Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New Clues in Missing UVA Student Vase; Allege Cop Killer Eludes Police; U.S. Marine Held in Mexico Highly Despondent; The Biggest IPO Ever on Wall Street; What It Takes to Defeat ISIS; Spanking in the South; California Fire Suspect Pleads Not Guilty

Aired September 20, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right. What a way to begin a new hour. Hello again, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Here are the top stories we're following inside the CNN NEWSROOM.

A terrifying moment at the White House may lead to some big changes in security there. We have new details about the fence jumper and how he made it through the front doors.

Plus, Pennsylvania police think they are closing in on a suspect in the killing of a state trooper for eight days. Residents have been scared and on edge.

And later, there is fine line discipline and abuse. People are talking about where that line, especially when it comes to children.

We begin with new clues in the case of a missing University of Virginia student. It has been one week since Hannah Graham went missing. She left dinner with friends in the Charlottesville area last Friday around 11:00 p.m. A few hours later, she sent a text to her friends saying, she was lost. No word from her since. But now, investigators have a theory on what happened that night. Police believe she got into a car with a man after that dinner with friends.

Let's go now to CNN's Jean Casarez in Charlottesville, Virginia.

So, Jean, you're in the area where more than a thousand people are looking for Hannah. What more are you learning?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me give you the latest. A lot of the searchers are coming back now to refresh. The Red Cross is here with water and snacks and they're going back out. And I just spoke with one of the searchers and she said that they were in a densely wooded area. She said it was so difficult to even walk. And they were being told to look for clothing of Hannah.

And they were right next to a creek. And I said, well, are investigators asking you to look in the creek? And she said, they're asking us to look everywhere. But this is what we've learned this morning. And this gives a new slant to this missing persons investigation. Last night, the police chief was told that people were going to retrace Hannah's step in the downtown mall area.

Today what they're looking at are vacant buildings, construction sites. They're taking flashlights and being asked to look in manholes and drains. Anywhere to find anything of Hannah. And also dumpsters. People have been in dumpsters, looking to see if they can find something. But the passion from this community to find Hannah, a sophomore at the University of Virginia, it's very emotional today.

WHITFIELD: So, Jean, what is it about this man that they are describing, not naming, and why do they believe that she was with him for a period of time and may even have left the area with him?

CASAREZ: They don't believe that she knew him at all but what we learned last night, and it was a bombshell in this press conference. They said that surveillance video and witness testimony shows that this man began to follow her in the mall. African-American, 32 years old, 270 pounds with dreadlocks. They say that he put his arm around her, they went into a local restaurant, the Tempo Restaurant. He ordered alcohol. They left 15 minutes later, she got into his car.

They want anyone that saw any bit of that to come forward. They say they know who he is, but had no probable cause to arrest him, but they enough probable cause to search his car and search his apartment.

WHITFIELD: And are police revealing anything about the sequence of events, that eyewitness account or the video showing that she's with him? Where does that come in between this whole texting to friends that "I'm lost"? I mean, what's the timeline here?

CASAREZ: Most of it comes outside of the view of videotape surveillance, although they are reviewing some of that, I think, that has not been released to the public. But this man that they are so interested in was caught on videotape. And so they're putting it together. But they want people, I think, to see the demeanor between the two of them. They don't believe they knew each other, but was she scared, did she willingly go, did he seem to force her in the vehicle? And I think that they need more of that to actually go further in this investigation.

WHITFIELD: Yes, very curious situation. All right, thanks so much, Jean Casarez. Appreciate that. Keep us posted.

CASAREZ: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Now to northeast Pennsylvania, where suspected cop killer Eric Matthew Frein is still on the loose. This after a night of drama in the woods that included a massive police presence, shots being fired and residents on lockdown. And at one point, a report that police had surrounded an area where they thought Frein was hiding.

Alexandra Field is in Monroe County, Pennsylvania.

So, Alexandra, keep us up to date on this. What's the latest?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Fred, for a while there, it looked like they were closing in on the suspect, but today they are continuing to search for Eric Frein and frankly the search efforts have only grown this morning. We're now hearing that there are 300 to 400 law enforcement officers, all in the area, continuing to look for the man who has evaded them for a week now.

