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At This Hour

Australian Police Stop Major Terrorist Plot; Kerry, Hagel to Testify Before the House; Interview with Rep. Jim Himes; NYC Raises Security Measures; Decision Day in Scotland

Aired September 18, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Australian police stop a major terrorist plot. They say ISIS supporters planned to target a random citizen, behead him or her in public, and then drape a black ISIS flag over the headless body.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Decision day in Scotland. Will there be a messy divorce if voters decide to leave the United Kingdom, or will there be reconciliation?

BERMAN: And, he has conquered the stage and screen dressed as a man and a woman. And now he's coming after your computer. Neil Patrick Harris, changing art, changing technology, and best of all, visiting us here live @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: Hello everyone, I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: I'm Michaela Pereira. Those stories and much more, ahead @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: And we do begin with a horrifying terror plot with ties to ISIS discovered by authorities in Australia before the alleged conspiracy could unfold.

PEREIRA: Yeah, a pair of suspects are in custody in what officials are describing as a plan by extremists to carry out a public execution. The grim details are driving home fears that Middle Eastern terrorism could find its way throughout the world and to the West. Our Senior International Correspondent, Ivan Watson, has the very latest.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Michaela and John, as the Obama administration works to gather a coalition to combat ISIS, a key American ally, Australia, announced that it foiled an alleged home-grown terrorist plot that it says was linked to the ISIS militant group.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON: Pre-dawn raids across Australia's largest city. Authorities are calling it the country's biggest ever anti-terror operation. Armed with dozens of search warrants, Australian security forces detained at least 15 suspects. The Australian media reporting disturbing details. The suspects allegedly planned to film the public beheading of a random individual and then drape the body in the black flag of ISIS. COMMISSIONER ANDREW SCIPIONE, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA POLICE: It

raises serious concern that right at the heart of our communities, we have people planning to conduct random attacks. And today, we've worked together to make sure that that didn't happen. We have, in fact, disrupted that particular attack.

WATSON: Among the suspects detained, a man named Omar John Ozari, who appeared briefly in a Sydney court, charged with a terrorism-related offense. He did not enter a plea. His neighbors, shocked a suspected terrorist lived next door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never thought I would see anything like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's actually quite frightening, my heart is actually pounding.

WATSON: Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, says he believes at least 60 Australians are fighting alongside ISIS and other militant groups in the Middle East. He's repeatedly voiced fears these Australian Jihadis could pose a threat if they ever come home. Australian Intelligence revealed ISIS was urging home-grown sympathizers to carry out attacks in Australia.

TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Quite direct exaltations were coming from an Australian who is apparently quite senior in ISIL to networks of support back in Australia to conduct demonstration killings here in this country.

WATSON: Last week, Australia raised its threat level to high for the first time in the country's history. Warning a terrorist attack is likely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON: The Australian Prime Minister on Thursday addressed Australian troops that are headed to the Middle East. He argued that by fighting ISIS, they would be protecting the Iraqi people and by extension, the people of Australia. Michaela and John?

BERMAN: That is chilling. We'll have more on that in a little bit.

Meanwhile, here at home, President Obama's strategy to battle ISIS front and center on Capitol Hill. @THISHOUR, House lawmakers will hear from the two men leading the nation's defense and diplomacy. Secretary Chuck Hagel starts testifying in about 10 minutes from now. He'll speak for the House Armed Services Committee. And at the bottom of the hour, Secretary of State, John Kerry, will testify before the House Foreign Affairs Committee. We'll bring you the key parts of both of these hearings, live.

PEREIRA: Now all of this comes on the heels of a House vote, authorizing the U.S. military to train and equip moderate Syrian rebels to combat ISIS. The Senate could vote on the measure as early as today. So lawmakers in both parties are certainly divided over the president's plan. We saw it in the House vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This vote the yeas are 273, the nays are 156. The amendment is adopted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: More than a third of the representatives voted no. 71 of them Republican, 85 Democrats, including our guest, Congressman Jim Himes, he's a Democrat from Connecticut, and a member of the House Intelligence Committee. He joins us now. Good morning. Thanks for joining us.

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Good morning, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Sir, I want you to maybe outline for us, why exactly it is that you oppose the arming and training of Syrian rebels. What exactly are your specific concerns?

