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Don Lemon Tonight

Arizona Cardinals' Jonathan Dwyer Arrested for Domestic Violence; Should Roger Goodell Go?; House Approves President's Plan to Arm Rebels; ISIS's Propaganda War; Adrian Peterson Sparks Debate Over Discipline Versus Child Abuse; Bill Cosby on Race and Parenting

Aired September 17, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon. .

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We have a busy hour, Don.

LEMON: We certainly do.

CAMEROTA: Great to be with you. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

LEMON: And, tonight, we're going to start with some breaking news, another black eye for the NFL, as the Arizona Cardinals' Jonathan Dwyer is arrested for domestic violence coming on the heels of Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson. Has the league lost all credibility and should Goodell go?

CAMEROTA: With all attention on child abuse, we have been having a lively candid debate about our own families' discipline style and the line between discipline and abuse. Chris Cuomo will join Don and me later in the hour. We will let you all in on the conversations we have been having off-camera.

LEMON: But we will begin with our breaking news tonight.

Arizona Cardinals backup running back Jonathan Dwyer arrested in connection with domestic abuse allegations.

CNN's Ted Rowlands joins us with more.

So, Ted, another arrest in the NFL for domestic violence. Why was Arizona Cardinals backup running back Jonathan Dwyer arrested?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don and Alisyn, it stems from an incident, actually two incidents that took place in late July, July 21 and 22.

According to Phoenix police, the two victims in this case, a 27-year- old female and an 18-month-old minor. According to police, they were called to the house where Dwyer was living, on the 27th of July, but left after the female victim came to the door and said he was not at home. He was, they now believe, hiding in the bathroom at the time. She didn't report this until September 11. And since then they had been investigating it. If you look at the

charges that he is facing now, he was arrested today and he's in the Maricopa County jail tonight. You look at his charges and you see how serious this is actually is. He is facing one aggravated assault charge, causing a fracture, one count of aggravated assault involving a minor, two counts of criminal damage, an account of preventing the use of a phone in an emergency, and another assault charge.

Police say that, on the second incident that Dwyer apparently threw a shoe in the direction of the 18-month-old. And it was during that incident that he apparently threw the cell phone of the 27-year-old victim out of a window so that she could not call police -- Don and Alisyn.

LEMON: The reaction from the Cardinals and the league, Ted?

ROWLANDS: The Cardinals immediately issued a statement. They also say they have been cooperating with police soon as they found out about it.

The statement says: "We became aware of these allegations this afternoon when notified by Phoenix police and are cooperating fully. Given serious nature of allegations, we have taken the immediate step to deactivate Jonathan from all team activities. We will continue to closely monitor this as it develops and evaluate additional information as it becomes available."

LEMON: All right, Ted Rowlands, thank you very much. We appreciate that.

All of this is tragic. And it's terrible news for the NFL.

So has the league lost its credibility? That's the question.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about all that, because joined by Lanny Davis, a legal crisis specialist, former special counsel to President Clinton, and columnist for "The Hill," Jeetendr Sehdev, a celebrity branding expert and professor of marketing at USC, and Lee Steinberg, an agent with Steinberg Sports and Entertainment.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here. You just heard the breaking news, Jonathan Dwyer arrested. You know Greg Hardy has been benched. Adrian Peterson out, Ray Rice suspended all of this in just the past couple of weeks. Can we blame Roger Goodell for not instituting some sort of coherent policy?

Lee, let me ask you.

LEE STEINBERG, SPORTS AGENT: Well, first of all, it's the commissioner that sets the tone. We should have had a domestic violence policy some years ago. He could have acted decisively. He had all the facts when the Rice case came up. There was no need to wait for the tape. There have been 56 incidents under his watch.

CAMEROTA: Does that mean he should go? Because so many people are calling for his head. Others are saying that give the guy a chance. Which one is it?

STEINBERG: I think we have an opportunity now to institute programs that, first of all, will train young men not to do this. The NFL has a great opportunity because it is a sport that is so popular.

I had Lennox Lewis, the heavyweight champion, cut a public service announcement that said real men don't hit women. Athletes can really lead the way here.

CAMEROTA: But can Roger Goodell lead the way? Or is he too tarnished as a result of all this?

STEINBERG: I don't think he is too tarnished. I think that they need to move very rapidly here to speak out.

There is no reason to delay in any of these cases. Under the personal conduct policy, you don't have to be convicted. An arrest is enough to go ahead and move.

LEMON: OK. I want to jump in here.

Lee, if I could just get you, should Roger Goodell go or not?

STEINBERG: I don't think he has a whole lot of credibility. But the owners will never fire him.

LEMON: All right, so, Lanny, should he go or not?

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: No, I don't think he should go that he owned up to an egregious mistake and is trying to rectify it, which is the right way to go, and make the mistake into a teaching moment.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let me get Jeetendr in here. And then I will continue on with your -- Jeetendr, do you think he should go or not?

