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Don Lemon Tonight
Secret Service Director Under Fire; Virginia Serial Killer?; Could ISIS Take Baghdad?; An ISIS Quagmire for Obama; ISIS Continues to Advance; Joel Osteen's Positive Messages
Aired September 30, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Nice to be with you, Don. I'm Alisyn Camerota.
Is there a serial killer in Virginia? A source tells CNN that DNA evidence links the suspect in that disappearance two weeks ago of college student Hannah Graham to the murder of a Virginia Tech student five years ago. Now police departments across the state are reopening their unsolved murder and missing persons cases. We have all of the latest developments for you.
LEMON: Also, in the line of fire, the embattled head of the Secret Service is grilled by Congress over the White House intruder. Should she keep her job is the question. We're going to talk to a former Secret Service agent who says morale is at an all-time low. He will explain that.
CAMEROTA: Could ISIS seize control of Baghdad? British fighter jets now taking part in the campaign to stop ISIS. We will ask our military experts why the airstrikes don't seem to be working.
LEMON: Also, from ISIS to Ebola to natural disasters, is the world suffering from problems of biblical proportions? I'm going to ask Pastor Joel Osteen, who offers a message of hope.
But we're going to begin tonight with a question that authorities in Virginia are trying to answer. Do they have a serial killer on their hands? A source tells CNN that DNA evidence links Jesse Matthew, the suspect under arrest in the missing college student Hannah Graham, to the death of Morgan Harrington, a Virginia Tech student, five years ago.
CAMEROTA: Now other cold cases are also being reopened.
CNN's Jean Casarez is in Virginia with the very latest.
Jean, it's incredible the ripple effect that the arrest of Jesse Matthew has had. Tell us the latest.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It really is. You know, he is being held on the kidnapping of Hannah Graham. But
CNN confirmed with law enforcement sources that DNA from Morgan Harrington matched unknown DNA from a 2005 rape victim up in Fairfax City, Virginia. That was then associated with Jesse Matthew.
So I think that was the alleged link right there that has begun this ripple effect. And so many women have gone missing in this state, I mean, too many. Some have gone missing and never been found. Others have been found murdered and they have been able to capture that foreign DNA that they now want to see has any resemblance at all to that of Matthew's.
CAMEROTA: Jean, tell us abut your interview today with the police chief there in Charlottesville.
CASAREZ: Well, you know, my first question was, what is the update? And he said, there is none. We can't find her. We can't find anything from her.
They know she had her cell phone with a pink case. We have seen the clothes that she's wearing that night. He doesn't know if she had a driver's license on her or money on her or a credit card on her. They don't know that. But they do know they haven't found any sight or sound of her. And they have searched everywhere in this state. They're continuing to broaden the 740 square miles of the county.
And they're really looking at Route 29. That is where so many of these women have gone missing.
CAMEROTA: They sure have. I know you spoke with the director of the Virginia Department of Forensic Science today. So what did he tell you about trying to piece some of this evidence together?
CASAREZ: I think newsworthy. First of all, he will not comment on this case or any of the other cases, but he's the director of the laboratory that is testing all of the DNA. He told me they are still doing forensic testing on the items collected from Jesse Matthew's car and his apartment.
That is a very, very sophisticated testing. And it takes time. That was his point, really, because we want all of these cases solved. I mean, is he responsible. Is he not responsible? But DNA testing takes time. You have mixtures, you have amounts that aren't able to be tested, you have good amounts. Sometimes, it is eaten up in the testing. Sometimes you repeat the test.
It's not something that just happens from one day to the next.
CAMEROTA: In other words, as we speak tonight, we don't know if there is a forensic link between Jesse Matthew and Hannah Anderson?
CASAREZ: We don't. We do not know that. They're still testing the forensics. He is being held only on kidnapping, which you don't have to have a forensic link for kidnapping.
CAMEROTA: OK. Jean Casarez, thanks so much for that update. Obviously, we will check back in with you.
So, let's dig deeper, Don, into all of those developments that we just talked about.
Joined by Kathy Reichs. She's a forensic anthropologist, and she's author of "Bones Never Lie," and Kimberly Priest Johnson, she's the defense attorney and former federal prosecutor.
Ladies, thanks so much for being here.
Kathy, I want to start with you.
According to Virginia State Police, there is this link, this forensic link between the suspect, who we have just been talking abut, Jesse Matthew, and Morgan Harrington. She's the 20-year-old Virginia Tech student who disappeared from a Metallica concert in 2009. Then her remains were found 100 days later.
