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Kerry Wins Arab Support for ISIS Fight; U.S. Struggles to Build Anti-ISIS Coalition; The Anti-War President's War Speech; Goodell Takes Heat for Rice Video; Vikings Adrian Peterson Indicted; New Witnesses in Michael Brown Case; Zimmerman Accused of Death Threat; Hillary Clinton in Iowa; Obama Turned Away from Prestigious Golf Courses

Aired September 13, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hello, everyone, I'm Randi Kaye in New York. The United States has a plan to take down or take out the militant group ISIS, but the plan needs partners. As of today, at least ten Arab nations have come forward promising to support the fight against the ISIS threat. Secretary of State John Kerry in Cairo today getting that promise from Egypt, one of the most influential Arab nations.

He had similar success in Saudi Arabia and Turkey. CNN Elise Labott is traveling with Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Secretary Kerry came to Turkey seeking support from a pivotal partner in the fight against ISIS.

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Within the coalition there are many ways that Turkey can help in this effort, and we will continue our conversations with our military and other experts spending time to define the specific role that Turkey will play.

LABOTT: Bordering Iraq and Syria, Turkey would be an ideal place to base U.S. strikes. But with ISIS holding 49 Turkish government employees hostage, Turkey's foreign minister spoke only about, quote, "challenges and threats in the region." On Thursday, Kerry met with 10 Arab nations which ring Syria.

The U.S. wants them to join a global coalition to go after ISIS. After the talks, the country's, quote, "agreed to do their share" in the comprehensive fight against the militants, but few made specific commitments.

Neighboring Jordan already hosts a small CIA program to train Syrian rebels, but has been silent about requests to stage more operations there. U.S. officials say Saudi Arabia, which hosted Thursday's talks, has volunteered to train Syrian opposition on its soil, but when asked, the foreign minister was vague.

PRINCE SAUD AL-FAISAL, SAUDI ARABIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Saudi Arabia has always taken initiatives with regard to a firm position toward terrorists and against them. So there is no limit to what the kingdom can provide in this regard.

LABOTT: The U.S. also wants Arab states to cut financing to ISIS, which Secretary Kerry said was a focus of the strategy in an interview with CNN.

(on camera): You call Saudi Arabia a great partner in this coalition and praised the work of the kingdom. Yet Saudi support and financing for radical Islam, Wahhabism over the years is widely seen as part of the problem.

KERRY: Have they supported a certain ideological point of views? Sure. But that's different from supporting overt terror and the kinds of activities here.

LABOTT (voice-over): Syria wants to take part in the coalition, even though the U.S. faults President Assad's bloody crackdown on his people as a root cause of ISIS rise.

BOUTHAINA SHAABAN, ADVISER TO SYRIAN PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASSAD: We are ready to be part of any coalition against terrorism.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LABOTT: It's also unclear what role, if any, Iran could play in this global coalition. There's been some talk that perhaps Iran could attend a meeting next week in France of coalition countries. Secretary Kerry said between Iranian troops fighting in Syria and Iran's support for its terrorist groups in the region, Iran does not belong at that meeting. But the U.S. is also balancing that nuclear deal with Iran and trying not to antagonize Congress.

Elise Labott, CNN Ankara.

KAYE: In his Wednesday speech, President Obama emphasized the importance of Secretary Kerry's trip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: And in the coming days, he will travel across the Middle East and Europe to enlist more partners in this fight especially Arab nations who can help mobilize Sunni communities in Iraq and Syria to drive these terrorists from their lands. This is American leadership at its best. We stand with people who fight for their own freedom, and we rally other nations on behalf of our common security and common humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: But so far as Elise Labott reported there, the response has been lukewarm.

Joining me to talk more about the difficulties of building this coalition to fight ISIS, CNN national security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer and CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, so good to see you both. But let me start here with Saudi Arabia. This is a quote from Michael

Rubin from the American Enterprise Institute. He says trusting Saudi Arabia to take the lead on deradicalization is like asking arsonist to be volunteer firefighters. That's a pretty strong statement, Bob. Can the U.S. trust the Saudis and what's stopping the Saudis from doing more?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: No, they can't trust them. Saudi Arabia, at least on a private level, has been funding the Islamic opposition in Syria, which is -- which has morphed into ISIS. They have a radical ideology. They are strongly, strongly backing any radical militant Islamic groups. They -- you know, they're schizophrenic about this because they're worried it's going to come back and get them. But at the same time I don't see them, you know, concerted way going after ISIS. They'll, you know, go through the motions, but that's it.