JEETENDR SEHDEV, PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, USC: I think he is certainly -- that's certainly one issue. That is the leadership of the NFL. I think the issue is much bigger than Goodell. I think we have to look at the brand itself, the culture of the organization and see how we can start implementing policies and procedures that are actually going to shift that.

LEMON: I just wanted to get you all on that.

Lanny, here's the question to you. Despite what the NFL and teams have done or not done to try to tamp this down, this is a never-ending stream of bad news. So, what does he do now? You heard what Lee said and what he believes. But what do you think he should do now?

DAVIS: If you read the statement that he put out in trying to correct what he admitted to be a mistake, it is a very strong new policy of six games at least, suspension, and banishment for a second incident. And he can now implement that policy for incidents that he either wasn't aware or wasn't focused enough because he wasn't sensitive to the terrible stain of domestic violence in the country not just in the NFL but in the NBA and in other walks of life.

And this now is a teaching moment that maybe Roger Goodell can turn something terrible and mistaken that he did. If you read his complete statement, I think he is trying to make this into a teaching moment about domestic violence in America that as he said it's unacceptable under all circumstances is the statement he put out.

Maybe people say it's too late. But he's admitted to the mistake and he's trying to now rectify it.

CAMEROTA: Jeetendr, obviously, the tipping point would come if sponsors start pulling out and if viewers started turning away, which we haven't seen happen from the NFL yet.

But Indra Nooyi, she's the CEO of Pepsico, put out this statement tonight. "I am a mother, a wife and a passionate football fan. I am deeply disturbed at the repugnant behavior of a few players and the NFL's acknowledged mishandling of these issues is casting a cloud over the integrity of the league and the reputations of the majority of players who have dedicated their lives to a career they love. When it comes to child abuse and domestic violence, there is no middle ground, the behaviors are disgusting, absolutely unacceptable, and completely fly in the face of the values we at Pepsico believe in and cherish. Given Pepsico's longstanding relationship with the NFL, I know Roger Goodell, we have worked together for years. I know him to be a man of integrity. I am confident he will do the right thing for the league in light of the serious issues he is facing."

That is a vote of confidence, Jeetendr. Do you think that he is worthy of that?

SEHDEV: It certainly seems to be a vote of confidence. It's certainly not what the consumers are thinking.

And 48 percent of 3,000 Americans consider the NFL league to be sleazy. They described it as being sleazy. I think that is very telling in terms of how they actually perceive the organization to be. I think the NFL, you know, has a multitude of different challenges. It's certainly in crisis mode. I think that we need to not only look at the leadership. We need to look at what they're actually doing inside the organization, what sort of culture they have. What are their procedures and practices?

And then we also have to look at how the NFL can become more transparent and more open. It is really a cost of entry to U.S. teens and millennials in particular. Transparency, authenticity, really telling us what is going on is a first step toward correcting the NFL brand.

LEMON: Hey, Lee, I want you to listen to this. This is what Adrian Peterson's teammate -- one of his teammates said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CAPTAIN MUNNERLYN, MINNESOTA VIKINGS: I don't think it is fair at all. I think he should be able to play. He hasn't been convicted of nothing. Growing up, that was nothing, man. My mom, she always whipped me up and things like that. Man, it's just -- you know, in my culture, that's how I was raised, man, and that's how my mom, she raised her kids, and like I said, look at me now. I'm in the NFL.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There is a whole lot to discuss with that. But, just, Lee, it seems to be common defense that many people have raised, the type of treatment. Does it hurt the NFL that players speak out and defend their teammate?

STEINBERG: I don't think there are many of them who are doing that. One of the dangers here is that these players are so physically strong that they can hurt someone.

The specter of a 4-year-old being hit with a tree branch by someone who is so physically strong is daunting. But the players will get this right. The league will get this right. And we will see a program just like what they did with breast cancer. And they will take over a leadership role. And they will become a leader here in a dynamic way. Make no mistake.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: He's saying that it -- they will get it right. But what took so long to get it right in the first place?

STEINBERG: Well, whether it took long or not, this is by 2-1 the nation's most popular sport. People are going in droves to games. It's got that power. It's both the most popular TV show and most popular sport. It will come through in a dynamic way.

CAMEROTA: We like your optimism that this is a teachable moment. It certainly has started a conversation among us in the office and offices around the country.

But, Lanny, so many people when something goes wrong, the knee-jerk reaction is that we want the boss' head on a platter. So do you think that it is better to have Roger Goodell stay and fix it?

DAVIS: Well, first of all, he is not going to stay if Robert Mueller, former head of the FBI, and a man of unquestioned integrity, finds that he lied about not seeing the second videotape.

Anyone who saw the second videotape who didn't immediately suspend Ray Rice doesn't deserve to be commissioner. I happen to admire Indra Nooyi's statement because she's giving somebody the benefit of the doubt until he's investigated. And then we will see and let the facts speak for themselves.

