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At This Hour

News Briefing in Oklahoma on Beheading Suspect; Latest Secret Service Slip; Frightening New Illness in Colorado

Aired September 30, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JULIA PIERSON, DIRECTOR, SECRET SERVICE: I will not tolerate if personnel missteps where people either failed to act or do not support the work force or do not work in unison. But I would say that suspect there are many people that are still pushing back and I'm going to continue to lead forward.

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MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: @THISHOUR, Secret Service Director Julia Pierson is answering for the latest Secret Service slip, the White House intruder, White House fence jumper, whatever you want to call him, getting far deeper inside the building than was previously reported.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We want to talk about this with former Secret Service agent and instructor, Dan Bongino. He wrote a book, "Life Inside the Bubble," about his service. And his brother is still an agent. Dan is running for Congress in Maryland. And also Ronald Kessler joins us, an investigative journalist whose latest book about the agency is called "The First Family Detail."

Dan, there are two parts that shock me, is just how far this man got inside the White House. And the second part of it is the fact that the story keeps on changing. I mean, this is the Secret Service whose job it is to protect the president on behalf of the American people, yet what they're telling us keeps on changing. Should I be as surprised as I am about this?

DAN BONGINO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT & AUTHOR: No, you should be surprised. You should be disappointed. Your taxpayer dollars as well as everyone else funds an agency to protect the life of the presidency of the United States. Their P.R. shop there, I don't know what the strategy has been. Is it to slow roll it? Pretend it's going to go -- I don't understand. I'm a little confused myself.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Let me interrupt you. Actually, real quickly, we have to interrupt you because we want to turn to a press conference happening right now in Oklahoma. This is the Cleveland County district attorney in Oklahoma talking about that horrifying beheading that happened in Moore. Let's listen in.

GREG MASHBURN, CLEVELAND COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: -- death penalty, life with parole, life without parole, the two -- counts two and three carry up to life in prison.

These allegations stem from the investigation conducted by the Moore Police Department and are based on the following facts as we know them at this time. Earlier in the day last Thursday, the H.R. Department at Vaughan Foods received complaints against Mr. Nolan. He was called in and suspended and escorted to the parking lot. He then left Vaughan Foods where he went home, retrieve a knife and returned to Vaughan Foods to get revenge on certain people that he felt responsible for getting him suspended and who had wronged him. Upon entering the building he came across Mrs. Hufford and attacked her from behind, ultimately killing her and beheading her. He saw Mrs. Johnson, who had been the person who had complained on him earlier that day, and attacked her. Mr. Vaughan arrived with his rifle and shot Mr. Nolen as Mr. Nolen was charging at him with a knife in his hand.

The FBI continues to investigate Mr. Nolen's background and we're being kept appraised by any information that they come across. The Moore Police Department has done an excellent job and continues to keep us up to date with any information they come across and they are delivering their reports to us. And as more details are given to us as and we review that information provided to us by law enforcement, we could always add additional counts as we identify people who may have been also assaulted during this altercation at Vaughan Foods.

Questions?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why no terrorism charge at this point?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you looking at any link to terror.

MASHBURN: The FBI is looking into any lunges that Mr. Nolen may have had to any organizations and they're looking into that history and any information that they come across will be kept appraised of that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We know on his Facebook page he was actually looking at beheadings --

MASHBURN: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: -- and as a local law enforcement agency, you have access to that. Why is that not enough to pursue a terrorism charge?

MASHBURN: There is not a terrorism statute in the state of Oklahoma. If there is, if that avenue is decided to be pursued, it could be something that's pursued by the federal authorities. Right now, I have a murder charge that we will vigorously prosecute and two other charges that carry up to life in prison. And as we get more information that relates to that, we'll coordinate with the federal authorities and see where that leads us.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you not plan on seeking the death penalty this case?

MASHBURN: It is highly likely that I will seek the death penalty this case. Before that decision is made, I'll talk to the family of Mrs. Hufford. That decision is not fair to make without consulting them first but that's highly likely at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Talk to me about the attack. You said she didn't see it coming. What transpired?

MASHBURN: Well, my understanding, from what I know, he entered, he saw her standing in a doorway with her back towards him and he felt that he had been wronged by her or oppressed by her in some manner and so he chose to attack her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were there any religious believes or believes linked to any terrorist organization that might have motivated him in his attacks?

MASHBURN: That, again, is still being looked at by the FBI and so as more information on that angle comes in then we can look at that, but that's not something that I have been privy to exact details of how he felt about that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did he say anything during the attacks?

