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Two White House Security Incidents; U.S. Investigating ISIS Militant in Video; Hunt For Suspected Cop Killer Intensifies; Handling NFL Domestic Violence Cases; 90 Percent of Fans Still Watch NFL; Film Tonight On Whitey Bulger

Aired September 20, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hello again, I'm Ana Cabrera. Thanks for being here.

We began with two security incidents at the White House this weekend. Last night, a man jump a fence actually made it inside the President's house before he was apprehended. And then today a car continued to drive through a barricade even after police tried to get him to stop.

I'm joined now by Erin McPike in Washington and law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes. First to you, Erin, what do we know about this second incident that happened today?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, first of all, as you said, it's an incident. It is not a breach like we saw last night. And what happened was a man in a car was driving toward the barricade in front of the White House, on the east side of the White House, at 15th and e streets. As he was driving, secret service officers told him to stop, but he didn't. He didn't pass the barricade, he later did get out of his car. He's been taken into custody. But not arrested. So a little bit different there. They're currently doing a security sweep of that car, to make sure that nothing bad could have happened, or that this man didn't pose a bigger risk. But it's a little bit separate because he did not make it through that barricade -- Ana.

CABRERA: What ultimately stopped him?

MCPIKE: You know, we're still getting some details from secret service on this. And they haven't given as many as we've expected. Because obviously, after the breach last night, things are a little tense around here. There has been extra -- there's been a bigger presence of secret service agents around, secret service officers around throughout the day, trying to figure out what went wrong last night. And last night, as you may know, the President left with his two daughters shortly after 7:00 p.m., and then four minutes later, this 42-year-old man from Texas scaled the fence, the front of the north entrance of the White House, ran about 105 yards to the front door in the north portico and entered inside before secret service officers finally apprehended him. And then sent him via ambulance to GW Medical Center where he's being evaluated today -- Ana.

CABRERA: Let's bring in Tom here. Obviously, two instances in 24 hours doesn't look good. I imagine secret service is sort of scrambling. What's the damage control here? TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (on the phone): Ana, I think

that, you know, we'll have to learn more about this. We could have somebody who was just lost. I drive by that entrance almost every day. And you know, it's a big barricaded kind of entrance and maybe he pulled into that, you know, off of 15th Street into that drive, not realizing yet, and maybe he didn't hear the orders and was confused.

And you know, ultimately he did get out of the car. You know, we had a year ago next month the incident with the woman that did run over a secret service agent, rammed the barricade and then turned around and led the police on a low-speed chase through downtown Washington and ended up being shot and killed near the capital. So, I think in this case, the security police, secret service police at that entrance must have realized that he was not intending an attack, but maybe just disoriented in or in some other way confused.

CABRERA: Interesting. Erin, do we know where the first family is right now?

MCPIKE: Well, the President and his two daughters are at Camp David. They're there for the weekend. We actually don't know where Michelle Obama is. And we have not gotten a whole lot of confirmation from secret service about where she was last night. But she's not with the rest of the first family. But what we know is that they were not here at the residence last night at the time of the breach and they have not been here for the remainder of the weekend.

CABRERA: OK. Erin McPike and Tom Fuentes, thanks to both of you. We appreciate it.

Turning now to some disturbing new developments, a new ISIS video that shows the moments before a mass killing. But it is the voice in this video, from that man, that has U.S. intelligence officials scrambling right now, what could be an American voice. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: And we're here with the soldiers of Bashad. You can see them now digging their own graves in very place where they were stationed. They said that we abandoned the front and stop fighting the kufar, to turn our guns towards the Muslims. They lied. Malahi. We are the harshest towards the kufar. And the flames of war are only beginning to intensify.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Again, another propaganda video from ISIS. And right now, U.S. authorities are running vocal and facial recognition to try to identify this ISIS militant who appears to be in a significant position of power within the organization as their spokesperson. But as the world's eyes are fixed squarely on front of the ISIS, U.S. officials say another band of extremists could pose a more direct possibly an imminent threat to the U.S. We are getting word that U.S. counterterrorism agencies are now tracking multiple terror plots traced to al Qaeda Syrian affiliates. Among their goals, to use sophisticated bombs to attack U.S. planes. CNN's Brian Todd is joining me now on the phone. Brian, what are you