After 100 days, what forensics could still be there at the crime scene?
KATHY REICHS, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, she was skeletonized, as I understand it. She was out in the elements for three months.
But things like fingernails could survive. I have seen skeletons come in with no flesh, but the nails are still there. There could be something under those nails. Hair survives a remarkably belong time. There could have been hair recovered.
Those are only possibilities. I'm only speculating. But that's the kind of thing that could have been recovered from her remains. At the time could, it would have meant nothing if they had no one to whom to compare it. Even if they had DNA, you have to have someone to whom to compare it.
CAMEROTA: Kathy, why wasn't any cause of death ever determined?
REICHS: If only bones remain, you can analyze damage to the bones. You can look for bullet entrance holes or exit. You can look at blunt-instrument trauma. You can look at sharp wound trauma. You can look at fracturing in a little bone in the neck which suggests strangulation.
If there is none of that present, then you don't have any evidence about what it is that caused the death. It could have been a blow to the belly. It could have been something that only impacted soft tissue. It could have been strangulation. In a very young person, the wings of the hyoid bone are still quite flexible. And your hyoid bone might not fracture even in strangulation.
CAMEROTA: Kimberly, I want to bring you in, because you believe the pattern of what police have presented so far points to that of a serial killer. Why?
KIMBERLY PRIEST JOHNSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I do. We don't know at this point what evidence prosecutors have linking
Matthew to Graham. What we do know is that he was the last person seen with her. What we are learning about Matthew and what is unfolding does not look good. We know back in 2002, he was at least accused of sexual assault. In 2005, he's been linked to kidnapping and sexual assault, now 2009, kidnapping, sexual assault and murder.
There is clearly a pattern. When we talk what is a serial killer, it's a person that kills two or more people over the span of a month, taking a break, a cooling off period, in between the murders. These people typically kill for some sort of psychological gratification, oftentimes simply for the thrill of the kill.
But they also have a common pattern in how they attempt or actually carry out their murders. And their victims are also oftentimes common. They have common characteristics. As we look at what is unfolding in this case, we see these young girls, ages of 18 to 20, all in the same area of Virginia. They look similar.
The circumstances where the girls are lost and maybe looking for help are similar. So there is lots of indicators here pointing to the fact that Matthew very well could be a serial killer.
CAMEROTA: Kimberly, I thought it was interesting in your notes that you say that serial killers are predominantly white males.
Is that because there are more white males or is there something else going on?
PRIEST JOHNSON: Yes, it is true there are more white male serial killers than black male serial killers.
More than 90 percent of serial killers are male. There are though a number of black serial killers. It is a common misperception that black males are not serial killers. Why are there more whites than males? There is really no clear answer to that, only speculation.
CAMEROTA: So, obviously, there are so many parents out there tonight whose daughters were missing or whose daughters were victims of unsolved murders.
Let's listen to what Morgan Harrington's mom has said about Hannah's disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL HARRINGTON, MOTHER OF MORGAN HARRINGTON: Both Hannah's going missing and Morgan's abduction happened around the same team of year, in the same town. Hannah was first seen that evening on 14th Street. Morgan's shirt was found a couple of weeks after her abduction on 15th Street in Grady. So there are a lot of similarities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Kimberly, are those similarities significant to you?
PRIEST JOHNSON: They are significant.
I have to tell you it breaks my heart to hear this mother. As a mom, I can't imagine the heartbreak and the mixture of emotion she must be feeling right now, once again having to relive what happened to her daughter.
CAMEROTA: Kathy, we have been waiting quite a while for police to come back with the forensic evidence that they found in Jesse Matthew's car or apartment. Does it normally take this long?
REICHS: Well it can. And they want to be absolutely sure that they're doing it according to proper protocol, because that evidence could turn out to be very, very crucial should a trial take place.
CAMEROTA: We know that foreign DNA was found at yet another crime scene in Montgomery County, where two young Virginia Tech students were killed in 2009.
How will law enforcement compare all of these samples. Is there one sort of database that they're using? How complicated is putting all these puzzle pieces together?
That's for Kathy.
REICHS: Well, it's going to depend on what kind of evidence they're looking at. There are different databases for different types of evidence, if they're using paint flakes, for example.
If they're using things like biological samples, what they're going to do is, they're going to look in his home or his car for any evidence that would tie him to one or more of these victims. Also, they're going to look at these victims if they have recovered the bodies, as is true in some cases and not others, and they're going to look for anything on those bodies that doesn't belong to them, that is not their biological material, and then do comparative samples back to see if they can tie that to the suspect.