Joining in this search, state police, the FBI, the U.S. Marshall's Office, local police officers, ATF officers, a large group of people who are out there looking to find this man. But they are telling the public to stay inside. They believe that Frein is armed and dangerous. They're trying to bring this search to a resolution without any other innocent bystanders or law enforcement officers being hurt in the process.

So while it did look encouraging there for a little while overnight, right now we know, Fred, that this search is still very much continuing.

WHITFIELD: So are residents still on lockdown?

FIELD: They are. They're being told, stay away from their windows, lock their doors, stay off the road. I think that speaks to sort of the severity of the situation here. You know, we do not know where Frein is. Earlier in the week, law enforcement officials have said that they believed that he was in the area. Then there was some activity Thursday night. A potential sighting of the suspect and then that activity last night.

Reports that shots were fired, reports that police believed that they had closed in on him, that they had him sort of surrounded in an area. But we're talking about really densely, thickly wooded areas here. They're doing a grid search right now, which means that they are trying to check off areas and then restrict access. All in an effort to locate this suspect.

WHITFIELD: All right. Alexandra Field, thank you so much.

All right, the White House Secret Service detail is now trying to figure it all out. How a man jumped the fence, escaping uniformed guards, running right across the North Lawn, and then right into the White House last night. They searched the grounds today to ensure that there were no explosives or other devices that may have been dropped, perhaps, on the ground.

A former Secret Service agent, whose brother is still in the service, says it doesn't take long to get from the fence to the front door.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL BONGINO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: I'm stunned. I think what they have to look at is, remember, we're always -- we can't stick the president in a big iron box. He's the president of the United States, he has to be out there amongst the people. But I've always seen, especially on the north portion of the White House, the distance to the front door is really short in contrast to the south portion.

It's quite a run. You're not going to make it to the south doors. They're going to have to do something with the fence. Even if it's something as simple as curving the bars over towards the street side, the Pennsylvania Avenue side, which would make it harder to scale.

Remember, time buys you options. And right now, they don't have time. You scale the fence, you're almost right at the door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So no one was injured in the incident and the president and the first family had just left the grounds on a Marine helicopter. Just by a matter of four minutes, we understand.

All right. Startling new details on a U.S. Marine being held in Mexico. What his mother is saying about his mental health.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Major developments today on the condition of a U.S. Marine held on a Mexican prison for more than six months now. U.S. Marine Reservist has repeated said that he entered Mexico after taking a wrong turn on the California side of the border into Tijuana. Well, he has been held on weapons charges ever since and now his mother said he is, quote, "highly despondent."

CNN's Nick Valencia has covered the story from the very beginning.

So, Nick, where are we in the case of this young Marine and what is his mom saying about this condition?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's no timetable for if or when he will be released. And his mother, I spoke to her last week, she says he's doing worse than ever, and that's saying a lot considering at one point he did try to take his life after threats against his own life in the first prison that he was in Tijuana. He is very despondent right now. Communication has been very limited.

He was using a phone in the prison to communicate with his family and friends. That phone is broken, so that's essentially limited his contact with the outside world. So for six months, he's been in the prison system in Mexico.

And he's maintained from the very beginning, Fred, that he made a wrong turn. It was an accident. That he got turned around, that's when Mexican customs agents found these three weapons, this AR-15, this pump shotgun and this .45-caliber weapon, military grade weapons that they found he said he declared.

WHITFIELD: Why'd he have all that in the vehicle?

VALENCIA: Well, he had moved from Florida to California to live with friends who's suffering from PTSD, still is suffering from PTSD. And he was living out of his truck. So he had asked a friend at one point to keep his weapons at that friend's home. His friend had kids so he said, absolutely not, so he had all of his worldly possessions in this one car.

He says he makes an accidental wrong turn into Mexico, now he's being held facing 21 years. But there are people that just doubt his story. They say it just doesn't add up.

WHITFIELD: Including the U.S. State Department? VALENCIA: Including some in the U.S. State Department. A source at

the U.S. State Department told me recently that there's doubt around his story. He had booked a hotel, a motel, in Tijuana, and had spent the previous night before he was arrested. Now some believe that he was intending not to do anything nefarious but intending to go back into Mexico that night that he was arrested.

I asked the State Department about that. They didn't respond to that doubt, Fred, but they did say that they've done everything in their power to try to get him out. They visited him 20 times. Secretary of State Kerry has talked about this. But much to the disappointment of Tahmooressi supporters, President Obama hasn't mentioned this at all.