MASHBURN: My understanding is that he was using some Arabic terms during the attacks and that's one of the many reasons why the FBI is involved at this point in time.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you confirm that Nolen was confirmed for trying to convert employees?

MASHBURN: My understanding that the altercation earlier in the day had more to do with race than him trying to convert anyone and that he was basically saying he didn't like white people and had this altercation with our second victim regarding that.

Yes, ma'am?

(CROSSTALK)

MASHBURN: Hold on just a second.

Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The first report was that the knife came from the company. But you say he went home to retrieve a knife. Was it a company knife he had taken home?

MASHBURN: I do not believe that it was a company knife. I believe it was a knife that he had at home.

Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you elaborate on this original confrontation or altercation you just mentioned? MASHBURN: Basically, from my understanding, there was an altercation

about him not liking white people. There was some back-and-forth conversation with Mrs. Johnson and that led her to make the complaint with the H.R. department.

Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you talk more about and give us a description. Can you describe it? What was it? How big was the weapon? I think people are baffled that this could happen in the workplace.

MASHBURN: Well, sure. I have not seen pictures of the weapon at this point in time. I just know it was a large kitchen life.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say he's been very forth coming in talking to them, very cooperative, very detailed in his thoughts and everything. Could you please tell us what influenced him in the manner which he attacked these women?

MASHBURN: Well, certainly, I mean, obviously, there was some sort of infatuation with beheading. We know that's obvious from the Facebook posts. So the manner in which it was carried out seems to be related to his interest in killing someone in that way. But other than that, it seems to be an isolated incident with him with being triggered by his having been suspended earlier in the day.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there a court date? What's the time line that we're looking at?

MASHBURN: Mr. Nolen is still in the hospital, so with these charges he'll be -- once he's released from the hospital, he'll be arraigned on these charges. I'll be meeting with the family in the next few days. Once a decision is made to pursue the death penalty, there will be a document called a Bill of Particulars that will be filed and -- giving the defendant notice we will be seeking the death penalty, and then we will start the court process, a preliminary hearing conference. He will be assigned an attorney or he'll be given an opportunity to hire one. And then we have preliminary hearings and then ultimately a trial date will be set.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So that arraignment hearing, next week? This week? How soon will that be?

MASHBURN: It depends on when he's released from the hospital. So once he gets to jail, depending on what time of day -- if it's early enough in one day they can do arraignment, we'll do an arraignment right after lunch. If he's brought from the hospital late in the afternoon, he probably won't be arraigned until the following day after that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How much time lapsed between the time he was suspended from the office and actually returning back up to Vaughan Foods? MASHBURN: I'm not sure.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was he suspended or fired?

MASHBURN: My understanding is that he was suspended.

Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could you walk us through just the time line from the time he went in the door with the intent to attack someone? And how many people were at risk here? Was it just two in that area?

MASHBURN: No, there were many people surrounding that. There were multiple attempts by multiple people to stop this attack, so there will be, as we move through and re-interview some of the people who were around, then we may identify other people because we are aware that he did chase some people away with the knife, and so there could be further counts with those victims. There are men who were trying to get him away from the victims, both female victims, in this case. And so as he moves -- as he was attacking people, other people were trying to draw his attention away. So we'll just have to identify those people, re-interview, and we could always add those additional counts.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What was it that prevented him from killing the second victim?

MASHBURN: Mr. Vaughan.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did Mr. Vaughan get his rifle from inside the business or did he have to go outside in his car to get the rifle?

MASHBURN: I don't know that. My understanding is that he had it in the building.

Does anybody know?

I believe he had it with him in the building.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you discuss this suspect's injury? Where he was shot when he was shot by Mr. Vaughan and also is there anything that you can share with us that you've learned from hiss discussions where from where he is in the hospital. Does he remember? Is he saying he remembers it? Is he giving details? Or he doesn't know what happened?

MASHBURN: He has been able to give details. And he was shot once through the arm and into the abdomen.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were there three shots and one of them missed?

MASHBURN: Three shots and I believe two of them missed. That's the information I have at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You say he's been cooperative with police so far in their questioning? MASHBURN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you elaborate on that?

MASHBURN: At this point in time, I don't feel comfortable going into too much detail with our case. But suffice it to say, that will be part of the evidence presented. We anticipate that will be part of the evidence presented as a statement from him confessing to these events.

