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Don Lemon Tonight

Jesse Matthew Linked To Another Crime From Five Years Ago, Say Police; Ferguson Police Shooting Incident Considered An Isolated Case; Beaheading In Oklahoma; George Clooney Ties The Knot

Aired September 29, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Bad news, Don.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: What?

CAMEROTA: For all the ladies. Some men, I suppose.

LEMON: I was going to say some gentlemen as well.

CAMEROTA: Who were holding out hope for perfection. We're sorry to report that George Clooney is officially off the market.

LEMON: We're going to have details about his ceremony and photos and a lot more coming up in our next hour on CNN TONIGHT which starts right now.

Good evening. Top of the hour. CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. It's 11:00 on the east coast.

In Virginia tonight, could it be the big break, the one that police have been waiting for. They say at rest of a suspect in the disappearance of a University of Virginia student has led to a development in the death of a female college student from five years ago. Do they have a serial killer on their hands?

LEMON: We're learning new details tonight on the scuffle that resulted in a police officer getting shot in Ferguson, Missouri where tensions have been running high again.

CAMEROTA: And Hollywood's most eligible bachelor gets married in a ceremony that's fit for Hollywood royalty. And what do we know about George Clooney's new wife?

LEMON: Or Italian royalty as well.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's just royalty all around. Global royalty. We have pictures to show you ahead in this hour.

But first we begin in Virginia. Will an arrest in the disappearance of Hannah Graham, the University of Virginia student, help solve other cases and help solve that case? Police say the arrest of Jessie Matthew has resulted in a significant break in the death of a young woman in 2009. LEMON: So let's talk to some people who've been following this very

closely. Jane Velez-Mitchell, anchor of "Jane Velez-Mitchell" on HLN. Judge at Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex." He is a former police officer and former Florida circuit court judge. Also Coy Barefoot, the host of "Inside Charlottesville" and a professor at the University of Virginia.

Jane, I'm going to start with you. First, bring us up to speed on the new developments.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST, JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they found a forensic link. That's what authorities are calling it. Between the suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham and the murder of Morgan Harrington five years earlier. And remember, Morgan Harrington, according to her parents, her bones were shattered, and they described the killer of their daughter as a violent, sadistic man and a monster and said a monster is amongst us. Now, we don't know if --

LEMON: What's a forensic link, though? Do we know?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it's DNA. Because the reason I say that, and I can't say for sure, that's all they're saying is, is a forensic link. But the reason I say that is that there was mystery suspect DNA that was found on Morgan Harrington's remains. That mystery suspect DNA linked up with a rape that occurred in 2005. A woman 26-years-old, unidentified, was abducted and raped. She also had the same mystery suspect DNA. She survived to help police with a sketch. The sketch looks in my opinion very much like --

LEMON: You think he's a serial killer? Do you think he is?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think that we have to have it play out in court, but if this forensic link pans out, yes, I think he could be at the very least a serial rapist, a killer, and possibly if Hannah Graham doesn't turn up alive a serial killer.

CAMEROTA: Is the sketch from the rape?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That is the sketch. And if you match it with the picture, mug shot or video of Jesse Matthew, I believe there's a lot of similarity. And you have to remember that in 2007 there's a photo taken of him when he was a cab driver. He does not have the dreadlocks. And so his resemblance is more in tune. But if you look at the mustache, you look at the beard, there's definite similarities there.

CAMEROTA: Coy, you did an incredible piece. It was an entire timeline of Jesse Matthew and what he was up to in the hours leading up to Hannah Graham's disappearance. What did you learn about him?

COY BAREFOOT, HOST, INSIDE CHARLOTTESVILLE: I had the opportunity to speak with a number of people who were with Mr. Matthew that night that Hannah Graham disappeared. People who were partying with him in the bars and restaurants here in downtown Charlottesville moments before he met up with Hannah Graham. And what I learned is that his behavior that night for everyone who was with him was troubling, it was aggressive. He really made young women nervous. They left bars and restaurants.

And I want to share something with you now that has not been published. I haven't even put it on my Web site. But I got confirmation tonight that there were a group of women that he was hitting on at one of the bars that night, all of whom moved to the other side of the restaurant and got into a booth to try to get away from him because they said he was so creepy and he was creeping them out, putting his arms around them, touching their hair, touching their face, touching their legs. One young woman with whom I spoke said she finally had to curse at him and say "don't put your f-ing hands on me." Now, that was about an hour before he ran into Hannah Graham down here on the mall.

