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Dr. Drew
Salt Mom Case; Was Son`s Death Preventable?
Aired September 22, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, suspicions about the mom before her little boy died. Were there warning signs that someone
ignored?
Plus, new nude celebrity photos leaked online. Who is doing this and why?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. My co-host, of course, is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, why was a college student -- why was a college asking college students about their sex life, Sam?
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. And questions like how often do you have sex and with how many partners.
And, Drew, I know you`re in New York, you forgot your trusty brain. So if you have any questions, if you want me to hold it up, just holler.
PINSKY: Oh, Sam, don`t worry, I`ll be calling on you. I hope, anyway, if we get something interesting going on. Thank you for that.
But first up, revelations in the -- oh, hold up the brain right away.
SCHACHER: Oh, OK.
PINSKY: Right now, because the case of so-called salt mom, the reason she got into trouble -- turn it sideways, OK, good.
The brain sits in the cranium, right? And there`s no room for it to expand. Well, in the case of salt mom, it`s alleged that she gave her 5-
year-old salt and restricted his water. So salt outside of the brain, just say the brain swelled and it crushed the brain within the cranium. Yes.
It crushed the whole apparatus.
SCHACHER: Sad.
PINSKY: It`s sad.
SCHACHER: I don`t want to use the brain anymore. I`m sorry. It`s making me sad.
PINSKY: She murdered allegedly her 5-year-old son by giving him lethal doses of salt and restricting water, in another case of what`s
called Munchausen by proxy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A woman charged with the most unthinkable crime, now in shackles for killing her old son, 5-year-old Garnett Spears (ph).
Investigators say the 26-year-old poisoned her son with sodium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that it was common table salt that you would buy at any supermarket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It took months and an investigation spanning the East Coast to indict Spears as she moved to Kentucky to be near here her
family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Some of those images were from Facebook.
Sam, what more do we know?
SCHACHER: Well, Dr. Drew, according to the child fatality report that I have right here, which was obtained by a local newspaper, even before his
first birthday, there were already high levels of salt within his blood. Also, a friend of the hospital staff announced all of them that she wanted
to harm her son, at a time he was only five weeks old.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, so they were aware they were concerned because of the high sodium levels. They heard her remark that the child would be --
she would rather be without the child. And nobody did anything then?
SCHACHER: No, that`s not true. There`s a number of hospitals did alert authorities. And I`m sure we`ll get to that with more information.
And PCS was even called. But then that`s where some trouble ensued. We don`t know why she was able to continue to have custody with all that new
knowledge that was reported by the hospital staff.
PINSKY: Got it. All right.
SCHACHER: But really quickly, Dr. Drew, also within that time frame, I wanted people to know that the medical records showed he had bleeding
eyes and he was bleeding through his ears. And that was with no medical explanation.
PINSKY: Yes. I saw that. I didn`t know -- it didn`t make sense to me, because relevant bleeding from the ear means a skull fracture and he
didn`t have a skull fracture. What do they mean by bleeding from the eyes? Again, this is all very incomplete still.
Let`s bring in my panel. Vanessa Barnett, hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, attorney, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parent Tell",
Michael Catherwood, my co-host on "Love Line". You can download that podcast of his and my show at Lovelineshow.com.
Loni, what are your thoughts on this case?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think people want to point to the doctors and the hospitals and say why didn`t they catch this now
that we hear there were some symptoms showing up at age 1 or even before?
But, look, I want the focus to stay on the mother here. She`s the perpetrator. She`s the one that was doing this to her son. And we`re
sitting here in hindsight.
We can look at the pattern that built up over the years. But she was going from hospital to hospital, from doctor to doctor, and there really
wasn`t a time where there was a pattern built up. She would move around so that she wasn`t caught. And if someone started to catch on to what she was
doing, she would then change hospitals or change doctors so that it was harder for them to really keep track of what they were doing.
She was very manipulative in this. She was putting out this image that she was this wonderful angel mother taking care of this child who had
all of these medical injuries, and that, you know, she was almost over- burdened by it, but she was doing the right thing and posting these beautiful pictures, of she and her son, and she really put this image out
there that tricked a lot of people. Very manipulative and it ended up costing her son his life.
PINSKY: And I have to remind everyone that although the child did die, the allegations against the mom are really just that at this point,
they`re allegations. But it`s a suspicious and confusing story.
Vanessa?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: The problem is, we can`t just place all the blame on salt mom, because we do need to hold these people
accountable.
PINSKY: Who?
BARNETT: They had ample information. The hospitals, the authorities.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Vanessa, Vanessa, it`s so easy to play quarterback from hindsight as Loni says. It`s clear now. They only had pieces of the same
information.
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, LOVE LINES: Hold on.
PINSKY: Mike, what?
CATHERWOOD: Dr. Drew, look, we were born and raised in California, where we need to get a license and a permit and talk to like seven
different adjudicating boards just to have a party in our own home and play loud music.