BERMAN: Watching a fascinating news conference out of Norman, Oklahoma, where the Cleveland County district attorney announced he will charge Alton Nolen with first-degree murder for the workplace beheading of a co-worker. This happened last week. It's raised a lot of eyebrows. The district attorney announcing he will charge him with first-degree murder, likely seek the death penalty.

Now, there's another key component to this. He said the FBI is investigating whether there are any links to any terror organizations between the suspect here. Why? Well, the district attorney said there was a clear infatuation with beheading that this man, Alton Nolen, had.

PEREIRA: He also converted to Islam.

BERMAN: He converting to Islam. And apparently, the district attorney said he was shouting phrases in Arabic during the incident that happened in a food processing plant.

I want to bring in Mary Ellen O'Toole, a former FBI senior profiler and special agent.

The state of Oklahoma doesn't have a terrorism statute. They can't charge him in Oklahoma with any terror incident. That would have to be a federal crime. The FBI is apparently looking at that. Based on your experience, when does someone looking at web sites with an infatuation about beheading, when does that become terrorism?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI SENIOR PROFILER & SPECIAL AGENT: Well, probably far less than one would think. I mean, in the United States, you can look at web sites that are horrible that we think no one should look at, but you have to right to do that, and most people who do will never act out violently. And that's the issue. Most people who look at those kinds of things, who are intrigued by them, even enjoy them, are not likely to act out violently. In this case, however, it was different.

PEREIRA: Mary Ellen, I want you to give us -- this is such a perfect time to have you with us because as a senior profiler, you've seen cases, I'm sure not quite like this one. But it sounds at first blush that this was a disgruntled guy who took great offense to being let go and to being complained about at the work site, the food processing plant called Vaughan Foods, got a knife, went back and then attacked two people, one of which was the person who originally filed the complaint against him. Give us some insight into this and then weave with us, if you can, to this connection to perhaps terrorism. O'TOOLE: It sounds like this is an individual who was having ongoing

problems at work and ultimately he was suspended. They've also used the "fired" word as well. But people that are like him often times fall into the category of what we call the injustice collector. Actually, the dangerous injustice collector. And these are individuals who go through life and they collect wrongs or perceived wrongs that have been done to them over time and they overreact. So when a co-worker doesn't laugh at a joke or a co-worker says, "I think that's inappropriate," most of us would shy away and go sit down at our desk and that would be the end of it. But if you have a dangerous injustice collector, these are people that will overreact, and that overreaction over time can include going back and imploding on the workplace that they feel has brought a lot of misery to their life. So you've got that faction.

But at the same time, you have someone who also seems fascinated by ISIS, fascinated by beheadings and that kind of violence, could have been influenced -- influential to him.

But the idea of acting out violently in this workplace situation did not just happen that day. Violence doesn't just all of a sudden crop in your head one day and you say, "Well, I'm going to handle my problems being violent." And the day before, you were absolutely a calm, peaceful, peace-loving person. Violent ideation and violent evolution began years before that. So you're comfortable to step over that line of violence and say, "I'm going to use violence in this case."

BERMAN: It's a sick fascination any way you slice it. There is a woman dead any way you slice it. And this man faces the death penalty likely any way you slice it. So a lot going on here.

Mary Ellen O'Toole, thanks for being with us. Appreciate it.

O'TOOLE: You're welcome.

PEREIRA: We'll take a short break. And when we come back, we'll revisit the ongoing troubles of the Secret Service. We have some guests talking about what they think is going on inside that troubled agency.

We'll be right back.

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PIERSON: We engaged with the United States Park Police in an effort to determine where and what direction the shots were fired on constitution avenue.

REP. TREY GOWDY, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Madam Director, Madam Director, you reached the conclusion that it was a vehicle backfiring as opposed to shots fired. This is the third time I've asked. Give me all the evidence to support that supervisor's conclusion that it was not shots fired despite all the contempt rain contemporaneous claims. And then tell me, why not invest the very minimal resources required to exhaustively search the White House?

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PEREIRA: @THISHOUR, Secret Service Director Julia Pierson is answering for the latest Secret Service slip-up, the White House fence jumper getting far deeper inside the White House than previously reported.

BERMAN: I want to bring back former Secret Service agent and instructor, Dan Bongino; and investigative journalist, Ronald Kessler. They join us.

Dan, I want to go back to what I was talking about before. Just how could it be that the story keeps on changing here? Is it willful deception on the part of the Secret Service?