LEMON: And Jane Velez-Mitchell has been saying the same thing here, that he was very handsy in the bar that night, right? That same reaction you're hearing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And the sense that we get, again, this is a big if. This man deserves his day in court. Is that he was living a double life allegedly. He was working in the hospital as a patient technician. He was a volunteer assistant football coach. He was well loved. He had friends. He was popular. He was a big teddy bear according to some people. So there may be a case of community member by day and predator by night.

LEMON: We'll see. Judge Alex, listen to Morgan's mom and her reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIL HARRINGTON, MOTHER OF MURDER VICTIM, MORGAN HARRINGTON: We always had it on the horizon that someday there would be an arrest and it would introduce a whole set of its own challenges. And I've always said I'd be happy to deal with that when it happened and it's here now. So I didn't want him to be found in this way. But I can accept it because I fought vigorously just like Morgan did that night. I fought vigorously to prevent him from killing another person. Or taking another person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It's so awful. Judge Alex, if police now say there is a forensic link, we don't know what that is, what does it mean? What do you think police found?

JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, JUDGE ALEX: Well, I agree with Jane. I think the greatest likelihood is it's going to be DNA. Because first of all, you remember that they linked the Harrington case, the one involving Morgan Harrington back to another rape and kidnapping that involved another girl back in 2005. They linked those two together. So now linking him to the Harrington case through the absence or missing situation with Miss Graham kind of links him to all three. And the most logical evidence for that would be DNA. Not fingerprint because they could have gotten his fingerprints at any time. The DNA, they would get upon his most recent arrest. That being the case it doesn't bode well for him because DNA is very,

very powerful evidence. As you know, Don, it can exclude everybody on the planet except you in some circumstances. So that makes it a lot harder for the defendant if they have a good DNA match on him.

And my heart goes out to the family of Morgan Harrington because as parents we know, you know, we wish we could protect our children their entire life and at some point we just have to let them go and there's nothing more tragic to any parent out there than the disappearance of their child or in the Harrington case the death of their child at the hands of somebody as evil as this.

CAMEROTA: Yes, yes. And the not knowing. I mean, John Walsh always talks about that. What a particular hell on earth that is.

Coy, I want to ask you because they call this area, you know it well, the route 29 corridor where a spate of young women have been killed or gone missing and police have theorized that perhaps there is a serial killer on the loose. Have they connected the dots for you in terms of if they think this Jesse Matthew is connected to all of them?

BAREFOOT: Well, we could go back to 1996 and Alicia Showalter Reynolds, who was abducted from route 29 north of Charlottesville and her body was found about 15 miles away. There's a string of these things going on for years. Is Jesse Matthew involved? I don't know. I think the investigators are doing amazing work. But they want to make sure that they have the right guy. This investigation is slow. It's deliberate. It's meticulous. And give props where it's due. They are doing incredible work.

You know, I started this morning here in Charlottesville standing in the rain watching search helicopters go back and forth over Carter's mountain and even Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. And the sun slipped behind the blue ridge mountains tonight and Hannah Graham is still not home.

And I want everyone that can hear me to know that this community is absolutely committed to doing whatever we can do to find Hannah Graham and make sure that she gets home to her mom and dad.

LEMON: Judge, you have been talking about protecting children, you and Jane. It's tough to protect children. But what can college campuses do to protect students even better?

FERRER: You know, I think college campuses try to do everything they can. They're somewhat reactive. But it's kind of hard to predict where the next attack is going to come from. We saw that horrible event in Virginia years ago and then they started with text alerts all over the country on college campuses when there was a gunman on campuses and things like that.

What can you really do in a situation like this where off campus, you know, in the middle of the night after having some drinks, nobody really knows what happened but it appears if anybody knows what happened to Miss Graham, and I'm certainly avoiding saying she's deceased because we are all hoping that she's alive and will be found, it clearly happened off campus and at a time when the campus really couldn't do anything.

But I think what they do so far, giving alerts, notifying when there's a threat on campus, having all the students who have access to the texts, which is everybody, be notified immediately, they're doing the right thing. And we unfortunately only learn after a horrible event, another option that we could take, and that isn't very comforting.

LEMON: Judge Alex, Coy, Jane, thank you very much.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks so much.

BAREFOOT: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Up next we'll go to Ferguson, Missouri where there are developments in the shooting of a police officer.

And the newest Clinton makes her debut.

LEMON: Look at the flash bulbs.

CAMEROTA: Will her arrival influence Hillary's decision whether to run for the oval office?