How is it that time after time, you seemingly on this show can trot out just an endless stream of people who kill their children and you don`t
need to check with anybody to have babies. It breaks my heart --
PINSKY: Allegedly, Mike, allegedly killed her children. We talk about the cases that possibly people have done these horrible things.
CATHERWOOD: Either way, let`s just -- it breaks my heart. I have personal friends that are trying to adopt a child. They have to be -- they
have to be run through the ringer. These are passionate people that really want to take care of a child. And yet any yokel with no teeth can just pop
out as many kids as she wants, then she`s hashtag salt mom.
Can she be hashtag dumb bitch mom? Is that too much to ask?
PINSKY: Mike, if she`s guilty of these things. We don`t know.
CATHERWOOD: Even if she`s not --
PINSKY: The whole story is weird to me.
CATHERWOOD: Either way separating her child from the father, who -- she never even --- the guy, they weren`t even Facebook friends, let alone
actual acquaintances. She just goes around the country, with no stability for this poor child. It`s insane!
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: Red flags after red flags. Dr. Drew, come on. There were so much information that the authorities could have done something with and
they still dropped the ball. They knew there were issues there and they just didn`t care.
PINSKY: OK. These guys -- Sam, somehow this story has our panel exorcised. They`re completely beside of something.
You, Sam, are going to tell me more about that dad and some of the information about where he`s been and what he`s been thinking in all this.
I got to tell you, Vanessa, I understand, I`m sympathetic to what you`re saying here, but there`s something strange where the interaction. I
was talking to Erica America about this, and I`ll discuss it again with her on the next break, what would have been like to interact with this woman?
What was the quality, what would have been weird and strange about her? And, by the way, to create a situation that raises a child`s sodium level,
to the point where they get brain swelling, that is not an easy thing to do. You got to wonder if there were some medical stuff that clouded the
situation.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew!
PINSKY: We`ve got to go, guys.
Next up, behavior bureau. What do they think?
And later, more private exposed photos, shall we say, hijacked, put online for the public to see. Why is this happening? Who`s doing this?
We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Medical records indicate the child was diagnosed with elevated sodium levels prior to his first birthday. These reports
also indicated there was a concerned for the mother`s emotional stability and it was presumed she suffered from postpartum depression and Munchausen
syndrome by proxy. On January 14, 2009, the mother verbalized that she wanted to harm the child and was referred to medical social services on
February 9 for interpersonal conflict, stress and dysfunction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam.
We`re discussing the new revelations about the so-called salt mom story. Let`s bring in our behavior bureau. Leeann Tweeden, social
commentator, host of "The Tomboys" podcast on Blog Talk Radio, Erica America, psychotherapist, TV host, and Judy Ho, clinical psychologist,
professor at Pepperdine University.
All right, Judy, you heard everyone, Vanessa particularly protesting that everyone should have seen this coming and the child was just 1. If
you`ve never been in the seat of trying to figure out a case, I can see how in retrospect it looked obvious. Why do you think it wasn`t flagged
earlier?
JUDY HO, PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY: There are so many reasons, Dr. Drew. First of all, she was going from hospital to hospital. So, there were
various hospitals involved in this case. Also, most of the times the practitioners switch around, so whoever was seeing her, even at the same
hospital could have been different.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: Many of these hospitals are training hospitals, so there may have been (INAUDIBLE) seeing her, residents seeing her. And they did take some
steps, Dr. Drew. They did refer to Child Protective Services. They did refer to social services. Then, Child Protective Services went to follow-
up and determined it was OK for her to keep her custody for the time being and just to keep watching her.
So, everybody tried to do what they could, but it`s very hard, Dr. Drew, as you mentioned to really make sense of the situation when you`re
not consistent in that person`s life.
PINSKY: And especially when you`re a physician, you`re trying to understand the biology, you may not really know the flags of a proxy
Munchausen. And there was a really important tweet that came up alongside of Judy there. It said, you know, make the point again that if you see
something or think someone is harming a child, say something. It`s more of the see something, say something.
So what if you said too much, there it is -- "Please make a point to say that people need to come forward if they think a child is in danger in
any way." Erica, we were discussing the same thing, there`s something just weird about it that`s hard to put our hands around tonight. But you can
imagine what it would have been like to try to understand that case.
ERICA AMERICA, TV HOST: Yes. I mean, Munchausen by proxy is definitely a unique, you know, mental disorder. It`s counterintuitive for
what a parent is supposed to do with a child. But what I really do think the ball was dropped here, because the word Munchausen by proxy was drought
up within the first year of this boy`s life, and as well as the fact that she expressed she wanted to harm the child.
So, the fact that it got to CPS, I think the ball was dropped there. It should have been followed up. It didn`t matter where she went. They
should have found out what was going on with that child, so it didn`t get to the point where she literally killed him in the hospital, despite
ongoing, very bizarre medical things that were going on with him that didn`t make sense.