learning now about this investigation into the man we just showed everybody on the video?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, we were told that U.S. intelligence officials are combing through the video very finely, trying to find any clues they can about this man. They say that he could be an American because of the fact that he speaks almost perfect English, because of his accent. We were told yesterday they think he could possibly be a North American, but it's the accent and the seamless English that he speaks which are helping them figure out that he could very well be an American. They're doing voice analysis, as you mentioned, they're doing all sorts of other technological means to try to identify who he might be.

And what is interesting, is that if he is a North American, it could be the first time that a North American member of ISIS has actually, possibly committed a war crime on camera. Because of the fact that after that part that you just aired, he is seemingly with about four or five other jihadists, seen shooting these several Syrians who we believe are soldiers, dressed in civilian clothing, shooting them, and then they tumble into these graves that they just dug for themselves. So, if that's the case, he could be committing a war crime on camera, which means that U.S. officials are going to be even more keen to try to identify him, and either capture or kill him.

CABRERA: It's sickening to hear about the killings in that video. And Brian, I wonder what it means, given the fact that this person is seemingly a spokesperson in the video. Does that say that he might be higher up in a political position within ISIS?

TODD: U.S. officials believe that is a possibility, Ana, that he could have a position of some responsibility within ISIS, and may have worked his way up the ranks. Also, you know, westerners are very valuable to them for two reasons. When they put them in these videos, you know, when they speak, and when they do these types of acts, they serve two purposes. Number one, they scare western audiences. But they also serve as a recruiting tool for ISIS to try to recruit western jihadists, who are very valuable to them in a number of ways. They have western passports. Some of them may have some combat training. Things like that. So they really value westerners. And that's another reason why this man could be in a position of some responsibility for them.

CABRERA: All right. Brian Todd, thanks for your report. Let's talk more about this.

Joining me now are military analyst retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, and Michael Weiss, foreign policy columnist. Thanks to both of you.

So, Colonel, let's start with you. Obviously you see that video. And as an American, as a westerner, it does raise kind much those hairs on the back of your neck to think that, you know, one of us is there, and could they come back here. Is the U.S. able to really sophisticatedly track who he could be, and who else could be there from America? LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, they're

trying. But this is a very difficult problem, because so many people travel. And most people are getting into Syria through Turkey. A lot of people travel to Turkey on legitimate business. So it's impossible to stop and track, or look at every single person. So they have to come up with some sort of a profile where they figure who might likely going over to join ISIS. This is a real big problem for law enforcement and the intelligence community. Law enforcement in the United States, the intelligence community once they're overseas. The problem will be is when they return. If they're not identified, they just walk off the airplane at JFK, and walk back into society to do whatever they want to do.

CABRERA: Michael, what do you think, or have you learned is being done to try to track Americans? We've heard now from multiple officials that there may be up to 100 Americans who have gone to fight for extremists groups in Syria.

MICHAEL WEISS, FOREIGN POLICY COLUMNIST: Sure. I mean, look, I think Western Intelligence Agencies are all coordinating in this effort, right? And the Brits especially, and French who have many more foreign fighters who have gone off to join ISIS. The problem is, a number of Americans that are said to, you know, have joined this contingent of foreign fighters. Not all of them join ISIS. Some of them join other rebel groups in Syria, from the mainstream to the other jihadi formation such as the -- which is the official al-Qaeda affiliate, which is indeed made these terrorist threats against the United States. It's incredibly difficult to determine when somebody leaves America's soil and then winds up in Turkey and crosses that border, what group, what faction have they joined arms with. We don't know.