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE)

CAMEROTA: There you go.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: New developments to tell you about tonight in the shooting of a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri during the tensions this weekend.

CNN's Sara Sidner is live in Ferguson for us. Sara, tell us what you are seeing at this hour.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You can hear it and can see it behind me. There are protesters who are out here. It is pretty much a thing that happens just about every night right outside of the police department.

Today, it has been peaceful. People have been walking up and down the streets, mostly gathered just here either right on the corner of the police department or on the other side of the street in the police department, chanting different sorts of things, talking about shutting the city down if they don't do something about the department, its relationship with the black community here. Certainly the tensions still exist here in Ferguson and they've been that way since August 9th when Michael Brown was shot down, unarmed teenager shot down by a white police officer -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: And Sara, you have new information on the shooting of a police officer that cause people there over the weekend. What do we know tonight?

SIDNER: Here's what we can tell you. We first want to be very clear with law enforcement saying this has nothing to do, the shooting of the police officer, nothing to do from their perspective with the protests or any kind of retaliation because of what happened to Michael Brown.

But what they are telling us tonight, a source in the department saying the police officer actually was shot in the arm after confronting a suspect who had a gun pointed at the officer's chest. The officer then swiped the gun away. The gun went off hitting the officer in the arm. The officer was actually left-handed. The shot hit his left arm, and so he reached with his right arm, pulled out a gun, and tried to shoot at the suspect, but the suspect ended up running away.

Police do not believe he was shot. And he is still at large at this hour. Police still looking for a suspect. Not much of a description for that suspect either.

CAMEROTA: And Sara, what of the crazy details of that incident is that as I understand it the police officer was wearing a body camera. We've spoken so much about whether or not police should be equipped with body cameras. But it wasn't turned on.

SIDNER: That's right. We asked specifically the St. Louis county police department, who was looking into the case, investigating the case, and they said actually, the officer did have his body cam on. And as you know, a couple of companies donated those cameras after the Michael Brown shooting to the Ferguson police department. All of the officers are supposed to be wearing them when they go out on patrol. He indeed was wearing his camera. But when asked, we asked the St. Louis police department, the county police department, and they told us, well, it just wasn't activated. He had not turned that camera on.

There are a lot of questions about exactly what the policy is. One of our sources telling us that the policy he followed, that he did not have to turn it on because he wasn't engaged with the public at large. Another source from the city, an official telling us actually they were surprised that he didn't turn that camera on, especially in a situation where he was alone in a very dark area behind a community center. That is where the shooting happened. So a lot of confusion and we're trying to get our hands on that camera policy at this point in time here in Ferguson, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Yes, because it's really only affected if it's on. So Sara, thanks so much for the update from there. Appreciate it.

LEMON: Want to bring in captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri highway patrol. He is keeping everything safe there.

Captain, you know, we just saw Sara Sidner. She is out in the streets. How has the scene there in Ferguson been over the last 24 to 48 hours especially in light of what happened?

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: It's been up and down. There have been some positive points and there's been some negative points. Peaceful times and some hostile times. LEMON: We were watching on Saturday night as people were out in the

street and they became upset at the situation that happened. And the officer was shot. Take us back to Saturday night. What happened? Why were people so angry and so many people were out in the street?

JOHNSON: Well, we had some people who actually put out some false rumors that a young man had been shot and killed by police. And that's been part of our issue. We've had some leaders in our community actually put out false information that was untrue. The crowd became agitated. They thought a young man had been killed. And they were upset by that.

I arrived scene and informed the crowd that an officer had been shot. And I was -- to my surprise there was no concern when I said an officer had been shot. It was more so relief that a suspect hadn't been shot and it was an officer.

LEMON: You know, we know more now about what happened in the shooting. Sources telling CNN the suspect had a gun and the officer was pushing the suspect's gun away from him and pulled out his own secondary weapon. As Sara Sidner was saying and shot the suspect. Is this random violence or is it in any way related to the earlier turmoil there? We're hearing that it's not, but do you think it's related to that at all?

JOHNSON: No, I don't. I think it's random violence. I think the officer was checking the back of a building. The suspect apparently had entered the building. So I think it's random violence. I think it would be unfair to say it was a part of the protesters.

LEMON: But as you concede, anything can spark outrage and can spark confrontation there. As you said, some false information was given out. That sparked some outrage. And if this happened, a police officer shot, that can spark some violence as well. So I'm sure there is a concern.