KAYE: And, Nic, you've been to Saudi Arabia many times. What are some of the competing factors at work here, do you think? I mean, what's stopping the Saudis from doing more to help the U.S. and the coalition?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, every country has its own agenda and the Saudis have been pushing for a long time to get -- to get an international coalition. At one time they wanted to get 50,000 troops to back the moderate rebels to force Bashir al Assad out of government.

So, in one sense they're keen to be part of a coalition that's going to shape the future of Syria. So, you have a plus there. They have their own problem that young men are going in their droves, going from Saudi Arabia to Syria to join groups like the Islamic State, ISIS. So, that's a problem for them. But ISIS itself has already said it will target the Saudi monarchy. It wants to create a caliphate. The caliphate includes obviously the -- Islam's two holiest shrines which are in Saudi Arabia. The king of Saudi Arabia is the custodian of those shrines.

So for the royal family of Saudi Arabia, this is a very personal fight as well, so you've got that in the plus corner. Their desire to shape the future of Syria in the plus corner, their wealth. So, there's a lot to play with there. We've seen Saudi Arabia as well in Yemen, for example, the President's talked about tackling terrorism in Yemen as well. We've seen Saudi Arabia there play a role. One of its agents brought out a very sophisticated bomb, passed it over to CIA operatives within the past year or so. So, Saudi Arabia can play a positive role both financially, also building support for that coalition and behind the scenes as well, in the sort of intelligence side, if you will.

KAYE: And, Bob, turning to Iraq for just a moment here, I mean, you're hearing the U.S. may not even be reaching out to the right people. Is that correct?

BAER: Exactly. I've been getting a lot of communications from the tribal groups in Anbar province and Salahadeen desperately seeking out U.S. contact. They said, yes, we initially brought ISIS in to Anbar to defeat Maliki, defeat the central government. Yes, we cooperated with them. But now it's gotten out of hand and we're ready for a second awakening. You have to keep in mind that Anbar province and Salahadeen are tribal based and these tribes are very strong. They're armed. And they think that they can beat ISIS in the field of battle. But we'd also have to meet certain preconditions, and they would need the same status as the Kurds have.

They would need to get their fair share of oil income, and they would not allow the central army in Baghdad to deploy into their areas. I think these conditions are reasonable because Maliki so mistreated them over the last couple years that they just out of pure anger they allied with ISIS. And I think they're starting to regret it. But at the same time I think we need to leverage this and seriously consider a second awakening and somebody should be talking to these people, and I guarantee you they're not right now.

KAYE: All right. Bob, Nic, stay with me. A lot more to talk about. When we come back, we'll talk more about the shortage of allies. Prime Minister David Cameron came out swinging against ISIS two weeks ago. So why aren't we seeing more British support for the coalition now?

And later on, new witnesses to Michael Brown's shooting come forward. Hear what they say they saw that day in Ferguson, Missouri.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back. Back with me now is CNN national security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer and CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson. Listen, guys, when we left off right there before the break, you were talking about the importance of talking to the right people in Iraq. So, Nic, I wanted you to respond to what Bob was saying about that.

ROBERTSON: Yes, absolutely. I totally hear what Bob is saying there. I sat down at the beginning of June, right around the beginning of June, when ISIS was sweeping into the North of Iraq, talked to a tribal leader, an Iraqi tribal leader and he said, look, we wouldn't be pairing up with these people right now if only the Americans would come and talk to us.

This is a man I've known for almost a decade. This is a man who was part of the awakening working with marines in al Anbar in the west of Iraq. So, these are people sitting there who do want that support and don't want to get entangled with a real radical, nihilistic brand of Sunni Islam that ISIS is fomenting at the moment.

KAYE: So, Bob, are you concerned obviously that we may not be talking to the right people?

BAER: Well, I mean, Nic just really hit the nail on the head. We talk to the Sunni who are in Baghdad. We don't venture out of the green zone, and there are four tribes -- major tribes in Iraq that belong to -- I know this is a little bit too much detail, but they belong to Dulane (ph) confederation but they have two million people and can put a lot of people under arms and we have no contact with them.

