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Don Lemon Tonight

Attack on ISIS; Heightened Terrorism Threat in the U.S.; Strikes Targets Group with Terror Plans

Aired September 23, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with you, Don. I'm Alisyn.

We do have breaking news tonight, law enforcement on heightened alert for lone wolf attacks in the United States after airstrikes over Syria. Learning of details to put undetectable bombs on planes, possibly using a toothpaste tube or clothing dipped in explosives. So how imminent was an attack look that from the group Khorasan.?

LEMON: Certainly very concerning.

Plus, America at war, bombs raining out of the skies over Syria as U.S. fighter jets along with a coalition of Arab nations strike ISIS targets. But it is not just ISIS -- why this country is attack another group of terrorists you never heard of until now. Will airstrikes make us safer or put us in even danger on the home front?

CAMEROTA: All right, we have a busy program to get to. CNN's reporters are around the world. They will have the latest for you, along with our team of military and security experts.

LEMON: We want to begin with our breaking news this hour, terror fears in the homeland.

A senior official tells CNN the Khorasan group was targeted by American forces because it posed an imminent terror threat to the United States. That comes amid concerns about lone wolf attacks.

Let's get the very latest now from CNN's justice correspondent, Pamela Brown.

Pamela, good evening. What can you tell us abut these attacks and the Khorasan?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: We can tell you that this group of al Qaeda operatives in Syria called Khorasan had been on U.S. officials' radar since at least the springtime.

But recent intelligence suggested that the group was in advanced stage of plotting an attack against the West, against Europe or the U.S., by using Western recruits. And so U.S. officials felt like they had to act fast to disrupt the plotting by this group. And we have learned from sources that the group had acquired materials, and that part of -- one of their plots included bringing concealed bombs, having Westerners bring concealed bombs on to an airplane.

That had long been a concern by U.S. officials. And then once they had sort of gotten past the aspirational, the pre-planning phase, and got to a more advanced stages, that's when the level of urgency was really increased. But it is important to note here that in speaking to sources that the group didn't have a specific target, in other words, a place or a building picked out.

So while they were in advanced stages, it wasn't imminent in that regard. But of course they didn't want to give them any more time to become operational.

LEMON: And the question is, Pam, how were they planning on concealing these bombs?

BROWN: One of the ways was concealing them in handheld devices. A cell phone. An iPad. A smartphone. So, creating small enough bombs where they can put it in the cell phone.

You may remember back in July when airport security was increased, that was due to this recent intelligence that they were trying to put these easily concealed bombs into handheld devices. Another way we have learned from sources, one of my colleagues Deborah Feyerick, her source is telling her that they wanted to put them in toothpaste tubes, so hide them in toothpaste tubes and also dipping clothes into explosive residue.

I have been told by sources that they were looking at a variety of options and they were looking at doing a more sophisticated attack, as well as smaller, less sophisticated attacks.

LEMON: Pamela, how concerned is the Department of Homeland Security about lone wolves and sympathizers?

BROWN: That's been an ongoing concern. And, in fact, they sent out a bulletin to law enforcement agencies across the country asking them to stay vigilant, to stay on heightened alert for lone wolf attacks.

The bulletin said that these strikes to disrupt the plotting by Khorasan and ISIS were successful. But, as a result, that could embolden homegrown violent extremists. And that's the big concern here, is that they may retaliate against the homeland in response to these strikes.

So the bulletin is asking law enforcement to scrutinize social media, to look for any changes of behavior or appearances by an individual who may want to retaliate.

LEMON: Pamela Brown at the United Nations. Pamela, thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Even just hearing about their plans for what to do on airplanes is so disturbing.

So let's bring in now CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman. He's in Irbil, Iraq.

Ben, tell us what the reaction has been in Iraq to the airstrikes.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, the reaction in this part of Iraq, in the northern Kurdish region, has been very positive.

Keep in mind that this U.S. campaign against the Islamic State actually began in August with strikes on Islamic State targets. There have been almost 190 U.S. strikes in the northern part of Iraq, around Irbil, and also to south of here, in Anbar province, south of Baghdad as well.

Also over the weekend, there were French airstrikes in Northern Iraq. So, certainly, this is the most pro-American area in this conflict. Keep in mind, for instance, during the entire time U.S. troops were in Iraq, in Northern Iraq, not a single one was killed. So, certainly, we spoke to a senior Iraq, a Kurdish official here in Irbil this evening.

He was very positive about the U.S. strikes in Syria. He said that Kurdish officials would look to see a similar level of intensity and breadth of American strikes on ISIS targets in Iraq as well. What he says they have seen until now is sort of tactical strikes, when, for instance, Kurdish Peshmerga forces are advancing on Islamic State radicals, militants that they will take out a jeep here and a Humvee there, but not the sort of broad strikes that we have seen in Syria so far.