WHITFIELD: So what does that include when the State Department says, they've tried everything? What -- you know, does that mean in that -- in those negotiations, I guess, with, you know, Mexican counterparts? What kind of power does the U.S. State Department have to compel another country to say, release our guy?

VALENCIA: That's just it.

WHITFIELD: Our citizens --

(CROSSTALK)

VALENCIA: They don't have much power. They can put the pressure on Mexico, but really, all of this power is in the hands of the district judge who's hearing the evidence. He's had three evidentiary hearings, the latest just on September 9th, when they submitted this surveillance video. And according to his defense attorney, he says this surveillance video showed that, you know, his client had been telling the truth all along, that there was a pause there. Still, there's this doubt that he, perhaps, intentionally crossed.

There is conversations, though, in the Mexican government's office and high-level administration officials I've been told by a source in the attorney general's office there in Mexico, that they're considering letting him go based on this mental health. Mexico doesn't officially treat PTSD for their prisoners. They're saying they don't have the resources to treat somebody who's suffering for this PTSD.

He's a war combat veteran that served his country two tours in Afghanistan and he's doing really bad mentally right now. I've spoken to him several times over the phone from his prison cell. And initially he was very despondent, he had that optimism, and now he's back at square one with no timetable.

There is a congressional hearing on October 1st from the House Foreign Affairs Committee, subcommittee, to talk about Tahmooressi, to try to get him out. He has his next court date on the 29th here in September. But really, there is no suggestion that he will be released, though some maintaining their optimism -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Wow. What a complicated situation.

All right, Nick Valencia, thanks so much. Appreciate it. VALENCIA: Yes. You bet.

WHITFIELD: All right. It is the biggest IPO Wall Street has ever seen. We'll tell you all about the Chinese company making a big splash here in the U.S.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: OK. It is the biggest IPO ever to hit Wall Street. Shares of the Chinese e-commerce company, Alibaba, began trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The share price jumped 38 percent in its first day of trading. And when the dust settled, the company raised almost $22 billion.

Even though Alibaba is sometimes called the Chinese Amazon, CNN's Maggie Lake explains why it is so much more than that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAGGIE LAKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Forget Twitter and Facebook. Alibaba's IPO is unlike anything investors have seen before.

BRENDAN AHERN, MANAGING DIRECTOR, KRANESHARES: Really it's like 12 companies. It's -- you know, the eBay and Amazon and PayPal is pretty easy. But it's a Netflix, it's a Groupon. It's -- they have a money market fund business, you know, where buyers and sellers to just park their cash. They have $100 billion U.S. in their money market fund business. So it's almost like -- it's an ecosystem of its own.

LAKE: The numbers swirling around this ecosystem are huge. Even by Silicon Valley standards. Alibaba's profit for the second quarter jumped some 179 percent to $2 billion. Revenue increased by 46 percent, double that of U.S. online retailer Amazon. Mobile user growth has jumped tenfold. And last year, the company delivered six billion packages, more than global delivery giant UPS.

Those stats are enough to put even the most confident CEOs on edge.

(On camera): Who should be afraid of them, if anyone? Who do they compare to?

MAX WOLFF, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MANHATTAN VENTURE PARTNERS: So they're going to be a big competitor. I think to a lot of other countries trying to have their own e-commerce. So to be honest with you, I don't see Alibaba bumping eBay or Amazon out of their place in the United States. But as eBay and Amazon try to become global in more and more markets, they're going to fight heavily entrenched Alibaba that's working really hard to get into those markets. So it will more cut them that way.

LAKE (voice-over): The financials are backed up by some serious sizzle. Charismatic founder Jack Ma has the stage presence to rival many tech icons. And he's followed the tech world's preference for structuring the stock sale to make sure control stays in management's hand. But Alibaba is still young and analysts say it won't be easy to knock the likes of Amazon and eBay from their perch.

WOLFF: They are kind of a walled garden and they're not the cheapest deal in the world. They force you to use AliPay, it's not that cheap, and they don't have as global a mix of premium brands, because they have a counterfeiting problem on T-Mall, which is fairly extreme. So a few times when you check on T-Mall, just the brands, maybe half or more of some of the branded contents was knockoffs.

