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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

U.S. Beheading Suspect; Protesters Flood Streets of Hong Kong; Obama Says Intelligence Underestimated ISIS; ISIS Defector Says ISIS Was Prepared for Air Strikes

Aired September 29, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: That wraps it up for us @ THIS HOUR. Thanks so much for joining me. "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Accused of cutting off one woman's head and going after another with his knife before a hero's bullet brought him down. Not in the Middle East, but in middle America. The suspect facing charges today from his Oklahoma hospital bed.

Also this hour, the clock striking midnight in Hong Kong, but the sea of protesters showing no sign of backing down, fighting to turn the tide against Beijing's assault on democracy they say.

And dire warnings that another deadly eruption could come any day. The toxic gases and volcanic ash still so dangerous that bodies can't even be removed from the Japanese mountainside.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

First up, charges expected today for the man accused of beheading a woman and stabbing another. Not in Syria. Not in Iraq. Right here in America. The suspect's name is Alton Nolen. And while it sounds like something straight out of an ISIS video, police say so far it is not linked. Nolen recently converted to Islam. And when he found out he was losing his job at a food processing plant in Moore, Oklahoma, he allegedly lost it. As Deb Feyerick explains, the two victims weren't even people he disliked. They were just two women who simply got in his way.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New details are emerging about the man accused of brutally beheading a female coworker at an Oklahoma food processing plant last week. People who knew him say they're stunned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was really just a normal person.

FEYERICK: Police say 30-year-old Alton Nolen is expected to be charged today with first degree murder and assault with a deadly weapon, allegedly going on a knifing spree inside his workplace at Vaughan Foods after being fired. An FBI probe into Nolen's background is underway. Police say he recently converted to Islam and tried to convert his coworkers. Members at his mosque described him as quiet. SAAD MOHAMMED, ATTENDED SAME MOSQUE AS SUSPECT: You could tell that he

was different from everyone else. But as far as violence, we never saw it coming.

FEYERICK: Nolen's knife spree was stopped when he was shot twice by Mark Vaughan, the company's CEO, who's also a reserve deputy with the Oklahoma County Sheriff's Office. Shots fired recorded in this 911 call.

CALLER: It sounds like he's running around out here.

DISPATCHER: OK.

CALLER: And that's -- that's a gunshot.

FEYERICK: Other disturbing details coming to light, a beheading posted on his FaceBook page under the alias Jah'Keem Yisrael. Officials have found no links to terrorism, but Oklahoma residents wonder if the attack could have been influenced by Muslim extremism.

JOYCE NOLEN, MOTHER OF BEHEADING SUSPECT: My son was raised up in a loving home.

FEYERICK: In this video, two women, who say they're relatives, come to his defense.

NOLEN: There's two sides to every story. And we're only hearing one.

FEYERICK: Oklahoma Police reveal Nolen has a lengthy rap sheet. In 2010, he got into a scuffle with a state trooper during a traffic stop. She made this chilling statement to CNN.

LT. BETSY RANDOLPH, ENCOUNTERED BEHEADING SUSPECT IN 2010: If there had been any way to know the things that he is alleged to have done a couple of days ago, I would have killed him when I had the opportunity.

FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: If you look at Nolen's FaceBook page, it certainly seems to fit the criteria for the kinds of things that the Homeland Security Department has been warning law enforcement officials to watch out for. I want to give you just a sampling from his post just since December. Multiple pictures of guns and bazookas, pictures of explosions,

multiple pictures of dead and bloody babies, picture of a partial beheading, picture of children with guns, a picture of a woman being whipped or caned, a picture of the burning World Trade Center towers, multiple pictures of Osama bin Laden and also pictures of a burning man and pictures of the Ku Klux Klan.

Now, the day after a woman was beheaded it at her workplace in Moore, Oklahoma, about 10 miles away in Oklahoma City, a nursing home employee was arrested on Friday for allegedly threatening to do the same thing. A coworker reported that he threatened to cut off her head with a dull blade. But he was apparently going to wait until after she got off work and then post it on FaceBook, allegedly. The woman was wearing a Star of David necklace. She said he told her that he was Muslim, affiliated with ISIS, and that they, quote, "killed Christians by cutting off their heads," end quote. And he, the man on your screen, is now in jail on a terrorism charge.