But I also would like, while I have the chance, Don, this is not confined to the NFL. There are several stories that talk about NBA, the NHL, and, by the way, in nonprofessional sports in regular human life in America, women are beaten all the time and kids are abused and beaten all the time.

That kind of attitude, that my mother whipped me, it is OK, this is about violence. It's not just confined to the NFL. What Roger Goodell said, unacceptable under all circumstances, applies to more than to NFL. It applies to everyone in sports and outside of sports.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We have got to go for time. We're so sorry, Jeetendr. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Lee, and also Lanny Davis. We appreciate all of you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We have got much, much more on all of this, including the question raised by the NFL's child abuse allegations. What is discipline vs. abuse?

CAMEROTA: We have been talking about that a lot.

LEMON: Absolutely. Chris Cuomo will be here to debate that with us.

Plus, find out what America's dad, Bill Cosby, things about disciplining kids.

And also:

CAMEROTA: Stepped-up security in New York's Times Square tonight after threats from ISIS. Will arming Syrian rebels help combat the terror group or will it come back to haunt us? We will talk with two men who strongly disagree on this point.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Just a few hours ago, the House voted 273 to 156 to approve the president's plan to arm Syrian rebels. The Senate will vote tomorrow. And tonight there are lots of voices cautioning that this is a bad plan.

LEMON: Yes, absolutely.

Joining us now, two people who disagree on what the U.S. should do.

Pete Hoekstra is a former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and Michael Weiss is a contributor to Politico magazine and a columnist for "Now Lebanon."

A lot of folks on Capitol Hill are concerned about whether to arm the moderate rebels. Let's listen in and then we will talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Will not support arming or training the Syrian opposition forces. In Iraq alone, we spent the better part of eight years training, training Iraq police and military forces, about 280,000-person army at the cost of $20 billion to the American people, $20 billion.

And the first time they had to step up and defend their country, their people, and their way of life, what did they do? They folded in the face of ISIS, abandoning their equipment and facilities to the enemy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was Joe Manchin of West Virginia.

So, Representative Hoekstra, the House voted today to give the president authority to train and arm moderate Syrian rebels. You say we should be cautious about that. Why is that?

PETE HOEKSTRA (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, let's put this in context.

America has been fighting the threat from radical Islam for over 20 years. We have had successes and failures under both Democrat and Republican presidents. But the problem still persists and is maybe as great today as it has been at any time in the last 20 years.

As we look at this, there has been no discussion about what happened in Libya. That's not that long ago. We made the decision to align ourselves with the moderates. We found out that the moderates were not as moderate as what we thought they were. Once Gadhafi was gone, they turned on the United States.

And so we took a region of Northern Africa, a critical region that was stable, and was fighting radical jihadists with us, and we turned it into a haven and a playground for radical jihadists that now threaten the underbelly of Western Europe and the rest of Northern Africa. The last time we did this, we failed miserably. We haven't had a discussion about what we learned from that misadventure in Libya.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, Michael, why would this be a good idea to arm the Syrian rebels?

MICHAEL WEISS, POLITICO: Well, I actually think the current Obama administration policy, as it is, is not a good idea. Let me tell you why. There are three reasons.

First and foremost, the Free Syrian Army was founded not to fight ISIS. It was founded to fight and eventually overthrow the Assad regime. The administration has been quite clear that is not the priority, that is not the policy here.

We are secunding them to essentially become agents for the United States in prosecuting the war on terror. Second, the Free Syrian Army is being attacked most viciously not by ISIS, but by the Assad regime. Just before I came into the studio, "The New York Times" had an article saying that moderate rebels that we are currently supporting, arming, training, by the way, only, it's the CIA doing it, not the Pentagon, have been attacked mercilessly around the clock.

The only group in Syria that has not been bombarded is ISIS, because the regime wants to create an end state whereby the only solution to the only two alternatives are itself and these radical transnational jihadists.

Third, I think there is a fundamental problem in terms of the long- term strategy of winning hearts and minds in this part of the world, which is a necessary political component to any military campaign. That is to say we are now saying to Arab revolutionaries who have had sarin gas, barrel bombs, Scud missiles dropped on their heads for three years, prompting no U.S. intervention to rescue them, that now you are going to do our bidding for us.

Rather than do what you have claimed is necessary, and is a kind of fundamental role for your revolution, which is overthrowing this barbaric and vicious regime, which is responsible, according to our own State Department, for atrocities on the scale of the Holocaust...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What would you have the administration do then?

WEISS: The first order of business, I think, look, we're going to pour $500 million into the FSA and not protect them from the regime's air campaign?

At a fundamental, realist level, which is should -- I should hope the representative agrees with me -- this is a waste of money. If you're going to intervene in Syria -- and I'm sorry to say the president is not being forthright with the American people. If you are going to do this and do this successfully, it is going to require more, not less intervention.

LEMON: You have to let Representative Hoekstra get in take.

Go ahead. Do you agree with that?

