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Nancy Grace
Nicotine Murder Update; Search for Missing UVA Co-Ed
Aired September 18, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live to the California beach town of San Clemente. He had it all, a brand-new job, a brand-new and much
younger wife, living off an insurance jackpot of nearly half a million dollars. But it all comes crashing down when suspicions hone in on the
loving husband. After he pressures his gorgeous wife, Linda, to up her life insurance policy to $1.4 million, Linda found dead with lethal levels
of nicotine throughout her body.
But wait! Linda`s a non-smoker. Did her loving husband murder Linda Curry with a deadly dose of nicotine?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A California husband is accused of poisoning his wife with fatal levels of nicotine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fatal levels...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How lethal it is...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... of nicotine in her system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To cash in on her $400,000 life insurance policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. To the California beach town of San Clemente. He had it all, a brand-new job, a brand-new and much younger wife, the two of them
living off an insurance jackpot of nearly a half a million dollars. All that comes crashing down when suspicions hone in on him, the loving
husband. After he pressures his gorgeous wife, Linda, to up her life insurance policy to $1.4 million, Linda found dead with lethal levels of
nicotine in her body.
But whoa! Whoa! Wait a minute! Linda is a non-smoker. Did her so-called loving husband murder Linda with a deadly dose of nicotine and start a
brand-new life with a new job and a younger wife?
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Candace Trunzo, senior news editor with Mailonline.com. Candace, thank you for being with me. I`ve
never heard -- and I`ve seen plenty of autopsies and I`ve waited for plenty of toxicology reports to come back in, and never once, Linda (sic) have I
seen death by nicotine. I mean, it makes me think of somebody lying there being forced to smoke cigarette after cigarette after cigarette. But this
was an injection -- we believe anyway, an injection of liquid nicotine.
What do you know, Candace?
CANDACE TRUNZO, MAILONLINE.COM (via telephone): Well, he had been injecting her, allegedly, for quite some time. About nine months into the
marriage she started having these symptoms, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and...
GRACE: Wait! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Candace Trunzo from Mailonline.com, wait. You said just nine months into the marriage?
He didn`t even have the decency to wait a while?
TRUNZO: No.
GRACE: He was already sick and tired of her after nine months?
TRUNZO: Right. I mean, I think that -- it looks as though he was in it for the money from the beginning. And in fact, just shortly after they got
married, there was this barbecue, and he bragged -- I mean, he bragged about being able to kill somebody with an injection, administer an
injection that -- and he would never get caught doing it. He bragged it to her boss at a barbecue, so...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Let me get that straight. Candace Trunzo joining me from Mailonline.com. So they`re having a barbecue, I guess at their home,
and he starts bragging that he could kill somebody and never get caught?
TRUNZO: Exactly. He said that he could make a deadly poison in his garage, administer it to someone without getting caught, and he bragged
about it. And this was just months before his wife started coming down with these horrible symptoms.
GRACE: Liz, let me see their million-dollar home again. I mean, this guy had it all! Why can`t people just be happy? Look at this place! Now,
that is some shack right there. What is that, like, a four-car garage maybe? I don`t know. Three? Look at that.
So he`s living in this mansion. He`s got this gorgeous wife. After nine months, Candace, she starts having symptoms. What are the symptoms?
TRUNZO: Well, she was nauseous. She was vomiting. She had diarrhea. She was tired. And she went to the hospital about nine months in, and doctors
could not determine exactly what was wrong. But police asked her if anyone has harmed her, if anyone would harm her, and she said that she suspected
her husband, that they were having money problems. And that is just nine months after they got married.
GRACE: Well, I don`t understand why people load up on a luxury home and luxury cars, then they claim they`ve got money problems. Of course, you`ve
got money problems because you`re living in a spread like that and you`re driving around in a Mercedes and an SUV.
OK, hold on, Candace Trunzo. Very quickly to Dr. Lolly (ph) McDavid, medical director, Child Advocacy and Protection. Dr. McDavid, thanks for
being with us. When a toxicology test is typically run, they don`t test -- they don`t test for nicotine levels.
