Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Syrian Kurdish Fighters Fighting ISIS on Syria-Turkey Border

Aired September 26, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Phil, if you're still there, tell me a little bit more of what you're seeing right now.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, John. You make the point about the Turkish military. They are here patrolling this heavily fortified border. They have checkpoints here, armored vehicles patrols.

What you were hearing was, yes, the crowd cheering as they have been through the afternoon as their Kurdish brothers, as the ethnic Kurdish population stretches across the border between Turkey and Syria. These are largely Turkish Kurds but they are here watching their Kurdish brothers fight ISIS in the distance, and whenever it has looked like the Kurds have been taking the fight directly to ISIS, scoring a hit somewhere close to that ISIS position then, yes, the cheers have very much gone up.

The Turkish military at this stage, it is just watching. We're seeing armored vehicles patrol this border area regularly, particularly through this afternoon. The greatest concern, I think, has been keeping these crowds from the Turkish side from getting too close to the border and on the Kurdish side what we've been hearing for a couple of days now is "Where are these airstrikes?" They have asked directly, they've appealed directly, they've said they are willing to cooperate, willing to provide targeting information to the international coalition so that they believe - because they believe that would be the decisive factor. They believe that they are outnumbered and outgunned by the advancing ISIS forces. They're really appealing for the international coalition to come to their aid. They also make the point they think they've seen an influx of ISIS fighters over the last day or so, and they think they that that could be - that could be because ISIS fighters are being driven from other areas in Syria where there have been coalition air strikes.

So it is complex, but what we are seeing here on the ground, as I say, ISIS fighting in the open going up against some local fighters who have small arms, little else, although they do appear to be operating a mortar this afternoon, not terribly effectively, I'd have to say. But they say that they are fighting as hard as they possibly can to slow down this advance, but they do not belief they will be able to stop it without the assistance of some sort of air power from above. John?

BERMAN: All right. Phil Black, I want to welcome our viewers from around the world as well as here in the United States. What you're looking at right now is a live battle. You're looking at ISIS fighters engaged in a battle right now with forces that are believed to be members of Syrian Kurdish fighters. They've been fighting in several towns around that area, the Kurdish fighters, I believe, have pushed ISIS toward the Turkish border where our Phil Black is standing with several dozen, perhaps hundreds, maybe thousands of refugees, Syrian refugees who have been trying to get into Turkey. They are watching this battle right now, cheering on those who are fighting ISIS. You can see some of the rounds flying across the picture right there. We've heard the gunfire. Those are what we believe to be the ISIS fighters there up on that hill top. Phil, if you're still there, give me a sense of who have the people are right now engaged in this battle with ISIS?

BLACK: Absolutely, John. So, ISIS has been moving into this northern region of Syria over the last week. It is a region that has been controlled largely by the ethnic Kurdish population here who have not played much of a part in the ongoing civil conflict that has been tearing apart Syria for three years, now more than three years now, I should say. So now that ISIS has started to move into this territory, really ISIS' reputation has sent a shockwave of fear through the Kurdish villages and towns in this region.

That is what triggered an enormous refugee exodus into Turkey over the last week. Estimates put it at somewhere close to 200,000 people moving into Turkey in just a few days. Literally picking up whatever they can carry, moving through the dusty landscape and then queueing to move across the border to safety and security and to what we have to say is an uncertain future in refugee camps.

What they have left behind is a small fighting force of Kurdish fighters who say they are armed and prepared to fight very hard to try and slow down this advance and they say they have managed to do that successfully to some degree. But they have been reporting to us each day that ISIS has been making progress. A few more miles each day.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

BLACK: Just take a look up on that ridgeline right now.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

BLACK: What you are seeing is tracer fire moving in to that ridgeline that is currently occupied by ISIS forces.

(CROWD CHANTING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BLACK: And around me the Kurdish crowd is cheering. Take a listen.

(CROWD CHANTING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BLACK: And John, it is getting quite dark here so increasingly difficult to make out the actual figures on the ridgeline itself, but we can see from that tracer fire that they are still receiving incoming fire and it is at that position that our photojournalist Claudia Otto has seen ISIS fighters take casualties, take hits. They've received injuries and they're seeing other fighters carrying their wounded away from that location. This has been the scene through the afternoon. Small arms fire and some heavier artillery as well. Mortars, I mentioned earlier. We haven't seen any of the heavy or heard any of the heavier arms for about an hour or so now, I think. But as you can see from that tracer fire still moving across the skyline, that fighting is still very much going on there, John.