KAYE: Yes.

BAER: Listen, frankly, they wouldn't be getting in touch with me looking for U.S. contacts if they were in contact. And I know that the supreme sheikh is not being met. They absolutely refuse to because he helped ISIS go into Anbar to defeat the government in Baghdad. And I understand why they did it. And now they want to switch sides. This is the way they do in that part of the world. They want to join us, and it's a mistake for this administration to completely support the new prime minister and let the new prime minister in Baghdad decide which Sunni we're going to meet and which ones we're not.

KAYE: Let me ask you about something else. First listen to this, British Prime Minister David Cameron, listen to what he had to say on September 1st.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We must use all the resources at our disposal, our aid, our diplomacy and our military. We need a firm security response whether that is military action to go after the terrorist, international cooperation on intelligence or uncompromising action against terrorists at home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So, Nic, why isn't the U.S. seeing more support from the UK?

ROBERTSON: Political. David Cameron really needs to get his MPs on site for air strikes or for stronger support of the coalition. He's got a lot working against him right now. I mean, let's look at yesterday, for example, Friday, the secretary of defense here said that he could rule out air strikes, British air strikes, inside Syria. Four hours later. David Cameron's office said, hold on, actually we're not taking anything off the table right now. But because he tried to get a vote through last year after those gas attacks in Syria, the chemical weapons attacks and he failed to win over MPs for support then, he needs to do that again, but right now Cameron has a massive, massive domestic issue on his plate.

Scotland is very close to breaking away from the rest of the United Kingdom and he would not want to be the Prime Minister, the conservative prime minister indeed, that would see Britain break up. I mean, it goes way beyond that, that particular point. There are huge constitutional issues at stake. He rushed up to Scotland a couple of days ago to try to convince people, so right now this is a prime minister who's got bigger issues, bigger than Syria and ISIS right now on his plate, Randi.

KAYE: All about priorities for him right now. Bob, I mean, what would you say? How important are British and French support at this point?

BAER: We're not going to see much. It's a quagmire. You know, the Levant, Syria and Iraq and now Lebanon and potentially Jordan, and there's no clear-cut route to victory and they know it. And if they go in and they start bombing the Islamic State, the chances of one of their nationals coming back and committing terrorism as they did the museum in Brussels is pretty good. It's a matter of time. So, are they ready to stir up that hornets' nest from the air? They're reluctant.

KAYE: Yes. Certainly sounds that way. All right, guys, thank you. Nice to see you, Bob. Nic, I appreciate it.

Coming up, John Kerry said the fight against ISIS isn't a war. Then the White House said it is. Is President Obama's administration on the same page? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: President Obama delivered a speech this week that he likely never wanted or expected to deliver. The President who got elected on a pledge to end the war in Iraq said the U.S. will lead a coalition of nations in a campaign to destroy the ISIS terror group inside Iraq and Syria. We're going to talk about this and some other big issues with our two regulars who we know love to hash it out.

CNN commentator Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill. All right, guys, I know you're ready. I want to start today with a portion of the President's speech where he compared his planned strategy to the U.S. fight against terror groups in Yemen and Somalia. Listen to this first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The strategy of taking out terrorists who threaten us while supporting partners on the front lines is one that we have successfully pursued in Yemen and Somalia for years and it is consistent with the approach you outlined earlier this year to use force against anyone who threatens America's core interests but to mobilize partners wherever possible to address broader challenges to international order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: All right, Ben Ferguson, to you first on this one.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

KAYE: Is this strategy really going to be any different from the tactics that we've used in Yemen and Somalia?

FERGUSON: I certainly hope so. The fighting forces are drastically very different. The tactics that they use in Yemen and Somalia are completely different, and as weird as this sounds more civilized than ISIS. The recruiting and the way that they recruit people is entirely different, and their ultimate goals are completely different. So, to say that we're going to mirror and they're going to be an awful lot alike is looking at the situation in a way I think what world are you looking at? I mean, these aren't even remotely close to the same logistics on the ground, same governments on the ground. You have ISIS taken over 50 percent of Iraq. You cannot treat them the same way. One is a significant fighting force. The other one not so much. The one ISIS is willing to kill anybody that gets in their way including women and children. The other one, they don't kill women, they don't behead children. They're completely different scenarios and I hope that this president understands that.