So, a terrorism charge for threatening a beheading. But for the actual beheading that we've been reporting on, so far it looks like only a first-degree murder charge and an assault with a deadly weapon charge might be at stake.

I want to bring in Mary Ellen O'Toole, a former senior FBI profiler, she was also an FBI special agent, along with CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.

First to you, Paul. What's the difference here other than one woman died and the other woman was just threatened, and that case warrants terrorism?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there's actually a big difference. All of those things that you cited that were on -- that were posted, references to beheadings, to war, to the whole list that you gave. You know where those things were also posted? CNN, Fox, MSNBC, every news channel in the United States. Now that doesn't make any of those news channels terrorists. What makes it a terrorist act, it has to be linked - the posting of those things has to be linked to an intent to coerce or intimidate civilian government, civilians, and to influence government policy. Can they prove that that was why he posted those things? I think it's a hard case to prove that. And by the way, he's much worse off under local law just facing a regular murder charge. He'll probably be facing the death penalty, so you really don't get anything by adding a terrorism charge to the plate.

BANFIELD: So, Mary Ellen, maybe you can weigh in on just this notion that -- what's the difference? I mean, ultimately, the net effect is that a woman was killed in a merciless way. Whether he had terrorism in his heart or whether he had seen something and was an angry, psychotic person who was influenced by something he saw, what's the difference?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER: Well, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to be inside someone's heart and head and know what is it that precisely motivated him. But here's the - here's the important point, and we had to do this all the time and behaviorally analyzing a crime scene. You look at the behavior of the crime scene, you look at the weapon that he used and it's certainly, I think, accurate to say that this person was influenced by the recent videos and information on ISIS. But prior to his -- to this crime, you're dealing with someone who has a violent history. You're dealing with someone who, from his prior behavior and from information that's coming out on him, that is really persuaded and motivated by violence. And if you scraped away the ISIS influence, you'd still have a very violent individual. And that's what the prosecutor is going to say in this case is that scrape away the ISIS, this is still someone that chose a very violent way to end someone's life. And again, he's facing a much tougher charge locally than he would be by the federal government.

BANFIELD: Right. So, Paul Callan, the word is, is that he, you know, he was shot by one of the employees there. In fact, an executive. He's in a hospital bed and apparently he is talking. The police have said that they've interviewed this suspect. What are they asking? By the way, there's the hero on your screen right now, the one who was able to actually take out Alton Alexander Nolen before any more violence could be perpetrated on this website - on this workplace. What are they asking him? What kind of questions are they trying to get out of him before perhaps he might know to invoke his Fifth Amendment right to lawyers?

CALLAN: Well, you know, this is a two-part crime. One, he has to have the intent in committing the act to influence government policy, to intimidate a civilian population and then, two, he has to engage in the act. Of course, they got him cold on doing the beheading and killing this poor victim.

BANFIELD: There's witnesses everywhere. I mean obviously they've arrested - he was covered in -

CALLAN: OK, so that's -- so what was in his head? If he says, I did it to advance ISIS, I did it to advance Islam and his version of jihad -

BANFIELD: If he - (INAUDIBLE).

CALLAN: If he says that, all right, now we make out a terrorism charge, OK? You've made the link.

But on the other hand, if he's just a mentally deranged individual who has seen this on television and engaged in the act -- and I noted one strange thing about him. He's got a Jesus tattoo on his body, but he also has an Arabic saying that means "peace be upon you." So he's kind of - he's all over the place. Although since he got out of prison, he's been more on the Islamic extremism side than on the Christian side. But he doesn't sound like a trained terrorist linked to ISIS. And in the end, we come back to, he's going to spend more time in jail if you charge it as a regular murder case and you don't have to prove all that other stuff. So, in the end, I think that's probably how it will be prosecuted. People have to understand, though, this is not law enforcement walking away from terrorism. This is just being smart about prosecuting a case.

BANFIELD: Well, it's distressing nonetheless when people look at this and it sure walks like a duck and, you know, that kind of thing gets people awfully nervous. But I want to thank both of you, Mary Ellen O'Toole and Paul Callan, for your - your insights on this. We're going to continue to follow that story.

Also, I want you to take a look at some live pictures that we've been getting out of Hong Kong. It's just after midnight in Hong Kong but look at the streets. Thousands and thousands of protesters will not leave. They're blocking the streets because they're demanding democracy. Those demonstrations are being blamed for the shaky U.S. stock market opening this morning as well. So reverberations all the way from that side of the world to America. We're going to update you as to what's happening there and why in a moment.