LAKE: Maintaining momentum after the listing will be a challenge. But the windfall from the IPO means Alibaba has the cash to spend on winning over skeptics.

Maggie Lake, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Wow, that's something else, isn't it? Well, Alibaba closed yesterday just short of $94 a share. That's up 38 percent, a little reminder there, over the initial offering of $68.

So should we jump in and buy Alibaba stock? Or is this all a lot of hype? And what about the company's Chinese roots?

Here to talk about all of that is Rob Wilson. He is a financial adviser and host of "Rob Wilson TV."

All right, so insiders, you know, have a permanent lock of control of the company, but hold small minority of the equity capital. So what does this mean for an investor? What do you get when you lay down your money and say, I'm going to invest in this company?

ROB WILSON, FINANCIAL ADVISER: Well, this ownership structure is very sketchy. Because, see, the Chinese government puts restrictions on foreign investments and certain industries in their country. And so what they did was set up a shell corporation in the Cayman Islands, and that's actually the entity that you get shares in. So that company has contractual agreements to receive the profits from the Chinese entity.

But you should be very leery of putting your money and investing in something when you don't have actual ownership of the company. If you go out and buy shares in Apple or Google or Facebook, you own a piece of that company. That's not exactly how this is working here.

WHITFIELD: So you're talking to the ordinary consumer because clearly a lot of big investors did buy into it and, you know, they made -- a significant investment in these shares.

WILSON: Oh, absolutely. The smart money jumped all over this. As you mentioned, the stock -- the IPO was up 38 percent yesterday.

WHITFIELD: Thirty-eight percent.

WILSON: So they're pretty happy with their investment. But listen, all of these things are good until they're not. So there's other Chinese companies just like this that have gone public with this structure. Baidu went public a number of years ago and that stock is up 1700 percent since it went public. But there's also an agricultural company from China who went public with this -- went public at 16 bucks, is now -- it's trading at $1.18 and so there are some bad stories.

And the reason that last company didn't do so well is that people lost confidence that they were going to be able to manage this structure.

WHITFIELD: So the bad stories, I guess, really got the attention of U.S. Senator Bob Casey, you know, who really asserts that Alibaba and potentially several other Chinese companies listing on U.S. exchanges may have fraudulent accounting, his words, fraudulent accounting practices. And is that a legitimate concern?

WILSON: It's a very legitimate concern. When you invest in companies in the United States, you can have some reasonable amount of faith that the big auditing firms here are going through those financials with a fine tooth comb, and so that you know what you're getting. But the SEC here has not been able to really review those auditing firms in China. So you're not exactly sure if those financials are what they say they are. And so there's got to be other better places to put your money, where you can be a little bit more certain about what you're investing.

WHITFIELD: I guess there was a feeling that many people, investors, big investors would be a little reluctant to kind of jump on the bandwagon because so many were burned with the Facebook IPO. But clearly, that didn't happen.

WILSON: Well, because I think they anticipated that people were going to learn from that mistake. And listen, they structured this so that people would make money. They didn't want this to go down on the first day. It was going to be a lot of bad press. So they structured it so that it would go up. Your big investors are going to be happy. They're going to hold it for a while and not just sell it on the first day.

WHITFIELD: So you're afraid that the other shoe is going to drop or something, you know, may come of Alibaba, and all of this money that's been invested?

WILSON: I'm a little nervous. I would not jump and rush into it.

Listen, a lot of times when companies go public, over the next six months, the stock price just jumps all over the place. There's always a better time to get in. Even if you didn't get Google or Facebook on the first day, there was always a better time to buy and you could still make money in those investments.

WHITFIELD: All right. Rob Wilson, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

WILSON: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Good to see you.

Up next, the president says no ground troops in the fight against ISIS, but is the Pentagon on the same page as the White House?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Mortgage rates inched up this week. Take a look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Bottom of the hour now. Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. And here are the top stories crossing the CNN news desk right now.

An anonymous source tells CNN the Nigerian government and the International Committee of the Red Cross are negotiating the release of more than 200 missing Nigerian schoolgirls. The source says officials have met with senior Boko Haram members four times and discussed releasing 30 imprisoned Boko Haram commanders in exchange for the schoolgirls who have been missing since April. Boko Haram negotiated claimed the girls were never raped or sexually assaulted.