There's another component to this, which is a lot of the guys in ISIS hiked men were former detainees of American soldiers in Iraq. I spoke to an active duty colonel yesterday who said a lot of these were in Camp Bucca. So, there is a process now on the way where the U.S. military is trying to figure out who used to be an American prisoner of war who is now in sort of the ISIS upper echelons.

CABRERA: And Colonel, if you know, if indeed this man is an American citizen, you know, does the U.S. have legal authority to maybe go after him there with like a drone attack, or an air strike of some sort? Remember, Anwar al Awlaki, he was an American working with al Qaeda and there was a lot of controversy surrounding the U.S. targeting him.

FRANCONA: And there will be controversy again, because it's not quite clear what the legal things are -- I mean, he's broken the law already by merely going over there to join that group. Or even intending to join that group, he's broken the law. If he's involved in this war crime over there, he's gone one step further. So at some point, the determination will have to be made, is he an enemy combatant, legal combatant, what would his status be. But once the bombing starts, I mean, he's at risk, of course.

CABRERA: All right. Guys, stick around. Thank you so much. ISIS, of course, grabbing the headlines now. But make no mistake, al Qaeda is still out there. And still a major threat. Ahead, is that terror group now growing, while our focus is elsewhere?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Amid the highly public beheadings of journalist and now aid workers and the personal talk aimed at President Obama, ISIS really has been at the forefront of the national conversation when we talk about terrorism. But with all eyes on ISIS, al Qaeda also appears eager to get back into the terrorist limelight.

CNN's Pam Brown explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAM BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is newer, even smaller bombs than the ones in these toothpaste tubes that have U.S. officials so concerned. In American intelligence officials said publicly, the government is worried about a terrorist cell in Syria known as Khorasan, saying it is working with al-Qaeda bomb makers to target U.S. flights. The same bomb makers including Ibraham al-Asiri. Behind the failed 2001 underwear bomb in the Detroit bound plane and the bomb hidden in a printer cartridge on a cargo plane in 2010.

JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: These Khorasan groups so-called, which I guess is out there is potentially yet another threat to the homeland.

BROWN: U.S. Officials say, Khorasan is made up of al- Qaeda fighters, who were fighting in the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region. The worry is there now in Syria, working to recruit European and American foreign fighters, who can use their passports to smuggle bombs on to U.S. bound airplanes.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: One of the operatives who has moved to Afghanistan-Pakistan border region to Syria is a Saudi operative called Abdul Rahman Al Jahani. He is an experienced fighter. He was part of al-Qaeda's command's structure in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region. In a year or so ago, he moved to Syria. And, according to United States Intelligence services, he is involved in plotting attacks against western targets.

BROWN: Wednesday, U.S. Officials hinted at those same concerns, telling Congress al-Qaeda affiliates are intent on targeting U.S. flights.

MATTHEW OLSEN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: Over the past five years, Al-Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula sought on three times to take down an airplane bound for the United States.

BROWN: And, U.S. Officials say there is fierce competition between al-Qaeda and ISIS to be known as the biggest, baddest Jihadi organization.

CRUICKSHANK: That would be a very, very worrying scenario indeed, if these two groups start to try to outdo each other to launch attacks back in the west. For al-Qaeda, it would be a way to restore its relevance when ISIS is grabbing all the headlines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: I want to bring back in now Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona and Michael Weiss. Michael, should we be concerned that al Qaeda, and this new group Khorasan will try to maybe one-up ISIS, while America's focusing on ISIS?

WEISS: Absolutely. I think what's happened is, al Qaeda has been subsumed or eclipsed by the success of ISIS. ISIS has managed to establish a de facto state. It is a terrorist army, not a terrorist organization. And if you look at what core al-Qeada has been doing recently, this terrorist affiliate group that they found in India for instance, they're trying to move the battle to Southeast Asia. The Khorasan group in Syria which is now trying to link up with the official al Qaeda franchise. It's about getting the thunder back. And what's interesting about this new cell that been moved into Syria, this is sort of a back to basics, or return to the original al Qaeda formation. The guys went to Afghanistan, even in the '90s and early 2000s to fight with the Taliban and to defend al Qaeda sort of headquarters there. They're now being imported to kind of show the al-Nusra guys most of whom are Syrian nationals how to kind of regain the luster that has been lost in this sort of jihadi war. So, absolutely, this is the real danger, al-Qaeda is now going to try and sort of one-up ISIS.