CAMEROTA: They have their work cut out for them.
Kimberly Priest Johnson, Kathy Reichs, thanks so much for your expertise.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMEROTA: Great to talk to you both.
REICHS: Thank you.
LEMON: UP next, the head oft Secret Service grilled by Congress demanding to know how an intruder jumped the White House fence and got all the way into the East Room of the executive mansion. What's going on with the Secret Service? One former agent will tell us.
CAMEROTA: And is it possible that ISIS could seize control of Baghdad? And why don't the airstrikes seem to be slowing down their advances? We will get those answers. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.
A federal grand jury indicted Omar Gonzalez for jumping the White House fence and entering the main floor of the White House. He is charged with unlawfully entering a restricted building while carrying a weapon.
And earlier today, a House committee grilled the head of the Secret Service over the Gonzalez incident. Julia Pierson testified that the breach of security is unacceptable.
CAMEROTA: And Don, we have just learned...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIA PIERSON, DIRECTOR, SECRET SERVICE: ... was properly executed, and that's why I am conducting a robust investigation to ensure that we have a comprehensive review of what people were -- that I have the facts, all of the facts, so I can make an assessment of what the decisions were on that night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: And, Don, listen to this. We just learned late today of yet another violation of security protocol. An armed security contractor was allowed on an elevator with President Obama during a visit to the CDC in Atlanta two weeks ago.
The man said to be acting strangely, and when questioned by agents, they discovered he had a gun.
We are joined now by Daniel Bongino. He's a former Secret Service agent. His brother is currently an agent.
Don, how is it possible, that the -- I mean Dan -- that the president was on an elevator with an armed stranger?
DAN BONGINO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Yes, Alisyn, that is a severe breach of protocol.
These elevators are manifested like you would manifest an airliner. That's how secure they are. You have don't get on unless your name is on the list and someone checks. I don't know all the details behind this. But, from experience, I have to believe this was some kind of an off-the-record movement they made, and he slipped on.
There is no excuse for it. Again, there is no putting lipstick on these things. It was clearly a breach. But I have to believe it was some off-the-record movement here. It doesn't sound like it would a standard "baked into the Pierson" movement they had. That would never be part of a security plan.
LEMON: So, Dan, is it now with all of all -- of all times, we have -- considered what is going on around the world, we are at war, that tight security ever should be enforced around the president and the White House, no?
BONGINO: Absolutely, Don.
We had -- could have been an ISIS member take a social media picture of the White House and we don't know if it was or it wasn't. But the fact that ISIS seemed to think that was interesting should have dialed up the security antenna quite a bit.
I absolutely agree with you. The threat profile, the threat signature in the United States has changed significantly, whether you look at the tactical assaults, medical emergencies, chem-bio assaults. Everything has gotten more complicated. The sphere around the White House, the air picture, it's all gotten more complicated, especially post-9/11.
And I think the Secret Service needs some new upper-level management, some fresh blood.
LEMON: Dan, when did you retire?
BONGINO: In 2011.
LEMON: 2011. OK.
My question is, should we be surprised by this? I'm not sure we should even be surprised by it, because you remember 2009, the whole state dinner when the Salahis got into the state dinner?
BONGINO: Sure.
LEMON: We have video. These are the Salahis talking their way past a checkpoint, past a Secret Service agent into the first ring of the White House. And then they got into the second security checkpoint without being on a list.
This has been happening since the Obamas first entered the White House. Why hasn't anything changed? If you can into the White House, mingle with the president, then someone else one jumps the fence four years later, and they can get past the residence into the -- deep into the White House, why hasn't anything changed?
BONGINO: Well, Don, let me sum it up for you.
The Secret Service has two major problems right now. It's not a culture problem. The Secret Service has a White House staff problem, which is not partisan. They have had it a long time, decades. And they also have an upper-level management problem. There's a very few, a select group of upper-level managers that have been there a long time that, frankly I think have destroyed the agency.
They have agents moving around the country who are experienced, leaving experienced positions to fly around the country, because years ago, Secret Service agents moved a lot. There's no reason for it. Uniformed division morale is terrible.
When you have the White House staff and their social secretary pushing the uniformed division to get people into the White House quickly, this is the kind of thing that happens. These agents and these officers feel like if they stand up to the staff, they have absolutely no voice, Don.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I have been to the White House. The White House social secretary and staff, they are not there checking identification. It is Secret Service agents.