So let's talk about those cameras, which many people think should be on all the time, especially when Ferguson is going through what it's going through now. In the case of this shooting it's not alone. Are there people that are there that are angered about this and about the cameras not being on even though they have them?

JOHNSON: I'm sure there are some people who want some clarity on what that policy is. I do not know what that policy is. The Ferguson PD would be the agency that would define the policy. But yes, people are going to expect it if we're going to wear cameras or we're going to have cameras on our vehicles and our person that they are on and they are activated

LEMON: Because what good is it. Let's move on and talk about the president now. He was at the congressional black caucus dinner on Saturday night and this is what he had to say about the situation in Ferguson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I won't comment on the investigation. I know that Michael's family's here tonight. I know that nothing any of us can say can ease the grief of losing a child so soon. But the anger and the emotion that followed his death awakened our nation once again to the reality that people in this room have long understood, which is in too many communities around the country a gulf of mistrust exists between local residents and law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A gulf of mistrust. Does it still exist between local residents there and law enforcement?

JOHNSON: Yes, there is a sense of mistrust. I do think that we have to start taking tiny steps toward that trust, but we have a long way p to go. And I would agree with the president on his statements.

LEMON: How is morale there for law enforcement?

JOHNSON: It's tough. Morale is -- our officers are standing strong and they're brave men and women. But it's been tough week here for them. They've gone through a lot. Their families have gone through a lot. And once again, like I've said, we are a good profession. Are we perfect? No. But we're good. And we have men and women dedicated to making this community better. The officer shot Saturday night was acting making our community safe and almost lost his life.

So morale is tough. It's really hard to look so many officers in the face and you can see it in their faces. But I have not heard an officer say that I don't want to be assigned to this detail. I'm not willing to come back. And so we continue on and we'll make it through this.

LEMON: Thank you. Captain Ron Johnson, Missouri Highway Patrol. We appreciate that. Almost two months. Still.

CAMEROTA: Incredible that still tonight there are protests. It just keeps sort of like a snowball. You know, there are new things that happen.

LEMON: Yes. We're keeping a close eye on it. On Saturday night I couldn't believe it, it's like there are -- I was watching the live feed from home, and I said this is -- I hope this doesn't become a repeat of the big demonstrations, the big protests that happened last time. At least the violent part of those protests.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. And tonight it seems as though that has not happened.

Up next we will talk about police tactics that are now being used in Ferguson in the wake of Michael Brown's fatal shooting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The latest unrest in Ferguson highlights the issue of police tactics and protocol, not just in Ferguson, but really all around the country.

Joining us now is Shaun King, the author and founder of "Justice," and Kevin Jackson, the executive director of the Black Sphere and the black conservative coalition. Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator.

Marc, I don't know if you caught that, but when Captain Johnson said the crowds that were out there were relieved that a police officer was shot rather than a suspect, what did you make of that?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I'm not sure if that's true or not. I respect Captain Johnson. I think when the crowd is wound up thinking that a young man was shot, particularly in the wake of Michael Brown, I think there's a certain amount of anxiety when they hear it's an officer. I think it might have been more about knowing that another innocent young man wasn't shot. I don't think the crowd was cheering a police officer was killed. You know, being on the ground in Ferguson for a while, I never got the sense anyone was hoping anything bad happened to police. They just didn't want anything bad to happen to more young men.

LEMON: You're on the ground there. Are you surprised there would be such unrest weeks, months, really a month, almost two months after Michael Brown was killed in the violent protests that erupted?

HILL: Not at all because this didn't seem like purely a reaction to one incident. This seemed to be a reaction to a broad range of problems in the town and also there hasn't been an arrest. There hasn't been a full report from the grand jury. I think until there's some sense of resolution there will continue to be outrage.

LEMON: So Kevin, you said that in the past that African-American communities needed to stop pointing the finger at police. Do you think that's the problem in Ferguson? Do you still stand by that?

KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE BLACK SPHERE: Yes, I do. And I want to go back to what Marc said earlier. Captain Johnson didn't say that they cheered that the cop was shot. What he said was there was no reaction to the cop being shot. And at a human level you would think if a police officer got shot people would say is he OK? There was no reaction to that. So Marc was completely off his game --

LEMON: I think he said they were relieved --

HILL: No, he said they were relieved.

JACKSON: As far as what's going on in the --

LEMON: No, he said they were relieved.

JACKSON: Well, essentially what he was saying was no one had concern for the cop being shot. That's it. And that's exactly what the problem is in the black community. We need police in our communities the same way all communities need police, and there was no sympathy for this cop being shot. So yes, it is part of the problem.