So, I really think the ball was dropped on this. I think she had a mental disorder.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I agree with you, Erica. That`s where the part we`re trying to get our hands around. And again, we`re alleging, we`re trying to
understand, but it`s something hard to understand about this. I`m glad you guys, the producers, put up what Munchausen by proxy is. We`re discussing
this so everybody knows what it is.
Basically, I think people know of Munchausen, as people think they have all kinds of conditions, or something called croquette (ph) syndrome,
Munchausen is where they get surgeries hand over fist. But this is where mothers, and they act it out on the child, they lie about the symptoms,
alter medical test, they can even induce symptoms and they almost kind of don`t know they`re doing it.
It`s a very strange case. I don`t know how much people are aware of when they`re engaged in it.
And, Sam, there`s more to more about the biological father now, isn`t it?
SCHACHER: Yes, it`s a really sad story, Dr. Drew. So, the man who has come forward claiming to be the boy`s biological father, he says he
just learned about his son`s failing health and death through a friend. So, he actually shared a statement on her -- the mother`s Facebook page,
also shared it on his own page.
It reads, quote, "This is my other son, Garnett, and he`s 5 years old. I never get to see him because his mom moved to New York. Well, Friday, he
had some severe seizure and is now brain dead and on life support. Even though I don`t get to see him, I feel like he`s been with me this whole
time. I`m not going to lie, I cried for hours when I found this out and it will continue to hurt until the day I die."
PINSKY: There`s something interesting in what he just said. He`s alleging or he`s understanding that the persistent seizure caused the brain
swelling, not the brain swelling caused the seizure.
So, who knows what is going on? Or what the doctor were thinking in real time as this was going on, regardless of what it is.
Leeann, I know you`re always very gentle with parents that misbehave. So, your thoughts?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, I mean, as a new parent of a 1-year-old myself, it just kills me. I was talking to
my husband Chris about this the other night, we look at our child and I just say, I don`t know how somebody could hurt their own flesh and blood.
The worst thing I want to do my child is eat him because he`s so delicious, you know? So, when I see things like, it breaks my heart.
But for me, Dr. Drew, you know I`m a libertarian, so I`m about self- responsibility. But this woman needs to take her -- her reproductive rights need to be taken away. I`m not a doctor. I don`t know if she can
be cured from this disease, but she does not have any right in the future to have another child.
PINSKY: I love the libertarian posture that includes people`s rights to have children. I understand, I get it.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: She should not have another child.
PINSKY: Well, it doesn`t appear so, not without a lot of treatment.
Sam, you know, I -- we`ve been reporting on this for a while. It`s hard to, as Leeann said, children are so precious and so delicious and to
have some acting out their horrible problems through the child --
SCHACHER: It makes your stomach turn. I`m sorry, I`m with Vanessa 100 percent. I do think that the ball was dropped. And I`m not saying the
hospital, because they did alert authorities, they did alert CPS. But we`re talking about a number of different hospitals, Dr. Drew, that saw
these red flags, reported these red flags. I`m sorry, somebody should have done their due diligence.
TWEEDEN: What about her sister? She used to live with her sister. Where was that girl?
PINSKY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: That too. There`s a number of her (INAUDIBLE) the neighbor that went into the house? Thank God that neighbor did tell authorities
that she asked the neighbor to get rid of the salt packs. I mean, Dr. Drew, isn`t this enough evidence for you to believe that or do you think
it`s just one big coincidence? I mean, come on.
PINSKY: No, no, not a big coincidence. And these are all allegations, these are alleged. And it just doesn`t all fit together, it
doesn`t all make sense.
And I think what Erica was saying is what the part, the missing piece for those of us that are clinicians, how do you tie this together? What
was going on with her? And you heard postpartum depression raised in one state there. You know, early in that first year. I think it might have
looked like post-partum depression, but been much more.
People can look weird during a post-partum depression. It might be something chronic. And there was something that -- more to be told, all
I`m saying.
Thank you, guys.
Next, new intimate celebrity photos released online. Who, why, what are they? What`s going on?
And later, you`ve got to hear about this, the college survey. Some say a survey gone way wrong. I`ve got my own thoughts. Clemson University
asking its students details about their sex life. I`ll explain after this.
(COMMERICAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED EFMALE: Another round of private photos of female celebrities have leaked online. Singer Rihanna and Kim Kardashian are two
of the latest stars to have nude photos stolen and posted online.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Several reports say nude pictures of them, along with pictures of Vanessa Hudgens, Mary Kate Olson, Hayden Panettiere and
Gabriel Union have popped up Reddit over the weekend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This comes just three weeks after hackers leaked intimate photos of other female celebrities, including Jennifer Lawrence,
the actress.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: You almost have to assume that when you take pictures like this, they`re going to be leaked.