DR. LOLITA M. MCDAVID, MEDICAL DIR., CHILD ADVOCACY AND PROTECTION: Well, no, they don`t. However, it often takes a long time for toxicology tests
to come back. They had some reason to look for nicotine. They got it -- they found the high levels when they did do the test. So for some reason,
they did. They may have just -- it may have just come up on their panel.
GRACE: Well, yes, you`re right. Matt Zarrell, typically, when you do toxicology reports on an autopsy, you look for drugs, outlaw drugs. You
look for prescription painkillers and prescription drugs. You don`t look for dangerous, toxic, fatal levels of nicotine.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): No, you`re right, Nancy. In fact, initial testing revealed the nicotine at first, when they
did the toxicology scan. But it wasn`t until they did this addition science forensic testing, they determined she had to get the nicotine
within two hours of her death. And that`s important, Nancy. The reason that`s important is because the night of her death, from 6:00 PM to
midnight, she`s home alone with her husband.
GRACE: Whoa! Candace Trunzo, she was an adamant non-smoker. So tell me about, Candace, how she was found.
TRUNZO: How she was found when she died?
GRACE: Yes.
TRUNZO: Well, they were at home. She came home from work at about 6:00 o`clock in the evening. She was exhausted. She went right to bed. Her
husband got into bed with her -- this is what he says -- hours later, and she wasn`t breathing. He called -- he called, you know, EMTs, and they
came and she was -- she was dead at that point.
He couldn`t understand it, said that he -- you know, he didn`t understand how she could have died. Of course, he knew that he was sick before, but
didn`t know the circumstances, didn`t know what happened to her.
GRACE: Take a look at Linda L. Curry, his first wife. Now, this is the wife that he pressured to up her life insurance policy to $1.4 million.
Shortly after that, she died. He was apprehended with a brand-new wife and a brand-new job in a different town, a much younger wife, living off the
insurance jackpot he got when his first wife died. Nobody understood why.
So Candace Trunzo, the first wife that we now believe died of nicotine injection -- what did they ultimately, at the time anyway, think killed
her, what a stroke, a heart attack? I mean, what did they chalk off the death to?
TRUNZO: Well, they suspected that there was some poisonous substance in her system, but they didn`t know. And it wasn`t until they did further
testing that they were able to determine that it was nicotine and that she had deadly amounts, a fatal level of nicotine in her system, and not...
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me out of D.C., David Benowitz. Joining me out of New York, Jeff Gold. First to you, Benowitz. What`s
your defense?
DAVID BENOWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense is you don`t know -- first of all, you have to go back and look at the original toxicology reports
from when she died and really see, did they do the right job? Did they test the right things? Do you really know that it was nicotine? Because
the technology may have changed between the time of the death...
GRACE: Benowitz!
BENOWITZ: ... and now.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Wait! So you are suggesting that the first line of defense is to argue she did not die
of nicotine? Is that what you`re saying, plain and simple?
BENOWITZ: What I`m saying is we don`t know.
GRACE: You don`t know.
BENOWITZ: I`d want to see those original toxicology reports.
GRACE: OK, Jeff Gold, let`s talk about that. If you`re going to challenge -- if your defense is toxicology, I don`t know that I would challenge and
say I`m smarter than the scientists because nobody`s going to believe that, unless you try a Johnnie Cochran maneuver saying something was wrong at the
lab or they made a mistake. Couldn`t you argue, if you were the defense, that nicotine, murder, no way?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. Two things, Nancy. First of all, it`s really not about new toxicology. What it is, is an interpretation of
the old toxicology. The first interpretation is, We don`t know the levels necessary to kill somebody and the time period involved. And now the new
report is saying, We know those things. So nothing`s changed in the technology. It`s just the interpretation. And that always gives the
defense attorney something to say...
GRACE: Well, here`s the kicker...
GOLD: ... and you`re absolutely right, I`m going to say maybe she was smoking in the back yard. I know a lot of people that don`t tell their
husband they smoke!
