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Liberian Official: Patient Denied Ebola Contact; Ferguson Grand Jury Under Investigation

Aired October 02, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here's the news that broke while we were listening to them. We were discussing before. Ford Voxx, let me just bring you in physician and journalist and Elizabeth Cohen who was recently in Liberia joining us from Dallas.

Here's the news that just broke. While we were listening to that and we were discussing, Elizabeth Cohen, the fact that when one leaves now these Western African countries, i.e. Liberia you're screened multiple times.

And so this Liberian airport authority had said, listen, if this guy lied at all in the three layers of screening that they would prosecute. Now we are getting confirmation from the Liberian airport authority that he answered no. Let me be specific.

He answered no to questions about whether he had cared for an Ebola patient, which we know he had, according to our reporting, according to community members we're talking to in Liberia or touched the body of someone who died in an area affected by Ebola. Therefore, let me just cut through it, it appears he lied, Elizabeth Cohen.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you about my experience, Brooke. So when I left the Monrovia Airport, I left one week after Duncan left. You're handed this form. You have to fill it out. There are two questions on that form.

Did you stay in a house or have other casual contact with an Ebola patient and the one that's probably even more relevant here, have you taken care of an Ebola patient or come into contact with the bodily fluids of an Ebola patient.

If so he said yes to those questions, they would have said, you have to wait 21 days until you leave the country. It appears from the reporting that you're talking about that he said no to those questions.

That's obviously -- that's a big problem. I talked to public health folks about this. I said, look, public health only works if people tell the truth.

BALDWIN: It's the honor system, right?

COHEN: That's a great way of putting it. It's the honor system. What's not the honor system, Brooke, is your temperature, but in this case he was asymptomatic and I've been saying this from the very beginning to folks at the CDC and elsewhere.

You're going to get someone that will hop on a plane who was infected a couple days before and they're going to be asymptomatic. And they are going to lie, and then you're really in a pickle. And it has come to past. It appears it has come to past.

BALDWIN: So let's talk about this pickle, Dr. Voxx. Because, listen, it is the honor system. He didn't have a temperature apparently when he leaving Liberia. He showed symptoms sometime later when he was in Dallas. How are airports, airlines supposed to handle this?

DR. FORD VOX, PHYSICIAN/JOURNALIST: That's right. I guess to give him potentially the benefit of the doubt since this is second hand someone saying what he knew. I have seen potentially in other reports he may have thought it was a pregnancy related illness.

This woman who did suffer from Ebola and died from Ebola was pregnant at the time. When they were attempting to take her into care there in Liberia, we're being told by another outlet and I don't know if CNN may have its own information that he may have thought that perhaps it wasn't Ebola related.

I think that does potentially point to a problem with surveillance screening itself. It's asking specifically about Ebola. It should ask have you had contact with anyone with Ebola-like symptoms. Describe those symptoms in black and white. That can be followed up on by someone who knows what they're doing in the airport.

BALDWIN: I would love to give the benefit of the doubt as well, but just reading our own reporting from a community member with whom he was living in this town outside of Monrovia saying not only was he living with but taking care of this person who was suffering from Ebola.

Quickly, Dr. Gupta, you've been standing by. You were also in West Africa a couple months ago. My question to you is this. We've been hearing from Louise, this partner who Anderson Cooper talked to earlier today staying with and sharing the same bed with patient now.

What happens to the sheets? The towels? You know, those kinds of materials. The waste from this apartment. What happens to that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you what happens typically in a hospital situation and in many ways he was in a medical care sort of situation. Should have been in a hospital, but he was in this apartment.

What they would do is they'd bring in these bio-containment bags. They would take all those things that could potentially have been contaminated, remove them and this is all done, you know, under pretty strictly coordinated procedure so as not to infect anybody and then they burn it.

Incineration is the most effective, I would say, way of making sure you get rid of the Ebola virus. I can tell you in Guinea, for example, where I was, they would have these fields where they would set up these sort of rudimentary Ebola hospital areas.

When they were done in that particular area, it was scorched earth. They would just burn everything to the ground because that's the most effective way to do it. So that may be what's happening here as well. We did hear as you heard, Brooke, that they had a hard time finding a contractor who would come in and do this work.

BALDWIN: Can you blame them?

GUPTA: Well, you know, it's the reality now so they're going to have to -- some of this is anticipating these sorts of things and having a plan in place opposed to calling the day of saying by the way, we got some potentially contaminated sheets with Ebola and can you send somebody over?

It's going to need to be a little bit more regimented and coordinated than that. Again, we talk about having had months to prepare. There's probably going to need to be services in various cities that can do this sort of work.