CABRERA: Because they're competing against each other, right, Colonel?

FRANCONA: Yes. And this is where you have the problem, because as they said, they're going to try and outdo each other. Because they're striving for relevance. And Al Qaeda is now feeling that now they're in second place to ISIS. And it's just not who is more important on the battlefield, it's recruitment. And how do you survive in the future. And we saw a lot of people defecting from al Qaeda and al- Nusra into ISIS. And you know, they're losing all of these people. And they need to get them back. And they're going to keep trying to do that. And a spectacular event will do that for them. That will put them back in first place among terrorists.

CABRERA: You know, ISIS' strategy has been so in your face, with these videos that are just so alarming. And it seems to be effective with their recruitment. And we're seeing the escalation, and evolution of their messaging as well. I mean, is that effective in ISIS still kind of taking the strong hold when it comes to terrorism, or is al Qaeda actually smarter in kind of being behind the scenes?

FRANCONA: Well, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think we're seeing that ISIS actually has the upper hand when it comes to this messaging. Because remember it used to take a few days, or even a week before al Qaeda would get something out. ISIS gets something out the next day. I mean, they're very, very effective, they're much better at messaging than al Qaeda was.

CABRERA: In the recruiting, you were saying because they are getting these really well educated people. WEISS: And look, I mean, the video you just exhibited in the last

segment, that had Hollywood production value to it. I mean, there are multiple camera angles, the resolution was very high quality. I'm sure they got that out within hours, if not days, right? Ayman al Zawahiri, the head of global al-Qaeda it takes him weeks for one of his communiques to reach sort of the public sphere. This is the problem. What's interesting to, in the beginning of the Syrian conflict, al-Nusra the official al Qaeda affiliate --

CABRERA: In Syria.

WEISS: Yes, was actually sort of a jihadi light group, they were doing things like guarding churches and trying to win hearts and minds by not executing minorities and non-Muslims. Now their strategy has been to move more toward the ISIS sort of ideology and more toward the ISIS motive governance. They're getting much more draconian in their measures. They're getting much more hardcore on the ground. So again, this is another manifestation of them trying to compete.

CABRERA: And that leads me really to my next question about the President's plan, that he laid before the American people and what Congress just voted on, and that is, arming these moderate Syrian rebels to try to fight ISIS. But yet you just mentioned, al Nusra in Syria. We know this new group Khorasan. You know, Colonel, is it smart now to go and arm the rebels? Do we know who's who?

FRANCONA: Well, I think we know who's who, the problem is they're not interested in fighting ISIS, they interested in overthrowing Bashar al Assad. And they've said that. They said, we are our goal is to do to remove the government. If you want us to fight ISIS, you have to commit that when that's over, you'll going to help us remove Bashar al Assad. And so far, we haven't done that. And if we're going to train 5,000, it's going to take us a year. That is way too little, way too late. We're going to have to get in there with something more than that. And down the road, if this group, either al Qaeda or Khorasan, or ISIS poses the kind of threat that they're talking about, I think we'll going to have to go back to the president and say, you'll going to need to put ground troops in there. And the free Syrian army isn't it. Unfortunately I know it's politically dangerous, but it has to be American troops.

CABRERA: Colonel Rick Francona and Michael Weiss. Thank you both so much. Great insight into the conversation.