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BANFIELD: I've got some live pictures for you right now and pretty astounding pictures and sound at that. This is Hong Kong 14 minutes past midnight. This is a group of pro-democracy demonstrators and they have absolutely swamped the city's financial hub. No sign of this letting up despite this late hour, too. But earlier the police were really pushing back against protesters. Take a look at this over the weekend. Tear gas being launched at many of these protesters. You can see them running from the areas where the canisters landed. These crowds want Beijing, effectively, to butt out of local Hong Kong politics. They said they were promised that back in 1997 when the Brits handed Hong Kong back over to Beijing, but they said lately they can't even vote for the people they want to vote for without Beijing vetting the candidates and that's essentially what had a lot to do with what you're seeing behind our Ivan Watson.

Ivan, I watched you being part of that group that was hit by the tear gas canisters on Sunday. These folks are not used to this kind of police action. This is a law and order city state. I mean Hong Kong has just never really seen anything like this.

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. It's got such a reputation for stability, which is why so many companies have their offices here.

And those scenes that we saw Sunday night of people being gassed, it's the first time many of the demonstrators had ever tasted, smelled tear gas, and it seemed like it was the first time that many of the police had ever used it against their own citizens.

I'm happy to report that the scene throughout the day and the night tonight has been much more peaceful. You have this kind of sea of humanity that is occupying what is an eight-lane highway, the main highway that runs through the center of this city, Carol.

And it's after midnight here, the second night in a row that these very young demonstrators are occupying it. We've seen some trucks coming in, some motorcycles, bringing more supplies.

These kids -- and I stress they are kids, 19, 20 years old, 21 years old -- are camping out here. They are bringing in supplies, food, water, you know, surgical masks just in case they get tear gassed again, and they are not going anywhere.

They're saying their sit in will continue until their democratic demands are met.

Carol?

BANFIELD: Oh, you've got Ashleigh here. Carol's passed over, but I know it's late there, Ivan, and you've been doing an amazing job, wall-to-wall coverage. This has been going on for days. I completely understand. I've been in your boat, my friend.

Keep us posted, Ivan, and hopefully things will stay peaceful, and we won't have any scenes like we saw yesterday with the tear gas canisters, et cetera.

Ivan Watson doing the work for us in Hong Kong, but just amazing shots as you seem them. Just past midnight and no one is going anywhere.

I want to take you to another one of our top stories, the fight against ISIS terrorist, CNN speaking exclusively to an ISIS fighter who says they were ready for the U.S.-led bombing campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via translator): They thought they knew everything, but thank god, they don't know anything. And god willing, we will defeat the infidels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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BANFIELD: President Obama says ISIS is a much bigger problem than United States intelligence first thought and that the Iraqi army, a bigger disappointment than the United States first thought.

After well over 200 U.S. air strikes against ISIS targets in Iraq, and now more than 50 in Syria, the president reflected on the group he calls ISIL in an interview with "60 Minutes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think our head of the intelligence community, Jim Clapper, has acknowledged that they underestimated what had been taking place in Syria.

Essentially, what happened with ISIL was that you had al-Qaeda in Iraq which was a vicious group but our marines were able to quash with the help of Sunni tribes.

They went back underground, but over the past couple of years during the chaos of the Syrian civil war, where essentially you have huge swaths of the country ungoverned, they were able to take advantage of that chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BANFIELD: For now, at least ISIS claims that it is unfazed from the attacks by the United States and an unprecedented coalition of Arab states.

I want to play you some comments to our CNN's Arwa Damon who also interviewed a defector from the group that calls itself Islamic State. Here's her exclusive report.

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ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When coalition airstrikes blasted the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa, (inaudible) saw a target of opportunity. He called the only person he could trust.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via translator): He was a relative. He was always telling me to defect.

DAMON: Defect from ISIS. (Inaudible( shaved his beard and crossed into Turkey, visibly anxious as we speak, now wanted by all sides

The organization he refers to as the Islamic State, he tells us, relies heavily on foreign fighters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (via translator): I don't see anything. The French, they have so much control. They're even more extreme than we are. They come from France, but it's as if they have been a part of the Islamic State for years.

DAMON: And he says ISIS was well prepared for coalition airstrikes, moving their fighters and equipment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They almost entirely emptied out the headquarters. Some equipment, they hid in civilian neighborhoods. Some, they hid underground.