HIMES: There are a bunch of them. I should state upfront that like most of my colleagues here, I'm in favor of an aggressive approach against ISIS. I, for example, favor the air strikes. There have been almost 200 of them in the last couple weeks that have seriously knocked them back on their heels. But when you're talking about essentially creating a proxy army of so-called moderate Syrians, that's a very different calculation.

So what are the concerns? Number one, these are young men, and I've met some of them, as a part of my role on the Intelligence Committee, who are seething with hatred for President Assad of Syria. We call them the opposition, opposition, of course to Assad. So it's unclear to me and has been unclear how you take these people and say we know you really want you to go after Assad, we want you to take on these people next to you here, ISIS, because that's the threat to us. That's a very, very complicated mission.

Then you've got issues about how much do we control them? We're gonna arm them, we're gonna train them, we're gonna send them into a place where we cannot go. There's a possibility that weapons wind up in bad hands, human rights violations get committed. So on balance, and this is not an easy one, but on balance I did not think that plan was sufficiently detailed and was sufficiently likelihood of success to support it.

BERMAN: So Congressman, the question becomes if you don't support these folks going in to fight ISIS on the ground in Syria, who does the fighting? Do you support the use of U.S. ground troops?

HIMES: No, no. And look, take a big step back here, while ISIS and ten other groups like ISIS are a threat to United States and the West, the underlying conflict here, the conflict between Sunni and Shia, the conflict between extremists and moderates, between Syrians and Saudis, between Saudis and Iranians, these are not our fights.

And so we shouldn't think, that the presumption is that we need to be out front on everything. It is up to the players in the region to, while we can lead with air strikes and we can organize international coalitions, they have to solve the underlying problems. If they don't solve the underlying problems, we'll be talking 20 years from now, talking about whether we should increase air strikes or increase the support we're giving to whatever group of rebels at that point happens to be aligned with our strategy.

PEREIRA: You talk about the challenges of all this. But you well know, as we do, that air strikes aren't always without their problems as well. They're hard to do in Syria when you think about how the fact is, this is not -- like we've talked to generals and colonels here about the fact this is not, you know, there are barracks of ISIS fighters. There aren't front lines of ISIS. They're within the population. You talk about the potential for humanitarian crisis, we could see civilians in the cross hairs here.

HIMES: We need to be very clear with the American people about what it is that we mean when we say victory. The facts are there to see. Air strikes can knock a foe back on its heels. You know, ISIS is in a lot worse place than it was four weeks ago. We can force them to disperse. We can take out their armor, because we can find it. But, air strikes alone simply means that they go into caves and villages. No you get to troops on the ground. Troops can enter caves and enter homes.

But look, we had hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan for ten years. What we do when we do that and when anybody does that, is you simply put a lid on the underlying problems. You take those ground troops away and those problems are still there which is, of course, what we're seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan which takes me back to the need to address those underlying problems.

BERMAN: Congressman, how hard was it for you to split from the president on this vote in arming and training the Syrian rebels yesterday? He's the leader of your party. What more do you want to see from the president in terms of leadership?

HIMES: You know, he is a member of my party and I support him on most things. I'm profoundly aware of the fact that my role is one of Representative. And my role is one, if you read the Constitution, of acting as a check and balance on executive authority. First and foremost, I am a Representative, a member of the United States Congress, whose mission, really, is to make sure that power is not concentrated in any one hand. It wasn't that hard. Obviously I want to support the president. I think he's taken some really brutal and unfair attacks. That doesn't mean that you just line up when you think something he's proposing may not be a good idea.

PEREIRA: That's a fair point. We appreciate your candid comments. Thanks so much for joining us, Congressman, we appreciate it.

HIMES: Thank you very much.

PEREIRA: From arming rebels in the Mid East to battling terrorists. Intent on attacking the West. Ahead at the hour, our military national security analysts weigh in on threats to the U.S. homeland.

BERMAN: And then changing gears, Scotland voting on parting ways with the U.K. We'll tell you why this 307-year-old relationship could finally end and end ugly.

PEREIRA: Plus Doogie Howser, Barney Stinson, whatever you prefer to call him, we call him actor and Tony winner, Neil Patrick Harris. Or NPH, as I like to say. He's joining us in studio to talk about his newest role. It's a good one. That's ahead @THISHOUR.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: In Australia, fears of terrorism have suddenly become very, very real. Authorities say two suspects are in custody now after they discovered a horrifying plot by militants tied to ISIS.