So, by and large, very positive in this part of the country. And, as we heard with Christiane Amanpour's interview with the new Iraqi prime minister, Haider al-Abadi, he is also positive as well about this stepped-up level of attacks on ISIS.

But, of course, in Baghdad, they have other problems with, of course, alienation between Sunni tribes and the government in Baghdad. So it is a somewhat more complicated situation to south of here.

CAMEROTA: All right. We will be talking whether or not those broad strikes are coming to Iraq later with our military panel. Ben Wedeman, thank you.

LEMON: President Barack Obama did not seek support from the U.N. before he ordered airstrikes on ISIS in Syria, a fact that has not gone unnoticed by world leaders at the General Assembly here in New York City.

CAMEROTA: So, joining us a man who has spent the day talking to a lot of those world leaders, Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS."

Fareed, great to see you.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Pleasure.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about how everyone is saying that it's virtually unprecedented, this -- the Arab nation coalition that President Obama has been able to put together. Is it unprecedented? Or in the 1991 Gulf War, did some of these countries help out as well?

ZAKARIA: Well, in the 1991 Gulf campaign, not only did you have Arab nations helping, but you actually had tacit support from the Soviet Union. You had a much broader coalition.

But what is important here and what is noteworthy and really praiseworthy is that the president was able to get core Sunni states, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, to come along, because, remember, the important thing we have to remember is, we are viewing this as terrorist/nonterrorist.

It really is a sectarian conflict. That is, the Sunnis in Iraq and Syria feel dispossessed. That's what gave rise to groups like ISIS. So you have to demonstrate that you have Sunnis on your side. The Sunnis have to be out front. And so getting Saudi Arabia, core Sunni state, getting Jordan very important. The problem is, we don't have the Sunnis of Iraq.

As Ben Wedeman was just saying -- was saying, we keep saying we have got a new government in Iraq. Well, we just have a new prime minister in Iraq. He hasn't appointed any Sunni minister of defense. He hasn't brought back the Sunni generals he fired. That's why we have had 190 airstrikes in Iraq, and there hasn't been that much to show for it in the sense of being able to reclaim ground that ISIS covered.

LEMON: As you are talking, I'm looking at your hand and it's near Iran here. You are interviewing Rouhani tomorrow, right, Iran's president. He said that these airstrikes are illegal. What do you plan to ask him about that?

ZAKARIA: Well, I think what I am going to try and ask him about is, is he willing to be part of the political settlement, is he going to try and help with the politics of this?

Because the point he made about the strikes was actually not as incendiary as it sounds. He said, look, there are only two ways for strikes to be legal. One, the U.N. has to authorize them, or, two, the government of the country involved has to ask for them. Neither condition obtained. The Syrian government didn't ask for these strikes. The U.N. didn't authorize them.

It doesn't have a legal basis. He actually didn't put it -- he didn't say it is illegal. I think the real question is, can you get the Iranians to play politically? Because you know, Don, we are very good at the military stuff. It looks great and we do all this stuff. And it is powerful. And it's actually dazzling.

But the day after, the hour after is the politics on the ground.

LEMON: That leads us to the next thing that we discussed, because we saw the president just a couple weeks ago saying we don't have a plan for ISIS. And it's sort of this guy who didn't really know what was going on. At least, that was the perception. And then we see him today. And he appears to be a different person.

Let's look at him today at the U.N. then we well talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't want to put the cart before the horse. We don't have a strategy yet.

Good morning, everybody. Last night on my orders, America's armed forces began strikes against ISIL targets in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, the question is, has he gotten his swagger back? As you said, this is sort of the day after, right?

ZAKARIA: Well, it is all -- presidents always look presidential when they're ordering military action.

But the question you have to ask is, for it to work, we now -- I hope we understand now, having done it in Iraq, having done it in Libya, you need a poll follow-up of politics. The politics on the ground are really the key, because we are 6,000 miles away.

We're not going to able to be there. So, the question really is, are the local Sunnis going to take the fight and are they going to go with it? Are you going to get an Iraqi army? Remember, the Iraqi army, depending on how you count it, is 250,000 to 600,000, if you will include all security forces and tribes. That's more than enough people if they will take the fight to ISIS.

CAMEROTA: But -- so how involved are we going to be in the political solution, not the military solution here, the political solution to fighting back ISIS?

ZAKARIA: Well, we need to push much harder the Iraqi government. As I said, we do not have a new Iraqi government. We keep saying that. We have a new prime minister. There have been no major concessions made to the Sunnis. They're not back.