BALDWIN: Dr. Gupta, Dr. Vox, Elizabeth, thank you all very much. We're going to stay on this because coming up next, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation actually recently announced this massive donation, $50 million to help fight the Ebola virus.

So what is this money being used for and how has there been any progress is progress? We'll talk to the CEO of the foundation next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. I want to stay on this Ebola story here. "The New York Times" today reporting that the U.S. Health and Human Services Department is working with multiple pharmaceutical companies to up production of the experimental drug, ZMapp.

This is what these two Americans took to get better from the virus. Remember they had come back and they are A-OK so the Gates Foundation, the charity started by Microsoft founder, Bill Gates and his wife also contributing towards ZMapp production to the tune of $50 million.

Joining me now is the foundation CEO, Sue Desmond-Hellman. Sue, welcome.

SUE DESMOND-HELLMAN, CEO, GATES FOUNDATION: Thank you.

BALDWIN: So as I mentioned, 50 million from this foundation. Tell me exactly where that money will go.

HELLMANN: We heard from many in early September that this epidemic was becoming a true crisis and so when Bill and Melinda agreed to set aside $50 million first and foremost we wanted funds to go quickly and flexibly to partners working on the ground.

So within 48 hours we moved money to WHO, to UNICEF to CDC and the Red Cross for frontline healthcare workers, personal protection, supplies need to patients and things that were needed to monitor the course of the epidemic, isolate contacts and provide for safe burials.

So our initial money up to $50 million went quickly for those frontline efforts. We also have funded as you mentioned efforts in collaboration with other charities and with companies to start to try to accelerate vaccines and therapeutics.

That are research and development part of this as well as other epidemic control approaches in neighboring countries like Nigeria and very importantly in Senegal.

BALDWIN: So let's talk about ZMapp because listen, the world needs this vaccine and now that it's, you know, here in the U.S. This is really of utmost importance and just reading in the paper this morning, it says that Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is investing in production specifically in animal cells, which will allow four more vaccines, but it will take more time. Why opt that route?

HELLMAN: Well, a couple things that are very important. There are two very important approaches on tackling the virus. One is a vaccine and there are efforts to accelerate vaccine development that are being supported by the federal government and others.

The vaccine is meant to be preventive therapy especially for healthcare workers, but it's prophylactic or preventive. The second way of thinking about this is the antibodies like ZMapp or other therapeutics. Once you are sick, can you be treated?

So ZMapp, the therapy that was tried in the American healthcare workers and others is an experimental therapy that's been produced so far in tobacco plants using the science of biotechnology. We and others are trying to help. Can we go faster and more efficiently in tobacco?

But in addition, an alternative to tobacco would be using mammalian cells, cells that are more like us as humans and so in parallel we're interested in helping efforts to accelerate any human cell efforts and all of this is focused on a very singular thing, which is to not be limited by funds or supply so that this route of potential therapy can be tested and used for patients.

BALDWIN: Right. And then comes once those are created, who gets it? Who is at the front of the line? That is for the next conversation. Sue Desmond-Hellman with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, thank you so much for your time. I truly appreciate it.

Now to this, a tweet, a single tweet concerning the controversial police shooting death of Ferguson, Missouri teenager, Michael Brown, has sparked an investigation into the grand jury that is deciding whether to indict Police Officer Darren Wilson.

This tweet came from a Missouri woman's account, "I know someone sitting on the grand jury of this case. There isn't enough at this point to warrant an arrest." The grand jurors are supposed to keep their deliberations secret until a decision is made.

So now the prosecuting attorney's office is investigating whether someone on the grand jury leaked that information if they were talking. CNN's Sara Sidner found and actually spoke to the woman from whose Twitter account that tweet was sent. Sara, what did she say?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting. Because that account has been taken down. So have some of the other accounts that she tweeted to. Those also no longer online.

We ended up finding her and knocking on her door and let me let you listen to what she said about this tweet that sparked more controversy in a town already dealing with tension.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: Was that your account that the tweet was sent from?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. It was my account but I haven't used it so I'm not sure if someone hacked into it. It had been hacked before. Sending out a bunch of spam mails or whatever they call it and so I quit using it because this is silly.

SIDNER: Did you know someone, though, on the grand jury?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I didn't.

SIDNER: Have you talked to the prosecuting attorney's office?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I left a message with his assistant. I'm not sure what the name is. When I called, I got the voice mail.