GRACE: That don`t smoke except when they`re alone in the back yard. OK, hold on. Jeff Gold, David Benowitz, I`m with you in the sense that if I
were a defense attorney, which of course, I never would be -- but if I were...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... God help me -- if I were, I would definitely go on nicotine equals murder? No way. But this woman was an adamant non-smoker. So if
you`re going to -- let me see the gentlemen, please. This is where I see your argument failing. If you`re going to challenge the toxicology
reports, which normally would make sense, this woman was such an adamant non-smoker, the fact that she has any nicotine in her body at all is
dumbfounding! So the fact that she has any.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, the -- you know, the daughter of the preacher could be in church saying she would never have premarital sex and be out in
the back yard having premarital sex. So just because she`s adamant in public...
GRACE: Yes, you know what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... doesn`t mean what she was doing in private!
GRACE: Don`t drag the preacher`s daughter into this. It has absolutely nothing to do with this.
Candace Trunzo joining me from Mailonline.com. So how did suspicion finally hone in on him simply because new toxicology was done?
TRUNZO: Well, yes, but there were -- there were some previous incidents. The first one -- well, the second time she was hospitalized with those
symptoms we talked about before, the nausea, vomiting, he had -- her husband, Paul, had come to see her. He left the room, told the nurse that
she was absolutely fine.
Seconds later, her IV alarm went off. The nurse went into the room and found that her port had been broken, and broken in a really strange way.
And police were investigating that. And given the fact that she had already told police -- Linda had already told police that she suspected
that her husband had -- had -- you know, was -- was planning to kill her, you know, those things -- those things add up.
And when all of the final testing was done and it was found that the levels of nicotine in her system were fatal, I mean, they put two and two
together. Plus the fact that he wasn`t -- he was at home with her. Nobody else was there. And he admitted that he was home...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to prestigious UVA. A gorgeous co-ed vanishes, grainy surveillance video emerging of her in her apartment hall, but in the last
hours, we obtain more surveillance video. But will it help crack the case?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the McGrady`s (ph) Pub where the 18-year-old is seen on this surveillance video around 12:46.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The shift in focus for Charlottesville investigators comes after these cameras at the Shell station on Preston (ph) Avenue
captured Graham running, then walking. That was at 12:55 AM.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was vulnerable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heading to the downtown mall all alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can see 18-year-old Hannah Graham walking by a store. A man steps out of the doorway and starts to follow her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Talya Cunningham, WCHV. Talya, is it true that five different women have gone missing along this same route 29, only one
body has ever been found?
TALYA CUNNINGHAM, WCHV (via telephone): Hi, Nancy. Yes, it is true that five women have gone missing in the past five years here in
Charlottesville. Now, they`re not all along the route 29 corridor, but they have gone missing here in Charlottesville. There`s no relation to any
of them, at least the police are leaning towards at this moment.
GRACE: Well, you know, I think that`s yet to be determined. Take a look at the photos of these five women. Now, let`s focus on the UVA co-ed,
Hannah. Talya, what can you tell us about her disappearance, specifically about the new video?
Liz, do you mind rolling the new surveillance video we got?
Talya?
CUNNINGHAM: Yes, the new surveillance video that just emerged today, you can see Hannah walking along the downtown mall alone. And when she walks
past, there`s a gentleman outside of one of the shops there. Now, the gentleman called in to the tip line and spoke with police, saying that he
did follow Hannah -- or excuse me, he did follow her into the -- on the downtown mall because he was worried because she looked like she was in
distress.
Now, we all know that she had been drinking that night, so she was (INAUDIBLE) walking up the downtown mall. Now, the man (INAUDIBLE) the
surveillance. He reported it to police that he did follow her. But he also reported to police that another African-American gentleman was seen
walking up to her and he put his arm around her. So the gentleman determined that they knew each other and he went on his way.