There's a bunch of things that General Petraeus did when he was in Iraq. He used to pay off the Sunni tribes. Bribe them. He talked about renting tribes. We need to start renting them again. Or the Iraqi government needs to start doing it. We need to put them into high positions of office. We need to make sure that they don't feel discriminated.

If we're not doing -- this is again where we get back to Iran's potential role. Iran can be helpful because they have a lot of influence with the Iraqi government. I know it sounds all very complicated. But the key is you have got to remember the politics, because you can throw a few bombs, but the ongoing, day-to-day campaign of getting -- you're trying to win the hearts and minds of the people in Iraq and Syria. And 80 people in Syria are Sunni, maybe more. Something like 25

percent or 20 percent in Iraq are Sunni.

The question is where are those people and how can you move the politics to get them? All the bombs in the world won't do that.

CAMEROTA: But it was a diplomatic coup getting the Arab nations to cooperate. So perhaps we now have some leverage and some clout in that world and we will get them, these five Arab nations to again contribute on the politics side?

ZAKARIA: Very, very good point and very important point. I will emphasize though that the country that has influence with the government, the two governments we are talking about, Iraq and Syria, is actually Iran. It's not so much the other -- Saudi Arabia and Jordan. And yet we don't talk very much to Iran.

LEMON: That's your interview tomorrow. That's why it's so important. You are a busy man. Tomorrow, you have the interview. Today, I understand you interviewed Chelsea Clinton. She had this to say. Then we will talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAKARIA: Chelsea, I have to ask you. You are somebody who has, knows a great deal about medicine, about health. Why did you decide you didn't want to know the sex of your baby?

(LAUGHTER)

CHELSEA CLINTON, DAUGHTER OF BILL AND HILLARY CLINTON: There are so few mysteries in life, Fareed, in which any answer is a happy one. And so my husband and I decided that we would enjoy this mystery for the nine-plus months that we were granted. And we are eager to find out what God will have given us.

ZAKARIA: But isn't it strange that the doctors around you know, but you don't know?

CLINTON: No. I think the doctors know lots of things that I don't know.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, such hard-hitting question today, but...

CAMEROTA: On a lighter note.

ZAKARIA: I have got to point out the whole panel was about Ebola, and we talked about Ebola for 27 minutes. This was the last.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, you needed to have that. I saw he was at the Clinton Global Initiative. The president was. And even he joking saying that if Chelsea Clinton went into labor, that she could have his motorcade.

This is kind of our version -- any time a politician's daughter has a child, this is our version of a royal baby, correct?

ZAKARIA: Well, particularly the Clintons, it does feel like that. It feels like there will be a rollout. I don't know. Is there going to be a rollout?

(LAUGHTER)

ZAKARIA: Is there going to be an official photograph?

CAMEROTA: Knowing the Clintons, there will be some sort of big announcement. That's great. We will be on baby watch. We know that it's somewhere in the first week of October.

ZAKARIA: Exactly. Exactly.

CAMEROTA: Fareed, thanks so much for sharing that.

LEMON: Looking forward to Rouhani tomorrow. Thank you very much, Fareed Zakaria.

When we come right back, President Barack OBAMA: a's big speech to the U.N. tomorrow. Can he rally the rest of the world to defeat ISIS?

CAMEROTA: Plus, whatever happened to terror threat level? Remember when we used to have those colors, yellow, orange? What happened to that? Have we all become too complacent?

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Maybe the risks here at home are greater than we realize.

LEMON: And the terrorists you never heard of until now. That is the Khorasan group and their ominous connection to September 11.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: President Obama vowed today to take the fight to the terrorists and keep up airstrikes on ISIS in Syria. Now he is preparing to try to make his case to the rest of the world with a big speech at the U.N. tomorrow.

CNN's senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, joins us with more.

Jim, great to see you. What do we know is the latest?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you.

Well, we got a pretty of a preview of that speech that the president is going to be giving tomorrow earlier today when he met with representatives of the Arab nations that took part in the airstrikes in Syria last night. The president saying to that group that their coalition that they put together is essentially the beginning of what he hopes will be a united front, in response to the threat posed by ISIS and this new terrorist group that a lot Americans are becoming familiar with, Khorasan.