SCHACHER: I feel very strongly about this. It`s not their choice to distribute these photos for the masses to look at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Loni and Mike.
It`s happened again, photo hacked, posted online.
But, Vanessa, it`s Kim Kardashian. Are you OK with that?
BARNETT: I mean, we`ve seen her naked already. Like at this point, what`s the big deal? We`ve seen a sex tape. We`ve seen her in "Playboy",
that last "GQ" spread was kind of over the top racy.
Look, it shouldn`t happen, it`s not right, but I`ve done seen Kim and Rihanna`s breast more than my own. I have a hard time being like, woo is
them, it`s so sad. Girl bah, I`ve seen it already.
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: Sam, I`ll let you react in a second. But I saw Loni at first getting upset, then laughing. What do you say?
COOMBS: I love your comment, right. She`s seen their breasts more than she`s seen her own.
I mean, it`s kind of true. I feel bad that their private pictures were hacked.
But come on, people, open your eyes and realize there`s no such thing as complete security in the cyber world. So, if you`re going to take those
pictures, that`s your right, go ahead and take them. But know that you might not be able to control who else sees them and they might be out there
for everyone to see.
So, you know, we`re not stupid here. We are growing up on the Internet. It`s time to recognize, you cannot protect those photos.
PINSKY: Some of the actresses confirmed that the photos are authentic. But, Sam, you last time we talked about this, had a very strong
reaction. It was mostly the invasiveness of this.
SCHACHER: Yes. I mean, we`ve lost our expectation of privacy to begin with. I hate the whole idea of victim blaming. Listen, these people
have every right to post these pictures, distribute these pictures any which way form they want to. Just because you posted scandalous photos in
the past doesn`t mean some Joe Schmoe pervert hacker dude has the right to have a free for all with your photos.
And by saying that, you`re perpetuating that crime and displacing the blame from the criminal.
COOMBS: No, I`m not.
SCHACHER: I`m not talking to you, Loni. Loni, I`m talking to Vanessa. She`s the one --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on, whoa! Whoa!
Loni is the attorney. I want to hear from her first.
COOMBS: It is illegal. The laws are on the books, but it takes time to catch these people. And they can`t protect against it. It`s always
going to be afterwards.
CATHERWOOD: Loni, you are --
PINSKY: Mike, hold on. I`m going to get to you. This segment was created for you.
I don`t want to get to you too quick because I`m afraid of what you`re going to say. But, Vanessa, you get to respond.
BARNETT: Look, I agree with one part of that. Yes, this the invasive, it`s against the law, but let`s take some self-responsibility.
Turn off your freaking Cloud. You don`t need the Cloud. You don`t even understand the Cloud.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So, Vanessa, you`re saying the celebrities themselves have a significant role in this happening, that if they were really that concerned
-- Sam, without you having too strong a reaction, they should have taken more precautions. That they really didn`t want to intruded on, right?
BARNETT: Some precaution. We`ve seen this happen before. I`m just saying, don`t be so arrogant to think it won`t happen to you.
PINSKY: Mike, Mike, you and I have a ton to talk about. First of all, Sam seems very upset.
SCHACHER: I`m OK over here. I`m going to bite the tongue for a little bit.
PINSKY: OK. But, Mike, yes.
CATHERWOOD: I would like to see, look, Loni, you brought up the point that, you know, it takes a lot of time for them to kind of formulate the
protection and catch these people who perpetuated this crime. But at the same time, you know, it takes a lot of time and effort for them to enact
that crime to begin with. It`s not very easy to hack someone`s private account.
And especially, Vanessa, to you, the actual peel responsible for this crime, at least for the first set of leaked photos, have come out to say,
even though they haven`t come forward to take credit for it, they`ve come out to say that the Cloud had nothing to do with it. They were able to
hack their phone.
So, look, my point is this -- I am sorry that this happened to these young ladies. I`m more than happy to look at the pictures and shed a
couple of tears and other fluids --
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
CATHERWOOD: -- in honor of these pictures. But if this was like their private banking information and someone hacked into it and stole
money from them, not one person would be saying you should be more responsible with your money. These girls have every right to send sexy
pictures to their boyfriends, taking pictures of themselves to analyze their bodies and look -- this is their phone and their camera, and they
have every right to do what they want to do with that.
SCHACHER: #teammike.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: But when Target had that mass hacking scam that people were getting things stolen all the time, people that -- it didn`t happen to,
people that it did happen to, took extra precaution. They said, look, this is a real issue. This is something you have to deal with nowadays.
PINSKY: OK, OK, hold on. Mike, back to you. I`m hearing there are male celebrities who are worried they`re next.
Then, I thought, male celebrities are next? Wait, wait, what male celebrities are taking selfies like that? Men take body parts and no one
can tell who they are.