Two U.S. jets intercepted a half dozen Russian military planes flying too close to U.S. airspace off Alaska on Wednesday. They didn't enter sovereign territory, but came within 55 miles of the Alaskan coast. And early Thursday morning, Canadian planes intercepted two Russian bombers approaching Canadian air space. A U.S. official tells CNN it's likely the incidents were related to the president of Ukraine's visit this week to the U.S. and Canada.

And the E! television network has announced its hit show "Fashion Police" will continue next year despite the death of its host, Joan Rivers. E! released a statement saying, in part, quote, "We decided with Melissa Rivers' blessing that Joan would have wanted the franchise to continue," end quote. Rivers died about two weeks ago at the age of 81.

And thanks to a few good Samaritans in Salt Lake City, Utah. A tragedy was avoided and the dramatic rescue was all caught on camera. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jump. Jump. You'll buy shoes later. Jump. I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Wow. Amazing, that SUV was uprighted. And inside, three -- teenage boys inside that vehicle which had slid off a bridge Thursday. The driver and the passengers are all alive because of the bystanders that jumped in to save them.

President Barack Obama now has the go-ahead from Congress to arm and train moderate Syrian rebels in the fight against ISIS. The White House has been adamant any war on ISIS won't include U.S. ground troops. Some Pentagon generals have suggested it might have to be an option, but only if Syrian and Iraqi forces don't succeed with American help.

Earlier, I spoke with former State Department adviser, Aaron David Miller, and CNN military analyst, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. And I asked Hertling if this was a real divide or just the debate that sometimes happens between the White House and the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: There's no disconnect. I think you've heard that from both General Dempsey and the Pentagon spokesman. It's the chairman doing the things he's supposed to do. He's thinking ahead. He's thinking about potential options. He clearly said, hey, if we see this as a possibility, we will go to the president and have him make a decision. We would be appalled if General Dempsey was not thinking of future opportunities.

WHITFIELD: OK. So, Aaron, if that is the case, this really is customary and perhaps people are misinterpreting this, what is the public message, then, and does this, in any way, kind of empower, if not give more credibility to ISIS?

AARON DAVID MILLER, WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER: Well, I think Mark's right. You have to distinguish between the possibility of the redeployment of thousands of American combat forces in Iraq and perhaps even in Afghanistan, from the reality that we are going to have to use, as we're doing in Iraq now, special forces or special operators.

And in Iraq, that number could double or triple. And once you begin to stand up Syrian allies, local allies, that's going to be a tough sell, tough to do, you will have to probably deploy special operators or special forces into Syria as well. But, again, the model is Afghanistan in the fall of '08. Good intelligence, local allies, special operators, and air strikes.

Whether it will work or not, to defeat ISIS, is another matter. But I think Mark's right. This has really been blown way out of proportion.

WHITFIELD: And so, General, special ops, special forces, if they were engaged, isn't that boots on the ground?

HERTLING: It certainly is, but first of all, Fredricka, as you know, I can't stand that expression of boots on the ground. This is -- these are forces in harm's way, potentially. But when you're an adviser and you're contributing to another force doing things the right way, you have to be right there with them.

And I think that's maybe what General Austin asked the president. Hey, can we send them forward, and the president said, not now because the potential risk involved with having a special operator or a special forces troop being at the front line and potentially getting killed would really be quite devastating to the extension of the strategy today. It -- there's a nuanced approach, and I think there is a disconnect

between the military understanding of the terms and what the politicians, the media, and our public understand in terms of this boots on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks so much. General Mark Hertling and Aaron David Miller.

So something else we're going to discuss straight ahead. When does spanking become child abuse?

Coming up, a heart-to-heart conversation with the family from the south that says you shouldn't spare the rod and spoil the child.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Minnesota Vikings player, Adrian Peterson, won't be on the field when the team takes on the Saints tomorrow. He has been deactivated by his team after being indicted on a child abuse charge. Peterson took a switch to his 4-year-old son. Was that discipline or abuse?

CNN's Gary Tuchman talked with an Atlanta area family who says, in the south, spanking or discipline of that nature is part of the culture.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a school night at Katrina Hall's house in Norcross, Georgia. But her children are staying up late because we're paying a visit to talk about spankings, or what many call them, whoopings. Also in the house this evening, Katrina's mother, Laura. Three generations.