But the also talked about what he hopes to accomplish in this new war on terrorism or if you want to call it war on terrorism 2.0. That is to see Iraq and Syria show some pretty good stride in the years to come. Here's what the president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We are committed to a sovereign Iraq that is able to maintain its territorial integrity and provide for its own security. We are committed to a Syria that is at peace, and is not having the sorts of spillover effects that are burdening its neighbors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, one challenge for the president is he has not exactly laid out a road map for how he will accomplish those things. That's why tomorrow's speech comes in. I'm told by a senior administration official that the president will talk about the general unease the world is feeling right now because of the dangers posed by these two terrorist groups, ISIS and Khorasan.

And at the same time, he will also get into the importance of building this global coalition. He will be working on that a lot in the speech tomorrow.

And then later on in the day, the president will have a big meeting with the new prime minister of Iraq, Haider al-Abadi. And then late in the day, something we have only seen the president do once before and that is chair a meeting at the U.N. Security Council. He did that back in 2009 on the subject of climate change, this time very much on the topic of global terrorism.

The president will be meeting with the U.N. Security Council to talk about a resolution that he wants to see passed by the United Nations that really sets common law enforcement and counterterrorism standards for dealing with the problem of foreign fighters. Alisyn and Don, we have talked about this a lot over the last several weeks, this problem of Americans and Westerners who go to the Middle East and fight alongside ISIS and other terror groups in Iraq and Syria, and then potentially come back to the homeland where they could wreak havoc here at home.

And it's something the president will be dealing with, with the United Nations Security Council members tomorrow.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: OK, Jim, thanks so much for that preview.

LEMON: More Strikes on ISIS could come at any moment now. We're standing by for that.

But I want everyone to listen to what Rear Admiral John Kirby says about the effect of the airstrikes so far.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Early indications we hit what we were aiming at and we greatly disrupted this group's ability to continue the plot and planning that they were doing for attacks either in Europe or here on the homeland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. Just how successful was this first phase of this campaign and what is next?

Joining us to talk about all of that, retired Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, a former Delta Force commander and CEO of TigerSwan, also Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst and former U.S. military attache in Syria.

Great to have you back, gentlemen.

We know a lot more tonight than we did last night as we were watching things unfold in real time. Let's take a look at where the airstrikes were on our map last night.

Colonel Francona, tell us what kind of targets were hit when we look at this map.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: This area over here, west of Aleppo, this was primarily done by Tomahawks. This Tomahawk land attack missiles coming off of the ships in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf.

And they're hitting this area here which is the stronghold of the Khorasan group. This is the group that was involved in some planning of some sort of...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Imminent attack.

FRANCONA: Imminent attack.

The timing of the strikes probably were driven by the fact that these people were in place and we were going to be able to get at them. I think that was the key in selecting last night as the target.

LEMON: But everyone was looking at ISIS, right? And then we wake up and we hear this new, this Khorasan group, which isn't a new group to counterterrorism people. But to the common person, they're like where does this group come from? What is going on here?

JAMES REESE, CEO, TIGERSWAN: But ISIS was there. Just like Rick was saying, that became a trigger. Khorasan became a trigger. They were already there. We had intelligence. It was actionable. Became the trigger. And that just made everything else flow across the field. CAMEROTA: Here is what we know about targets that were hit last

night, ISIS fighters, training compound, ISIS headquarters, command- and-control facilities, storage facilities, that ISIS finance center, ISIS supply trucks and armored vehicles.

That sounds like a lot. How many more nights like last night are we going to have to have?

FRANCONA: As many as you can. Ideally, you take that out until there are no more left to hit. The problem is once you destroy the buildings, then you go after the mobile targets and that's where your complicated targeting comes in, because they're going to move them. We knew they were in Raqqa. But doubt if they're there today.

They're moving them as we speak to get them in -- disperse them as far away as they can.

LEMON: Last night was about Syria. But let's look at the complete airstrikes so far. I believe we have something in both Syria and then also what is happening in Iraq. There is a lot of firepower that going along with all of it, because this is everything. This is -- that we have here. This is Syria and Iraq and the different territories.

But the BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile used last night, the F-16 Fighting Falcon, the F-22A Raptor, the USS Arleigh Burke and the USS Philippine Sea all there. And is that part of the Iraq campaign as well?

ZAKARIA: Yes, it sure is.

All these aircraft, remember, there's not enough assets out there to cover everything. What CENTCOM has to do is phase all of these assets in to the CAOC, which is the combined air operations center. And then they have to work with other coalition forces. The places where like General Mayville at the Pentagon said today, the U.S. munitions, little bit better, little more strategic. They went in.

LEMON: Let's listen to him.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We will share him and then we will talk about it.

ZAKARIA: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. WILLIAM MAYVILLE JR., JOINT STAFF DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS: You are seeing the beginning of a sustained campaign. And strikes like this in the future can be expected.