BERMAN: Phil, because it isn't completely clear just by this picture right now, how far away is that from where you are right now. Those fighters we believe to be ISIS fighters standing on that ridge taking that fire. How far away are they from you and from this crowd of refugees who are cheering on those battling ISIS right now?

BLACK: It is an estimate, John, and I'll give it my best. We're on one hilltop. In between us is the border. The border cuts through a valley. That is the opposing hill top from where we are standing. And I think it is a distance of some two or three miles. Perhaps, it is not far. It is not far. And when the light was much better today we could clearly make out the ISIS fighters on that ridgeline as well as their opposing -- the opposing Kurdish fighters on an opposite ridgeline as well. And what we have seen is not just fighters at the top of those ridges, but also in the hills behind them. We've seen their support teams moving in ammunition, vehicles, that sort of thing to support the fighters who are directly engaged in the fight that is taking place between the tops of two hills. Just a narrow valley between them, John.

BERMAN: And as you explain, the people fighting ISIS right now, Syrian Kurdish fighters, but it's just such a short distance from where you are, Phil Black. You're standing on the Turkish side of the border. You say there are Turkish troops in Turkish armored vehicles where you are. Give me a sense of what is keeping these Turkish troops and Turkish forces from engaging in this battle? It just wouldn't take much for them to eliminate these ISIS fighters.

BLACK: Well, it is unclear I guess precisely what their orders are. The rules of engagement for the Turkish military as it stands at the moment, is if they receive any sort of incoming fire on to this side of the border then they are to respond in kind. Now, we have been told by some of the local Turkish people on this hillside that a couple of mortar rounds did, in fact, land on the Turkish side of the border earlier today. We didn't see that. That is what we were told happened but they have also told us that so far Turkey has not responded. It has not returned fire as yet.

So what we are seeing is just Turkish military vehicles patrolling at this border area. There are a number of outposts and points where the Turkish military is really dug in along this border. It is - it is quite heavily fortified, there is no doubt about that. But the Turkish role as it has been through much of this conflict has been to monitor, to assist the refugees in getting over, but it has not gotten involved in the fighting really for the duration of the Syrian civil conflict and we are not seeing that again today. So far it is not getting directly involved. Not supporting those Kurdish Syrian fighters who are trying to rappel ISIS. And I think you take the point earlier, Turkey for all its interest is not a member of this international coalition that is taking direct military action against ISIS. Now, Turkey has a lot of concerns about what is going on here. It has suggested setting up an international buffer zone in Syrian territory. That idea hasn't really got a lot of traction internationally I don't think.

It says it's engaged in continuous talks with the United States about the situation in Turkey and the situation with ISIS in particular, but again, making the point it is not part of this international coalition to this launching direct military action against ISIS. It has not commented specifically why, but there - you can look at a couple of key important factors, I think, here. One is simply its proximity. Turkey effectively as we are showing you now control -- shares a border with ISIS-controlled territory. What this raises are real security concerns for Turkey. Turkey would not be like other members of the international coalition that can fly over, drop their ordnance, return to base while giving orders from countries that are really a great distance from where all of this is happening. Turkey is directly intimately involved in what is taking place here on the border. Its borders are incredibly porous as we've been talking about. Hundreds of thousands of refugees pouring across at a time this week, and it has been a constant flow over the last few years which is why there are now 1.5 million Syrian refugees currently in Turkey really dealing with those refugees and that refugee burden is Turkey's biggest problem in dealing with the crisis in Syria.

But I think if there's a reason why it isn't taking the fight directly to ISIS at this stage it is because that would be to provoke ISIS and Turkey is vulnerable to ISIS retaliation in a way that the other members of this coalition simply are not, John.

BERMAN: Phil Black, I know you're losing light there, it's getting dark where you are. I know you're losing battery power on some of the equipment that we're using there right now. We're going to try to keep you with us as long as we possibly can. What you're looking at, everyone, is a battle raging right now. Those are believed to be ISIS fighters right now. They're on a ridge. Behind them on a different ridge we believe there are some Syrian Kurdish fighters who are pushing these ISIS fighters back toward the Kurdish border where our Phil Black is right now. You just saw a tracer bullet flying across the screen right there. We have heard gunfire. Phil says there have been mortars shot, poorly, I might add. Phil, you've been talking to the refugees on the border, the thousands who've been streaming across from Syria. For several days now into this U.S.-led coalition effort to attack ISIS inside Syria what are the refugees telling you about this effort? Have they seen any appreciable difference since the United States and their Arab allies have started the attacks inside Syria?