KATRINA HALL, MOTHER: My children are spanked. And I will go to the closet and I will use a belt.

TUCHMAN (on camera): A belt?

HALL: They will get spankings with a belt.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): And for lesser infractions, with her hand. Kanay is 10 years old, Joshua is 4. They are both great kids. But --

HALL: In a four-month time span, honestly, she's gotten a spanking once.

TUCHMAN (on camera): And your son, Joshua, who's 4, how often does he get it?

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: Joshua gets a spanking every single day. I mean, to be more serious, I would say as often as need.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Not long ago, Joshua spat on his sister.

HALL: And I say, son, you will never, ever spit on anyone again. You get a spanking. This is consist of maybe four or five pops on your leg, and that's the end of it.

TUCHMAN (on camera): With what?

HALL: With the belt.

TUCHMAN: Don't you think that it's possible, the very least possible, that they be the same type of kids today if you would just yelled at them, took things away, made them go to sleep early, took the toys away, and didn't lay a hand on them?

HALL: Not at all. Not at all. First of all, my belief system, I don't -- that's not my belief system. You know, I believe in the bible, I believe in the word of God.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Grandmother and mother believe you cannot spare the rod. Single mother, Katrina, also believes former NBA great Charles Barkley, when on CBS' "NFL Today" program on Sunday, he said --

CHARLES BARKLEY, TNT SPORTS ANALYST: I'm from the south, whipping is -- we do that all the time. Every black parent in the south is going to be in jail under those circumstances.

TUCHMAN: A study by a leading researcher at the University of Texas does indicate it's more common for African-Americans to spank children than it is for other groups. Other studies have similar results.

HALL: I don't know one African-American person that has not gotten a spanking and that does not spank their children. I know not one.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Does it concern you that by teaching them that discipline involves hitting, that ultimately they would hit people, too.

HALL: Absolutely not. Because my children are very intelligent. And they understand the chain of command.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): When Katrina was a child, she was punished plenty, too, with a small tree branch. Also known as a switch.

(On camera): So you would go outside, and tell me what you would do there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take a pair of scissors, cut a little switch.

TUCHMAN: And then you would bring the switch in the house, and then what would happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tear them legs up.

TUCHMAN: You'd what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tear them legs up.

HALL: She said, tear them legs up.

TUCHMAN: I think that's pretty clear.

HALL: That's a southern --

(LAUGHTER)

TUCHMAN: So when you got your legs teared up.

HALL: There you go.

TUCHMAN: Did it hurt?

HALL: Of course.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got more whoopings when I was younger, but it wasn't -- it wasn't that bad. But it's just now, it's like, I don't even -- I barely do anything to get whoopings, so --

TUCHMAN: So you feel good about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): In this house, the children are being taught it is part of their culture that if you're bad, you might get spanked, so you become good.

HALL: I love them more than I love myself. When I think about how much I love them, I automatically start to cry.

TUCHMAN: Gary Tuchman, CNN, Norcross, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. We're going to dig a little bit deeper on this. And our next panel of experts will be joining us in the studio -- when does spanking cross the line? Right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The abuse case against Minnesota Vikings player Adrian Peterson has raised a lot of questions, particularly about child discipline. When does spanking cross the line and become child abuse?

Joining me right now in studio to talk about this very important issue is psychologist Eric Fisher and former prosecutor, Tanya Miller.

So, Eric, to you first. You know, how is it that we've come to this point, where it seems that the definition of discipline varies from family to family. And now, versus quite a few years ago, maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago, the law steps in and says, I don't know if we necessarily agree with how you discipline your kid.

DR. ERIK FISHER, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think we have to look at a whole range of issues. And you know, which would really take time to go through the history of that. However, what I always back up to is, the word discipline is often seen -- equated with punishment. And the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to teach. And I think if we look at what we're trying to do with our children, is we're trying to teach them, prepare them for the rest of their life.

And while we look at often parenting and discipline, which was -- you know, had to do with spanking, and which would become abuse, had such a wide range. And we looked at children's rights. Children were often looked at more of as a piece of property. Now they're looked -- to me, and I think we have to look at them as a gift. And this is an opportunity to raise a child to move into their generation of adulthood to understand values and morals and respect. And I just don't think we do that through physical discipline myself.