KAYE: Marc, what do you say?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, this will stun many Americans but I disagree with what Ben Ferguson just said. I think first of all, the President wasn't saying that the forces of ISIS is exact the same as the forces in Somalia or Yemen, he's saying that the overall strategy of air strikes and targeting leadership and then also playing to local forces and local troops is the overall strategy. Of course, ISIS is bigger and more powerful and more robust and that means that you would need more air strikes, more forces and more navigation of those waters. That's not to say that I agree with the presidents strategy, but I think Ben's statement that the president doesn't have an accurate assessment of what's going on is incorrect. If you look at what's going on in Somalia, what's going on in Yemen, with al Qaeda and their affiliates like al Shabaab, you will realize that they do have the same ideology as ISIS, they are already drawn from -- and they are all drawn from Muhavees (ph) and they are all drawn of a very particular vision of an Islamic State. So, in that sense they do have --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But their fighting forces are very different. But their fighting forces are very, very different. And the thing is that the way that they handle themselves and the methods they use is so different. The way that they do things is different.

KAYE: Hold on. One of you at a time. So we can listen. Marc.

LAMONT HILL: I disagree. OK. OK.

FERGUSON: I would say this --

LAMONT HILL: I wasn't making -- the ultimate goal of all these organizations that you've mentioned, the ultimate goal of all the organizations you've mentioned as opposed to Hamas which is a more local jihadist group, it is global Islamic State, it is a Halafah (ph) but that's not what's going on here. Where I disagree with the President and where I think the President has made a mistake is to say that somehow Yemen and Somalia are the markers of success. We cut off the head of al-Shabaab last week and -- pops up.

FERGUSON: They're failures.

LAMONT HILL: I wouldn't kill them failures. But they haven't been completely successes either. In Yemen, we see more airstrikes, we see drone attacks, we see innocent civilians, it is not a marker of success. I wouldn't call them a complete failures because we've contained them but we haven't defeated them.

FERGUSON: I do think the difference is this, the ISIS fighters all the way down from the top down don't care as much about who's in charge in leadership and ultimately what they're in control of as much as they care about taking over and attacking Americans, beheading Americans and that is very different. And so I think you got to look at it differently.

KAYE: All right, guys, let me ask you another question because one of the things that's been going on this week is the question of, are we at war, are we not at war and then you have Mr. Obama insisting on saying ISIL instead of ISIS, he and the Secretary of State John Kerry, they initially went out of their way to label this, not to label this, a war and then they've been calling it a counterterrorism efforts so we have this whole war of words going on. Are these just word games, Marc, is it a conscious choice with political implications?

LAMONT HILL: I think the people of critique for example, the president for saying ISIL instead of ISIS, I think that that's absurd. I don't think there's some deep underhanded strategy to speak to a broader aspiration for U.S. military or for ISIS or ISIL or -- whatever you want to call them. The point of the matter, the "S" in ISIS or the "L" in ISIL, it means the same thing in Arabic. It's the same thing, it's not a big deal.

KAYE: OK. How about war not war?

LAMONT HILL: For me, the big one is war or not. Yes, for me the bigger concern is war versus not war. This is a war and we're going to be navigating a proxy war and that's just a reality we have been for a very long time. And the idea of saying we don't have boots on the ground is also sort of absurd. I mean, we do have boots on the ground, we've always had boots on the ground, we'll continue to have boots on the ground, whether you call them that or not.

FERGUSON: I think one of the biggest problems the President has right now is he doesn't want to be a wartime president but when you are fighting a group whether it be ISIS or ISIL you better call what it is and show command and understanding of the situation and to somehow be so obsessed with not calling it war when, in fact, everyone watching that is a grown adult understands this is war, shows a lack of leadership on the issue. You can't rewrite history either you're going to fight these terrorists and that is war or you are not going to. And right now, we we're saying, we're going to, and it may even be in a limited way but you are not fooling anybody by not calling it war and I think that also it really undermines your ultimate issue. ISIS or ISIL should know that we are coming after them in a war mentality and if we don't, it shows another level of weakness or lack of understanding of the situation.

