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Kerry Unveils Envoy; ISIS Fighters; Ray Rice Case; Marine in Mexico; Pistorius Guilty

Aired September 12, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Randi Kaye, in for Brooke Baldwin.

Just when you thought the threat of ISIS couldn't get bigger, now a shocking new revelation from the CIA that we have severely underestimated the number of people willing to fight under the black flag of ISIS. The initial estimate of ISIS fighters was as many as 10,000, but now the U.S. believes ISIS can actually call on a fighting force of between 20,000 and 31,500. These new numbers coming as Secretary of State John Kerry continues his swing through the Middle East, trying to sell the president's plan. So far, ten Arab nations have signed on to join the fight against ISIS vowing to do their share. But what that means in terms of warfare contributions is still unclear.

One thing is clear though, Kerry is not selling this as a war. Instead, he's calling it a, quote, "very significant counterterrorism operation." Or you could just call it a war. Semantics aside, today he announced the man who will head up this new anti-ISIS coalition. For more on that, Jim Sciutto, chief national security correspondent.

Jim, nice to see you. So, General John Allen is tasked with this tough diplomatic role of cobbling together this coalition for forces to tackle ISIS. Now that's a familiar name to many of us. What should we know about him?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was the commander of all international forces, known as ISAF, the International Security Assistance Force, in Afghanistan. He also commanded forces in Iraq. So here's a general, a four-star Marine general, retired until now, who had significant commands both in Iraq and Afghanistan where he learned a great deal about dealing in environments like this and partnering with local forces, et cetera. The thing is, the challenges he will face in Syria and today's Iraq are arguably greater.

One, he's not going to have a significant American ground force. He's going to have to rely on local partners, local fighting forces that to this point, as you know, Randi, have not performed particularly well, whether we're talking about the Syrian rebels or the Iraqi security forces. Plus, the situation in Syria today, I mean, this is the bloodiest - arguably the bloodiest civil war going on in the world right now. So as challenging as the circumstances were in Iraq and Afghanistan at their worst points, Syria's even worse. And into that environment, the U.S. is throwing itself. Now it's going to be - he's had very significant difficult commands before but this is going to be, you know, arguably an even more difficult one.

KAYE: So, Jim, talk me through some of these numbers because we were just talking about how many fighters there really are it seems now. The CIA told you about the numbers, including the revelation about the number of westerners, including Americans who are believed to be fighting with ISIS and these other rebel and extremist groups. What should we know about this and how alarmed should we be about it?

SCIUTTO: Well, let's -- this is what the CIA tells me about what happened here and how that number grew. This is basically a product of ISIS' success. As it has swooped across Syria and into Iraq earlier this year, those battlefield successes have turned into recruiting successes. And those numbers have gone up for a number of reasons. One, you have defections from other rebel groups in Syria and elsewhere. They come to the guys who are winning, right?

You also have, as ISIS has taken over more territory, they've recruited more local forces and fighters, some of them forcibly, frankly, Randi. This is not all a volunteer force. But there are also, as their international profile has grown, they're even more of a magnet for foreign fighters. And you get to that point because the CIA now estimates there are 15,000 foreign fighters in Syria. That's not just for ISIS but many of them have been drawn to ISIS. And as we've discussed many times before, there are hundreds of Europeans in ISIS and a dozen Americans at least, possibly more.

KAYE: And they pay these guys, right? So that's an attraction too.

SCIUTTO: They do. They pay. And they also give them a cause. I mean when you talk to a lot of the folks who have been drawn to this fight, even the Americans, when you look at their stories, this is a cause that despite the incredible brutality we've seen in those beheading videos for instance, it draws angry young men from Europe, from America, from the region to join this fight. And just -- there was a moment in the press conference a short time ago with the Pentagon spokeswoman, Rear Admiral John Kirby, that just got at the, you know, the difficulty of this fight that the U.S. is now embarking on. The CIA now estimates 20,000 to 31,500 ISIS fighters.

Rear Admiral John Kirby got into some of the details of the training and equipping part of the president's strategy, training and equipping moderate Syrian rebels. The number they're talking about now taking place over months is 5,000. Now, you have other forces fighting against ISIS, Iraqi forces, Kurdish Peshmerga. But when you think of that number, that's a small number compared to what you have -- the problem you have with ISIS now.

KAYE: Right.