So, they`re not as prone to do -- why are women doing this with a selfie all the time? Maybe this is something --
CATHERWOOD: More women should do this. If there`s any bright side to this whole issue, Dr. Drew, to this whole leak, is that normal run of the
mill women need to realize that they should take sexy pictures and send them to their boyfriends and husbands, because even supermodels and
Jennifer Lawrence and Kate Upton, they take pictures of their vaginas and send them to their boyfriends when they`re on the road.
So, don`t think if you`re a frumpy housewife you cannot get away with sending me a selfie. You have every right to. My wife, she sends me
beautiful -- Dr. Drew, I`m talking about, sometimes she puts on costumes, she dresses up like Napoleon, because that`s what I`m into. Sometimes
she`s a cowgirl. You know what I`m saying girls, don`t think that --
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: Look, don`t think that your body is just your own. Sometimes when you engage into a relationship, like a marriage or a long-
term relationship, it belongs to your man, as well. That is all I am saying.
(LAUGHING)
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Different discussion for a different day.
PINSKY: Come on back, Mike. Come on back, buddy. You were going somewhere --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I hope that you turned off your phone, Mike or yours Dr. Drew, because of the picture that Mike has
sent in.
DR. PINSKY: I know. Believe me, I live in fear of that.
SCHACHER: Yes. Me too.
DR. PINSKY: If people want to hack stuff, hack what Mike sends Sam and I.
CATHERWOOD: Do you know what Sam tries to do with her husband but she is not able to do because of biology?
DR. PINSKY: Mike. Mike.
SCHACHER: Mike. Mike.
DR. PINSKY: Mike. Mike. Mike. Stop. Stop. Stop. Turn his Mike off, quick.
SCHACHER: Thank you. Oh, my God. We are on national television. Wow.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. I know.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: I cannot take it.
DR. PINSKY: Look at this. I love it. He is talking, but his Mike is off. Thank you, Dave. Dave, well done.
SCHACHER: Oh my God.
DR. PINSKY: This is good. But, remind you I can do this to any of you.
SCHACHER: OK.
DR. PINSKY: Next up, stars are not the only ones affected. We will talk about another case that is rather disturbing. It is being called
revenge porn. And, later, uproar at a college campus. A student asked about specific elements in their sex lives by their school when they are
freshman as they get there. We will explain. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Celebrities are firing back after a slew of nude photos of Jennifer Lawrence and other celebrities appeared
online. The photos were leaked on a website 4Chan and were allegedly obtained through a massive online hack. A publicist for Lawrence confirmed
the photos authenticity and released a statement saying, the hack was, quote, "A flagrant violation of privacy."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EVY POUMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You also have to take responsibility and take precautions to protect yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: But, as momma always told me, take a nude picture of yourself, give it to someone else, and you lose control of
your own body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DR. PINSKY: Back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau, Leeann, Erica and Judy. Nude celebrity photo leaks targeting A-listers like Jennifer
Lawrence was just three weeks ago. The latest leak reportedly featured x- rated so-called photos of Rihanna and Kim Kardashian. Leanne, what do you think? Where do you come in on this? Should women just not be taking
pictures of themselves or realize that they do someone might get into it?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that is the case, Dr. Drew. Any time you upload anything to your mobile device or like a
home computer, where it is possible for people to hack you from the outside, you are going to take that risk.
To me, I say Polaroids should come back into business. If you are going to take pictures of your man, you got to take it on a Polaroid camera
where you have one copy of it and it stays there or you do it the old fashion way and you use your memory.
DR. PINSKY: Leeann. Leeann, how do you do a Polaroid? Selfie to a Polaroid? How does that work back to the old days?
TWEEDEN: You know, I guess you will have to figure it out, but if you do not want it all over the internet --
DR. PINSKY: And, by the way, I want all four of you to thank me for not putting you on a panel with Mike Catherwood.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
DR. PINSKY: Sam, I apologize. All right. So, I will go with the score across the panel. Erica, your thought.
ERICA AMERICA, T.V. HOST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. So, I think no one should be blaming these celebrities at all. I completely agree with
Sam. I think it is an absolute invasion of privacy.
I have never looked at one of these photos, even though I am fan of these women very much. I feel like it is the same thing as breaking into
the person`s house, stealing their most prized possessions, jewellery, photos. It is the same thing.
Not only should the hackers be, you know, prosecuted but the people who put them online and the people -- not necessarily, people who look at
them, but you just should not do that.
SCHACHER: Yes.
AMERICA: It is not the right thing. I try to put myself in the person`s shoes. If someone took pictures of me that were private, would I
want everyone just looking at it? That is what I did not get with Mike. I love Mike, but he was saying, women should do it. Take the pictures, but I
am going to look at it and I am going to look at it at the same time.
DR. PINSKY: Right
SCHACHER: Right.
AMERICA: So, I do not think that we should be doing that.
DR. PINSKY: And, Judy, you are welcome to give your opinion too. But, you get what those getting at here with how it seems like women are
more prone to taking these full-body pictures that men do not some as interested --
TWEEDEN: With their face.