KAYE: All right, guys listen --

LAMONT HILL: You always taking a --

KAYE: No. Sorry.

LAMONT HILL: He always goes too far.

KAYE: Listen, still to come, we have a lot more to talk about all right, this evening. Plenty of time to talk about a whole bunch of stuff. We're going to turn to former Baltimore Raven Ray Rice, the damaging power of a videotape and the NFL's inconsistent response to domestic violence. Maybe I'll get a word in with that. Who knows? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Suspended Baltimore Ravens star, Ray Rice, ventured out in public today along with his wife, Janay. Rice attended a football game at his old high school. It is his first public appearance since the elevator video surfaced that showed him knocking out his then-fiance. That video caused him to be suspended from the NFL indefinitely.

Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson are back with me to talk about this.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is certainly taking a lot of heat about this. You guys, you know that.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

KAYE: Critics claim that his first penalty was too lenient. It was only two games, and the growing questions about whether he did or did not see the second video before it became public.

Marc, to you first.

Should Roger Goodell keep his job?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: Absolutely not. There has been nothing more disturbing to me this week than to see the league's response to this. Over the last few months it's been disturbing a two-game suspension was unsettling but once I saw the tape it was unimaginable how they could have come to the determination. The counter they didn't see the tape. I don't believe it before TMZ and certainly not now. I think the league is irresponsible and showing a wanton indifference to the suffering of Janay and domestic violence. And I think we need to do something different.

KAYE: Ben, what do you think? Does Goodell stay or go?

FERGUSON: Goodell has absolutely no integrity with me. Whether he saw it or not, I can tell you one thing, I think it's pretty obvious he didn't want to see the tape because he didn't want to have to make a tough decision.

LAMONT HILL: Right.

FERGUSON: And I also think this is a problem with the NFL commissioner working for the owners. The owners, I'm sure, don't want tough penalties because that means they lose star athletes that they've invested in. But in the grand scheme of things, you literally have a talent pool of the entire world that you can pull from. The NFL should come out and make it very clear that we don't put up with this. It's a privilege to play in the NFL. It's a privilege to make minimum salaries in the $300,000, $400,000, and $500,000 and $600,000 range, and we don't have to put up with your garbage, your abuse of women, your drug abuse, your beating, your drinking, whatever it may be, because we have plenty of people that can fill your position. And the fans are the ones ultimately that I think should demand it because I think the integrity of the NFL is hurt far much more than Goodell. I think the owners also look horrible here and they should take some blame for this because they're the ones that hired Goodell in the first place.

LAMONT HILL: I wish they did. I wish they did, Ben. I think you're right. Unfortunately when people see words like commissioner, they assume that commissioner is somehow the boss or the president of the league and somehow the owners are under the commissioner --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: They're not.

LAMONT HILL: -- but the fact is, as you pointed out, it's not the case. The owners are the ones who position the commissioner to make these decisions. The commissioner is an extension of the owners and not the boss of the owners and I want to see the Baltimore Ravens take more criticism here. I want to see the league take more.

FERGUSON: Look at some of the owners. The Colts owner that got in trouble with the DUI. And look at Jerry Jones he's got new photos out with strippers. These guys aren't living a polished life either. So I'm sure they are saying I don't want to condemn my own players when look at my own life as well. I think that's a big, core problem. And the fans should demand that the NFL clean up its act from the ownership on down.

KAYE: Let me ask you about another story, obviously in the news this weekend. The other player in trouble, Minnesota Vikings running back, Adrian Peterson. We know he surrendered after being indicted on injuring a child. In this case, it was his young son. Peterson was the league's most valuable player in 2011.

Is this the worst week ever for America's favorite sports league, Marc?

LAMONT HILL: Absolutely. This is how bad it is, the owner of the Atlanta Hawks in basketball wrote the second most-racist letter in sports history and it doesn't even lead in the sports news, much less global news or national news, because of what's going on in the NFL. He should be writing a thank you letter to the NFL. The NFL has had an awful week between domestic violence and child abuse. It's an awful image. The NFL needs a new image and part of it means getting rid of Roger Goodell if for no other reason they need to give the appearance of a change and a conscience, for one.

KAYE: Ben, what do you think?