GRACE: Everyone -- hold on, Talya Cunningham, WCHV. Take a look at this surveillance video we`ve just gotten. We are on the search for missing co-
ed Heather (sic) Graham. Was she being followed by a male at the time she goes missing?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Breaking news tonight. We are on the hunt for a missing co-ed. Now, back to Talya Cunningham, WCHV. I had brought out that five young
women have been -- have disappeared along route 29. You said there`s no link. But I`d like to point out that police themselves have stated that a
question regarding a possible link to specifically Morgan Harrington (ph) is actually legitimate, that they will share that with us, if they get
knowledge of that. So it`s really hard for me to believe that five women go missing, and at least amongst four of them, there`s not a single link.
That aside, take a look at this video we were just showing you. This is newly obtained video. We know this is Graham. Take a look at her.
Joining me right now, speaking of law enforcement, is the chief of the Charlottesville Police Department, Chief Tim Longo. Chief Longo, it`s so
great to have you with us.
CHIEF TIM LONGO, CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Please tell me what you know about the search.
LONGO: Well, the value of the video surveillance at least lets us know the course of travel that she was taking, a due east course down a pedestrian
mall. Now, we are using scent detection dogs to follow that track. I think we`re pretty successful in that regard as we speak. We`re pursuing
an area that`s just east of the downtown mall. So we know at some point, she moved off that mall. The question is, who she moved off that mall
with.
Now, I want to speak to that African-American gentleman for a moment. I don`t know whether he was a good Samaritan trying to help Heather --
rather, Hannah or not. But it`s someone we need to talk to. It`s someone we need to identify. We need to know what his interaction was with her.
And that`s where we are right now, in addition to trying to find to see if there`s more video surveillance on the mall so we can find Hannah and bring
her home.
GRACE: Hold on, Chief Longo. Hold on this map just a moment for me, Liz. Don`t jump off of it! All right, I`ve got Chief Tim Longo with me,
everybody, Charlottesville Police Department chief. Chief, we have painstakingly gone through every police report, every account we can find
to establish a timeline. We`ve got a map up, Chief. Could you tell us what you believe the timeline is, starting around 9:30 at her apartment.
LONGO: Well, you have, I think, seen video surveillance of her leaving what I believe is her dormitory building or her apartment building. We
then believe she goes to a restaurant on University Avenue, I think in the 1300 block. She has a meal with some friends. At that point, she leaves
alone. Now, I think at that meal, there was some discussion about where they would meet up later, at a later time either that night or early
morning. She goes off on her own...
GRACE: Here she is leaving her apartment, everybody. This is what Chief Longo is talking about. We`re talking about Hannah Graham, the missing co-
ed. All right, there she is leaving it looks like a dormitory, it`s an apartment hall there near campus. She`s leaving. She`s going to meet her
girlfriends, all right? They go out for dinner. They decide to meet up somewhere after that.
OK, pick me up there, Chief.
LONGO: OK. So she leaves by herself. We know that she went to at least two locations where other students were gathering and socializing. We
believe alcohol was consumed at those locations. She leaves the second location, again by herself.
It`s at that point, I think, for some reason, disorientation or some other reason, she gets turned around. She loses her way. We believe she
probably goes northbound on 10th Street Northwest, where she finds herself at McGrady`s Pub. If you look at that video, she seems to have an
interaction with someone, for lack of a better term I`ll call a doorman. He either denies her access or they exchange some words and she leaves his
presence.
You`ll see her walk around the building and then she`ll proceed in an eastbound direction on Preston Avenue, where she`s later picked up on video
by a gas station video surveillance camera.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Please help us find a missing coed. One of five women that go missing along the Route 29 Corridor.
Tonight, joining me, Chief Tim Longo, Charlottesville Police Department.
So, Chief, I just want to get my mind around what you`re saying. One guy we see -- she`s apparently lost. One guy comes up and is behind her. And
he`s spotted on the video. He actually sees himself on TV and comes in to police department and goes hey, hey, hey, I had nothing to do with this.
Question me. Take my DNA, take my lie detector. But doesn`t he say he sees another gentleman come up to her?