LEMON: Go ahead, Shaun.

SHAUN KING, AUTHOR/FOUNDER, JUSTICE: That's very inaccurate. Yes, it was very inaccurate. I mean, there were hundreds of people on the ground and for him to even say he had an understanding of how everybody felt. I saw tweets go out right away from leaders who were right there who felt bad that anybody was injured at all. And so it's really misguided.

But I think even deeper than that, you really have a fundamental misunderstanding of how deep the level of distrust for police is in St. Louis. And this deep history not just in St. Louis but in Ohio where John Crawford was killed or in New York where Eric Garner was choked and people don't really have any trust that justice is going to happen.

I frankly believe the police even in this case are covering up just some of the fundamental details. They said that he was killed 35 feet from the SUV. But we went there and measured it. And the police were fundamentally told a lie where Mike Brown was killed over 100 feet away from the SUV.

LEMON: Well, listen. Kevin, why are you -- why are you laughing? Why are you smirking there when he says that?

JACKSON: I'm smirking because every time I come on one of these and do an event, a hit like this somebody brings up anecdotal information about, well, there was this one incident here, one incident here. The police interact with black people thousands if not hundreds of thousands of times a day. And you get the one anecdotal incident and suddenly there's all this call to arms. Look, there are --

LEMON: Kevin --

HILL: It's not an anecdote.

LEMON: Let Kevin finish and then Shaun, you can jump in.

JACKSON: Yes, exactly, let me finish. My point is very simple. There are hundreds of thousands of interactions with cops. Occasionally they go bad. It isn't always great. And you know what? We feel for those families. But the problem is we take a situation like this that guys like Shaun and whomever, and they want to make it bigger than what it is. Look, these guys have a difficult job to do. Let's help them do it.

LEMON: Shaun?

KING: Yes, fundamentally, Don, if we had a case, for instance, where we learned that someone was wrongfully executed by the government, that someone was convicted with the death penalty and executed there would be an outrage. And what we see basically is case after case of black man after black man being executed by the police. They are playing judge, jury, and executioner. And then doing everything they can to cover it up. And then there's no justice to compensate these families, where they just have to go home and just accept the reality that an officer killed your son if your John Crawford or killed your dad if he's Eric Gardner and there's no reciprocating justice. And so it's incredibly frustrating. And my best educated guess is that the anger's not going to die down anytime soon until there is justice.

LEMON: I want to get Marc Lamont Hill in there. Ho ahead, Marc.

HILL: Two quick points. One, Kevin is resisting the idea of anecdotes. But what Captain Johnson offered just a moment ago was an anecdote and he used it to support his argument that black people don't care about the well-being of police. That was purely an anecdote. There were hundreds of thousands of people down there who had a different anecdote than Captain Johnson. I think we need to look beyond anecdotes' stories is data. And data suggests to Kevin's point that no, every interaction between police and black people isn't bad. That would be adsorb to say.

But it happens routinely enough that it's a problem. If you look at every study of who gets pulled over, of who gets arrested, of who gets charged, who becomes the victim of extrajudicial violence and killing in particular, you see that black people are overrepresented. So we either have to say that black people are really poorly behaved around police or perhaps there's some negative relationship between police and communities. And I think the answer might be we need to have a conversation about all of those things.

But I don't think we should dismiss this as something that's marginal or irrelevant. This is a significant problem that occurs nearly every single day in our communities and it's worth covering because black people are worth protecting.

LEMON: I have ten seconds left, Kevin, to respond to that. Because you're not buying any of it.

JACKSON: I would love to see Marc provide evidence of every single day. Things happen. These are very few and far between situations that get overblown by guys like him.

LEMON: All right. Marc Lamont Hill --

HILL: Check the MXGM report on the extrajudicial killing of black men.

LEMON: Kevin Jackson, Marc Lamont Hill, Shaun King, thank you guys. Appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: All right, Don, coming up, we need to talk about this shocking story. A man in Oklahoma stands accused of beheading one woman and attacking another at his workplace. Was it terrorism or was he just a lone disturbed individual? We'll debate that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: An unthinkable crime in this country. A man is accused of beheading a woman at his workplace in Moore, Oklahoma. Alton Nolen refers to himself as Ja'akeem Yisrael (ph) on his facebook page which is filled with screeds against the U.S., images of Osama bin Laden and a beheading. But is this terrorism? Joining us to debate this is Ben Ferguson. He is a CNN political

commentator and host of "The Ben Ferguson Show." Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst. And CNN's Marc Lamont Hill is back with us. Guys, great to have you.