WHITFIELD: So, you know, a parent feels like one of their biggest jobs is to teach, as you put it. You know, or to, you know, draw the line. But at what point is one family's choice of how they do that too much? I mean, you know, and who, and when should anyone be stepping in?

TANYA MILLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, that's the $1 million question, Fred. I mean, ultimately, parents do legally have the right to use corporal punishment on their children. The question becomes when that corporal punishment is deemed unreasonable under the law. Have you gone too far?

WHITFIELD: And who makes that decision?

MILLER: It's sometimes police officers that show up on the scene, if they've been called by a teacher because the child presents at school with marks, or someone calls 911, a neighbor. The officer has to sort of make the initial call based on the facts. But ultimately, it's the prosecutor. It's the person who makes that decision about who to charge and who not to charge. And there are all kinds of factors that the prosecutor is going to look at.

WHITFIELD: So in the case of, say, Peterson, he says, listen, you know, I'm just doing what my family did with me. And while he admits there were markings on his child, you know, as a result of, you know, this discipline, in his view, his defense is I don't see this as being any different from what I endured as a kid and -- yes, as a kid and there are others who come to his defense who say, you know, I wouldn't be who I am today if not for, you know, that kind of discipline imposed.

So is it an issue of evolution? It may have been acceptable years ago, it is not today. Or is it an issue of, you know, we're in the day and age of photographs and video that's a lot more compelling than the spoken word?

MILLER: I think -- I think there's sort of two ways to look at it. There's sort of cultural evolution, the sort of whether or not that sort of defense that Peterson is putting forward culturally makes sense. As a matter of law, it doesn't. You cannot simply say, well, this is the way my mom raised me, therefore, that's the way I'm raising my son, as a matter of law, it can't be child abuse. That's not the standard.

The standard is whether or not what you did to that child can be considered excessive, excessively cruel, and to have caused that child excessive pain. And I do think that Peterson's case really crosses that line. And we can't conflate this issue of Peterson and abuse with whether or not spanking is reasonable and appropriate and if there is some room on the parenting spectrum for spanking.

That's a larger debate. The law really can't join in on that debate. We're a little bit more constrained in terms of what we can say is abuse and is not abuse.

WHITFIELD: And Eric, as we talk about evolution, there's been an evolution in everything. I mean, we were kids who sat in the backseat of our cars without --

MILLER: Seatbelts.

WHITFIELD: You know, seatbelts, et cetera. Studies, you know.

MILLER: Right.

WHITFIELD: Said, now if you have some kind of, you know, restraint, car restraints, your life is better protected.

MILLER: That's right.

WHITFIELD: And so, you know, the same can be applied to this psychology or this method of discipline. There are studies that say there is mental and physical suffering that comes from corporal punishment.

FISHER: Right.

WHITFIELD: So, you know, how does anyone make reason or, you know, digest this, especially if they want to, you know, recall family history as opposed to referring to new studies?

FISHER: Well, I think not only we have to look at the scars of physical discipline, but often the scars of emotional abuse. And it can be more severe, that we have to pay attention to, however. 2,000 years ago, our world evolved because when we look at the phrase spare the rod, spoil the child is a derivation of a phrase from Proverbs that was written -- put together by King Solomon.

King Solomon was an extremely punitive father. And they felt that that was his belief. The ins of the Book of Proverbs that became part of the Old Testament. His son Rehobom was extremely abusive to his subjects and actually had to escape assassination a few times because he basically took what his dad did to him and passed it on down.

When the New Testament was written, Jesus never talked about spanking your children. He never -- loved thy self as, you know, love neighbor as thyshef. Do unto others as you have them do unto you. We I talk about parenting in my parenting book, I revert back to

equity based models, we want to teach our kids a love-based respect. Not a fear-based respect. And time and time again when I have kids and parents and families --

WHITFIELD: So we heard from the one child in that piece that Gary Tuchman brought and the little girl said, you know, well, I try really hard not to do anything so as to not get, you know, a whooping or a spanking. And the mom even said, you know what? These children are very intelligent and so they know right from wrong.

FISHER: You can do that with a time-out, a response cost or writing essays, other ways that teach them not to use power over people to get control. I believe in teaching people to have power with people. To understand that I want to learn to respect others for who they are, not respect them because they can hurt me. And that's what I feel concern that kids learn through this.