DR. PINSKY: With their face too, right. And, men will send like body parts, but that is it.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
DR. PINSKY: It is just an interesting observation about the differences on how the sexes seem to be for whatever reason relating to
these images.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. And, actually, it goes along with some of the research we know about male and
female brains, because male brains are very good at focus on single objects and focusing on details. And, women are better at diverse tasks and
looking on the big picture.
DR. PINSKY: Holistic.
HO: Absolutely.
DR. PINSKY: Holistic. That is right.
HO: Something to that. But, I would like to make a point for getting the Polaroid back, just like Leeann said. Here are the three big reasons.
One --
DR. PINSKY: Of the brain.
SCHACHER: I broke it.
HO: Thank you for the brain.
DR. PINSKY: What did you do with the brain? Wait a minute. What did you do to the brain?
SCHACHER: I held it up and it fell apart. Sorry.
DR. PINSKY: No kidding. It is like you completely maimed that.
HO: It is a broken brain.
DR. PINSKY: Oh my God. There is a whole court. The lobe is missing. All right, go ahead, Judy. I am sorry.
SCHACHER: I am sorry, Judy.
HO: No. There are no worries. Anything that involves the brain, I love it.
SCHACHER: OK.
HO: So, number 1, immediate gratification. It is just like the cameras. If we do Polaroids, you can get the picture right away. Number
2, it is retro-style imaging. We get apps to make our pictures look like that. And, number 3, the reason why we are discussing this, privacy. Once
you take a picture with a Polaroid, you never have any evidence that you ever took it. So, if you want to take pictures for your loved ones, go for
it.
DR. PINSKY: Fine. Maybe there is a new Polaroid app that they can come up with. All right, let us --
SCHACHER: Someone will hack that too, watch.
HO: Yes, exactly.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. I mean it is like --
SCHACHER: There is no privacy anymore.
DR. PINSKY: Well, this is a bigger topic, for sure. This is just a little tiny example of that. But, there is another story here, making
headlines, "Revenge Porn." This is in the UK. A 22-year-old man reportedly sent an intimate photo of his ex-girlfriend to his mother,
right? Sam, how did that happen?
SCHACHER: OK. So, I have the details right here. According to this report, Dr. Drew, Hannah Davison was reportedly dating Christopher Todd for
over a year. Now, allegedly, she caught him in bed with another woman and that is why they broke up.
DR. PINSKY: Whoops.
SCHACHER: Exactly. So, reports say that every time Christopher got drunk, he would text Hannah. And, one night Hannah left her phone at home.
Christopher could not get a hold of her. So, he allegedly started texting the mother saying that Hannah, quote, "Was spreading sexually transmitted
diseases. He even went so far as to post a really intimate photo of Hannah to the mother, while it was the dad that was on the receiving --
DR. PINSKY: The dad got it. That is awesome.
SCHACHER: -- that got a hold of the messages and the photos. The poor mother then learned about it too. They did alert the authorities.
They did file a formal complaint with police. And, get this, Christopher was given a suspended sentence. I have no idea what that means, sending a
communication of an indecent message.
DR. PINSKY: Well, Judy, I have been advocating for dads to put cyanide in the back of their cheeks, they can chomp down if ever necessary.
This would have been another one of those circumstances. But, the fact is, you know, what I think this is symptomatic of it -- how serious is this --
it is psycho pathology. The guy is drinking. The guy is angry. We are seeing more of human behaviour in the electronic media.
HO: Absolutely. And, it is so much easier for us now to take it out in those ways and be impulsive with electronic media. And, so, I am not
surprised at all that alcohol was involved, that this person has a substance abuse problem and may be other psychological problems.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
HO: But, it makes it to much easier for us to act out because we have that access.
DR. PINSKY: The guy who did the cheating, allegedly now the drinker, now perpetrating -- chaos, chaos.
TWEEDEN: Well, the girlfriend actually said that she noticed -- they were not together a lot during that year, because they were in school.
But, she said when he would drink she would notice that she would change and turn into a different person. So, she had these red flags, she just
did not listen to herself.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Right. You have got to pay attention. Listen, people need a simple life and they do not need to have excess. If
you have a history of alcoholism in your family make note. If you start having consequences from your relationship with alcohol.
TWEEDEN: Make no mistakes. The guy is a D-bag for sending it to her parents.