Mel, is this terrorism?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. That's exactly what this is. And you know, I think it's important to call it that for three reasons. The first one is if we don't draw a very clear line between terrorists that are committing these kinds of acts and the vast majority of Muslims in this world that are peaceful and that are also horrified by this kind of stuff, then you're creating problems for the law-abiding, the peaceful Muslims that --

CAMEROTA: Of course. Of course. And I'm sorry to interrupt you. But what makes this terrorism? Rather than just a deranged crazy person killing a co-worker.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Beheading.

ROBBINS: There are two reasons what makes this terrorism. First of all, there are substantial pieces of evidence that link this guy to the beheadings that have been happening overseas. Just a week ago there was a 42-minute-long video that was put out calling for lone Wolf attacks. We don't know if this guy saw it or not. But Alisyn, you know what we do know? He had posted beheadings on his Facebook page. He had posted about Osama bin Laden. He had posted about the twin towers burning. He had posted about the statue of liberty burning.

FERGUSON: Not just posted.

ROBBINS: He had also quoted from the Koran and --

FERGUSON: Not just -- he didn't just post it. He advocated for it. He encouraged it. He was supporting the acts of terrorism. There were 500 people last year alone that were killed in what we refer to as workplace violence. Guess how many of them involved a beheading, zero. That's another reason why you know that this is an issue of terrorism.

CAMEROTA: So it's the act. It's the act --

FERGUSON: Yes. Absolutely it's the act.

CAMEROTA: If he had shot somebody it wouldn't be terrorism.

FERGUSON: Well, it depends. If you look at major Nidal Hasan, for example, at Ft. Hood when he's screaming "Allahu Akbar" as he's blowing people away, I think you can pretty much say that's probably an act of terrorism as well.

ROBBINS: Not probably. It is, Ben.

FERGUSON: Well, he is. But my point is it's pretty simple to know what his intent was there. And the same way with this one. You have a guy that was looking at ISIS and ISIL, posting about ISIS and ISIL, he recently posted on his Facebook page that America is wicked, wake up Muslims. And he goes in and beheads a helpless woman that he did not apparently know because she was the first one he could get his hands on to behead. That is terrorism. And if we don't call it that, we're the ones that are idiots.

CAMEROTA: So Marc Lamont Hill, in other words, people don't need -- whoever the suspect is doesn't need to be taking orders from ISIS necessarily. They just need to be affiliated mentally, their mindset needs to be with ISIS in order for it to be terrorism. Marc, go ahead.

HILL: I reject that idea. Similarly I reject the idea that a beheading as such means it's terrorism. That's absurd. People behead for all sorts of reasons, all of them disturbing, all of them disgusting. But the act of beheading per see does not make it terrorism. Now, the question of whether this person had a religious connection to Islam is an interesting one. And a necessary one to ask. But again, because someone is Muslim and they commit an act of workplace violence that doesn't necessarily make them a terrorist --

FERGUSON: That's not --

ROBBINS: Exactly. This isn't workplace violence for crying out loud. I mean, come on.

HILL: Do me a favor. You will I'm asking --

ROBBINS: Watch all these videos, Marc. What is the down side to calling this terrorism? What is it? That the FBI and the federal government are going to admit that we've got a problem?

FERGUSON: Amen.

HILL: I'd be happy --

ROBBINS: The war on terror also includes the internet and the fact that they are recruiting people and asking people to do things --

HILL: I hear what you guys are saying.

CAMEROTA: Now let Marc respond.

HILL: I just want to be able to make one claim before you guys interrupt me.

OK. So, first of all, terrorism is the use of violence to advance a political, ideological agenda. There's no sense here based on what the law enforcement experts say that he was attempting to advance an ideological or political or even religious agenda. It sounds to me like a deranged person who was Muslim who killed somebody at work. The reason he engaged in workplace violence according to him --

FERGUSON: Marc -- HILL: Hold on, Ben. According to him the reason he engaged in

workplace violence had nothing to do with advancing a religious agenda. He called himself --

FERGUSON: Marc.

ROBBINS: He hasn't spoken yet.

HILL: He called him Jah'keem Yisrael which is a Hebrew name. He had Jesus Christ tattooed on his chest. This guy has mental issues. That's what is it about.