And if parents spent more time parenting and really being present with their kids and forming solid attachments, we wouldn't have these issues. I see the difference between parents don't spend as much quality time with their kids and that could be the confounding variable. Not that they don't spank their kids. And I think we have to look at a qualitative issue.

WHITFIELD: So still a persistent conflict is going to be balancing, you know, philosophical differences with what the law expects or what the law is able to enforce?

MILLER: Right. I mean, listen. My own experience, my mother raised me. She did not spank me. She didn't believe in spanking. She grew up in the south, in the '50s and '60s, with a mother who did believe in it and who enforced her rule by using that kind of punishment. My mother came out OK. But I came out OK, too. And ultimately, I think that the time that my grandmother was parenting in versus the time that my mother was parenting in versus the time that I'm now parenting in has changed.

And I do think that, you know, there is this notion of evolution and this notion that we can change and we can do things differently. The law might not be able to enforce that, but I think that culturally and as a society, discussions like this, people being open to the possibility that there is another way to do it could very well lead to that evolution.

WHITFIELD: All right. Tanya Miller, Eric Fisher, good to see both of you. Thank you so much.

FISHER: Thank you.

MILLER: Good to be here, Fred.

WHITFIELD: It is a conversation that is taking place in kitchens and living rooms everywhere right now, particularly as a result of all that's happened in the NFL. Appreciate it. All right. A man arrested for allegedly starting a huge California

wildfire. And while he sits in jail, the fire he is accused of setting threatens thousands of homes now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: One huge wildfire raging across California is not only threatening homes and lives. It's also costing up to $5 million a day to fight it.

CNN's Dan Simon has the latest on the man who's accused of starting the fire -- Dan.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredericka, we are at the courthouse in Placerville, California, where the man accused of intentionally setting this wildfire had his first court appearance. 37-year-old Wayne Allen Huntsman pleading not guilty to the charge of felony arson. Authorities not revealing the evidence against him, but the devastation has been enormous. More than 75,000 acres have been charred, and thousands of residents have been forced to evacuate their homes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no stopping this fire. They dropped retardant on it. They dropped water. The air crews were --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's sickening. It's horrifying. And it's sickening. And it's just awful. I don't know what else to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: The terrain is really steep so getting air support has been critical. And it's always an impressive sight to see those DC-10 air tankers dropping 12,000 gallons of red fire retardant. We should also point out the California drought. We're in a three-year drought situation and that's what's causing this fire really to burn.

There's so much dry vegetation out there. And we're seeing 12 fires burning at once in the state of California and officials say it's because of the drought. They say this is an unprecedented situation.

As for Mr. Huntsman, he'll have his next court appearance in October -- Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks so much, Dan Simon.

All right. So incredible drought in California. How long is this going to go on?

Jennifer Gray with us now.

JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes.

WHITFIELD: And it -- I mean, it really is noticeably dry. I was just a visitor in California last week. I can't believe how much I felt so dehydrated all the time.

GRAY: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Let alone looking at, you know, the landscape.

GRAY: You're exactly right. It is really, really dry. And it's going to take much, much more than just a couple of days of rain to reverse this. This is a look at the King Fire from space. NASA provided these images. And you can see the smoke just billowing up to the north and east.

Like Dan said, 76,000 acres have burned. 4500 firefighters fighting this. 21,000 homes threatened. And smoke plume stretches over 250 miles. Just incredible images.

Fredericka, you're right, that drought is not going anywhere any time soon. Not improving. 95 percent of the state in severe drought, 82 percent in exceptional drought. And here is the forecast over the next couple of days. Nothing more than about a 10 percent chance of rain. Temperatures in the mid-80s, low 90s. So firefighters in extreme heat battling these blazes.

I want to switch gears because in west Texas we're seeing the very opposite thing. We are seeing a lot of rain in west Texas. Flooding has been a concern. New Mexico, Arizona as well, will still see that flooding today, so it is worth a mention, we are going to see those flood watches, warnings and even flash flood warnings in effect, Fredricka, as we go through the day today.

Should be wrapping up today, though, and getting better by tomorrow.

WHITFIELD: All right. Good warnings. Thanks so much, Jennifer. Appreciate that.

All right. Hello, again, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. We start this hour in northeast Pennsylvania, where as many as 400 law enforcement personnel are helping in the search for suspected cop killer Eric Frein.