HOEKSTRA: I think if you are going to seriously attack ISIL, you are going to need to have to have a larger U.S. involvement, but you also have to align yourself with the friends who have proven to be friends in the region for a long period of time.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Who are they?

HOEKSTRA: Very clear. I'm doing some work with the Kurds. The Peshmerga and the Kurdistan regional government, they have been our friends and our allies for a long time. They are the only one that have confronted ISIL and have defeated ISIL. It is time to engage with the Kurdistan regional government.

And they not only can have an impact, an effective impact in Iraq. They can also have an effective impact in Syria. So align with our friends, the people we know and who have proven themselves. Let's not try to find some new friends who we really don't know much about.

CAMEROTA: All right, it sounds like you are both sort of saying the same thing. It's different than what the administration is saying.

Pete Hoekstra, Michael Weiss, thanks so much for your expertise.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: ISIS clearly scoring some points in the propaganda war.

Up next, we're going to look at its masterful use of social media.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

Most American had never heard of ISIS until it posted videos of gruesome beheadings online. And for better or worse, ISIS knows how to get people's attention.

Here is CNN's Sara Sidner.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest ISIS propaganda video, slick, artfully shot, technically sophisticated, a message made to look like a movie trailer, complete with a Hollywood title, "Flames of War."

(on camera): We talked to some folks here in Hollywood paid to make movie trailers. They took a look at that ISIS video and said the sophistication simply floored them. They said it does exactly what movie trailers are intended to do, which is evoke emotion.

(voice-over): ISIS propaganda is popping up in many forms, a magazine, chat room, and the horrifying beheading videos. Has ISIS already terrorized America and the world?

Former Inspector General of Homeland Security Clark Ervin says their tactics are already succeeding without a single attack on U.S. soil or anywhere outside of Iraq and Syria.

CLARK ERVIN, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL OF HOMELAND SECURITY: We often forget a very simple fact. And the simple fact is that terrorism is only partly about killing people.

SIDNER: A CNN/ORC poll shows seven of 10 Americans believe ISIS has the resources to launch an attack against America. Analysts say it was the beheading videos that injected fear into the American psyche.

ERVIN: The sea change in public opinion about terror threats and about the importance of our engaging against ISIS is really notable. To that extent, ISIS has already won the propaganda battle against us.

SIDNER: Security analysts say one of the immediate threats is a lone wolf attack. And U.S. police commissioner William Bratton responded to reports that a blog associated with ISIS called for attacks on Times Square.

WILLIAM BRATTON, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Whether it's to guidelines on how to create a bomb, potential locations to attack, this is a new world, if you will, of the evolving world of terrorism. And we are staying ahead of it. We have been focused on it.

SIDNER: Iraq war veterans are frustrated by the ISIS surge.

BRENDAN URROZ, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: It gets me a little irritated how these individuals are able to prey on the weak, unarmed civilians, just causing terror, just because they want to -- their radical ideas want to control the whole Middle East.

SIDNER: Control the Middle East with a blend of savage violence, a very modern media message and, for now, an unscripted Hollywood ending.

Sara Sidner, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Does look like a Hollywood premiere.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: It looks exactly like a trailer, slick and highly produced.

And joining us to about all this is Alan Dershowitz. He's author of the new e-book "Terror Tunnels: The Case for Israel's Just War Against Hamas."

Alan, great to see you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's good to have you here instead of on Skype, right?.

CAMEROTA: Yes. It's good to have you in person.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: I appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: That's much easier.

You just saw some excerpts from that highly produced, slick new video that ISIS has put out. Are we in the media supposed to be showing videos or are we just somehow giving them a platform when we do that?

DERSHOWITZ: In my book "Terror Tunnels," I talked about how the media played into the hands of Hamas by the Hamas' dead baby strategy.

They purposely put their fighters and their tunnels near civilians so that Israel was put to the terrible choice, either don't fight back or you will kill civilians. And they're ready to show civilians on television who are dead, the dead baby strategy. It hurts Israel terribly in the court of public opinion.

ISIS has taken that to the next step. And it's use the media first to recruit. The beheadings are recruiting. Second, to frighten and scare. Now, the government should never, ever stop the media from doing anything it wants. Free speech is more important than anything. But I think the media has to put things in context. You shouldn't just show the dead baby, the beheading. It has to be put in a context.

LEMON: How much of this is propaganda and them scaring people? Because many wonder, where do they get their power from? Is this, indeed, Astroturf? Do they have this much power in a year?

They were al Qaeda before, sort of, you believe.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, they have the power.

There is a report in today's newspaper that Israeli intelligence has been working very closely with the United States on its attack on ISIS. And Israeli intelligence has told them they have access to 60 oil wells. They have hundreds of millions of dollars. They have control over property.

This is really dangerous.

LEMON: Over the course of a year, though?