The operational pace, the tempo of this thing will be dictated by the facts on the ground and what the targets mean in terms of the effect we seek, which is to disrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAKARIA: When he says, what is the -- the intelligence on the ground is going to drive this operation. We're just not going to fly 100 aircraft in there every night and bomb things. If the intelligence supports that, we will bomb it.

CAMEROTA: Isn't that the argument for boots on the ground, that that will help us get intelligence from the ground?

FRANCONA: Different target sets require different targeting strategies.

For what we are looking at right now, you can do this with drones, because primarily we're looking at fixed facilities or we're looking at concentrations of vehicles, bigger targets. You can do that. As Jim says, it drives the targeting. The intelligence drives the targeting. But you are not going to put aircraft up there just to go bomb something because you think there is a target there.

When you move into the phase and when you have to get down there and go after troops, then you need boots on the ground.

ZAKARIA: And what is happening right now is you have what I call the unblinking eye. All right? That's a persistent ISR, an intelligence going on to help with these bombings.

LEMON: The fact is we are looking at a timeline. We don't know.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Right. What does sustained campaign mean?

LEMON: Yes. That means as long as it takes.

ZAKARIA: I think one of the things it means is that we shouldn't look at this as nightly waves, because there were strikes during the day today as well. It's -- it depends on when a target presents itself, not whether it is day or night.

CAMEROTA: All right, gentlemen, thanks very much for your expertise.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Always great to talk to you.

When we come back, warnings of a lone wolf threat on our shores. Who is more dangerous, ISIS or Khorasan? And just how concerned should Americans tonight be?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. A senior U.S. Official tells CNN the Khorasan group was targeted by American forces because of the imminent terror threat it posed to the United States.

CAMEROTA: So let's learn more from Robert McFadden. He's a counterterrorism expert and former NCIS special agent in charge; Fran Townsend, CNN national security analyst, who was homeland security adviser to President George W. Bush; and Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and co-author of "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA." Great to have all of you here.

Bob, let's start with Khorasan. You know, many of us are just learning about this group, but we hear that it is al Qaeda's A-team. What does that mean?

ROBERT MCFADDEN, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: Well, just the term of Khorasan kind of leaked out within the last week, and it came into the public realm. However, there's been consistent reporting now for a number of months and actually even into last year when it was known that al Qaeda core sent senior operatives into Syria. And then, this speculation became some more facts in there that actually it was there to develop and plan transnational operations.

LEMON: But I think that was your term. You were the one that actually termed it the A-team. Why do you -- why do you think it's the A-team?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: These are veteran al Qaeda operatives. The leader of this group, al-Kuwaiti was with bin Laden in the weeks before 9/11. Muhsin al-Fadhli, very, very experienced; have a lot of expertise in putting together terrorist plots.

LEMON: So what does this -- these air strikes do to Khorasan's plans?

CRUICKSHANK: We don't know. We don't know the degree to which these air strikes have disrupted their plans. That will depend on whether they managed to kill the leadership, the bomb makers and some of the western recruits they were trying to recruit into these plans.

CAMEROTA: Fran, one of the scariest things in learning about Khorasan -- we just put up the full screen of some of their characteristics -- is that they seem bent on causing another aviation disaster. That seems to be their focus.

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: That's right. And you know, Paul mentioned Fadhli. When I was in the house, in the job that's now held by Lisa Monaco, who Anderson interviewed earlier, I want to Kuwait. We put -- we tried to put extraordinary pressure on the Kuwaiti government to assist us in getting Fadhli, because he was such a danger.

These guys, as Paul was explaining, they're not only experienced but they have connections directly back to the al Qaeda's core leadership. And so this is a real -- the threat is real. We don't know that the group is very large. Right? But you don't need to be large, if you're in an environment where you have the ability to recruit and train younger operatives and deploy them, you don't have to be.

LEMON: So who's more of a threat, then? Who's more likely to attack America? We've got al Qaeda. We've got ISIS. We have al-Nusra, and we have Khorasan, a group that we haven't really been talking about. Who's more likely here? TOWNSEND: And you haven't mentioned, of course, the lone wolf.

LEMON: Maybe some other group, right?

TOWNSEND: You've had the audio this week where the ISIS spokesman called for a lone wolf attack in the United States, France, and in Canada. And so all of those pose a threat.

The question is why did they say that this was imminent? And yet, when they're pressed on that -- that was the justification for the air strikes. When they're pressed on that, they say, "Well, there was nothing specific and credible that made it imminent."

We're getting a little bit, I think, of a mixed message out of the White House. I suspect the intelligence that they relied upon to do the targeting, the best intelligence, is coming out of our foreign intelligence allies in the region. Saudi Arabia, for one, has had extraordinary insight and sources into al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and these groups. They have very good connections inside Syria. And so I suspect they're helping us.