DAMON: We are interviewing (inaudible) by Skype. He's an ISIS fighter in Raqqa, but he won't speak directly to a woman so that's why (inaudible) is asking the questions.

DAMON: Since the coalition airstrikes in Syria, he says, ISIS banned all communications from Raqqa.

With permission from his emir, Abu Talha travelled closer to the border with Iraq, to be able access the Internet for this interview.

ABU TALHA, SYRIAN ISIS FIGHTER (via translator): We have been ready for this for some time. We know that our bases are known because they're tracking us with radars and satellites, so we had back-up locations,

They thought they knew everything, but thank god, they don't know anything. And, god willing, we will defeat the infidels.

DAMON: He says he was with the fighters who overran Mosul and that they knew how easy it would be to push out the Iraqi army and seize their weapons and armor, much of it American made. TALHA: This thing was all planned and prepared. There was nothing that was by chance. It was all organized.

DAMON: Abu Talha scoffed at the coalition strikes on the oil installations and other targets.

TALHA: We, the Islamic State, we have revenue other than oil. We have other avenues, and our finances are not going to stop just because of oil losses

They hit us in some areas, and we advance in others. If we are pushed back if Iraq, we advance in northern Syria. These strikes cannot stop us, our support, or our fighters.

DAMON: For (inaudible), the caliphate was a dream, one he still believes in, but not under ISIS, not like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a 70-year-old sheikh killed in front of me. The Islamic State can't continue like this.

There are a lot of youth who are joining, 14-, 15-years-old. Maybe my voice can make them think again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: And Arwa Damon joins me live now. Right now she's joining me via telephone. You might have seen her earlier this morning on CNN with a video connection.

But because of some recent shelling -- and, Arwa, you'll have to confirm this for me. I've been hearing that you were right at the Turkish border but there were mortars landing nearby, and so you've had to move positions.

Fill me in on, first of all, your safety, your security, your position, and what you're seeing.

DAMON (via telephone): Yeah. We moved away from our location that was right along the Turkish border with Syria. Throughout the day, we were watching ISIS fighters moving around this area on the Syrian side with a fair amount, with a surprising amount of impunity.

A lot of these Turkish Kurds who are watching this with us were saying that they couldn't understand how ISIS was moving around so freely, given that there were coalition aircraft in the air and that, for over 10 days now, we've been reporting on the siege of Kobani and how the Syrian Kurds that are fighting there -- mostly Syrian Kurds -- have been asking for additional support.

There were a number of mortar rounds that landed inside Turkey, but then what forced us to leave from our position where we were located was dozens of other mostly Turkish Kurds were watching what was happening on the other side of the border. Three mortars came flying over our head within the span of about 15 minutes.

Turkey is finding itself increasingly drawn into this conflict, not just in terms of trying to cope with the refugee situation but situations like what we saw unfolding along its borders earlier today.

Turkey has significantly beefed up it is own military presence along that border. It did change its rules of engagement so that, if shells do land inside Turkey, it reserves the right to respond in kind.

We did see the Turkish military earlier in the day responding to earlier mortar rounds, firing into Syria. But this mostly goes to underscore why it is that so many of these Syrian Kurds, Turkish Kurds who are inside Syria trying to push is back from the town of Kobani, keep calling for additional coalition air strikes.

They say that they cannot hold ISIS off indefinitely, and ISIS is slowly but surely advancing towards that town. It has caused a massive exodus, this ISIS advance, throughout this specific portion of northern Syria in the last 10 days of upwards of 200,000 refugees.

Kobani in and of itself is very strategic (inaudible) as a clear and fully controlled logistical supply line from the Turkish border to its stronghold of Raqqa.

BANFIELD: Well, be careful, Arwa. That goes without saying. You and your crew, be as careful as you can.

And I can't tell you how much we appreciate you all doing this reporting as close to the front lines as one could possibly imagine you could get to people like ISIS fighters, Arwa Damon and our CNN crew, just incredibly brave to be doing this.

By the way, what can be done to take on ISIS? If those air strikes don't seem to be pushing them back to stop any onslaught, what about all those Iraqi soldiers who just cut and run?

Would the Iraqis actually want them back? Is that all they can get? Thus, you've got to get them back? We're going to talk strategy in just a moment.

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