BONGINO: Don, when you are a uniformed division officer and you stop someone, and it gets back to the White House staff that you were responsible for a highly paid donor not getting in, I promise you it really stings badly. That's their career.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Is your job on the line though when you do something like that? If you stand up for something that's right, even if it is just a White House staff person, you're charged with keeping the president protected. Why should you even be concerned about what a social secretary or a White House staff person or an usher says?
BONGINO: Don, these are careers. These are men and women that have to put oatmeal on the table for their kids in the morning. These are jobs. This isn't just -- you know, I wish I was writing a novel here about the Secret Service.
This is real life. If you wind of on the staff black list here as one of the guys who speaks out as some kind of a whistle-blower, and you don't get promoted, you get all the terrible shifts at the White House and you can't take your kids to school, these are very real consequences. We don't have management willing to stick up to the staff and tell them, hey, listen, these guys are here for you, for your safety.
Then no wonder morale is in the tank. I have people call me all the time about this. This isn't a new problem.
LEMON: Did you watch the hearings today on Capitol Hill?
BONGINO: I did from your studio.
LEMON: What did you make of what Darrell Issa -- let's listen to him and then we will talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The White House its supposed to be one of America's most secure facilities, and in fact, one of the world's most secure facilities. So how on earth did it happen?
REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D), MASSACHUSETTS: This is -- the Secret Service against one individual with mental illness. And you lost. And you lost. And you had three shots at this guy. REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: I wonder if there is a fitness
problem here, chasing this gentleman who could not capture him. All six of them in this picture could not capture him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A fitness problem, she's basically saying they're out of shape, they're fat or -- listen, is there legitimate concern by Democratic and Republican representatives or in your estimation is this grandstanding?
BONGINO: No, I thought they both -- well, it's always grandstanding. Every congressional committee has got grandstanding.
But I thought both sides did a decent job. I think Elijah Cummings asked some great questions. I thought Darrell Issa and Jason Chaffetz did a well.
Yes, there is a fitness problem. There's no question about it. If you can't take a man down who is charging into the White House, then we have a very serious problem. I think the scaling of certain standards has really hurt the Secret Service badly.
Remember, Don, bad guys don't care about scales, weighted for age or sex or whatever it may be. They don't care. I know a lot of women in the Secret Service that could have taken care of that guy, no problem. I know a lot of men that couldn't. Bottom line is the standards should be the standards no matter what.
The president's life is at stake. This is not a partisan issue.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. All right. You said that man should have been taken down. When the man jumped the fence, should he have been taken down and I mean taken down by being shot, shot at?
BONGINO: No.
I did not see a use of deadly force situation there. The Secret Service does not shoot trespassers. The man had no weapons in his hands.
LEMON: But this is not just a trespasser. This is the leader of the free world and his family there, someone who is wielding a knife, wielding a weapon who makes it deep into the White House, into the East Room. This isn't just a trespasser.
BONGINO: Well, Don, someone is going to have to take that up with Congress then, because the Secret Service are just GS-1811 federal agents, like any other federal agent. They have the same use of force guidelines.
Remember, when Miriam Carey drove her car on the vehicle trap on the south grounds and was shot by Capitol Police later on, there was an uproar that there was too much force. It's easy for us to chalk talk this now. But the bottom line is, we had a psychopathological individual with a severe mental disorder who you would have -- are you willing to put a bullet in his head for trespassing?
That's all he did. Yes, it's the White House. But unless he has a gun in his hand, vocalizes threat, there's some printing on his garment showing a weapon, he's got a suicide vest, we don't shoot trespassers. WE take them down. The security plan failed. There's no question. There's no apologies for that.
The nonlethal options, the dog, a number of the equipment pieces that we have to use that are nonlethal failed as well. But we don't shoot trespassers on the White House grounds. We just don't do it.
LEMON: All right, Dan Bongino, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us here tonight.
BONGINO: Thanks.
CAMEROTA: Another top story tonight, federal health officials confirmed today that a patient being treated at a Dallas hospital has been diagnosed with Ebola. The man returned from Liberia about 10 days ago, but did not exhibit any symptoms at that time. But when he became ill, he was transported to the hospital by ambulance.
LEMON: And new information is that a Dallas city official confirms tonight that the ambulance was in use for two days afterwards. A spokesman said that the paramedics followed proper guidelines in decontaminating the ambulance to avoid contaminating additional patients. But it is disturbing when you think about that.
CAMEROTA: Troubling.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes, it is.
Coming up, the British join the fight against ISIS. But our next guest says it looks like things are going to get worse with the terror group before they get better. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Barack Obama won the presidential election of 2008 in part by promising to get the country out of two wars. Six years later, the U.S. find itself involved in military action against ISIS, a terror group that most Americans didn't even know existed, not until recently.