BERMAN: Their plan, allegedly, was to kidnap and behead someone in the public and then drape the victim in an ISIS flag.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER ANDREW SCIPIONE, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA POLICE: The violence was to be perpetrated on a member of the public on the streets and that certainly, at this stage, was at a very high level.

ABBOTT: The fact that we are free, we are pluralist, we are tolerant, we are welcoming, we are accepting. All of these in their eyes are wrong. That's what makes us a target.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Tony Abbott, the Prime Minister of Australia, there with those comments. Meanwhile, back here in the United States, authorities in New York are expanding their show of force on the heels of an online post reportedly from ISIS that encouraged so-called lone wolves to attack tourist attractions and locations in the city and other areas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER OF INTELLIGENCE, NYPD: Today, you will likely see a higher police presence in and around Times Square, in and around mass transit, in and around other targets while we assess this information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: John Miller, whom you heard right there, added that authorities are working to trace the source of the online post and, more importantly, anyone who might use the bomb making instructions it included.

PEREIRA: Joining us, our military analyst Retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona and national security analyst Juliette Kayyem. Good to have you both with us. Thank you so much. Juliette, I'll start with you. What do you make of this latest threat against New York City? Times Square, specifically. We know authorities are assessing the threat. What are you thoughts?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's probably a smart thing for them to do, just given, as John Miller said, that they're trying to assess how real this is. I mean, I was in charge of intergovernmental for the Department of Homeland Security. You have 50 states, thousands of cities and towns, and each is going to be able to judge its threat stream and make decisions based on density.

There's big events in New York coming up, the U.N. meeting as well as the Jewish holiday. So this seems like a very smart and rational approach. It's not over the top, until they can figure out what it was about.

BERMAN: And, Juliette, when you are working for homeland security in the United States and you see a threat like the one we're only hearing about today from Australia, where people tied to ISIS allegedly wanted to behead someone in the public, drape their body with an ISIS flag, how concerned does that make you here in the United States?

KAYYEM: I mean, it's obviously part of an atmosphere of ISIS trying to do sort of small attacks and make everyone sit on edge. But we're pretty good in the United States about separating apples from oranges. In other words, just because that's happening in Australia, unless there's evidence that something like that is happening in the United States, it's -- the smarter thing is to figure out what's happening in Australia and whether it has impacted the United States.

The bigger issue for our analysis is each city and each state is going to be very different in terms of the threats facing them, and it takes a nimble approach, like we're seeing in New York, to assess the -- assess and then respond to the threat here.

PEREIRA: And then we think about assessing or responding, so no coincidence that Australia sort of joined -- not sort of -- joined the battle against ISIS. You see this awful, gruesome threat, thankfully uncovered in time to thwart it. Is it worth doubling down, one has to wonder, Rick?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, this is an attempt by ISIS to intimidate those countries that might sign up for the coalition. You saw as soon as we announced our air strikes and what we were going to do, they came out with this very slickly produced video. Now the Australians announced that they're going to commit, and commit fully -- the Australians are right there; they're going to provide air and some advisers, same effort we're going to do. And so now you see this threat against Australia. So it's an attempt to let other nations know that if you sign up for this, we're going to come after you as well.

BERMAN: But what do you do about that? I mean, it's not like a bully in a schoolyard where you just ignore them and they go away. I mean, doesn't there need to be a response to ISIS at some level?

FRANCONA: Well, the response will be overseas. Juliette adequately described what we're doing here. But the real response will be taking the fight to them. And when we start actually doing things against ISIS -- we've started on a very small scale in Iraq -- but we really have to take the fight to them in Syria. That's where their headquarters is; that's where all the stuff is emanating from. Racca seems to be their center of gravity now. And when we get to that point, then we'll start making an impact. But until then we're going to have to deal with things just like this.

PEREIRA: Horrifying and terrifying. Juliette Kayyem, Colonel Rick Francona, great to have you both here. Thank you for that.

BERMAN: Ahead for us @THISHOUR, Scotland decides whether it will stay part of the United Kingdom or make that kingdom much less united. We'll tell you why so many people in Scotland want to part ways and how messy the whole thing is about the stuff and the logic, just the whole thing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So in Scotland, at this very moment, they're voting on a deeply existential question.