CHIEF TIM LONGO, CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, in fairness to him, Nancy, he actually contacted police before the video was even
released. So my understanding is he called the tip line before it was released. And he does come in and he acknowledges seeing her, acknowledged
following her. He also acknowledges seeing her stop and talk with this African-American gentleman.
And again, I don`t know if that person had any ill-will towards her. He might have been trying to help her. I do know -- we have no idea who he
is, we have not identified him. We don`t have him on video.
GRACE: Everyone, you`re seeing the video Chief Longo is talking about right there. Video surveillance of Hannah Graham coming forward.
To Dr. Bethany Marshal, psychoanalyst and author, you know, she`s such an easy mark, as are college women.
If you take a look at all five of these young women that go missing along that Route 29 Corridor, Morgan Harrington, Samantha Clark, DaShad Laquinn
Smith, Alexis Murphy, especially three of those, I find to be possible connections. What do you make of it?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, so if this was a serial killer and this was over a five-year span, one of the
things we know about serial killers is that they pick on very vulnerable populations. College students, young women, sex workers, anybody who
really might not be aware of their whereabouts. At least three of these young women were congregating in university areas and there was alcohol
involved which makes them vulnerable.
GRACE: Clark Goldband, what can you tell me about a text that was apparently received by her but now they`re saying the text was incorrect?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, it`s not clear. It appears from this text message at around 1:00 a.m., that she
says she was lost. However, what`s confounded authorities according to reports is she was familiar with this area.
And Nancy, I want to point you to some more surveillance that we just obtained. Around 12:55 in the morning, authorities say she`s seen running
from a Shell station. And that appeared to be troublesome. However, at about 1:05 in the morning she`s --
GRACE: There she is running right there, Clark.
GOLDBAND: She`s out in front of an Italian restaurant and doesn`t seem to be in any distress at all. She`s then seen in front of a jewelry store
about two minutes after that. So at first, this Shell surveillance may have seemed troubling. However, at the pizza restaurant and at the jewelry
store she seemed OK.
GRACE: To Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert.
Ben, I`m just wondering if anyone slipped something into her drink. She should have known where she was. But clearly she`s downtown. She`s
running around. She has no idea where she is. She`s highly disoriented.
Ben, what do you make of the fact there are allegations that this text message received by her is incorrect?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, her phone apparently sent a text message. We don`t know if she was the one who sent the message,
Nancy. But if her phone sent a text message, what that will tell police is where she was, but it only gives us a location about four square miles.
In Charlottesville, Virginia, a cell tower in that area is going to cover about four miles. If she had dialed 911, we would be able to -- pinpoint
her position at that time to about 100 feet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now to Claypool, Indiana. Mommy booked and fingerprinted when her baby boy, born on meth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 21-year-old Sarah Mills going into labor on their neighbor`s front lawn. All while under the influence of meth.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mills was rushed to the hospital where she and her newborn baby both tested positive for meth.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A newborn baby is now struggling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kylie Havens, news personality, WOWO.
A mom`s child, her infant born on meth? Mommy immediately arrested. But how did the hospital personnel -- I mean, how can you look at the baby and
know the baby is on meth?
KYLIE HAVENS, NEWS PERSONALITY, WOWO RADIO: Well, they -- right away they took blood tests as soon as the baby was born and they found the baby did
test positive for meth and was actually experiencing symptoms of withdrawal.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Trinity Mark, defense attorney, Atlanta. Also with us out of Atlanta, Kirby Clemens.
OK, Trinity Hundredmark, let`s start with you. Give me one good reason why mommy should not be arrested?
TRINITY HUNDREDMARK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, addiction is a disease. This lady likely has an addiction problem. If she was a diabetic, we
wouldn`t throw her in jail if something was wrong with her baby because she as a diabetic. But we want to judge her because it`s drug issue. It`s
drug problem. But it is a problem and it is a disease and that`s proven.
GRACE: You know --
HUNDREDMARK: And she deserves a right to try to get help. I`m not saying that what she did was right and she deserves a right to try to get help --
GRACE: Hey, I`m all for her getting help, Trinity.
