry because all that does is legitimize the violence on the grounds that, you know, I enjoy the game. These two things can not work together. The NFL needs leadership. The leadership is lacking. And women aren't necessarily the solution unless they make their voices heard on all sides of the aisle. Women should come together and say we're not going to buy your damn tickets if you're going to have players like this on the field. We will not buy tickets, we won't by your damn shirts, we won't buy other stuff that you make hundreds of millions of dollars on every year. We will use our purse string power and shut you down or at least cut into your profit margin because this is inhumane. You don't factor into the cost of doing business the value of a woman's life. End of discussion.

PEREIRA: I believe in redemption, but I also believe in consequences, and those things can't be mutually exclusive. LZ, you and I have had this conversation off line about wanting to make sure we don't forget what's important in this conversation about Ray Rice. I want to show you some stats, folks, at home. We're hearing from the American psychology association anywhere between one and three or one in four women around the world experience abuse by an intimate partner in their lifetime. In the U.S. 24 people are victimized every minute. An average of at least three women murdered by partners everyday and more than 12 million people victimized every year. And this is where you and I have agreed that the problem isn't Ray Rice, they do have an issue that they have to deal with there and they do have to deal with the problem within the NFL. But, again, this larger issue that needs attention, that seems to be ignored.

GRANDERSON: Michaela, I think about two of the most iconic comedies of all time, I love Lucy and The Honeymooners. And both of those comedies had domestic violence as part of their comedic bits. Ricky used to slap Lucille Ball on the bottom when she misbehaved. Remember I will punch you to the moon, that is domestic violence. And that was party of out comedic bits of two of the most iconic comedy's of all time.