DR. PINSKY: Well, that is another thing we are seeing it. But, next up, and this also pertains to alcohol. You will see what I mean after I
get into the story. A college-make students take a survey in which they are asked things like, how many times they have had sex? How many
partners? We will tell you all this together for you, after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI KERNS, FRESHMAN STUDENT AT CLEMSON UNIVERSITY: It definitely made you feel kind of awkward that they were asking this question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EMILY PACE, WSPA, 7 ON YOUR SIDE, HOST: The online course is part of a Title IX training module to help prevent sexual harassment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERNS: It would ask us how many times like we had participated in like drugs, alcohol, sex?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PACE: New students were required to complete the interactive survey before classes started back in August. But, Clemson has now suspended the
program after complaints from students calling it "A sex survey."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON FINNING, CLEMSON ASSOCIATE VICE PRESIDENT OF STUDENT AFFAIRS: No, it is not a sex survey. This is an online training module, very much
focused on addressing issues of sexual harassment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Leeann, Vanessa and Mike. This is our most tweeted about story of the night. A sex survey, so-called by a
freshman at Clemson University. The school has suspended this mandatory participation.
The intent was to inform and educate, but some of the sample questions seemed to go too far. For instance very simply, "How many times have you
had sex (including oral) in the last three months?" "And, how many different people have you had sex (including oral) in the last three
months?" Leeann, what do you think?
TWEEDEN: I mean Dr. Drew, I understand sort of their need to try to do something about the problem with sexual stuff that is happening on
campus and you know schools are being involved --
DR. PINSKY: Abut what? What sexual what? I mean remember we did the story about the girl in Columbia with the mattress. That things happen on
campuses that sort of go, "Oh well. Kids will be kids."
TWEEDEN: Right.
DR. PINSKY: But, these are really serious health problems.
SCHACHER: Right.
TWEEDEN: Yes. It is a very serious issue, but I think they went about it all wrong, because really what does asking a student if they are
having sex and how many times they have sex and if it is oral, what does that have to do with trying to prevent sexual assault?
This has nothing to do with invading their privacy, making students feel uncomfortable. How about we start with things that parents should
have started with, respecting other people. Maybe if you want to go a step farther.
And, I am not blaming victims, but maybe trying to say, "Hey, be more aware. If you are going to a party, try to not get blacked out drunk, so
may be you are not going to put yourself in that situation." But, asking them their sexual questions has nothing to do with helping them in their
sex survey.
DR. PINSKY: All right.
SCHACHER: Yes.
TWEEDEN: That has nothing to do with anything.
DR. PINSKY: OK. But, Sam, I heard you saying yes when I was saying this is a serious health issue.
SCHACHER: Well, yes. It is definitely serious health issues. I mean sexual assault and sexual violence is pervasive all over college campuses
so as rape culture. So, I do like the idea that they are trying to --
DR. PINSKY: Do something. They are trying to do something.
SCHACHER: -- gain -- but, I agree with Leeann. No. Dr. Drew. I agree with Leeann. Why not have education about what constitutes consent.
Why not have -- make it not mandatory. I mean that is so --
DR. PINSKY: But, you know what, though? The school colleges have been trying to educate about that kind of thing for the last decade. But
Mike, they are trying to collect some data now, so they understand what they are working with, at least. Maybe they can change things objectively
to have a data what they started with.
CATHERWOOD. Listen. Dr. Drew, no one is more of a supporter of like a scientific method applying that to social issues. I hear you. But, how
does knowing the amount of someone`s sexual activity and the amount of partners they have, how does that in any way predict whether or not they
are going to engage in sexual depravity or sometimes sexual --
DR. PINSKY: Well --
CATHERWOOD: -- because, Dr. Drew, I mean, frankly, I know at least from an anecdotal sense, the guys that I know that have the most sexual
experiences were least likely to enact some type of sexual assault on people.
DR. PINSKY: But, if this was a health survey, they were also -- look at yourself, man, they could have picked -- you know, found -- I am not
saying that you are a bad student, but they could have helped you from a health standpoint.
CATHERWOOD: Yes. But, I mean I would still be filling that thing out if I had to take it back in 1998 when I was going in college. But, I am
also an extreme example. I feel like this is just another way of kind of ensconcing shame and ridicule about sex.
TWEEDEN: Right. Bottom line every college knows that kids are having sex and they know they are drinking and they are probably doing some drugs.
That is a fact.
DR. PINSKY: But, Vanessa, every single adverse outcome you want to measure with kids. If they measured all these things, what they would have
found, they asked some appropriate questions along with all the sex question, which is such as "How often do you use alcohol? How often do you
use drugs recreationally?" You know, and identifying scenarios that could be sexually coercive. So, they were, again, trying to measure their
understanding of these things. And, the fact is and every adverse outcome you could measure you find alcohol.
BARNETT: Right.
DR. PINSKY: So, it is important for them to make that point.
CATHERWOOD: Did they ask --
BARNETT: The issue I have, though, is we want to applaud them for doing something to help with, you know, spreading awareness and prevention
of sexual assault. I do not think believe we should be applauding them doing the bare minimum. They phoned it in. This is like a form, like a
form you Google online and you give to people, that module.
They could have really set aside some time and made a test that had questions that were pertinent to the situation, not gynaecological
questions. What does that have to do with anything? They could have really put together a well-coordinated test, so it would really help the
students.