CAMEROTA: Our next guest is already calling this a quagmire.
Joining us is Frank Rich. He's writer at large for "New York" magazine.
Frank, thanks so much for being here.
FRANK RICH, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": Thanks for having me. CAMEROTA: We have only been fighting ISIS, the U.S., for six weeks.
How can it be a quagmire?
RICH: Well, it's not yet, but it has all the inklings of becoming one, because essentially it's Groundhog Day. We are back where we were, in the middle of a Sunni-Shia civil war.
When we went in the previous time, under President Bush, most Americans didn't even know about it. It's not clear the president knew about it. This time, we know. And I don't know how this ends well for America. I don't know what we can do that can get us out of there cleanly with just achieving this one mission of taking out these very virulent group of terrorists.
LEMON: If you listen to the military experts, the ones that we have had on and pretty much all of them say, eventually, there's going to have to be boots on the ground. And those will quite possibly be American. Those are, you know, troops, not just boots. Those are people.
RICH: Absolutely. First, we do have boots on the ground. We call them special advisers. And whatever. But the fact is, how do you do that with a country that won't support it? If we've learned anything from the last Iraq war, the previous iteration of this one, or if I may invoke it from Vietnam. We know that the country, America, if they're not behind sending troops there, it's -- we're not going to do. We're not going to do it in a full-throttle way that supposedly, or theoretically, would win this thing.
And also, we can't do it, as President Obama has repeatedly said, if there isn't a host government in Iraq that is supported by its own people. Two administrations, two American administrations, supported this bankrupt Maliki government. Now we have a new one. Maybe it will be better but maybe not. We don't know. And so we look as if we're injecting ourselves in a civil war without coming down on the side of right.
CAMEROTA: At the moment the U.S. population is behind the air strikes.
RICH: Yes.
CAMEROTA: The latest public opinion poll, CNN poll shows that 73 percent of Americans support the air strike. Those who don't support it think they don't think they go far. So at the moment, the president's strategy is working for the American people. But it just might not be effective.
RICH: Well, it may not be effective. In fact, it might be counterproductive. We don't know. We don't really -- partially because we don't have enough people on the ground. We don't really know what's going on, in Syria for instance. But what you say about the polls is very true. It's a big swing, but it's about air strikes. It's about doing it from above; it's about drones.
The moment that these boots on the grounds, or as you said, these people on the ground should start coming back, God forbid, in body bags, I don't think numbers are going to hold up. I think it's, you know, an inch deep, the support for now. But yes, of course, we all support going in and targeting these terrorists and taking them out.
LEMON: You address those numbers. You address that poll, in "New York" magazine. You say, "Now that we're bombing Syria, no one really knows exactly what is happening in the fog of war. We are still in the hazy, wishful thinking 'coalition of the willing'/'shock and awe' phase of that campaign."
Pretty soon the reality is going to set in, right?
RICH: Well, it did last time. And you know, in fact, it's a little bit reminiscent of what happened at the beginning of the war in Iraq, where everyone was watching on TV the sort of fireworks display. And remember, Saddam was almost immediately taken out. Turned out to be false. And oh, this is a cakewalk, as many people predicted both in the administration and beyond it.
LEMON: Six weeks or so?
RICH: Yes. We'd be home, you know. The war would be over. Mission would be accomplished.
So we're in that phase now, although even though now it doesn't have the kind of support it did when the Iraq war began in 2003, because people are all so disillusioned.
LEMON: Do you think we should have withdrawn troops from Iraq? I know that there -- you know, there is safety.
RICH: I think that we -- we should have, because I don't know what point was -- would be made by keeping us in the middle of this. Particularly since, as we now know and should have known earlier, the Iraqi army is essentially worthless. It's a little harsh, but the fact is, it melted away. And this is an army we'd poured billions of dollars into and trained for years. And if they fade away, where does that leave...?
LEMON: The argument has been made that we may not be here with ISIS and Khorasan and other terrorist groups, had we kept some troops in Iraq and at least tried to continue to make a deal with the Iraqi government to keep them safe.
RICH: I don't believe it. And the reason is that the Maliki government had no trust of its own people. So this ISIS is a reaction in part to Maliki. So we made a deal with him to keep our troops there. It's -- the underlying domestic problem of Iraq would have remained unresolved, because he didn't have the trust of his own opponents within Iraq, who rallied around ISIS.
CAMEROTA: Up front, do you think the president has made the case that there is an imminent threat to the United States? Do you see the evidence that ISIS is presenting this imminent threat?