DERSHOWITZ: They've done it amazingly quickly. I think it's taken a little more than a year. They've used a lot of resources that the United States gave the Iraqi army. And so it's combination. It's effective propaganda, but it's also substance. We have to be concerned.

And I'm going to make a prediction here. It's terrible. I hate to say this. We're not going to beat ISIS so easily, any more than Israel is able to beat Hamas, because they use the media. And they will -- once they hide their fighters among the civilians, and they will do it. They're doing it already. The United States will be put to the same challenge that Israel has been put to. Either don't attack them. If you attack them, you're going to kill civilians.

So, you know, in my book, "Terror Tunnels," I compare ISIS to Hamas. And we ought to be learning lessons from the way Israel has done this. And I hope we can do better.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I hear what you're saying. They have a lot of resources, and they've made great strides. But really, what we've heard, that there are really not that many: there are 20,000 to 30,000. Are we giving them too much power? Should we be reporting on them every hour?

DERSHOWITZ: I think reporting is one thing. Glorifying and showing their trailers is quite another thing.

I think they are quite strong. And they do pose a threat. And I think we have to learn lessons from other countries that have faced terrorist groups like this.

Now, the alliance that has been put together is mostly a symbolic alliance, because we don't want to be the crusaders. And many of the countries that are in that alliance criticized Israel for doing what it did, and yet, they're supporting the United States. The United States are either going to do targeted shellings. That's what Israel does. Not going to let them hide in any countries. That's what Israel does. We're going to destroy them and degrade them. So there is a parallel.

LEMON: Alan, we've got to go. Thank you very much. The author of the new e-book, "Terror Tunnels: A Case for Israel's Just War Against Hamas." Thank you, sir.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you so much.

LEMON: It's good to see you.

Adrian Peterson's child abuse story has many people examining their own feelings about how to discipline children.

CAMEROTA: So up next, our colleague, Chris Cuomo, will join Don and me to show you all what's been going on in our editorial meetings about this very sensitive topic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The Adrian Peterson child abuse case is creating a debate about where to draw the line between discipline and abuse and who gets to decide. Even if you didn't have kids you probably have an opinion based on how your parents raised you. I know you do, Don. And we've been having some pretty spirited conversations around the office about all of this.

So we invited "NEW DAY" anchor Chris Cuomo to join us for a no-holds- barred conversation.

Thanks for staying up late for us.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": What a pleasure to be with you two.

LEMON: Oh, come on. It's not. You're just saying that, because your...

CUOMO: It's corporal punishment.

CAMEROTA: OK. Do you -- do you spank your children?

CUOMO: I'm not allowed. I am...

LEMON: Would you like to spank your children?

CUOMO: I think that most parents often think about wanting to hit their kids, but it's -- that's because it's about you, and it's about your anger. And the hitting of the child is only satisfying to you, only useful to you. And that's something that I'm not saying. That's something that is fact.

I don't do it, because it doesn't work. I don't do it because I'm married to a beautiful, more sophisticated person who said she didn't want that for her kids. I know for a fact because I did an hour on this at "20/20" with the Yale Behavioral Center. They had 30 years of research. You can Google it, the man named Alan Kazdin. There's no question that hitting a kid doesn't make them learn better.

LEMON: I don't believe that.

CUOMO: Why?

LEMON: Because I think that -- I think we tend to sort of get polarized about this. We go to extremes. If you spank someone, "Oh, my gosh, people say it's abuse. You should never do it." And then someone's like, "You should always do it."

I think there is a happy medium. I had this conversation with my mother just last night, as a matter of fact. And she said, "When I was raising you, sometimes you just wouldn't" -- and as a single mother, after my dad died -- "sometimes you just wouldn't listen if I yelled, if I gave you positive reinforcement. The only thing that would get your attention is, 'Hey'" -- (SLAPS PALMS) -- "'I am trying to tell you to do something that's going to hurt you. You're running up and down the stairs. Eventually that running up and down the stairs will hurt you more than me spanking you on the derriere'."

CUOMO: But he says attention. It got his attention.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: Did it teach him not to do something?

LEMON: Yes. I didn't do it again.

CUOMO: It taught you fear.

CAMEROTA: Spanking and corporal punishment worked on you. It made you fly right.

LEMON: Yes. But it doesn't matter...

CUOMO: It worked despite it.

LEMON: Listen, I want to training with -- I hate to do this, but with -- with my dog. And fear is the same thing.

CUOMO: Where is that dog now?

LEMON: The dog is in South Carolina. That's another story. But -- but it doesn't matter whether it's fear or what have you. I'm saying this: because it stops you from doing it.

The same thing, when my nephew was running, was about to run in traffic. Yelling at him and getting his attention, he's thinking you're running behind him until you say, "Hey" -- (SLAPS PALMS) -- "don't do it again." He's not going to do it.

CAMEROTA: It stops him from doing it in that moment.

LEMON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But does it teach you in the long term?

LEMON: I think that stays with you.

CAMEROTA: I would submit that a good stern talking to also sends a message from your parents.