CAMEROTA: Robert, Don and I were just talking about, remember the threat level colors, obviously, that were instituted during the George W. Bush administration -- yellow, orange? That has gone away. And perhaps because of that or perhaps, or because it's been so much time, the American public doesn't know how -- where we are with this. How worried to be about an attack today.

MCFADDEN: Well, as has been said here, we're in that period now where the facts will come out and the battle damage assessment.

But going by the way this shaped up over the last few weeks and the strikes last night, from my experience, it had to have been based on very sensitive information and intelligence. And apparently, there was a high degree of confidence that the strikes would help disrupt the momentum of this group. So therefore, you really wouldn't expect it to be in the public realm unless there were leaks.

CRUICKSHANK: I think the big worry now is that ISIS will prioritize launching attacks against the west, against the United States. They've not done that yet, but this is a group with very real potential capability, with 1,000 westerners in its ranks, tens of millions of dollars of cash reserves, training camps on a scale last seen in Taliban-run Afghanistan.

If they decide to pull the trigger, as they now may well do because of these strikes in Syria, I think we're entering a very dangerous period.

LEMON: You're talking about ISIS, right?

CRUICKSHANK: I'm talking about ISIS.

LEMON: We've talked to our generals and our lieutenant generals last night, and they said, listen, ISIS -- they don't believe ISIS has the power. ISIS is as powerful as, especially the media is making them out to be. That it is somewhat Astroturf to them. You don't buy that?

CRUICKSHANK: I don't think I agree with that. I think this is a group with very real potential capability to launch terrorist attacks, particularly in Europe; also potentially the United States.

CAMEROTA: But when you say terrorist attacks, do you mean lone wolf attacks? Because those aren't very hard -- I mean, those aren't, obviously, the 9/11-style attack. They are one person with a gun, wreaking havoc.

CRUICKSHANK: There are 1,000 European recruits so far in this group. They have the potential to train them in bomb making, so that they can return to the west and to launch attacks.

Al Qaeda were trying to do that in the years after 9/11. ISIS now has much greater potential to do it if it decides to.

LEMON: At least 1,000, and at least 100 who are from the United States. Some of whom have come back to the United States. But we don't know if they're fighting for ISIS here in the country. That's a real threat. Real threat. And real concern.

Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

TOWNSEND: Our pleasure.

CAMEROTA: All right. Everyone, you're going to stick around. We continue. You're not going anywhere. Don't get up. Stay with us. We're going to take a deeper look at what's known about Khorasan and its ultimate mission. We'll build on everything they just talked about. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Until last week, most Americans had never heard of the Khorasan group. But today President Obama described its members as, quote, "seasoned al Qaeda operatives in Syria." Where have they been hiding up until now?

LEMON: Yes, that's a big question. Back again with us is Robert McFadden, Fran Townsend and Paul Cruickshank.

We'll start with that, Fran, where have they been hiding?

TOWNSEND: Well, these guys have been spread all over the region, frankly. I mean, Al-Fadhli, we were trying to get him turned over to us when he was in Kuwait. They had enormous -- some of them spent some time in Iran when we were unable to get access during the Bush administration.

So these guys were used something as pawns and leverage within the region. They wouldn't give them over to us. But they would use them sort of as leverage with the groups to get the groups not to commit acts of terror inside their own territory. They would use them with the group in order to negotiate to get them release and where they would be able to go to. So now this coming together, I think, is what's a real concern, not

only to the administration but to the intelligence committee.

LEMON: You want to get involved?

CRUICKSHANK: And al Qaeda have been consciously sending operatives, deliberately sending operatives from the Afghan-Pakistan border region to Syria. They realized that that was going to be a safe haven. So they build up their operations there over the last year.

Al-Fadhli is believed to have entered into Syria about a year ago and to have built up the operations of this group, Khorasan, in Idlib province, the west of Aleppo.

CAMEROTA: What do we know about al-Fadhli and his connection to September 11?

MCFADDEN: Well, at that time, and actually, it's remarkable that he was that young at the time, probably late teens around the time of 9/11. Myself, I only know of one other high-value detainee that was that trusted that early on, and he's one of the high-value detainees at Guantanamo right now.

Was involved initially from more of a facilitation and moving money. We know him to have been involved, at least with the money, for the attack on the Lindberg off the coast of Yemen in 2002.

The cat has a lot of lives, because although he was arrested and was on trial in Kuwait, then let go by the Kuwaiti government, he went right back into al Qaeda and at one time thought to be senior A.Q. person in Iran.