SCIUTTO: And it just shows it's going to take a lot of work, it's going to take a lot of time, it's going to take a lot of U.S. airpower.

KAYE: Jim Sciutto, thank you very much. Appreciate your reporting.

SCIUTTO: Thank you. KAYE: Well, you just heard Jim talk about the foreign fighters, including those from western countries who are swelling the ranks of ISIS fighters. But just what kind of person joins a group hell-bent on bloodshed to form a state in the name of religion? My guest says there are three general types of people who become ISIS fighters. Graeme Wood is contributing editor for "The New Republic" magazine.

Graeme, so let's take a look at your breakdown of the three types of ISIS fighters. Here they are. Psychopath, true believers and Sunni pragmatists you say. So let's start with the psychopaths. I mean, who are these guys? where do they come from? Are they more likely to be foreigners?

GRAEME WOOD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Yes, they are more likely to be foreigners. These are - the smallest group, but also really the most graphic and lurid. They're the ones we see in social media. They're the ones we see in beheading videos. And there's a good reason for that. They speak English. They speak western languages. And so in many cases they don't have any military background at all. And so what are they good for? They're good for propaganda and for scaring us.

KAYE: Do they care about religion at all?

WOOD: Some of them do. Some of the ones who we see in these lurid videos do have a religious turn in their recent history. But really the second group is the one that is most intense in its religious fervor.

KAYE: Right.

WOOD: And those are the top leaders of ISIS.

KAYE: So these are the true believers, right?

WOOD: The (INAUDIBLE) for ISIS, for example. Yes, the true believers is the name for that group. And it's also quite small compared to the largest group, which is the final one, and that's the Sunni pragmatists. So on one hand we have --

KAYE: Well, stick with the true believers though for a second. What should we know about the true believers?

WOOD: Well, the true believers are going to this cause because they see ISIS as the fulfillment of prophecy and of the right interpretation of Islamic law and their religion. They'll come from overseas and they'll come from also within Syria and Iraq if they believe that the Caliph (ph) of ISIS, the leader, Abu Bakra al- Baghdadi is in fact the only rightful leader of Muslims.

KAYE: And what about the Sunni pragmatists, who you mentioned there? I mean how important are they to ISIS and can they be lured to join the fight against ISIS?

WOOD: I think they can. I think many of them can. And really they make up the rank and file of ISIS. So although we talk a lot about westerners who have joined ISIS, the rank and file of ISIS consists of disaffected Sunnis from Iraq and Syria who, in many cases, don't have any work. They have no cause to join except for ISIS. And when they do that, they get paid. Even if it's just $100 or $200 per month, that's more than they have otherwise. And they're fully aware that the Sunni areas of western Iraq are disaffected and politically shut out from the government of Baghdad. So this group, if they can be lured back to Baghdad with at this point it would have to be a really sweet promise and a great deal for them, but if they can be lured back to Baghdad, they can be peeled off of ISIS and the psychopaths and true believers.

KAYE: All right. Graeme Wood, thank you for the breakdown there. Appreciate it. Nice to see you.

WOOD: Thank you.

KAYE: Just ahead, the mother of one of the Americans beheaded by ISIS is livid with the Obama administration. She says they didn't do enough to save her son. But it's her comment about ransom that is certainly raising some eyebrows today.

Plus, a potential bombshell in the Ray Rice saga, this time questioning whether the commissioner is telling the truth.

And women seen wearing Ray Rice jerseys at the Ravens game last night showing their support. What does this say about our society? The one and only Montel Williams pretty fired up about this. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Now to the Ray Rice fallout. Once again, Roger Goodell's version of events is getting sacked by unnamed sources. This time they're contradicting the NFL commissioner on what he actually knew before handing down the much maligned two-game suspension for Rice hitting his wife. Listen to what Goodell told CBS and sports reporters on Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: When we met with Ray Rice and his representatives, it was ambiguous about what actually happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was ambiguous about her laying unconscious on the floor being dragged out by her feet?

GOODELL: There was nothing ambiguous about that. That was the result that we saw. We did not know what led up to that. We did not know the details of that. We asked for that on several occasions.