HUNDREDMARK: I understand that.
GRACE: Before I go to you, Kirby Clemens, take a look at these progression shots of what meth does to you.
Roll it, Liz.
We are talking about an incredibly dangerous substance.
Brad Lamm, why meth so dangerous?
BRAD LAMM, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: It`s one of the most powerful drugs out there. It`s, in fact, Nancy, the drug that Hitler gave to soldiers so they
would work relentlessly, feel like superheroes. And infallible out on the field. It is a drug that makes you feel like you`re on top of the world
despite of what`s going on around you. Very, very, very addictive, Nancy.
GRACE: We are showing you progressions of people on meth. Now imagine this happening to a little baby. Look.
This woman`s child, her infant, born on meth. And this is what it does to you.
Now to the lawyers. Back to you, Kirby Clements, as you take a look at that. Give me one good reason. I hear Trinity Hundredmark. She should be
helped. I`m all for her being helped. I want her to be helped. Behind bars.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Nancy, I`ll say that`s ridiculous. You know what? And they have countries where they chop
people`s hands off to stop stealing and you know what, people still steal. In this situation meth take --
GRACE: We`re not talking about chopping her hand off.
CLEMENTS: Look at the face of those people. No, you talk about putting her behind bars.
GRACE: Try to get it back in the middle of the road, Clements.
CLEMENTS: No. And jail -- and like jail works. Look at the high recidivism rate. Locking people up serves nothing of it than guaranteeing
somebody a job to watch them while they`re locked up. She needs help. That`s the problem. Look at those pictures. Look at those pictures.
GRACE: I agree she needs help.
CLEMENTS: Right.
GRACE: But what about what she did to the baby? What about that? This is --
CLEMENTS: Beyond her control. It`s the nature of meth.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNDREDMARK: If it`s a problem, if it`s a disease, it`s not always a choice.
GRACE: Yes, I agree.
HUNDREDMARK: What about the people that sold it to her? What about the people that had provided it to her? They may have more culpability here
than anyone else.
GRACE: Well, you know what? In that vein of thinking, the two of you are guilty, too. Maybe you helped that person make a sell at a grocery store.
Maybe you -- they pumped your gas. Maybe they helped you fix your tire or helped you at the convenience store. But, you know, along your train of
thought, we`re all guilty, because this woman took meth while she`s pregnant.
And I am not talking about right to life or right to abortion. I`m saying, if you`re keeping the baby, if you decide you`re keeping the baby, and then
you use meth, absolutely inexcusable.
Doctor Gallagher, what does meth do to a baby?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It really depends on a lot of factors, Nancy. Babies born to meth addicts who are
positive for meth can suffer premature birth, low birth weight, birth defects.
And Nancy, they sleep a lot. I`m talking 23 1/2 hours per day and have to be woken up to be fed. Now as a result, poor eating, poor developmental
abilities. And later on, we can see ADHD, that`s attention deficit hyper activity disorder. Fits of rage and learning disabilities.
GRACE: Isn`t it true, Brad Lamm, that meth can kill you and this infant, this tiny baby just a few pounds was on meth?
LAMM: It can cause problems with your heart. Usually people if they die while they`re on meth is that they have a heart attack. It usually will
not kill you because of the drug. It will kill you because of the dumb things you`re doing on the drug. And so what it does to the infant, it
fundamentally changes that beautiful forming prefrontal cortex of the baby and it can forever change the way that a child develops and grows up.
There`s a great program in Orange County, a low-cost program for moms with kids to go into treatment together. It`s called New Directions for Women.
GRACE: You know what?
LAMM: Anybody out there who has somebody should check them out.
GRACE: New Directions? You know, Trinity Hundredmark, Kirby Clements, I`m all for rehab. Every time I could I would try to get a drug offender into
rehab as opposed to jail. But when you drag in a defenseless child, a newborn into the scenario, that`s a whole other ball game, Trinity.