FERGUSON: There's no doubt. But anybody out there that's beheading people including ISIS fighters, they all have mental health problems. They're beheading children, for goodness sakes.

ROBBINS: Correct.

FERGUSON: That's not normal. But it's also in the category of terrorism. And more importantly than that, why is it that we are -- I have to beat my head against the wall for you to act as if you don't want this to be what it is? There's no reason to downplay the magnitude of what this is. ISIS says we want lone wolves. ISIS says go out and behead people.

This guy is advocating for that on his -- in his own words. But you don't want to believe it when he posts it on his own page for his legacy.

HILL: What I think --

FERGUSON: On facebook. No, I don't want to accept he's a terrorist. He's a terrorist.

ROBBINS: Ben, what about the fact, Alisyn, that just a couple weeks ago after the two Americans were beheaded you had Algerian terrorists following suit and kidnapping a French climber, beheading him? Now, they weren't, quote, "affiliated with ISIS," but they had seen the videos. They then made a note that they were doing this because they support what ISIS is doing. You've got Australia that had the largest terrorist attempt foiled, a group of loose folks that were affiliated with is --

FERGUSON: And they called it terrorism.

ROBBINS: -- not taking direct orders --

CAMEROTA: Here's what --

HILL: Those are terrorist actions --

ROBBINS: Those aren't terrorist attacks? It's ridiculous.

HILL: I don't think you that need an email from ISIS for it to be terrorism. I don't think you have to pledge allegiance to ISIS for it to be terrorism. ROBBINS: Posting to your facebook page isn't enough?

HILL: No, what I'm saying is it's possible for there to be psychotic copycats. Psychologists and criminologists talk about people who will see a violent act somewhere and they will replicate that behavior but it doesn't mean they're doing for the same ideological or political aim. And to be a terrorist you need one.

FERGUSON: Marc, you're obviously overlooking reality. And the reality you don't want to deal with the fact that there could be people that actually speak for themselves on their own social media pages that claim and advocate for terrorism, support terrorist acts, post videos of beheadings, say America's wicked, wake up Muslims, and for some reason, and I don't know why, it really does make me crazy, I don't know why you won't accept that as terrorism --

CAMEROTA: I'll tell you why. Ben might have an answer for you. Ben. Mel, and Marc, I have an answer because it's not just the four of us that are groping for some sort of definition. The FBI has a different definition than the state department has.

LEMON: That's very true.

CAMEROTA: We, actually as a country, have not clearly define what constitutes terrorism. But we will take that up tomorrow night for a different night. Guys, thanks so much for this debate. It's always interesting. Ben, Mel, Marc, I appreciate it.

HILL: Pleasure.

CAMEROTA: Everyone, stay with us. Don has something to say.

LEMON: Coming up, he's officially off the market. Sorry, ladies and gentlemen. But George Clooney ties the knot in Italy. We're going to talk about his Hollywood-style wedding next.

CAMEROTA: Goody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back, and they are back. Ben Ferguson, Mel Robbins, and Marc Lamont Hill. Got to bring them in twice, they were so good.

Marc, Ben, and Mel, just in case anyone was under a rock this weekend, confirmed bachelor George Clooney was married to British Lebanese Amal Alamuddin in Venice, Italy on Saturday. Was this a blow to bachelors everywhere? I'm sorry, Marc, take it.

HILL: I was shocked that George Clooney was married for lots of reasons.

CAMEROTA: Like what?

HILL: He didn't seem like the marrying kind.

CAMEROTA: Is that right? HILL: Yes.

LEMON: That's because he was messing with little --

HILL: That is PC.

LEMON: No. You know, starlets and --

HILL: Exactly.

LEMON: And this is a woman of substance.

HILL: That's exactly right. And I suspected that he would not go this route, but he did. And I think it's a disappointment to many people, including tabloid folk who may finally stop speculating about all sorts of stuff that's really not our business.

CAMEROTA: Mel, does this give hope to fabulously accomplished, stunningly attractive women everywhere?

ROBBINS: Well, there is an incredible article that went viral that basically read that, you know, this accomplished London barrister had married an actor. And they turned it on its head. And I think it's really important to note that George Clooney had the class to say he was marrying up. And he's right. This is a woman that speaks three languages, graduated from Oxford and NYU University with a law degree. She practices in London. She practices in New York. She represented illustrious clients including the Wikileaks guy. She is renowned in terms of her legal prowess. She's obviously gorgeous. And you know, for a woman like that to marry a superstar actor, you're right, it does give hope to women everywhere. But more importantly, you guys that are only acting out there, you might --

LEMON: Penelope Cruz. Mel, she looks like Penelope Cruz. But Ben, I have to ask you this.