PEREIRA: It's a big one.

BERMAN: Should Scotland be an independent country? Now they have to answer with a simple yes or no. But that answer will affect Scotland, England, the entire UK, economically and politically forever. Even President Obama is weighing in on the vote via Twitter. He says, "The UK is an extraordinary partner for America and a force for good in an unstable world. I hope it remains strong, robust, and united."

PEREIRA: Well, this vote comes after a two-year campaign of mounting intensity. The final poll of polls show the no campaign leading with a very small margin at 52 percent.

BERMAN: Now if this whole thing seems beyond comprehension to the American mind, that is because it is. This would be no simple breakup or conscious uncoupling; this would be historic and this would be messy. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): If we learned one thing from "Braveheart", it's --

MEL GIBSON, ACTOR: That they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!

BERMAN: Because if they do take it, Mel Gibson might have added, we will probably vote to get it back in 307 years or so.

(BAGPIPES)

BERMAN: This may be a classic relationship struggle over who wears the kilt in this family, but if there is a breakup, it could be the messiest divorce ever.

What do you do with the flag? The blue part of the Union Jack is Saint Andrew's Cross -- that's Scotland's. What do you do with the pound? The UK says they keep that. The oil, well, that's in Scotland, so you know who wants that. The bombs?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have we shown you how to start a nuclear war yet?

BERMAN: They seemed important in "The Queen." You can bet the UK wants the arsenal that resides in Scotland.

And what do you do with Wales? Well, that stays in the UK, but maybe Scotland can visit Wednesday nights and every other weekend.

As confusing as the arguments over the stuff might be, the logic behind the arguments might be even more so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both sides of this argument have valid points, the freedom-loving heirs of the highland tradition, and those who enjoy crawling like worms beneath British boots.

BERMAN: Those freedom loving heirs of the highland tradition, as Groundskeeper Willie, calls them, say that while they absolutely, positively want their independence, they absolutely, positively want to keep the queen. Because nothing, I mean nothing says freedom like a monarchy.

And nothing says independence like the United States of America, which is why Hillary Clinton told the BBC --

HILLARY CLINTON, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: I would hate to have you lose Scotland --

BERMAN: What does the United States really know about splitting from the UK? That never works.

In closing, no matter what happens to the flag, the pound, the nukes or the oil, no matter what happens in the actual vote, Scotland will always be part of Great Britain. It will never be part of England; the Irish, part of neither. Northern Ireland will still be part of the United Kingdom, which may no longer be as united, but Elizabeth will be queen of all of it.

So keep calm and carry on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Have I told you today how much I love you, John Berman?

BERMAN: Some people on Twitter were suggesting I was being patronizing to the people of Scotland. That was not my intention. My intention is to only point out how confusing this all is.

PEREIRA: You know what's really interesting; my paternal grandmother is Scottish. And I think a lot of people have been wondering -- we engaged some of the conversation on Twitter. What Scottish American, Scottish Canadians, because there's ancestors all over these two great nations, what they think? Do you know what I mean? Because they're apart from it. Where are their hearts? I'd be very curious to hear. BERMAN: Yes, and you can vote as young as 16 years old. 16-year-olds can vote in this.

PEREIRA: I wonder which way they're going to go?

BERMAN: I don't know. I've been saying that what 16-year-old would vote against independence? You lose your credibility as a 16-year-old if you say you want to be ruled by a monarchy. But a lot of people have told me that some of these kids have thought about this really, really carefully, and they thought about what the economic implications are, and they may vote no.

PEREIRA: Big -- I mean, it's unprecedented.

BERMAN: I think it's epic.

PEREIRA: 307 year history.

BERMAN: I think it's fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

PEREIRA: We'll be watching. Tomorrow morning they should know the results.

BERMAN: We could even know late tonight. Stay with CNN for the very latest.

PEREIRA: All right, ahead @THISHOUR, John Kerry is going to testify before the House Foreign Affairs Committee. We are watching that for you and will bring you any pertinent comments that he makes.

BERMAN: Also the Senate may vote today on whether the U.S. should arm Syrian rebels to fight against ISIS. Our political analysts will weigh in on all the inside deals being made.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)