HUNDREDMARK: Nancy, we don`t know a lot about the facts of this case. I mean, she wouldn`t be the first person to be pregnant and not know. We
hear that all the time. There`s a show called "I Didn`t Know I was Pregnant," and these people suddenly know. If she is on drug, people know
what her mental state was this entire time.
GRACE: Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop. Have you watched "I Didn`t Know I was Pregnant?"
HUNDREDMARK: I have. I`m not saying everybody is intelligent but we`re talking about a drug addict.
GRACE: OK. Cut her mike.
All right, Kirby Clements, when you drag in a baby to the scenario, this is not just about you getting well. It`s not -- when you are pregnant and you
give birth, if you decide to keep the pregnancy and not terminate it and you give birth, you`re responsible for that child. It`s not about -- it`s
not all me, me, me anymore. It`s about them, them, them.
CLEMENTS: So what do you want to criminalize her for being a woman?
GRACE: No.
CLEMENTS: Why don`t we prosecute the man for getting her pregnant when she was --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No. OK. You know what, that is such, such foolishness.
CLEMENTS: No, it`s realistic.
GRACE: Cut both their mikes.
Bethany Marshall, help me out of this quagmire.
MARSHALL: Sometimes these meth moms have to take a couple of parenting classes, go to rehab and then they can get the baby back. So the tragedy
does not stop at birth. What happens often is that these baby is replaced with a relative, a loving caregiver, who bonds with the baby. And then
meth mom wants to get the baby back because the baby represents access to money from the state and other social services.
So the mother uses the drug while she`s pregnant. Then she uses the baby to get money from the state. So it`s a saga that goes on through the baby
momma dyad through life.
GRACE: Right now CNN HEROES.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really hate when it hurts. It`s a really sharp pain. I get all teary. The shots really scared me a lot and they still scare me
now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When children get a diagnosis like cancer or any major disease, they lose any sense of feeling that they`re controlling their
lives. They`re prodded and poked and touched and they`re often so afraid.
Our daughter is Sarah (INAUDIBLE), was diagnosed with leukemia. She was such an incredible little soul who taught me about the power that`s inside
of ourselves.
Are you ready? OK, begin.
After our daughter passed away, I started a program that provides classes to children who are sick to teach them the martial arts, to make them feel
powerful.
Every single type of martial arts uses the breath to take control.
I`m a black belt (INAUDIBLE).
Hold it and then release.
We use the martial arts as a platform for meditation, for relaxation, to allow children to gain these tools.
You`re totally in control.
To really face down so much of the fear, the anger that accompanies pain.
Breathe in.
Then you can see that light on their face. I feel like their souls are shining.
You did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do have the power to make the pain go away. And nothing is impossible. Nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, the desperate search for two young tots. Apparently their mom has been lying about their whereabouts. Her story not adding up.
And with me, a very special guest, Troy Turner, the father of the missing tots.
Troy, thank you so much for being with us.
TROY TURNER, FATHER OF MISSING TODDLERS: Thank you for having me on.
GRACE: Troy, I know that you have tried so hard to reason with your wife, to find out where the children are. I know the police have asked her over
20 times.
In your gut, where do you believe they could be? What are her favorite places to go? Where do you think that she would leave them?
TURNER: I believe that they`re somewhere here in Montgomery County where we are right now because I`ve had tips and stuff. And in my gut, I don`t
believe that she would actually do something on purpose to hurt them. I just feel like due to her mental state, she`s doing what the reality that`s
not real and making choices, you know, on that basis. And she thinks she`s probably protecting the kids. That`s why she`s not going to say anything.
GRACE: Troy, in her mind, you believe she`s protecting her two tots. How did you find out that she had actually been apprehended?
TURNER: Actually I was listening to a radio station here while I was sending people out on searches and going around myself actually and, you
know, asking questions of people in the area. And I heard on the radio station and soon after the police called and told me also.
GRACE: With me is the father of missing toddlers Jacob and Sarah, ages 2 and 3. Tonight, that search goes on for them.