The description of what happened was not consistent with what the videotape was. And, you know, when you see that, that was clear. And that's why we took the action that we did. And it was completely unacceptable. It was graphic. It was violent. And it was something that we felt we had to take an immediate reaction to.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KAYE: But ESPN cites four sources who say Ray Rice flat out told Goodell he hit his wife in the face and knocked her unconscious. ESPN quotes a source with knowledge of the meeting. "Ray didn't lie to the commissioner. He told the full truth to Goodell." A second source told ESPN, "he told the truth. This is a public lynching of Ray."

Joining me now, former talk show host Montel Williams to talk more about this.

Nice to see you.

MONTEL WILLIAMS, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST AND MARINE: Good to see you too.

KAYE: So you say that the Ray Rice controversy reflects a larger problem here in society.

WILLIAMS: And I'm a person that really has believed my whole life that we don't belabor (ph) what happens as much as we try to figure out why things happen and then you come up with a solution. Right now we're just wallowing down in the "what happened." But there's a reason why this has happened. You look at this generation, which over the last 10 years, generationally, under the age of 30, younger people seem to jump right to physical violence or physical something to solve their problems. And they've only been taught this because, let's remember, about ten years ago this society applauds a young lady, even still to today, her name is Snooki, who the only reason why she is popular is because a guy punched her in her face, knocked her on the floor. That show was supposed to be dropped. Had she not been punched, she would never be a household product nor name. But since then, what did we then do? We start reporting her and showing her in her drunken stoopers and we're not even discussing the alcohol as part of this issue. So I'm not trying to take away from Ray Rice. I'm not trying to take away from your guys fanfare of having one little thing to keep pointing to, but let's get to how we solve this problem.

KAYE: Right, instead of just talking about it. I hear you. I --

WILLIAMS: Right. Look at the "Housewives" -

KAYE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Look at every "Housewives" show. Every "Housewives" show, other than maybe Beverly Hills, all of them promote the shows based on violence among women. Women who spit in other women's faces. Women who punch other women. We, as a society, applaud this and you wonder why this happens.

KAYE: So let me ask you though a question about women, because not only were there blockbuster ratings at the Ravens game last night, but there were many women walking around proudly defending Ray Rice and wearing his jersey. What do you make of that?

WILLIAMS: I am - I am not trying to speak politically and, please, I'm not trying to offend anybody when I say this. There have been reports supposedly in the Baltimore area from psychiatrists and psychologists who worked with this family over time and who claim that this was a singular incident. And I'm not going to argue from whoever believes one or the other. I'm just going to say that there are people in that city who have supported this young man all along that who would say that, though he's done something wrong, he is not the face of domestic violence in America. Remember, there are other people in the league who have - who are under charges and have been under charges for domestic violence. Is Goodell going to go back right now and ban them all for life because they made a mistake the first time around?

KAYE: Right. Right.

WILLIAMS: You don't (ph) have a tape? But, no, we're going to make Ray Rice the image of domestic violence? I think that's really wrong. Bigger picture.

KAYE: Listen, I know you're very passionate about this, but I also want to ask you about another story that CNN has covered extensively.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

KAYE: It's this U.S. Marine who has been jailed in Mexico now since March 31st. Just for our viewers, I just want to share a little bit about him. We're talking about Sergeant Andrew Tahmooressi. He says that he took a wrong turn, he entered Tijuana while carrying some guns that he legally owned. Mexican authorities arrested him for weapons possessions. "The L.A. Times" is now reporting that Tahmooressi's lawyers had an eight-hour hearing with a judge this week and they're now optimistic that a ruling could happen soon that could free him. You are very passionate about this story and you've been actually working on this Marine's behalf.

WILLIAMS: This is - this has been going on since April 1st and soon could be three more months. This is a young man who suffers from mental illness. Now, I think it offends some people when I say this because it's regarding PTSD and combat PTSD. When we have to acknowledge what this is, this is mental illness. It's treatable, but it's got to be treated.

The circumstances by which he wound up in Mexico with weapons in his car are all related to his combat PTSD. The U.S. government would state that because they're the ones who evaluated him and told us that he was that way.

KAYE: But -

WILLIAMS: We should leave no soldier behind. This is a compassionate diplomatic issue. Yes, he may have broken the law, but since Mexico does not have the - and is not equipped to treat his level of PTSD, we should bring that young man back home and let him be treated here.

KAYE: Because you think not enough is being done to try and do so?

WILLIAMS: I think a lot's being done. Let me tell you something, the secretary of state's been trying to do things. I think what's happened is that everybody's been pushed into a corner because we're so angry about Mexico letting little children across the border. We've got people here saying invade Mexico and break him out of jail. Stop. Let's just talk about compassion.