LEMON: Well, yes.

CAMEROTA: Then you actually learn what the lesson is they're trying to support.

LEMON: I don't disagree with that.

CAMEROTA: You can be scared of your parents who are yelling at you or talking to you in a stern voice.

LEMON: I don't disagree with that. Some kids listen to that. Other kids don't. I don't think that there is a bible on how to -- because each individual, that's why it is called individuals.

CUOMO: No.

LEMON: Because we are all different.

CUOMO: Look, we're definitely all different. And we can hold hands and can pray on it later on.

What I'm trying to say is this. This is not a matter of opinion. You teach a kid when you hit them, "Oh, well that got my attention." No, it scared you. "Oh, but I love my mother, and I wound up being fine." You were fine despite that. Despite that happening to you, you were fine.

CAMEROTA: But even with all that research...

CUOMO: The research is clear.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and I believe you, but 80 percent of preschoolers in this country are spanked. So the message is...

CUOMO: Because it's easier for the parent. Because it gives us cultural. It gives us satisfaction.

LEMON: It's not just cultural...

CAMEROTA: Let's face it, your parents did it to you. And that's what, I think that you're arguing. Which is that you do what you learn.

LEMON: But my parents didn't beat me. They didn't abuse me.

CAMEROTA: No.

LEMON: It was to get my attention. And then -- but people say you should talk to your kids. You should give positive reinforcement. Why can't you say, "Guess what, little Chris? I didn't want to hit you. I didn't want to spank you, but that was the own thing that, the only way that got your attention."

CUOMO: That's fine. That's a great rationale.

LEMON: So if you don't do it again, then I won't...

CUOMO: It's also teaching a child that violence has a necessity sometimes in life.

LEMON: I don't think it's violence.

CAMEROTA: My issue with it is that...

CAMEROTA: You're hitting someone. How is it not violence?

LEMON: We're saying spanking. This is not violent. (SLAPS PALM) That's not violent.

CAMEROTA: Ow.

CUOMO: But what is it then? What is it? Other than an invitation to a butt kicking from down the line.

LEMON: What's more violent is if I get hit by a car. What's more violent is if I fall down the stairs and break my head. That's more violent.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: I understand that you have to grab a child at the moment of a crisis.

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: But I would also say what I think is interesting is that parents don't always realize, is that as parents you hold all the cards. You have all the power. You tell your kid when they're going to eat. You tell your kid when they're going to go to bed.

LEMON: So we should starve our kids?

CAMEROTA: No.

LEMON: We should sleep deprive them?

CAMEROTA: No, because there's that power differential, you can do whatever -- you don't have to hit them.

LEMON: You don't have to.

CAMEROTA: You hold all of the -- so you could take away something. You could take away a privilege. You could send them to their room. You could tell them no more television. Whatever it is. You didn't have to rely on hitting.

LEMON: I want to make this perfectly clear. I'm not saying -- I think that that should be a last resort. And I think over the last couple days of watching what's going on and doing research and looking at the pictures from Adrian Peterson, I have evolved on this, because I think, "Hey, you know, you can spank your kid." But I think that we as a society need to re-examine that.

But I don't think that it's something we should say, "Oh, in all cases you shouldn't do it." We should not do that.

CAMEROTA: But when you say you've evolved on it, that means what?

LEMON: Because I -- you know, my initial reaction was "I was" -- as Chris said -- "I was a kid, this is how I was treated. And I saw, you know, the evidence for at least, from my own personal, you know, experience is this."

But, I think that we need to re-examine that. And especially for me as an African-American. Because the question is where did you learn that from? Was that learned from the slave master? Getting the switch? Being beaten? Is that...

CUOMO: How is that a rationale?

LEMON: It is.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: ... ignorance. How is it -- I keep hearing this. Well, you know, maybe it was passed down from slave culture. Why would that be a rationale to continue a practice like this? Isn't that the last thing you'd want to continue?

LEMON: Some people had to go and get the whip. That's part of the...

CAMEROTA: Why not break that cycle?

LEMON: That's what I'm saying right now. That's what I'm telling you.

CUOMO: But I'm saying I keep hearing that as a justification for cultural...

LEMON: I don't think it's a justification. I think it's part of the story. It's part of the narrative now.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

LEMON: It's part of something that we need to...

CAMEROTA: One of the things that I heard...

LEMON: Not a justification.

CAMEROTA: ... was it was part of the culture maybe, and that by now saying we shouldn't do it, it sort of indicts your grandma.

LEMON: Yes. That's true.

CAMEROTA: And it indicts your mother in a way that you don't want to do.

CUOMO: That's true, but it's not just the south. It's everywhere. And how do we know?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: The law recognizes one ability to hit outside of self-defense. And it's a child.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: State to state, it varies. Some states allow paddling in school. But New York state allows it with an open hand. It is so primitive.