Up next, a search for a suspected cop killer in Pennsylvania is intensifying at this hour. Hundreds of law enforcement officers are combing the woods right now. We'll have the latest on the search next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Right now, extreme precautions are being used in the hunt for a suspected cop killer in Pennsylvania. Eric Frein, he's a survivalist with a grudge against cops, possibly holed up right now somewhere in the Pocono Mountains. Now police are telling people in this area, in Price and Barrett townships to stay inside, get away from the windows. Authorities are really concerned for the safety of this community. Now, Frein is believed to have been the person who ambushed and gunned down Pennsylvania State Officer Bryon Dickson last week. Another officer was also seriously injured.

Let's bring in our Alexandra Field who's been covering this story in Eastern Pennsylvania. Alexandra, a lot of action in the hunt last night and today. Are police any closer right now to getting this guy?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, they're trying to make the most out of whatever remaining daylight hours we have. What we know is that officers have lined up in a line formation, they've been moving through the woods that way, trying to canvas the area, where they've been searching for him frankly for days, actually an entire week. But this is someone who has continued to managed to evade them. If you look at the woods out there, you can see why, we're talking about really dense, thickly wooded areas. So law enforcement is trying to throw every possible resource into finding this suspect. Eric Matthew Frein and again forming in about line to do their search sort of foot by foot as they moved through here.

Again, it's important to have daylight on their side right now. Because once night falls, that's when we've seen issues the last couple of nights. On Thursday evening, there was a report from somebody who believed that they had seen Frein. Then last night police believe that they had closed in on him. Shots were fired in the area where they believe that they have him surrounded. But today they're continuing to look. Three hundred officers strong. Here's what Frein has on his side. He is a trained survivalist. He was on the rifle team in high school, he's part of a military simulation unit. He's known to have a grudge against law enforcement.

But perhaps even more key here is the fact that where they are searching is the area that Frein is from. They are in the general vicinity of his parents' home that where a lot of this search has been concentrated. So, we're talking about a man who knows this area well, knows these woods, these trails. And he sort of backpacks, this is a place that he knows very well and it's a place where the law enforcement officers are clearly having a whole lot of trouble trying to locate him. And finally put an end to this very, very tense week here.

CABRERA: Interesting, it seems that they were so close yesterday, and now things are kind of quieted down again. But we know you'll stay on top of it for us. Alexandra Field, thank you so much.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell says he is taking action against domestic violence, but is it enough what he's doing? My next guest, NFL legend Fran Tarkenton says, no. He'll explain, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: I made a mistake. I'm not satisfied with the process that we went through. I'm not satisfied with the conclusions. And that's why we came out last month, on August 28th, and we said we're going to make changes to our policies. We made changes to our discipline. We acknowledged the mistake, my mistake. And we said we're going to do better going forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That's NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. He said he is determined to get it right when it comes to how the NFL handles domestic violence cases. But not everyone is so convinced.

Let's get some perspective from a Hall of Famer, Fran Tarkenton. He played in three Super Bowls, over 18 NFL seasons. He's chairman and founder of onemorecustomer.com.

Fran, we appreciate your time.

You were here with us, with CNN yesterday, and you said fans should stop going to NFL games, and basically boycott the league. Why do you feel so strongly about that?

FRAN TARKENTON, CHAIRMAN & FOUNDER, ONEMORECUSTOMER.COM & FORMER HALL OF FAME NFL PLAYER: Well, I keep hearing from the commissioner who I have great respect for. I made a mistake. I keep hearing from other owners, we're going to get it right. But then I hear the press conference yesterday and there's no sense of urgency. We're going to put this thing off until sup solution until after the Super Bowl. They're hiring some very talented women who understand this domestic violence issue. That's nice. They have some sensitivity meetings, and educate the players, that's nice.

But that doesn't address the problem. We've got players out there that are beating women, threatening to kill them. These are 270- pound, 300-pound people. Domestic violence is not new to American society. It's in all parts of society. But the national football league is the most visible part of America. And when our owners have to almost be forced to discipline these people, when they commit domestic violence, they want to continue to play them, give them a little two-game suspension, and some owners are continuing to play these people even after they've been accused of domestic violence.