Let me tell you why I'm involved in this. Jill, Andrew's mom, she had written a prayer for my daughter every day. My daughter is suffering from cancer for the last five months. Nobody knows that. She's got a son in prison. She's been reaching out to me. So I've reached out to her to try to help her. We both have children in trouble. OK. If we stop - I know there's a lot going on in the world. You've got -- we're going to go rockets red blare - red glare in Syria. We're going to go to war against ISIS. I got it. I get it. Stop for one minute and have a little compassion. A mentally ill soldier, who is the reason why we sit here because that young man did two tours in Afghanistan for us in the last year, can't we get him out? A little compassion.

KAYE: I hope we can. And I hope your daughter is well as well.

WILLIAMS: Thanks. End of story. It's not about me, it's about him.

KAYE: I know. I know. I appreciate that. Thank you.

WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE).

KAYE: Next, the Olympian known as the blade runner is guilty of homicide in the death of his girlfriend, but right now he is a free man. Hear what's next for Oscar Pistorius.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANE FOLEY, JAMES FOLEY'S MOTHER: As an American I was embarrassed and appalled. I think our efforts to get Jim freed were an annoyance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: The mother of one of the beheaded Americans tells CNN, President Obama let her son down. Hear why coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: The verdict for Paralympian Oscar Pistorius is guilty of culpable murder in the death of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. After clearing the Olympian of the more serious charge of murder, a South African judge instead found the 27-year-old guilty of the lesser charge. Pistorius was also convicted of firing his gun inside a restaurant, but escaped two other weapons related charges. His family expressed both relief and remorse after the verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD PISTORIUS, UNCLE: Like this, there's no victories in this. We as a family remain deeply infected (ph) by the devastating tragedy event and it won't bring Reeva back but our hearts still go out for her family and friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KAYE: Pistorius is out on bail until his sentencing next month. He's living with his uncle after selling his house to pay for some legal fees. The victim's family was in the courtroom but did not address the media. CNN'S Robyn Curnow is in Pretoria with more on today's verdict.

So, Robyn, what happens now?

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, now, Oscar Pistorius, at least for the next month, is out on bail. He'll stay at his uncle's house. And he'll be back here again in a month for that sentencing hearing. And that's all going to be about character witnesses, there's going to be more evidence put forward for the judge. It could take a week. Then she'll retire again and come up with some sort of verdict on sentence.

Now, the important thing about sentence, Randi, is that there isn't a minimum or maximum. She has pure discretion on whether she wants to give him community service or years in jail. There really isn't any way to call how she's going to rule on this.

KAYE: And is there any - I mean there -- you said there's no minimum or maximum, but is there anything that has set a precedent that we could look at in the past?

CURNOW: No, absolutely. And I mean that's the whole basis of the legal system is all of, you know, these cases are built on previous precedence. And I think when we were talking to Kelly Phelps, our legal analyst, it's important to note that another recent case where somebody was given a verdict of culpable homicide, the man had been a taxi driver. He killed ten children because he'd been driving negligently, you know, over a railway track and was hit by a train. He got a verdict of culpable homicide and eight years in prison. Now if you weigh that up compared to Oscar Pistorius' conviction, you know, you can think, well, maybe -- you actually can't - you can't - you can't sort of - you can't judge it but that's the kind of convictions you're getting for culpable homicide for the killing of ten children, you get eight years. So where Oscar Pistorius fits into that, you know, it's not for us journalist to try and, you know, sort of suck our thumbs on what he's going to get.

KAYE: Right.

CURNOW: I mean I think what's so important about this. South Africa's talking about this, you know, in great detail and there's a very important issue here is that the judge has to weigh up every single factor of this case in relation to his case. And his disability definitely is going to come into that.

KAYE: Yes, absolutely. No doubt. Robyn Curnow, thank you very much.

And be sure to tune in to a CNN special spotlight on this case. The twists. The turns. That's 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Just ahead, as John Kerry struggles to build a strong coalition against ISIS, hear why some of the Arab nations most at risk refuse to do the heavy lifting. Plus, James Foley's mother is angry with President Obama and says she

was told not to raise money for a ransom or she would be prosecuted. We'll speak with the administration to get its response, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)