My one regret about the coverage so far that we've been doing, is we've been covering it very heavily and, I believe, well. This is one of those actual -- hackneyed phrase -- the teachable moment. And what we're doing is we're relying on a cultural stereotype about how we make people good people that just doesn't hold water any more.

LEMON: That's what I mean by the extreme. How you make people good people. It doesn't mean that you're a bad person or a good person because you don't listen. That's not -- that's really not it. In the moment, people react. And as I said, you have to do what you have to do. I don't really think...

CUOMO: You don't have to do it. What does that mean? You should examine what you're saying sometimes.

CAMEROTA: You have to control -- you have to learn how to control yourself.

LEMON: OK, fine. You don't have to do it. And then I fall down the stairs and I break my head.

CUOMO: So you think that the thing that keeps you from falling down stairs was the fact that someone beat your ass?

LEMON: In that moment. In that moment.

CUOMO: That's why you think you didn't fall down the stairs?

LEMON: In that moment, yes. Of course.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You were saying someone beat my ass, but that's not -- someone didn't beat my ass. My mom spanked me. That is not a beating. There is a difference.

CAMEROTA: I think that what we've learned is that children will mimic any behavior. Whatever behavior you model for them, they'll mimic it. So if you spank them, then you as an adult will spank your children. If you yell at them, the kids -- you will yell at the kids on the playground. That's my point, in fact. That they say that it heightens aggression.

CUOMO: Of course it does.

CAMEROTA; Kids who have been subjected to corporal punishment...

CUOMO: Of course it does.

CAMEROTA: It heightens their aggression on the playground.

LEMON: A beating does. A spanking doesn't.

CAMEROTA: They're mimicking you.

LEMON: But also they'll mimic you. If you ignore their bad behavior, they're going to ignore you. Same thing.

CAMEROTA; Yes, it's whatever you model for them.

CUOMO: Actually, if you ignore their bad behavior, it usually curtails it. Because most of the time, the bad behavior is a reaching out for attention. But put that analogy aside.

LEMON: So why not, if you spank them, then...

CUOMO: Let me ask you. In the moment it scares them. In the moment they don't want to do it. In the moment they don't want to happen again. But let me ask you this, Don Lemon.

When you were a kid after one of those episodes would happen, would you never do it again? Or would you think to yourself I have to figure out how to do this where I don't get another spanking?

LEMON: Honestly?

CUOMO: Be honest.

LEMON: Probably, I would never do it again. But knowing how bad I was, it was probably a combination. I'm not kidding you.

CUOMO: I think you're hedging, because it undercuts your position.

LEMON: No, no, no.

CUOMO: Because that's what the research shows.

LEMON: We're being honest. I'm just -- I told you, I evolved over the past couple days. I -- no, I wouldn't do it again. Because I didn't want to get in trouble.

CUOMO: But you must have done it again, because you kept getting in trouble.

LEMON: No. It was for different things.

CUOMO: But that's the point.

CAMEROTA: Don is interesting, because 48 hours ago he started with, "It worked on me. I fell in line. It works on us. You know, this is our culture." And now tonight you are saying different.

CUOMO: I wish everybody were evolving as quickly as Don is. The problem is they're not.

LEMON: And I want to get this clear. It's not just -- it's prevalent in the African-American community.

CUOMO: It's prevalent everywhere, though.

LEMON: Thank you. It's prevalent everywhere. And it's not about socioeconomics either.

CUOMO: When this guy, Alan Kazdin -- I want people to look him up. I don't have any monetary interest in throwing his name around, although it is Yale. I did go to Yale. But I'll tell you this. He said this to me. And I think parents, everybody, needs to keep this idea in their head. He said, "You want to spank your kid. Go ahead. Spank your kid. But know this: you're doing it because it makes you feel better, because it does nothing good for the kid."

LEMON: I don't think there's anything about it that makes a parent feel good in their right mind about that.

CUOMO: When you're angry, you want to hit.

LEMON: That doesn't mean -- it doesn't necessarily come from anger.

CAMEROTA: Chris, we need to give you the hard wrap.

CUOMO: I don't want -- I don't want to see what happens if I've don't do what Don wants. He hasn't evolved enough.

LEMON: This is a new day for you, a new night. Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: See you tomorrow morning on "NEW DAY."

LEMON: All right.

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much for the conversation.

LEMON: Thank you very much, Chris Cuomo, the anchor from "NEW DAY." We'll be right back.

CUOMO: I've missed you guys, good to see you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

LEMON: A good talk.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: As we try to define the line between discipline and abuse, who better to look to than the iconic TV dad, Bill Cosby. He has been talking about it and joking about parenting issues for years now.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now, the man who just wrote the definitive biography of Bill Cosby, Mark Whitaker, author of "Cosby: His Life and Times." Great to have you with us.

MARK WHITAKER, AUTHOR, "COSBY: HIS LIFE AND TIMES": Great to be here.

LEMON: Great book.