FERGUSON: I agree. Adrian Peterson, I will say with a little bit of caution -- I want to see how it plays out. He has a child that comes in his life that he didn't know was his until recently. You very well may have a "he said, she said" situation from all the way in Minnesota down into Texas. I will be interested to see what happens in the full investigation.

But ultimately, I don't think he should be playing and I think that should have been made very clear until this is cleared up by the NFL as soon as this information came out. And you can yet again see the lack of leadership from the NFL and Goodell. When you have this come out immediately, there should be a "you're not playing this week and we're not even going to have it come out to speculation."

KAYE: Interesting that they took Adrian Peterson off the game list for tomorrow, though, you know, when all these other players are involved --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Sure. But they waited.

KAYE: They did. They did.

(CROSSTALK)

All these other players who have been convicted.

FERGUSON: Yeah.

KAYE: But then you have somebody like, you know, Greg Hardy, who has been convicted and is still playing. I don't know.

FERGUSON: He said I got an appeal and therefore I can still play because I've appealed my --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Exactly. Exactly.

FERGUSON: Again, this is an example where the fans should be outraged and demand a change.

LAMONT HILL: I think we need --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: All right, still ahead, a pair of witnesses say Michael Brown had his hands in the air when he was killed by Ferguson policeman We'll see how it impacts the case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: New witnesses are coming forward in the shooting death of 18- year-old Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. I spoke with two contractors who say that they saw Brown put his hands in the air. I want to show you this exclusive video shot by an unidentified witness. Now, it shows the contractors reacting moments after the gunshots rang out. Both men say that they did not see how the confrontation began. One told me that he saw Michael Brown put his hands in the air but that the police officer, in his words, "just kept shooting." They both told me the police officer was chasing Brown. And one of the workers, the one there in the green shirt, told me that Brown was shot when his back was turned. And both men say there were three police officers on the scene by the time the incident was over, but only one was actually involved in the shooting.

CNN commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson, are here.

Marc, you saw that video there. Does the new video, and the witness accounts I was talking about there, change anything in the story for you?

LAMONT HILL: It didn't change anything on the story to me. I was on the ground in Ferguson. I spoke to witnesses. I spoke to the young man who shot the video. I have seen other videos that have yet to be released. All of them are consistent with what the initial witnesses said which is that this kid was shot with his hands up. There are different -- there are some different claims about whether his back was turned or whether his body was turning when this happened. But in all cases, he was not charging the officers or being aggressive or even armed. It would change the court of public opinion if admitted as evidence. I pray that this leads to the conviction that justice demands.

KAYE: Ben, what do you think? Change anything for you?

FERGUSON: I'm glad the video's out. I ultimately want the truth to come out. And if there was too much force used by this police officer, and if he did, in fact, cross that line, then he should be charged with a crime. And so the more information that comes out, the better it is going to be for the grand jury. The better it will be if it goes to court.

I do think these two workers, this is initial reaction, and their initial reaction seems to be that at the point he was shot, or the point he continued to start shooting that it looks like he was not a threat to the police officer at that moment, so if this is consistent with the other reports that we see, then, yes, it does change something and I'm glad that there was this much video out there because it will help put together ultimately what happened in the last seconds of this confrontation and ultimately his life.

KAYE: Yeah. I think what's important about it is it's a really raw response, you know, because it was within moments there that they got that video that's why it's critical. Also these two white guys from out of town who ties to Ferguson at all. So I should mention that.

Let's talk about George Zimmerman. He's back in the news. A Florida man has accused Zimmerman of threatening to kill him during a road rage incident apparently and showing up later at the man's job. Zimmerman, as you know, was acquitted by that six-person jury last year of second-degree murder and manslaughter in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. So, since that trial, George Zimmerman has been pulled over now we're counting three times by police. He was also arrested last September for an alleged domestic dispute.

Ben, are you ready to be free from George Zimmerman?

FERGUSON: I wish George Zimmerman would check himself into a rehab situation for a very extended period of time, anger management and everything you can possibly get treated for. The guy should have realized when he got out that he had a job to basically make sure that he was always above reproach. And I don't care what people say to you, I don't care what anger or guilt or you feel like your life is over, you can't keep doing this because, every time you do, more and more people think maybe you should have been convicted of the -- of a crime that day.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

FERGUSON: I mean, this is -- know when to walk away.