BLACK: They haven't seen it in this region, John. And that's something they all talk about. Indeed, when we talk to those Kurdish fighters by phone across the border in Syria as well they mention this also they want to see that sort of air power being deployed here in this region where ISIS is advancing because they make the point if ISIS is under fire in other parts of Syria here they are clearly not just operating openly, not just operating in a way where they are not being interfered from above, they are just - they are advancing. They are making progress. Every day, they are claiming a little more territory despite the efforts of those Kurdish Syrian fighters.

We can hear the gunfire still going as I speak to you now. Small arms fire still being exchanged. And this is a real point for these Syrian Kurds that have been fleeing this fighting, fleeing in fear because the reputation of ISIS is such that they don't want to stick around as ISIS has approached their villages, their towns in this region. And that is why the influx of refugees has remained constant through the week, they say, because ISIS has been claiming more territory day by day, a few miles here, a few miles there visiting more villages. Some of these Syrian Kurds have been holding out, trying to hold out for as long as possible before making the dash for the border with their families, their livestock, whatever belongings they can possibly carry with them. We've seen truly desperate scenes. And we've also spoken to people who are experiencing absolute tremendous grief because they say ISIS has killed their family members in recent days, they have shot them, some say, executed them some say. Others say that their family members were killed by artillery fire.

These refugees, particularly these ones that have been moving over in the last few days, these are the ones that have made the decision at the last possible moment to leave, and so -- their experiences with ISIS have been much more intimate than those that crossed earlier. They have lost people, they have lost loved ones, lost their homes. They have seen the violence firsthand in many cases. And John, as I speak to you now, my - our photojournalist, CNN photojournalist Claudia Otto says that it appears that up on that ridgeline and with very little daylight left it looks like those ISIS fighters are now pulling back down the hill on the other side. It's more difficult now because we're really moving into nighttime here. It's very difficult to make out what is going on there. But Claudia is fairly certain that what she sees, and is seeing right now suggests that those ISIS fighters are retreating from the ridgeline where we have seen them fighting from and seeking shelter and also taking casualties through the afternoon, John.

BERMAN: Well, we have seen, Phil, over the last hour or so very clearly on that ridge up there, which is now covered mostly in darkness these ISIS fighters engaged in a battle with Syrian Kurds. We've seen tracer gunfire. We've heard gunshots, also some mortar fire, also around where our Phil Black is standing on the Turkish side of the border he is surrounded by thousands of refugees from Syria trying to get out of Syria into Turkey. They've been cheering. They've been cheering as this battle has been going on. These Syrian Kurds who are taking on ISIS right now and have forced ISIS to this hilltop, Phil, what kind of assistance are they getting and who exactly is behind this assistance? Are they getting assistance from the Iraqi Kurds? Is it the U.S. that has armed them now directly and if so, with what?

(APPLAUSE)

BLACK: What you are seeing is tracer fire moving into that ridgeline that is currently --

BERMAN: I think we lost Phil Black. Again, Phil is on the Turkish side of the border. What you're looking at right now is file video of just a few moments ago when it was still light out. A battle between ISIS fighters on a hill top there and behind them, on another hilltop, Syrian Kurdish fighters. Every once in a while, you can see tracer bullets going across this green - we heard gunfire, we heard occasional mortar blasts. You also heard, which was remarkable, cheering from Kurdish refugees, Syrian Kurdish refugees, thousands of them who've been trying to get into Turkey. This is so interesting. This was, while we could still see it, a live battle with ISIS fighters there. I'm joined by Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona here in the studio with me. You know, when you look at this small group of ISIS fighters, clearly they're somewhere where they don't want to be. They've been separated from whatever main group they were with. They've been pushed back toward the Syria-Turkey border. Obviously they can't go over that border. The Turks would stop them if they tried that.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right. And this is dramatic footage. And you can see what the ISIS is trying to do. They're trying to take that entire Kurdish - the entire Turkish border. They want to cut them off so they're probably trying to cut behind the lines and go right down the border and cut off any escape route for these people. Obviously they're not being successful, otherwise the cheers we wouldn't have seen that so ISIS probably was not successful in this particular endeavor. But they keep trying as Phil said everyday a few miles more. A few hundred meters more.

BERMAN: A few miles more, a few meters more despite the fact that the United States has led this new effort with its Arab allies to go after ISIS inside Syria.