Because I mean, you keep invoking President Bush. And he had to make the case to Congress. Colin Powell went in front of the U.N. Security Council. It ended up being faulty evidence. But they tried to make the case. What has President Obama made the case in terms of it being an imminent threat?
RICH: I don't think the case has been made. However, there is a difference in that he's not starting a war where he expects ground troops. So that allows him to skirt by.
But, you know, the fact is that we don't have the evidence. It's not clear at all. And if we were to widen this war, he'd have to produce the evidence. If he were actually to go to Congress and ask for debate, which did happen with Bush, he'd have to produce the evidence. Right now, I don't know. I don't think anyone knows.
LEMON: I know we've gone a little long, but I want to change subjects. And real quickly if you can give me an answer. You have been very outspoken when it comes to what's happening in Ferguson, Missouri. You believe that now that most of the cameras -- CNN is still there. But much of the media has gone. That our attention is away from it. And maybe Americans are not really caring about it. And much of it has been, is being covered by people who are there, and they're using social media as their platform.
RICH: Well, I think that's great. I think that, you know, we learned and, certainly, you were on the ground there yourself. I mean, we learned from Ferguson what it means to have on-the-ground reporting that's thorough. And, if it takes, if on-the-ground reporting leaves, from the established news organizations, then we need Twitter, social media to call attention to what's going on.
I do think, beyond what's going on on the ground with Ferguson, a lot of news organizations have been trying to deal with bigger issues about inequities in terms of police forces; local governments that -- where minorities aren't represented and the rest of it.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you.
CAMEROTA: Frank, thanks for being with us. Great to see you.
Coming up, the coalition against ISIS continues to grow, with British air strikes hitting some targets in Iraq today. But it does not seem as if ISIS has been slowed down as they advance towards the Turkish border. More on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMEROTA: ISIS closing in on the Syrian Kurdish city of Kobani, which sits near the border with Turkey. This comes as the U.K. officially joins the fight. British air strikes hit targets in northwestern Iraq today. But why don't the air strikes seem to be slowing down is?
LEMON: Let's try to answer that question and more now with Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst and former U.S. military attache in Syria joins us. And also Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN military analyst and CEO of Tiger Swan and a retired Delta Force commander. Colonel Reese, you look at the map of the territory, right, before
ISIS, controlled by ISIS, before this bombing campaign started. You look at it afterwards. There's not a big difference.
So the question is: Are the bombings working?
LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Don, the bombings are working. They are slowing ISIS down. But if you look at the map, what ISIS is doing is, and what we want the bombers to do is change their tactics. So they've moved away from what they call the line of -- standard lines of communications, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) phrase. And they've moved out. They've separated and opened up their formation some from regular military operations. So it's kind of a give and take right now.
LEMON: Effective. Do you think it's effective? So you think it's effective?
LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I do. It has -- it has stopped the momentum; it hasn't completely stopped their movement.
CAMEROTA: What hasn't it pushed them back? Why does the map look virtually identical?
FRANCONA: Air was never meant to push them back; air was meant to stop them, and the ground forces have to push them back. The air can't retake territory. You need ground forces to do that.
And you see these two army installations were overrun by ISIS the other day. Technically, that wasn't an advance. When they came down the Euphrates Valley they bypassed a lot of these military installations, trying to get closer to Baghdad, knowing that they could go back later and clean it up. And that's what we're seeing these last couple of days, cleaning up these pockets of resistance that are left.
REESE: If the bombings had not happened, ISIS would already be, probably, fighting in Baghdad.
LEMON: Are we clearing a path for the Free Syrian Army? Is that what the air strikes -- isn't it supposed to be clearing a path for the fighters on the ground, and that's not happening, is it?
REESE: I don't know if clearing a path is the right term. It is just disrupting and depredating ISIS to allow us to get some type of ground force in to engage.
LEMON: But that ground force as of now would be Syrian fighters. Because no one is committing ground forces.
FRANCONA: It really doesn't exist. I mean, the Free Syrian Army really is back on its heels. They've been dealt a severe blow by both ISIS and the Syrian regime forces.
So in Iraq we could see how this could happen. We want the Iraqi army to stand up and move, retake territory. The Peshmerga doing that. That's on the table. That looks like it could work given time.
Syria, I think we are years away from a solution in Syria. I mean, the numbers just don't play out.
CAMEROTA: So on Thursday, the Turkish parliament is voting as to whether or not they should get involved. That sounds like it would be a game changer.