LEMON: What kind of information -- obviously, to get information from someone like him would be extremely desirable?

MCFADDEN: That's an understatement.

LEMON: Yes.

MCFADDEN: Yes, to have somebody with that kind of placement and access, as we say, would be extraordinary.

But the most important thing though is, as we mentioned, is just disrupting the forward progress. Likely, it's an al Qaeda, part of al Qaeda core. This would have been, when we talk about the imminent threat, more than likely at the point where an operative or operatives would go forward to where they would do the targeting, whether Europe or North America.

LEMON: Can we get back -- can we get back to that threat thing? Because we asked you about it. But you didn't really. You sort of, you know, went on to another thing. That was good how you did that.

But Fran, you were -- Fran, you were involved in that. And I remember at the time everyone, there was such consternation about, you know...

TOWNSEND: The terror threat level.

LEMON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because what is the difference between orange and yellow?

TOWNSEND: No, no. It was the subject of great sort of, you know, the "Daily Show with Jon Stewart," you know, riffs about the color of the day. Remember, you used to walk through the airport, and they would tell you if it was orange or red.

It was -- that was really meant -- initially, it was a way to signal to the public kind of the level of concern. And you know, the British still have a system where they call the threat severe or urgent.

Over time, it really was used as a mechanism inside the federal government and with our state and local partners to quickly and easily tell them what was expected. Because inside the federal government, inside working with the state and locals, that there was -- there were measures associated with each of the colors. So you could announce going to orange, and they knew to take some additional steps.

Over time it was sort of -- it was a parody. Over time, it became far less useful. And so when the new -- when President Obama was elected and Janet Napolitano became DHS secretary, I sat on her advisory panel. And a group of us looked at it and said, "You know what? The country doesn't need this anymore."

CAMEROTA: But let's talk about what the country does need today. I mean, how are viewers who are watching, Americans supposed to be feeling about this imminent threat? I mean, how are people supposed to protect themselves?

TOWNSEND: Well, I do think, if you look at the polling -- I forget what it is now -- like 60 percent of the folks really believe, have real concerns about the threat from ISIS.

CAMEROTA: Of course they do.

TOWNSEND: And they don't quite know what they should do. I mean, the answer is, you know, there's not much at a local level you can do. The one thing I would say to folks, when, especially when it comes to the lone wolf. You're looking for people who are exhibiting aberrant behavior. Something different is going on. Either they've become reclusive; they're behaving differently. This is where campaigns like "See it, say it" that we see here in New York City are very important.

LEMON: I don't usually think about it. I did think about it today before I got on the subway. I did discuss it with the person sitting next to me on the subway. Especially considering what is going on.

TOWNSEND: Sure, that's great.

CAMEROTA; Thanks so much for all of your expertise. Great to see you.

LEMON: Up next, we're going to ask an early opponent of the war in Iraq if air strikes in Syria are a wise move.

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CAMEROTA; I'm sure you know Nicholas Kristof. He's a columnist for "The New York Times." He's been all over the world and was an early opponent of the Iraq war.

LEMON: Him and his wife, Sheryl WuDunn was a "Times" editor and foreign correspondent. They're co-authors of "A Path Appears: Transforming Lives and Creating Opportunities," and they join us now.

Hello to both of you. I'm going to start with you. Four continents, you reported on six. You've traveled more than 150 countries. So what do you make of what's going on in the air strikes here?

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I am -- I mean, I think that, at the end of the day, we had to go ahead and -- and streak Syria. You can't fight ISIS just in Iraq.

But I must say, a number of things have made me nervous. It certainly made me nervous when a senior administration official talked about the long Saudi/Syria border. There's no such border.

And, you know, the whole talk about, defeating ISIS, I think we can genuinely degrade ISIS. And I think we have to. But I think we're setting up incorrect expectations when we talk about air strikes and Raqqah are not going to destroy.

LEMON: Why do you say that?

KRISTOF: You know, Raqqah is -- it's a major city. And you can strike individual places in it. But, even in Iraq, in Iraq we've been able to degrade ISIS positions. But five weeks of air strikes haven't managed to destroy it there. And, you know years of air strikes haven't managed to destroy the Taliban.

I think we can -- curtail ISIS, and I think we should. But we're not going to defeat it in the short term without ground troops any more than we did the Taliban.

CAMEROTA: You're not alone. We've had our military panel talking about that. The air strikes will not be the answer. And many people even say that military might won't be the answer, because it's a mindset. And how do you defeat a mindset with air strikes? Some people believe that you only sort of enflame the mindset with air strikes.

Not that -- not that we shouldn't be doing this, because obviously lots of -- there was a humanitarian crisis happening.