LAMONT HILL: This is -- Well, I wish he would have known when to walk away that night when he killed Trayvon Martin. But ultimately this is eerily reminiscent to me of the O.J. Simpson verdict where jury made a verdict counter of what was expected. And the person had an opportunity whether innocent or guilty to move on their life, but somehow there's something in their life that attracts them to this kind of stuff. George Zimmerman had an opportunity to live a life without encounters with law enforcement, and yet he keeps coming back. It doesn't mean he was guilty of murder, but I think he was. But it certainly speaks to the issues of George Zimmerman that he's still wrestling with. And despite my frustration with that case, I still hope he gets help and care, and I still hope he gets a level of support and love that he never offered Trayvon Martin.

KAYE: Yeah, maybe a little less attention, too.

All right, guys, thank you.

LAMONT HILL: Yeah, how about that.

KAYE: Coming up, officially, Hillary Clinton hasn't announced her 2016 plans, but her trip to Iowa this weekend has a lot of people asking when, not if. We'll talk about it right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Well, they are already talking presidential politics in Iowa, even though the next presidential election is more than two years away. Hillary Clinton is expected to join retiring Democratic Senator Tom Harkin tomorrow for his annual steak fry fundraiser. It's a politically important stop for any White House hopeful in the state that's home to the first in the nation presidential caucuses.

Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill are back with me.

Marc, Hillary Clinton has been busy, very busy, selling books, but she's doing everything a potential presidential candidate should do. So what are the odds, you think, that she is the Democratic nominee in 2016?

(LAUGHTER)

LAMONT HILL: She's just -- she's just selling books. She's just being a former states woman, a former first lady, a former Senator.

(LAUGHTER)

KAYE: Yeah.

LAMONT HILL: She hasn't even considered running for the presidency. I don't know what you're talking about. She just likes Iowa, the same way John Edwards did eight years ago.

(LAUGHTER)

No, I mean, Hillary Clinton has been running for presidential the last six years and she's doing a masterful job of not running for president officially because she is already the presumptive nominee. She has nothing to gain by throwing her hat into the ring. This is another piece of that. But expect her to make an announcement much later down the road.

KAYE: Ben, what do you think? If she is going to run, is there anything that could trip her up, a dark horse, perhaps?

FERGUSON: Yeah. I think there's lots of things that trip her up. Look at her book tour. It hasn't actually gone perfectly with some of the comments that she's made. I think she's got a lot of baggage and her book didn't necessarily fix it or explain it with foreign policy. Now she's, you know, kind of pressing on President Obama, saying his plan with ISIS isn't exactly what she wanted. She's tried to distance herself from Benghazi. But ultimately, what I think can hurt her the most right now is none of that. It's if you annoy people by saying you're not running when, in fact, you're running. And it's irritating to voters.

LAMONT HILL: Oh, not true.

FERGUSON: Just come out and admit it. And say you're going to run for office. I mean, you're running. To say, oh, I'm just thinking about it, I'm sleeping on it, I'm selling a book. I'm not sure what I'm --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Not ready to announce.

(CROSSTALK) LAMONT HILL: But, Ben, that's the same thing that everybody does.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Ted Cruz does that, Rand Paul, Chris Christie. None says, hey, we're going to run for president. Nobody does that.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But you just made my point. There's like 20 people in the Republican side. There's Hillary Clinton and there's some guy named Joe Biden. I mean, it's a little bit different field, isn't it?

KAYE: But you know what's so funny to me --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: That's exactly why Hillary doesn't want to run.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: OK. Go on, Marc.

LAMONT HILL: I'm sorry. There is a delay. That's why that keeps happening.

What I was saying, that's why Hillary doesn't want to put herself out there. She's not one of many. She is only one. She would be putting a huge bull's eye on herself without any Benefit on the other end.

KAYE: I think it's interesting how she was handling it. I think it was Jon Stewart, on "The Daily Show," asked what would that office look like, would it be oval, round?

(LAUGHTER)

She's getting all kinds of funny questions. Everybody is coming at her with all different angles, but still not giving it up, right?