FRANCONA: And this is where you need boots on the ground because you can't call in air strikes here unless you've got people -- with eyes on the target otherwise you risk killing friendly troops.

BERMAN: Well, you say that, you risk killing friendly troops but this ridge is clearly visible to our eyes right now so explain to the audience why not. Why couldn't a U.S. warplane watching CNN right now -- military leaders say hey, there's a battle going on right now, there is a pocket of ISIS fighters right there, why would that not be an inviting target?

FRANCONA: Ideally, but the military is not going to put iron and steel on target without their own eyes on the ground, either friendly forces or an American team.

BERMAN: Well, fair enough. But what about the Turks? Again, this is a few hundred meters away. Not more than a mile away from the Turkish border. Phil says there are armored Turkish vehicles going back and forth. Heavily armed Turkish, you know, military members right there.

FRANCONA: And the Turks right now are just looking to keep the integrity of that border. At some point the Turks are going to have to get involved in this. Right now, they have got a humanitarian disaster on their hands that they'll have to deal with, but at some point, we expect to see the Turks jump into this.

BERMAN: And explain again why the Turks don't want in. What's the reluctance to get involved as a direct fight with ISIS?

FRANCONA: Well, it's very complicated. Turkish politics come into play in this. They've gotten an Islamist government in Turkey, but not radical Islamist as we see with ISIS. But they have been for a long time supporting many of these units that are fighting in Turkey. A lot of the Islamic forces that are across the border fighting in Syria receive Turkish support. Virtually every person is now fighting in the north there came through Turkey. That border as we see is very open. Although the Turks try and control it. There has to be some Turkish acquiescence to allow these people through.

BERMAN: Colonel, we woke up Tuesday morning with the news that this U.S.-led coalition had started attacking ISIS inside Syria clearly escalating the attacks inside Iraq with several more nations, friends, Belgium, I'm just reading right now, will join that coalition with fighters right now so we're several days into this expanded operation as we looked at this battle that was raging before our very eyes. What's the status, do you think, of this operation?

FRANCONA: Well, and unfortunately it's two operations. We'd like to call this one target set, ISIS is the target, regardless of where they are located on - either on the Syrian side or on the Iraq side, but unfortunately, because of the politics and just the facts on the ground, we can deal with them on the Iraqi side much more effectively, because we can call air in where we know there are ground troops. Unfortunately, and we've seen this over the past few days, John, just how bad the Iraqi - the shape the Iraqi army is in. A unit overrun just the other day, soldiers killed because they couldn't get reinforcements there. The entire command structure has broken down. So the status of that is not good. We've been able to blunt the offensive in Iraq, but we have not been able to stop in Syria as we're seeing right here. The ISIS is still moving and as Phil said they are taking a little bit more territory every day. This will not stop until we get some sort of boots on the ground, friendly forces, moderate Syrian rebels, somebody that we can work with inside Syria.

BERMAN: Give me a sense of what you think we will see for the next week, the next few days. Will these air strikes be like they have been, picking off a Humvee there, a truck there, an oil refinery here.

FRANCONA: Exactly. Going after fixed targets, buildings where they think that ISIS is located. They'll keep flying the drones looking for targets to present themselves when they see a grouping of vehicles, they'll try to attack that. But unfortunately, we get down into the plinking mode. Where you're taking - you are using a hellfire missile to blow up an armored Humvee or maybe a Toyota with a machine gun mounted on the back of it. It's a very expensive, very ineffective way to do this.

BERMAN: There's something remarkable about these pictures we've been looking at. And again, this was just moments ago on the ridge not far from the Turkish/Syrian border. You can just make it right there, those we believe are ISIS fighters who are engaged in a gunfight right here on TV. We could see it with Syrian Kurdish forces. There were tracer fire, we can hear the bullets, also some mortars fired. A remarkable sight. And it makes me wonder, if ISIS is engaged in this, right by the Turkish borders, right before our cameras, they seem to be doing this out in the open without much fear. What do they fear? FRANCONA: Well, they don't -- they believe -- these are true

believers, if they think they're about to be killed, it's almost as if they don't care, and that's the problem when you're dealing with these people that have what they believe is the true faith, and them dying in battle just gives them the martyrdom that many of them seek.

BERMAN: I think we have Phil Black, again, who is on the border between Syria and Turkey. Just a short distance from where he has been watching a battle between ISIS fighters and Syrian Kurdish forces. Phil, give us an update. What are you seeing?