Everyone, that tip line, 301-279-8000, with me, the children`s father, Troy Turner.
Troy, when you saw Catherine, once you learned she had been apprehended, what did she tell you?
TURNER: The first thing that happened when I walked in, she asked me, what are you doing here? And I just explained to her I was there to hopefully
find out where my kids are and I told her I was there to see her jus to try to (INAUDIBLE) then. And then I asked her several times to tell me where
the kids are. According to the police, it must have been two dozen and she wouldn`t tell me. And they just (INAUDIBLE). I don`t know if they felt,
you know, it was getting too emotional or what, but I just wanted to keep asking until she told me.
GRACE: Did she make any response at all or did she just remain silent as you asked her where were the children?
TURNER: She said that she had left them on someone for two weeks to watch them and then she had planned on disappearing. And she said that she
wasn`t going to disclose where they were.
GRACE: You know, in her mind she`s protecting them. Protecting them from what, Troy?
TURNER: In her mind, I believe, I know when she was committed back in December, she had believed that people were after her and the kids to do
things, you know, to do harm to them. And I don`t know if -- when she went off her meds she went back to that state. I have no idea. To be honest
with you. She didn`t express it to me. She just tried to get away with them.
GRACE: Troy, you know who her friends are, you know who her family is. You know everywhere she goes. Who could she have left them with? And
wouldn`t that person come forward now?
TURNER: That`s what I would hope. That`s actually what I`ve been saying over and over again. The media is, you know, if someone has them, I don`t
care who you are. Drop them off. You know, if they`re healthy, just drop them off. I don`t care if it`s at the hospital, at a library, drop them
off someplace safe where I can be called. I don`t care if it`s this person, you know, if this is just someone who is housing them, that`s fine,
or whatever. If someone leads me to my children, then they`re going to get the reward. I mean, I`ll write a thank you note on the back of the check
if you just bring me my kids back.
GRACE: Troy, in your heart of hearts, do you believe the children are still alive?
TURNER: Yes. I do 100 percent.
GRACE: Why?
TURNER: And I believe I`m going to find them.
GRACE: Why? Why do you believe that?
TURNER: Thank you.
GRACE: Troy, why do you believe that?
TURNER: I believe it because there`s been sightings. I don`t -- like I said, I don`t believe that she would purposely hurt them because she --
GRACE: Are you telling me there have been sightings of the two tots, Jacob and Sarah?
TURNER: Pardon?
GRACE: There have been sightings of your children?
TURNER: Yes, there are people who told me they have sighted them. We`ve been checking out a lot of tips and leads out in Montgomery County. Here
in Rockville Maryland, we had one recently yesterday. I currently have people riding the buses, the transit, and stuff where they were possibly
seen.
GRACE: Troy, where were they spotted?
TURNER: Rockville, Maryland, right around the town center area getting on a bus headed towards -- up towards the Falls Grove area.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are headed back to the news on the 8-year-old little girl, Hawaii Robinson. Just 3 feet tall, 45 pounds, broad daylight. On foot
from her home, just not even a block away.
Emily Hill joining me from AL.com on the scene where her body little Hawaii`s body has just been found and identified.
Emily, I understand this woman, person of interest, has come forward. She came voluntarily to the police. What do we know, Emily?
EMILY HILL, REPORTER, MOBILE PRESS REGISTER AND AL.COM: Yes, that`s right. We are just hearing from police that the person of interest to the Mobile
Police Department and that`s all we know at this time. We still do not have a name, but it is the woman who was pictured in those surveillance
picture.
GRACE: We don`t know the connection or date of that surveillance photo, but we do know this woman, a person of interest, has come forward on her
own volition. Tip line, 1-800-CALL-FBI. 1-800-2255-324.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Army Major Larry Bauguess, Jr., 36, Moravian Falls, North Carolina. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved baseball.
A high school baseball field named in his honor. Parents Larry Sr. and Martha, brother Terry, sister Laura, widow Wesley, an army vet, two
daughters.
Larry Bauguess, Jr., American hero.
Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