FERGUSON: No. And the thing is, if you peek too soon or too late, it can be the difference between victory and defeat. And if anybody knows that, it should be Hillary Clinton. Remember, she peaked a little too early against Barack Obama when she ran against him. That was hers to win. And Barack Obama can't -- you know, in many ways, came out of nowhere and beat her. And beat her pretty handily at the end. And so there's a lot of people that said, you know, maybe she should have just stayed a little bit lower for a little bit longer. You're already the front runner. Do you need to release the book this early? Do you need to be making these trips this early? Because a lot of what you're doing now is exactly what she did last time.

(LAUGHTER)

And I think it puts you in a bad place. As an adviser, I would say wait a couple more months.

KAYE: Let me ask you one last topic here.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: A favorite on this show -- President Obama's golf game. Not his swing, just his game. A report this week said the president of the United States was turned away from some of the most prestigious golf clubs in America, Wing Foot and Trump National. The clubs reportedly didn't want to inconvenience their wealthy members.

So, Marc, is that a big wow to you? Are you surprised that a sitting president would be denied a chance to play golf anywhere he wanted?

LAMONT HILL: Not really. I mean, golf clubs -- these aren't like basketball courts. These are exclusive places with really rich people who have spent a lot of money. And while there's some prestige to having the president there, the bottom line is the bottom line for these guys. And it probably didn't make financial sense to do so.

KAYE: Ben?

FERGUSON: They have always said, the only people that enjoy playing golf when the president is, is the three people that are actually getting to play with him. And in the same thing in the motorcade. The only people that enjoy a presidential motorcade are the people in the motorcade. Everyone else hates it. And if you're looking forward to playing a good round of golf that weekend and you're a club, do you really care if it's shut down and you can't play because the president is on your course?

The answer is you probably don't like it. And it doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat. And I think they probably made the right decision, which was, we don't want to shut down our entire course for a whole afternoon for three people to play golf and the rest of the people to be sitting around waiting.

KAYE: So you don't think it has anything to do with his game?

FERGUSON: No. I don't think it has anything to do with his fame or what party he's in or anything. I think people don't want to sit around and wait. You can't even follow. If you let the members follow him and watch him on -- but Secret Service doesn't allow that. So literally, it's quarantined golf course and everyone else has to wait in line and it's not a good -- it's not good for anybody but the president and the three guys playing with him.

LAMONT HILL: Randi, when you say his game, you mean the fact he's not very good at golf?

KAYE: Yeah, I was kind of saying that, but --

(LAUGHTER)

LAMONT HILL: Look, if that were the case Charles Barkley wouldn't be allowed on any golf course in America.

KAYE: There you go. LAMONT HILL: I don't' think it's profit. I think it's purely about logistics.

KAYE: I know. I was just kidding. I've never played golf with the president, have no idea what game he's got.

(LAUGHTER)

So, hey, there you go.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

KAYE: Listen, thank you so much. That was a lot of fun. Enjoy the rest of your Saturday.

We'll be right back, everyone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Now let's meet this week's "CNN Hero," a musician using his talents to help injured troops.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

ARTHUR BLOOM, CNN HERO: Music is my earliest memory. I never decided to be a professional musician. It's just what I've always done.

(MUSIC)

BLOOM: It feels great to play music. But it's also a mechanism for healing.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're on this normal morning patrol, walking down a road. I had never been hit by an IED before. It felt like I got hit by a wrecking ball. I sat up. My legs were completely gone. What happens if you don't quite get killed and you don't quite survive, you're somewhere in the middle. I was a shell of a man. Who I was, was gone.

BLOOM: Let's take it right before the melody comes in.

(MUSIC)

BLOOM: Our organization helps wounded warriors play music and recover their lives.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We match the injured troops with professional musicians who come visit at Walter Reed medical center and work with them on music projects, learning music, writing and performing.

(SINGING)

BLOOM: We're going to try to incorporate a little more metal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not a music therapist. I'm a musician. But by injecting music into this space, we can inject life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something survived that horrible injury in Afghanistan. And that was my ability to play the guitar. Arthur and his program changed my outlook on what is possible.

(SINGING)

BLOOM: Music has no stigma. Folks who work with, when they do music, there is nothing injured about the way they do it. It's just good music.

(SINGING)

(END VIDEOTAPE)