DR. PINSKY: But, you know what? I am not a questionnaire expert. So, I do not --
SCHACHER: You are not?
DR. PINSKY: And, I have not even seen this questionnaire yet. So, I do not know -- No.
SCHACHER: I know. Thank you.
DR. PINSKY: I mean I know how to read the literature, as they pertains these things, but I do not know how to design them. And, if
somebody assumed -- if they did not have experts design the questionnaire, I am back in your guys` camp. We are nearing another milestone on
Instagram. Please check us out @dr.drewhln. We will be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DR. PINSKY: Back with my Sam, Leeann, Vanessa and Mike. Now, we are talking about this online survey that students were required by Clemson
University to complete. In this survey, they were asked about their sexual behaviors in ways that makes people uncomfortable. It makes my panel
uncomfortable. The survey has since been suspended.
But, Vanessa, you know, back to this issue that finally, people seem to be taking note. My alma mater college had a sexual violence issue about
two to three years ago and they have been taking aggressive action. Other school seemed to be a lot slower to getting off the dime here.
I sort of like the idea that Clemson is trying to do something, and that they include alcohol and drugs in the survey as it pertains to the
behaviors. Then they can look at -- they can retake these surveys every year to see if they changed or they can at least have a set of data from
which to work with.
BARNETT: Or they can hire one person to look these surveys over and realize that some of these questions are wildly inappropriate and do not
help the issue at hand. It does not take that much effort, money or time to realize we are getting complaints from the students that this is too
much, this is going is too far. Yes, they should do something, but they should do something that is helping, not hurting these students.
DR. PINSKY: OK. And, Leeann, there is an interesting tweet up along the side of Vanessa there. They should ask the student if they want to
participate in the survey. And, then kids that do not want to participate to be fair would just lie any way I suppose.
TWEEDEN: Sure. I mean surveys are not always truthful, Dr. Drew. I am sure you have had patients that do not always tell you the truth. They
are always going to tell you --
DR. PINSKY: Slow down, my patients are always truthful. No, they always lie.
TWEEDEN: Right. Exactly. And, what is the survey going to do unless -- what is that they are going to do with that you are survey? You say,
they are going to take it every year and then do what? Are they going to apply it somehow? Are they going to do something? The only way that
people listen --
DR. PINSKY: Well, no. No. No. No. It is not the survey. I understand take action, but the survey at least tells them what they have
been doing has been working or not working, you know? It gives them some objective or at least something to work from. Mike.
CATHERWOOD: I thought about this way, Drew. Every single night, do we not take calls from people around college freshman age on Love Line,
particularly women who are so scared and curious about certain sexual questions, right?
DR. PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Now, imagine that 18-year-old girl, she is going to embark on her new -- you know, this new --
DR. PINSKY: New life.
CATHERWOOD: This new life, essentially. Yes. A way in college.
DR. PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: She shows up for a freshman orientation, and then she takes a survey, which then further alienates her even more by hitting her
with these incredibly embarrassing questions.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I know. All right.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
CATHERWOOD: I am just saying from that standpoint -- and, I agree with you that I applaud Clemson for at least trying.
DR. PINSKY: All right.
CATHERWOOD: But, in some weird way, I think this only furthers the problem.
DR. PINSKY: OK. Mike, I am going to bring up a topic now that I know is near and dear to your heart with just a minute or so left --
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
DR. PINSKY: And, I really want to make sure I have the chance to say this. And, Sam, I do not know if you are a Stern fan --
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. PINSKY: But, I have done Howard Stern show a number of times. I think it is one of the most brilliant radio productions of all time.
SCHACHER: Agree.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. I could gush about. But, many of you are distressed about the passing of Eric the actor. He was a regular on Howard
Stern`s radio program. Sam, Mike and I are particularly saddened.
SCHACHER: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
DR. PINSKY: I mean he was part of the game there. He was 39 years old. Howard posted this picture on Twitter with a caption, "I loved Eric.
I truly loved him." And, you know, the kinds of musculoskeletal disability that he had, and the way he talked about his cardiac problems, I could tell
this was I coming soon.
I have been worried about whether I would see him get so upset that something could be triggered. He had cardiac arrhythmias. I have not
heard the details yet about what finally happened, but this is how people with those sorts of cardiopulmonary problems pass.
CATHERWOOD: No one towed the line with the love-hate relationship, not only with the audience, but with Howard himself. No one did it better
than Eric the actor.
DR. PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: He brought so much joy to millions of people, myself included. I really love that guy. Rest in peace.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. PINSKY: Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Bye for now, up in heaven.
SCHACHER: Absolutely.
DR. PINSKY: Sam, last though. 5 seconds.
SCHACHER: No. I think the saddest part, you were not the only person that saw this coming. It is really sad.
DR. PINSKY: Yes. OK, everybody. "Forensic Files" is up next. Stay tuned. It starts immediately.
END