This is not near enough. It's still the fame of professional football. It's win, baby, win. You've got 32 owners. It's not about money. They desperately want to win. And they don't want their star players on the sideline. And we saw what happened in Florida State. Jameis Winston has been given a pass for the past year. They covered it up. The state police covered it up, the local police and everybody else. They finally, after more problems he's had, they're going to give him half a game suspension. Now last night we said, oh, now we feel guilty because people are talking about, we're going to give him a full game suspension. These people --

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Fran, obviously, this is an issue that has touched such a nerve. We've been talking about it now for a couple of weeks. Maybe if the owners aren't taking enough action, or the commissioner is not taking enough action, you say maybe the fans have some power. But I wonder what you think about a new poll about how fans are responding. We'll talk about that as soon as we come back from a quick break. So stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: One of NFL's greatest players is not happy with how the league is handling this recent rash of abuse cases.

We're talking with NFL Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton. He is now the chairman and founder of onemorecustomer.com.

Fran, right before that break, I mentioned this poll. Almost 90 percent of people in a new NBC Universal poll say they have not cut back on how much they watch the NFL. Only 11 percent say they are less likely to watch. What's your reaction to this? And do fans need to take a stand?

TARKENTON: Well, people are not going to stop watching football. I mean, it's the most watched sport in the world. It's growing. It's fun. It's great entertainment. But that's not the point. If these owners who say they want to do the right thing, the only way to stop domestic violence among the players that are playing today is to ban them from the league. The Baltimore Ravens got it right. They took to their star running back Ray Rice and cut him from the team. He is not allowed to play for the Baltimore Ravens ever again. That's the type of leadership we need. That's the type of action we need. If we had zero tolerance for domestic violence, and we should, then we should not let these people play. And until we get to that point, we will not make an impact on these people, and what they're doing with domestic violence issues, and also hitting 4-year-old children.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: We're showing right now a list of players who have recently been arrested. We've been talking about Ray Rice, Greg Hardy, Ray McDonald, Adrian Peterson, Jonathan Dwyer. Ray McDonald's here in the center of the screen. He's one who is still playing. He's with the 49ers. He played in the first couple of games. He was arrested but not charged. Should his case be treated differently from the others?

TARKENTON: No. And where are the people of San Francisco, California? I haven't heard the governor of that state come out, or the Senator. In Minnesota, the governor and Senator came out, I came out, all of us said we're embarrassed. We should not do it. People change. Nobody in San Francisco's come out and said anything about what they're doing, because they want the 49ers to win. I understand that.

But the 49ers, is it more important than doing the right thing and not letting Ray McDonald play? I think it is. Until we have owners who take this leadership, and we have some that are doing it, the owners in Minnesota, the will family, the owners at the Baltimore Ravens, they're doing it. The rest of these owners are silent. I know they want to win. We all want to win. But at what price? To let these people go out and abuse women and abuse children, not right, just not right. CABRERA: What about innocent until proven guilty?

TARKENTON: Well, they can let the process go. We've got Aaron Hernandez, he's in prison. He's accused of murdering two people. But he hasn't had a trial. And we kicked him out of the league a year ago. When these people -- it takes the process a long time. While going through the process, they should not be playing.

Now he's going to get a -- Adrian Peterson is going to get a fancy lawyer who got Roger Clemens off down in Texas and they'll spend all the money of the teams, and the players, because the players are millionaires, and the owners are billionaires. And probably helping them beat the case. That doesn't matter to me. These people are being accused, and admit it, they batter women. They hit women. They threaten women with their lives. In some cases we have evidence on video. It's just not acceptable.

CABRERA: Fran, if you were NFL commissioner -- I know you're saying that maybe Goodell is not the answer. But if you were the leader of this organization, what would you do right now to fix that?