CAMEROTA: It is interesting to talk about Bill Cosby tonight, because he is the, you know, icon of American parenthood because of "The Cosby Show." But it's interesting: we dug up an old clip from 1983 about him talking in his stand-up routine about how he really disciplines his kids. Let's watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: Now, my job is I am the goalie. The children come at me. I kick them back into play.

Now, the beatings are over, not because I see my wife, but because I hear all of upstairs going (MAKES WEEPING NOISES).

Now here's the funny part. My wife comes downstairs with a broken stick. Throws it on the table, sits down, and begins to talk out loud to nobody. "Going to tell me that you are not going to do something when I tell you to do something. I mean, you move when I say move. Think I carried you in my body for 9 months so you can roll your eyes at me. I'll roll that little head of yours down on the floor. You don't know who you're fooling with. I'll beat you until you can't grow anymore."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Mm-hmm. A lot of parents are at home, going, "Amen, brother" at that bit.

WHITAKER: Well you, know, that -- that was from a concert film that he did in 1983, called "Bill Cosby: Himself" that led directly to "The Cosby Show." I mean, his whole point of view in parenthood in that -- in that concert film was the basis for the show.

And you remember that in the first episode of that show, he has that confrontation with Theo about his report card. And it ends with him saying, "I brought you into this world, I'll take you out."

LEMON: Right.

WHITAKER: But for Cosby, it was always a generational thing. Because that's something his dad had actually said to him growing up. But he wanted the Huxtables to be a family where people talked their problems out. You did not see -- you never saw a spanking in the Huxtable household.

LEMON: Yes. Let's get to the book. It's fascinating. This book took me back to "I Spy." It took me back to the '70s when he did his answers to blaxploitation. Let's do it again, "Uptown Saturday Night." I mean, he has really run the gamut and he's gone...

WHITAKER: He's been a pioneer in so many areas. "The Cosby Show" was so big that people forget, you know, all the other ways in which he, you know, advanced entertainment, the world of entertainment. So first there's the comedy albums and stand-up, which he revolutionized storytelling. Then he becomes the first African-American star of primetime television, "I Spy."

LEMON: It was him and Diahann Carroll.

WHITAKER; Right, it was. But he was -- he was first; he led to Diahann Carroll. Right?

LEMON: Right.

WHITAKER: Then he was in the forefront of children's television with "Sesame Street," "The Electric Company" and then -- and then "Fat Albert." And then, an African-American man becomes the most successful advertising pitchman in the country.

LEMON: JELL-O pudding pops.

WHITAKER: And that's all before "The Cosby Show," which is the dominant television show of the 1980s. Revives the sitcom and NBC.

LEMON: You know, he -- he started, I guess, a couple years ago, I think it was back in 2004 when he starts to talk about -- about what African-Americans should do, he believes. But he gets a lot of criticism for that. But he wanted to hire more African-Americans with his production company in the '60s and '70s. Why does he get sort of painted with that brush?

WHITAKER: You're alluding to the famous speech that he gave in 2004, the 50th anniversary of Brown v Board of Education, in which, in a way that was not planned by the way, he sort of want off about behavior in the black community, you know, not respecting parents. Not respecting education and so forth.

One of the things I show in the book is that he always had those point of views -- that point of view. For a long time he was criticized for not being -- for not talking about race, for not talking about politics in his comedy. That was a deliberate choice on his part.

But behind the scenes in his private life, he always supported civil rights causes. He was always pushing to empower black folks, to hire more blacks, you know, in every production, that he, that he worked on. But you know, it was only really in the last ten years that he was comfortable, going public with a lot of those views.

CAMEROTA: So very, very quickly. We only have a few seconds. What surprised you about him as you gathered this book together?

WHITAKER: Well you know, he's had so many successes. You don't know about all the failures and the setbacks and how resilient he was. You don't know about all the tragedy in his life, starting with a very poor childhood, including the death of his only son. So you know, it's really a Shakespearean life.

LEMON: Yes. I went through controversy a couple years back, and I got a phone call early one morning. And I hadn't slept, because I had been working all night. And it was Bill Cosby. And it was like, I know this -- it's not a joke, because it sounds just like bill Cosby.

CAMEROTA: Wow.

LEMON: We talked for, like, two hours.

CAMEROTA: What a great call.

LEMON: Saw him in Red Bank, New Jersey, a couple months ago. Took me forever to get -- and he's still funny.

WHITAKER: Yes, two hours. Two hours. Just sitting down. Telling stories.

LEMON: Yes.

WHITAKER: And everybody is.

LEMON: We've got to go. But everyone is. And there's an interesting story about Joan Rivers. We could go on and on. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Bill Cosby, life and times. Great to see you, Mark. Thanks so much.

LEMON: Great book. We'll be right back, everyone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Make sure you tune in tomorrow night, the true crime story of Whitey, United States of America, versus James J. Bulger. That's tomorrow night, at 9: p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

LEMON: And that is it for us tonight. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: "AC 360" starts right now.