ROBBINS: Yes, she does.

LEMON: Am I wrong? Am I the only one who's just looking at boat going man, I want that wooden boat?

FERGUSON: That's exactly what I said. I was like I want a Chris craft. So it made me want to go get married again just to do it in a boat like that. Like that's amazing. Somebody said it this weekend. I thought the best way. They said how did she get him? It brings a whole new meaning to being at the right place at the right time in a man's life. He was finally I think kind of ready for this. He'd sowed we hope all his wild oats. And now, he's, you know, chilling on a boat, playing it up, living it up for the crowd.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But I like Mel's point, how did he get her? I mean, she is the one who is truly -- they're both impressive.

LEMON: Come on.

CAMEROTA: Look, they are both really impressive. She's as impressive as he is.

LEMON: Listen. I have to say, do you guys love Venice? I love Venice but I cannot take like three days of it and I need --

HILL: See, that's rich people problems, man.

ROBBINS: Clooney has said he'll never have a baby but I doubt it.

FERGUSON: Don, I guarantee you. You could take two weeks of it in that boat.

LEMON: In that boat I would take a lifetime of it.

FERGUSON: There you go.

LEMON: OK. Let's get to the other baby. Can we show them coming out of the hospital? That's our royalty, right?

CAMEROTA: That is our newest royal baby. A new little Clinton. Even though that's not her last name.

LEMON: Yes. So -- I mean, is this too much? Do you think?

HILL: No. I'm happy for the Clintons. I'm happy they have another person who'll be president in the next 45 years. I just, you know, the attention on babies to me sometimes is a little much. I think parents should have time to bond with their kid. And at some point the kid is not going to like this attention when they look back on all of it. So let give people some breathing room. I think it's too much.

LEMON: What you were saying, Ben?

FERGUSON: I love it. I love it because this is the first picture of Bill and Hillary Clinton that hasn't been staged in probably 20 years. So let's enjoy it.

HILL: You think that wasn't staged? You think that wasn't staged?

FERGUSON: No. But I'm saying, I'm talking about without their handlers talking to one another like I'm going to hold Chelsea's hand and you're going to hold the other hand.

CAMEROTA: All right, guys.

LEMON: We're done.

CAMEROTA: Mel, Marc, Ben, thanks for all the fun.

LEMON: We're not bringing them back. That's it.

CAMEROTA: Are you sure?

LEMON: No.

CAMEROTA: OK. But we're coming back. LEMON: We'll be right back.

CAMEROTA: Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: It takes nearly a quarter of a million dollars to raise a child. Child care can overwhelm a family's finances. But this week, CNN hero is relieving some of that burden.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIDGET CUTLER, CNN HERO: I love being a mom. It is the most rewarding thing I've ever experienced. On the flipside, the financial burden of having a child is just tremendous. So many people have such an abundance and so many other strive to afford even the basics.

All right, who wants to water?

I remember reading an article, and it was about a mother who decided to give her child up for adoption because she couldn't stand to hear her crying from hunger. I just thought that no mother should be faced with that choice. That was when I decided that I need to do something.

I started to collect excess baby gear. And that was when Moms Helping Moms was born.

Boys' clothes are to the right, girls' clothes to the left.

We have drives at our storage space. We like to call them shopping space because they are essentially shopping. They are just not paying anything for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is really cool. I've been out of work about 10 months. New clothes, diaper and wipes. They are a constant expense.

CUTLER: These are great. Just take one more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was hard to afford the things that I needed for my kids without an income. Thank God.

The things I got today will allow me to put that money towards rent or my bills.

CUTLER: Every child deserves a fair start. And if what we are doing helps bridge the gap between people from different backgrounds even in a small way it is definitely worth all the hard work.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Very nice.

CAMEROTA: What a great service. It is expensive to raise a child. Chelsea Clinton better get ready. And it is really nice to provide for those --

LEMON: Yes. I think she will be OK.

CAMEROTA: I guess she will.

LEMON: On Thursday, Anderson Cooper will announce this year's top 10 heroes. And voting began choose the CNN hero of the year. That's Thursday morning on "NEW DAY" and on CNN.com.

That's it for us tonight. Thanks for joining us. I'm Don Lemon.

CAMEROTA: I'm Alisyn Camerota. CNN's coverage continues with Rosemary Church and Errol Burnett.