TARKENTON: He's the leader. But he answers to 32 billionaire owners. They are the people that control what's going on. They can fire Roger Goodell tomorrow. The president of the United States has power, because -- unless they impeach him, he's going to be here for another two years. Goodell doesn't have that power. He has to answer to the 32 owners. And they have got to be the ones that step up. Bad news does not get better with age. And this bad news will get worse as we go along. There will be more reactions. There will be more people that are going to raise their voices. Everything doesn't stay the same. They're at great risk of losing and hurting an entity that is just unbelievably successful. The only thing that could compare to it is Alibaba.

CABRERA: We'll end it there, Fran. You are a well-respected voice in the NFL. I hope those owners are listening to what you're saying.

Thank you for your time.

TARKENTON: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: He's one of the most notorious criminals America has ever seen. Next, James "Whitey" Bulger in his own words.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: James "Whitey" Bulger ruled Boston's criminal underworld for nearly three decades before fleeing the city, and eluding police for 16 years. The mobster was considered so dangerous the FBI put him on their most-wanted list right behind Osama bin Laden.

Tonight is a special film about Whitey Bulger, who is currently serving life in prison.

I want to bring in John "Red" Shae. He was an enforcer in Bulger's Winter Hill Gang, and author of "Rat Bastard: The Life and Times of South Boston's Most Honorable Irish Mobster." Also joining me at this hour, CNN contributor and legal analyst, Mel Robbins, from Boston.

Red, I know you always believed Whitey was an informant for the FBI. But we never heard from Bulger during his trial. He never testified. But in tonight's film, you do hear from him.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember the day when Hank and I were with you, and showed you the so-called informant file that John Conley had been keeping?

JAMES "WHITEY" BULGER, CONVICTED MOBSTER: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember your reaction to seeing that?

BULGER: I was shocked. I was angry. I couldn't believe it. I considered the wispy trail that ever happened to me in my life. I couldn't believe anyone could dream of such a thing. I never knew it existed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you recognize the information that was contained in it? Is it anything you would have talked to John Conley about?

BULGER: No, I was the guy who did the directing. They didn't direct me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are some of the things they would give you in terms of tips?

BULGER: The thing that we needed most was, number one, was wiretaps. And then like surveillance, search warrants, indictments, so guys could get a chance to make a run for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you weren't providing information to these people, why were they willing to give you all this information?

BULGER: For money. For money. Money's the common denominator. A way of doing business. It happened all the time. It will never stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember you told me once that Christmas is for kids and cops.

BULGER: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many people would you be paying off in a holiday period?

BULGER: Everybody I knew I took care of at Christmas time. Put money in envelopes for all the police. The state police, the Boston police, the ATF, and the FBI. But I'm not going to say who they were. I would never say anybody's name. But I took care of everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this in cash? BULGER: Always cash. I never handed anyone money, I handed them an

envelope. It was a little easier for them to accept it, you know? Or I put the money maybe in a box, if there was that much money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the most amount of money you ever paid an FBI person, FBI person, agent?

BULGER: At one time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.

BULGER: Maybe 25,000, $50,000.

(END AUDIO FEED)

CABRERA: Did that whet the appetite for our film?

Red, what do you think of what he just said?

JOHN "RED" SHAE, FORMER MEMBER, WINTER HILL GANG & AUTHOR: I think it's a bunch of hogwash. If you knew Whitey like I did, you would know what a manipulator he is in life.

First of all, let's just get away from him being called an informant during his time in the Boston mob. Let's go back years. Back years. When he was going to Alcatraz. When he went to Alcatraz, he ratted -- he ratted on the guys he did the crime with. He did. And that's -- that had been found out and the files were found out about and discovered during that time. This is many years prior to him becoming an informant with John Conley and the rest of these guys.

And second of all, he and Stevie Fleming, they were inseparable. Stevie Fleming said we had been giving information and paying along the way. We have done it all. We did it all.