BLACK: Well, John, it is now almost pitch black out there, I think, from that ridgeline which you might just be able to make out now with the very little light that we have left, that is where the ISIS fighters were positioned through the afternoon, is where they had fallen back to it, is where they were seeking shelter, it is where our photo journalist Claudia Otto saw them taking casualties. And it is where a short time ago she saw them, it would seem, pull back from, pull down the other side of that hill, and I should say that there's been a little bit of tracer fire over the last five to ten minutes or so. But we're not hearing the very constant small arms fire that we were hearing for the last few hours. It appears that the firefight for one of a better expression has ebbed off a little I think. Certainly no more use of mortars, no more of the small arms fire. The occasional tracer shot across the sky. And the last thing that our photojournalist was able to make out clearly was it appeared to be the ISIS forces at the top of that hill pulling back to a position somewhere on the other side, John.

BERMAN: And Phil, is this the first you have seen of ISIS from your vantage point, from the Turkish side of the border? It seems so close to Turkey.

BLACK: Yeah, no question. This is the first we have seen. It is the first time we've seen them. It is certainly -- and also the first time we've been able to broadcast images like this live. To see ISIS in action at this distance is really quite extraordinary. Really. As we've been spending a lot of time at the refugee camps on this side of the Turkish border over the last few days. We have on occasion heard artillery fire in the distance, but nothing like this. We have not seen the figures, themselves, on the hillsides running up and down seeking shelter, firing and taking fire in return. It has been running through the course of the afternoon. As we've been talking about, it has attracted a large crowd of people here, onlookers who are cheering on really for the Kurdish sides, whenever they have scored a hit close to that ridge, where the ISIS fighters were located, the crowds here went up with very loud cheers, at one point even letting off some fireworks as well. Happy, but conflicted scenes, I think. They're happy to see their Kurdish brothers across the other side taking on ISIS in this way, but concerned about what they are seeing as well.

Concerned that ISIS is making progress day by day and the day by day the number of Syrian refugees flooding on to this site is increasing because ISIS is taking control of more territories. Homes, villages. Killing innocent civilians we are told by the refugees that are crossing over. There is a huge human cost to what we are seeing. It is not just a spectator sport at a distance here. It is war that we are witnessing. And it is war with enormous humanitarian consequences. We've seen hundreds of thousands of people flee this fighting in recent weeks. And they have brought with them terrible stories of sorrow, suffering, and loss. Not only have they faced the indignity of having to flee from their homes, drop everything, pick up what they can, run with their children through the dust, to the border, wait in line to be crossed over to be allowed to cross over, searched and then given very basic food, water, and shelter. But they - some of those people have had intimate experiences with ISIS, as they have advanced through this territory. They have seen fighting. They have heard the artillery and as I mentioned earlier, some of these people have told us terribly sad stories about losing family members to the fighting as it has raged around them. So what we have been seeing today on the ground here is really, John, so very extraordinary. And it is not just some men in the distance on top of the hill. It represents and is one small part of the ISIS advance through this territory that has created such an enormous humanitarian catastrophe. John?

BERMAN: You know, the most poignant sound, not the sound of gunfire but the sound of those Syrian refugees cheering when someone does take the battle to ISIS. Phil, we just have about a minute left here. I'm here with Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona who has a question for you.

FRANCONA: Phil, do you get a sense that the - that ISIS is trying to drive the refugees into Turkey they are trying to cut the border off and prevent them from fleeing?

BLACK: It appears that they're not concerned with the refugees specifically, what they are trying to do is claim territory and move towards the town of Kabani (ph), which is the major town. It is just over the border, it is due east of this position I think by about seven miles or so. And what we've been told by fighters on the ground, by telephone, is that they believe ISIS is advancing from three directions. From the east where we are, the south and the west as well. They're simply concerned with trying to take this territory. The fact that that the refugees are fleeing before that, there's no sign that they are too concerned with that or that they are targeting these refugees in any way directly. What they are concerned with is taking territory and it would seem moving toward that central town which has a population I think, many tens of thousands of people. It is a significant settlement, and when it was daylight here, we could see it very clearly in the distance and I think it's just worth noting that beyond this current ridgeline where they are fighting now, it is flat ground all the way to Kabani. This would appear to be the last piece of high ground that they are trying to take before moving on that major town.

BERMAN: Phil Black, sit tight if you can. You are doing amazing work for us. Witnessing this fight that's going on right before your very eyes. Please, stay with us. We're going to take a short break. "Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield" picks up right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)