But your whole philosophy and in the book is that there has to be another answer. Sheryl, what is that answer?

SHERYL WUDUNN, CO-AUTHOR: Well, first of all, OK, the military tool kit might be the best one in the short term. But in the long term, you need to educate entire societies. You need to educate men and women and need to spread opportunity so that everybody can play a role in society.

Women tend to be a stabilizing force in these kinds of cultures. If you look at the difference between Pakistan and Bangladesh, Bangladesh educated its people. And it's not so pro- into Jihadism, Pakistan is not.

CAMEROTA: But of course, this is a chicken and an egg argument. Because ISIS won't let women and girls be educated. So, how -- it sounds wonderful. If we could just build schools, that would be the answer. But ISIS won't let that happen. So then what's the answer?

KRISTOF: Well, I mean, in any immediate case right now, so for example, in the case of Syrians, we should certainly be educating people, Syrians who are in refugee camps in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Turkey. And there are a lot of kids in those refugee camps who aren't getting an adequate education.

Look at Yemen. Down the road, Yemen is a possible other Syria. And we can do a lot more in Yemen to -- to work on education, to empower women. Same thing in Afghanistan.

And this is hard. And, you know, there are a lot of toolboxes. We need the military toolbox. We need the education toolbox. We need the diplomatic toolbox. We need the female empowerment toolbox. But I think right now, we have this big huge giant military toolbox and kind of nothing in the others.

LEMON: I hate to hopscotch, but I want to go back now. Can I go back to ISIS? Because...

KRISTOF: And ask every ISIS question for any question?

LEMON: No. I think it's important for you to respond to this, because Christiane Amanpour interviewed the Iraq prime minister. And he said that Iraq paid a very heavy toll because of ISIS advances. Listen and you can respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAIDER AL-ABADI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER: We have warned in the last two years, this is a danger. This is a blood game. It's going to end in a bloodbath if nobody stops it. Nobody were listening. They thought everybody was immune from this danger. And only Iraq and Syria were on the spread of this danger.

But now I think we're happy. Personally, I'm happy that everybody is seeing this danger so that they're going to do something about it. And I hope they do something about it and they don't do it the wrong way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is he sort of saying what you're saying, "I hope they don't do it the wrong way"?

KRISTOF: Yes, and I think a lot of Arab states in the region kind of feel that way. I think it was done very well in the sense that they had Sunni partners. So this isn't just the U.S. against some Sunnis, but it's a coalition.

And indeed, you know, there are some folks who say air strikes can't accomplish anything. Well, actually, Iraq shows air strikes can accomplish something. The Yazidi population, genocide against these Yazidis was halted because of air strikes. But it was not possible to destroy the ISIS component, even in Iraq.

CAMEROTA: So Sheryl, tell us: your book is called "A Path Appears," and what is the path?

WUDUNN: Well, basically, it comes from a quote from Lucien (ph), who was writing about 100 years ago in China. And he said hope is like a path in the countryside. At first there is nothing. As more people walk back and forth, a path appears. It's about solutions for creating change.

And if more people throw resources, their mind share, their talents at it, we'll find solutions. And we do talk about solutions.

CAMEROTA: Where has it worked?

WUDUNN: It is -- oh, there is an enormous amount of evidence-based research that shows that early education really helps spread opportunity. If you capture a 1-year-old, a 2-year-old, a 3-year-old, you really can change their life path. Because their brain is forming very well. And if you actually can get them educated, read them stories, teach them words, they'll be able to really benefit.

LEMON: If you're looking at places like Syria, Iraq, as we look in Iran and these places, I mean, there is so much unrest there. That is hard. It is very difficult to do that.

KRISTOF: But you also have to look at the U.S. And, you know, some of the same ways to address problems in Syria or Yemen, like education, we also need to, direct right here in the U.S. And there are real tradeoffs there.

And the education escalator is broken in this country. We have a real inequality problem here. And how do you address it? I think it's some of the same things we've been talking about here. It's education. It's empowerment. It's early childhood interventions.

CAMEROTA: But of course with limited resources, I mean, somebody would say we need to do that domestically here first.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: We have every reason...

WUDUNN: Well, you know, actually, we have intervened early. At the early childhood education, it's much cheaper than when you do it later on.

KRISTOF: Yes, some of these things really pay for themselves. And, you know, that's again why I think we need a more balanced approach. Domestic versus foreign, and which toolbox we use.

LEMON: The book is called "A Path Appears: Transforming Lives, Creating Opportunity." Nick Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn, thank you very much.

WUDUNN: Thank you.

KRISTOF: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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