REESE: That could be a great game changer. The Turks have got a great military. If -- now if you have the Turks here, we start moving the Iraqis, and that's what we need to be doing, is getting the Iraqis moving and moving west. Now what we start to do is start collapsing on ISIS. It really could be...
LEMON: Let's be real. So how long before ground troops go in?
FRANCONA: Well, it depends. If the Turks authorize us on Thursday, we could see them very shortly. The Turks are already on the border. There's a Turkish armored unit watching what's going on in Kobani. If they got the order, they could move almost immediately.
There's other things that Turks could do. They could allow us access to their air bases. That cuts down the flight time from the air base to the target into minutes rather than hours.
LEMON: The coalition forces are going to say OK. You know, the coalition of the willing said, we're going to commit our people. And our people are going to put their lives on the line. But America is not going to do it?
REESE: No, I don't. I mean, at the end of the day, remember, the bombings were to disrupt ISIS in Syria, their safe haven. Now with, you know, those fighters moving into Iraq, we have to get the Iraqi army. We've got to get the advisers out there. Moving with them. And starting to close.
CAMEROTA: And it sounds like we need Turkey to cooperate. And so, how do you think this is going to go on Thursday?
FRANCONA: From what I'm hearing and I guess -- and I'm not a Turkish parliamentary expert. But everybody says, everyone has the numbers to get this approved. So, we're expecting to see that. And I think the -- the resolution that they're looking for is very specific to Syria.
And I don't think we need the Turks in Iraq. I think the ground portion of the Iraqi thing will play itself out. It's Syria that's the problem.
LEMON: How big of a concern, even though you said you felt better about Iraq. Is that what you're saying? The Baghdad airport, is that a concern?
FRANCONA: Baghdad airport is a big problem, because it's on the west side of the city. It's where ISIS is advancing. And they're actually south of the airport now. That airport is the key to us getting our people in and out of there. If we had to evacuate the embassy, the airport is where they would go, they would do it from. So the airport being at risk, that's a real problem.
And I assume that we've got some -- some way of reinforcing the unit there. There's Apaches there; there's some Army Special Forces there.
CAMEROTA: Colonel, thanks so much. Always great to get your expertise.
FRANCONA: Thanks.
LEMON: When we come right back, he is a pastor of the single largest Christian church in the country. Simply put, when Joel Osteen speaks about religion, millions of people listen. Joel Osteen will be here next.
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LEMON: In a time of violence and turbulence around the world, people often look to religion for answers. Others outright blame religion for the unrest.
So joining us now is Joel Osteen. He's the pastor of Lakewood Church, one of America's largest and fastest growing churches. He is the author of "You Can, You Will: Eight Undeniable Qualities of a Winner." And Monday marked the launch of Joel Osteen Radio on Sirius XM.
How are you?
JOEL OSTEEN, PASTOR, LAKEWOOD CHURCH: Hey, Don.
LEMON: It's good to see you. We've known each other for, like, ten years now.
OSTEEN: I know. Back in Chicago.
LEMON: Way back from Chicago. So you always start with something every Sunday. This is my Bible and I am what it says I am.
OSTEEN: That's right.
LEMON: How does it go?
OSTEEN: I am what it says I am. I have what it says I have. I can do what it says I can do.
LEMON: ... what it says I can do.
OSTEEN: Today I'll be taught the word of God. I boldly confess. My mind is alert. My heart is receptive. I'll never be the same in Jesus' name.
LEMON: Amen. Right? The church says, "Amen."
OSTEEN: That's right.
LEMON: Your message is so positive. You started -- your dad started speaking in a small church. Now you're filling Yankee Stadium; 50,000 people in June. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: God doesn't want us to be at the same place next year as we are right now. He wants us to move forward. Come up higher. Let me just declare it right now. 2014 is going to be your best year so far. You're going to see God's goodness in new ways.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: When you look at that, first of all, can you believe that you're doing that?
OSTEEN: No. It's amazing. It's part of our message that God can take you places you never dreamed. And, you know, I worked 17 years behind the scenes; never thought I'd be a minister. I worked for my father, the pastor. They had the church there. You know, I knew I was supposed to when my dad died.
LEMON: How do you teach such a positive message and every Sunday -- or every time you speak is such a positive message when you have the unrest around the world: Syria, Iraq, Ebola, all of this? How does that -- how does that resonate?
OSTEEN: You know, I think, Don, that's when it resonates more than ever. Because there are so many negative things pulling us down in life or trying to pull us down. And, you know, we've got to come back and believe that God has got us in the palm of his hand. You know, the scripture says, we would have difficulties, but to be of good cheer, be of good joy and have joy.