BONGINO: I don't think so. I know most of the people over there in that shop. I don't think so. I think it's just an effort to get the story right. But in their sense of urgency to get it out immediately, I don't think they got it out accurately. And maybe they should hold onto the information and take a different P.R. strategy. But if it's a slow-roll strategy, hoping it will go away, they in for a lot of trouble.

PEREIRA: Ronald, I want to ask you, we heard Representative Cummings earlier on talking about this morale issue was talked about within the agency. You spoke about this yesterday with me on our air, and also addressing the culture problem within the agency.

RON KESSLER, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST & AUTHOR: Yeah, that is the key. And you can see why Julia appears as part of that culture and problem in the management, because When she was asked about the officer who heard the gunshots, reported them, and then the supervisor overruled her and said, no, no, it's not that, and she was afraid to push it further, she was afraid to criticize, Julia Pierson's response was, oh, we're going to have the office of professional responsibility look into this and we're going to re-interview her, as if it was an anomaly. Julia Pierson is from within the agency. She's a career employee and she knows very well the culture is, "you don't report problems," you certainly don't question the supervisor, and that is, in a nutshell, what's wrong with the Secret Service and why these problems are just going to get worse under Julia Pierson.

(CROSSTALK)

KESSLER: And the Secret Service takes security so lightly, as we've seen in some of these examples. But also in my book, I reveal that when she was chief of staff, Mark Sullivan, the director, diverted agents from protecting President Obama and his family even as they lifted off in Marine One to go and protect his own assistant in southern Maryland who had been harassed by a neighbor. She called the police, as she should have. The Secret Service has absolutely no legal authority to protect its own employees. And on top of that, the agents received confidential law enforcement information on this neighbor in violation of criminal law. There was no authority by the Secret Service. She was part of that and was certainly aware of it. And that's an example of how outrageous the Secret Service is when it comes to actually taking protection seriously.

BERMAN: Ronald Kessler, Dan Bongino, thanks so much for being with us.

We have a lot more questions that need to be answered. Some will happen behind closed doors when the session with Senate goes private.

PEREIRA: We want to turn to another story a lot of parents are concerned about. Doctors in Colorado are dealing with a frightening new illness. Children admitted to the hospital with severe respiratory illness have developed polio-like symptoms, muscle weakness in their shoulders, arms and hips.

BERMAN: Now the CDC is trying to figure out what is causing it and whether it's related to the enterovirus.

Very frightening.

Joining us from the CDC is Mark Pallansch, director of the Division of Viral Diseases.

What do you think is going on here?

MARK PALLANSCH, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF VIRAL DISEASES, CDC: Well, at this point, this is the main topic of our investigation, to identify this cluster of severe disease in Colorado. We're also trying to determine if similar occurrences are occurring nationwide.

PEREIRA: Do you think there's a connection with the enterovirus that we've been seeing spreading across some 40 states?

PALLANSCH: At this point, we don't know. That is part of the investigation.

BERMAN: What should you look for? I have two 7-year-old boys who occasionally dabble in asthma and have respiratory issues when they play sports. I know before, there was concerns about the polio symptoms, people say, if you have real trouble breathing, get to a doctor. Is that still the case here?

PALLANSCH: There are two different types of clinical disease. One is indeed the respiratory disease which still is occurring, which is related to children with asthma and wheezing. And, again, anyone -- any children that are having difficulty breathing, parents should indeed seek medical attention.

The second is the neurologic disease related to the muscle weakness that has been reported from Colorado. That is, at this point, something that is very early in the investigation looking at causes.

PEREIRA: While we have you, I was hoping maybe you could comment about a possible Ebola case in Texas. A patient has been admitted to an isolation unit. We know they're being tested. Any word on how that testing has resulted yet?

PALLANSCH: I have no information on that case. PEREIRA: All right. How are you feeling about the progress of these

cases that are coming to the United States? Can you comment on that?

PALLANSCH: So I am not in a position to comment on the cases that are being hospitalized in the U.S.

PEREIRA: All right. We appreciate you joining us and talking about the enterovirus.

Mark Pallansch is the director of CDC Division of Viral Diseases joining us from Atlanta today.

BERMAN: It's bad enough what was happening before with just the respiratory thing where these cases seem to be much more serious than just the common flu or the common breathing issues that people have --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Polio-like symptoms is cause for concern.

BERMAN: We'll watch it very carefully.

PEREIRA: And we're kind of early into flu season, too.

That's it for us @THISHOUR. Thanks for joining us. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And I'm John Berman.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right after this.

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