And second of all, Whitey Bulger met with so many law enforcement and top law enforcement people. Are you telling me that every top law enforcement people he met with was on the take? I don't believe that. I believe that maybe some might have been, absolutely. But not everyone.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: Well, and Mel, Red just brought up a really good point. We just heard in that video, that clip from Bulger himself, that he wasn't going to give up any names of those law enforcement people that he knew and worked with, but yet he's ratted out some of his mobster friends. Now if Bulger truly wanted people to know that he wasn't an informant, why wouldn't he have testified when he had the chance?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Ana, I'm so glad that you asked that question. Because as a defense attorney, that's why I used to be a criminal defense attorney before I became a legal commentator. And I'm sitting here saying to myself, OK, wait a minute. Whitey Bulger is 85 years old. He's obviously going to die in prison. He is facing a litany of charges. If there was ever a time to get on the stand and just sing, because you ain't got nothing to lose, the trial would have been it. But he declined to testify at all. And so it's interesting to see him come out now and be talking like this, and I find it frankly fascinating and curious that he didn't testify, curious to hear Red's take on it. And I think this CNN movie that's airing tonight is so tantalizing. I wouldn't be shocked if half of Boston isn't tuned in.

CABRERA: Well, Red, it has been over a year since Bulger was found guilty and 20 years since he fled Boston. But people really are still fascinated by his story. Why do you think that is?

SHAE: I think there's a romance for the underworld and organized crime. I think there's definitely a romance for that.

But getting back to him being an informant, how do you explain -- explain now the files that were found out about and discovered for many years back him prior to him going into Alcatraz? How do you explain that? Is that a conspiracy too? Really.

(LAUGHTER)

CABRERA: Mel, you know, you just talked about how he didn't testify but, yet, we do know he is appealing his case. Might we hear from him in the future?

ROBBINS: We might hear from him through a media outlet. You're not going to hear from him in court. Here's why he's appealing. He's in prison. He's got nothing else to do. He's facing two consecutive life sentences he's 85 years old. He's lucky if he's going to survive another seven years. So what do you to occupy your time in federal prison? One thing you do is work on your appeals and you're a complete annoyance to prosecutors. And that's what he's going to it continue to do. So I'm not surprised that he's appealed. I don't think he's going to be successful, because the fact of the matter is, once you've been convicted in federal court, it's pretty darn difficult to have it overturned. And frankly, once the feds are bringing a trial of this magnitude against you, they have got rooms and rooms and rooms of evidence against you like they did with him. He was implicated in at least 11 murders.

CABRERA: Yep. Yep.

Mel and Red, thank you both. We'll leave it there. We appreciate it.

Of course, the CNN film "Whitey: United States of America versus James J. Bulger" airs tonight. You can watch it at 9:00 eastern.

Also tonight at 8:00 eastern, "Double Agent: Inside al Qaeda for the CIA." You can catch both of our specials right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Welcome back. Meet this week's "CNN Hero."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I really hate when it hurts. It's a really sharp pain. I get all teary. The shots really scared me a lot. And they still scare me now.

ELIMELECH GOLDBERG, RABBI & CNN HERO: When children get a diagnosis like cancer or any major disease, they lose any sense of feeling that they're controlling their lives. They're prodded and poked and touched and they're often so afraid.

Our daughter, Sara, was diagnosed with leukemia. She was such an incredible little soul who taught me about the power that's inside of ourselves.

Are you ready?

(SHOUTING)

GOLDBERG: OK. Begin!

(SHOUTING)

GOLDBERG: After our daughter passed away, I started a program that provides classes to children who are sick to teach them the martial arts.

(SHOUTING)

GOLDBERG: Good.

To make them feel powerful.

Every single type of martial arts uses the breath to take control.

I'm a black belt in Choi Kwang-Do.

Hold it and release.

We use the martial arts as a platform for medication, relaxation, to allow children to gain these tools.

You're totally in control.

To really face down so much of the fear, the anger that accompanies pain.

Breathe in.

And you can see that light on their face. I feel like their souls are shining.

(SHOUTING)

GOLDBERG: You did it.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I do have the power to make the pain go away.