And so my message is that God is in control. And you get a -- you get, not just -- you get to choose each day how you're going to live it, in faith or fear.
LEMON: I'm going to read something. This is from the son of Billy Graham. He wrote this on his website recently, the Rev. Franklin Graham said -- he's the president of the Graham Evangelical Association.
He said, "Jesus warned his disciples in Matthew 24, when they asked him about the signs of the end of the age, that he -- he said there would be wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, and pestilence. As I read the news I can't help but wonder if we are in the last hours before our Lord Jesus Christ returns to rescue his church and God pours out his wrath on the world for the rejection of his son."
Do you agree? Do you think the end times are upon us?
OSTEEN: Well, you know, Franklin, Reverend Graham, he's a friend of mine, as well. And you know what? I'd have to agree that what you see -- what you see the scripture says is starting to happen today. And so I don't know if the end times means, you know, a year or 1,000 years. I don't know. But I believe that certainly the Bible prophecy is coming to truth. LEMON: Religion has been in the news a lot lately. Radicalism,
really. When we talk about ISIS, many have questioned whether Islam is a religion of peace, or is one of war or is it one of violence. Do you have -- where do you stand on that?
OSTEEN: You know, Don, I think there are extremists in a lot of religions. I mean, in all religions. So I don't know. I mean, the Muslim people that I know are not -- are not violent. So I think it's not. Personally, I think that, you know there are extremists in every religion.
LEMON: Yes, OK. Let's move on and talk about the book. All right? The book is called "You Can, You Will." And it's eight principles of, really, eight principles, of almost like highly effective people, right? It's a very positive. What's the difference? I want to read a quote to you that resonates to me. But what's the difference between, you, you think, and a motivational speaker or Tony Robbins or someone like that?
OSTEEN: You know, I think, well, Tony is a friend. And if somebody -- you know, they do great work. I think mine is based out of the scripture. I come from the point of view that God empowers you and equips you and puts the gift and talents on the inside. So I come through it, you know, from a -- from a place of faith.
LEMON: OK. From the scriptures.
OSTEEN: Here's one that resonates for me. All right? It says, "If you're going to become the winner that you were created to be, you need to have a boldness. The second quality of a winner is you run your race the way you want to run it. You can't be insecure. You can't worry about what everyone thinks. You can't try to keep everyone happy. If you change with every criticism and play up to people, trying to win their favor, you'll go through life letting people manipulate you and pressure you into their boxes."
I live my life like that every day.
OSTEEN: Yes.
LEMON: And that's -- I think, more people than not are people pleasers. They want to please other people around them rather than themselves.
OSTEEN: It really is. It's an important. It's an important principle. And I think we all face it. We want to, I think down deep most of us want to please people. Please our parents. Please others.
But, you know, I faced it, Don, in my on life when my dad went to be with the Lord in 1999, when he died. There were 6,000 at the church. When I stepped up to minister, I thought, "Well, I've got to be like my father. They're waiting -- he's been there for 40 years." And I tried to preach my dad's sermons, tried to be like my dad.
The problem was I wasn't like my father. I mean, I was different. More low key. My dad came from a Southern Baptist background, more fiery. And at one point, about six months in, I realized, "OK, you know what? I'm going to -- I'm going to step into my own role. I'm more of an encourager." That's when it began to grow.
LEMON: You had to do it. Like there was no -- really no other choice. I mean, you could not have done it. You do that. Not everybody gets to the point where you either sink or swim. You walk to that edge, and either you go over or you just stand there. Not everyone gets there.
OSTEEN: Yes. I think that was a destiny moment. There are certain -- certain times in life where you have these moments where you either move forward or you can get stuck. And it doesn't mean you won't have a good life, but you may not reach the fullness of your destiny.
And I knew then. Every voice told me, "Joel, you can't get up there and minister. You haven't been to seminary. You don't have the training." I'd only ministered one time. But I knew down in here I was supposed to do it. And I took that step of faith. And never dreaming that it would grow. We just hoped we could maintain what my parents had built. But that was 15 years ago, and you know, I wake up every day and I'm amazed.
LEMON: The book is called "You Can, You Will." And it's Joel Osteen. "Eight Undeniable Qualities of a Winner."
It's good to see you.
OSTEEN: Hey, Don. God bless. Great to see you.
LEMON: Good luck on the radio. I'll come on and talk to you.
OSTEEN: I'd love to have you.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.
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LEMON: That is it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. "AC 360" starts right now.