SIDNER: Have they contacted you and said anything to you and told you how important this is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No, they haven't.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: So you heard her there that she hadn't heard from the prosecuting attorney's office, which is investigating this case. If what she said is true that she doesn't know anybody on that grand jury and that her particular Twitter account was hacked into, then hopefully it means that the grand jury still intact and they can go forward.

We do understand the grand jury still has plenty to look at and we don't expect a decision until potentially mid-November -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sara Sidner, thank you so much for tracking her down. We appreciate it. Lots to talk about here with CNN legal analyst, Sunny Hostin and Danny Cevallos. Let's get to it.

It's one thing if this is in fact happened that this grand juror is talking, but the bigger takeaway to me is that the takeaway for the grand juror is that there's not enough on this officer. SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that certainly is a big takeaway. It's also striking to me that our Sara Sidner could find the woman, but the prosecuting attorney hasn't found her yet. That means in my view it's not really being investigated and taken seriously as it should be because grand juries are secret.

But to your point about their not being enough, that is just so shocking to me. I think for once Danny will agree with me. Grand jury proceedings are the prosecutor's playground. You can prosecute or indict almost anyone because the standard is just probable cause. It's more likely than not.

What we have learned at CNN after interviewing so many people that there are a bunch of people that say one thing and there are a bunch of people that say another. Some folks say that Mike Brown's hands were up. Some folks say no, he charged the officer.

When you have that kind of evidence that doesn't agree, then that is ripe for a trial. Ripe for an indictment. So the suggestion that there isn't enough is just remarkable. This is not a case that needed to even go in front of the grand jury. This is a case that a prosecutor just charges.

BALDWIN: And that officer testified, which we were shocked by --

HOSTIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: But do you agree?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I wasn't so shocked that he testified, but Sunny's absolutely right. When it comes to grand jury procedure, she's absolutely right. It's the prosecution's show. There's no cross-examination, the standard is much lower than that at an actual criminal trial. But the other part that I think we need to really incorporate is how believable was this tweet to begin with?

That's the big question. It's very easy to indict. Is it really that surprising that someone might try to get a juror off that grand jury? What's interesting to me is, what did they know about that juror that made them decide, this is the kind of guy I don't want on the jury?

BALDWIN: What if they do determine that this particular grand juror was speaking, would they have to go back to scratch or would they yank that person and replace him?

HOSTIN: I think you've got to go back to the very beginning. The bottom line is, the grand jury process is sacred and I think if this is true, then it's tainted. And you have to either scrap the entire grand jury and go with the new one or do what most prosecutors do in a case like this, have the guts to charge the case. Charge it yourself. That's what prosecutors do most of the time.

BALDWIN: Final thoughts, sir?

CEVALLOS: I don't think the rules provide for scrapping the entire grand jury right away. I think you can dismiss this juror and add a new juror, but he can be prosecuted if that is the case. It's a class a misdemeanor if you release evidence that you've talked about in the grand jury.

BALDWIN: How do you add a new juror when everyone else has heard all of the evidence?

CEVALLOS: I don't know. I didn't write the rules. I have no idea how you do that. That's their problem.

BALDWIN: We shall see. Sunny and Danny, thank you both very much. I really appreciate it.

Coming up next, before we go, Anthony Bourdain joins me live about whether he worries about traveling amid the Ebola outbreak. And also this weekend, we get to see food, culture and fascinating conversation from the Bronx. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: He takes you far and wide to the food and culture of the world's most remote or misunderstood places and now Anthony Bourdain "PARTS UNKNOWN" is back again this Sunday. He adds Shanghai, Iran and even the far-flung Bronx. Anthony Bourdain joins me now. It's so awesome to be back with you.

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, "PARTS UNKNOWN": There is good catering today.

BALDWIN: Good catering happening today. Can we begin with this crazy news conference out of Dallas and we're learning more about this Ebola patient. Going to Africa, I know you get all of these vaccines and shots, but does it make you nervous when you go to these far flung places?

BOURDAIN: I try to take reasonable precautions. We were planning a Sierra Leone shoot, which we have postponed because of Ebola. I've been in Liberia. Not recently. So I know they have a tough time containing something like this that already faces an array of spectacular difficulties and something rare of an outbreak we might well reconsider. Sure.

BALDWIN: Postponing Sierra Leone?

BOURDAIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: I'm a New Yorker as of two months ago so I'm going to be paying extra attention to the piece on the Bronx this weekend. Here's a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOURDAIN: Old school New York good stuff. Prepare to lose your mind. So off cut pig parts, deep fried?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. BOURDAIN: Is that the shank there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The shoulder. We're going to get that in there.

BOURDAIN: Yes. So fat, skin, and --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It's like a candy bar.

BOURDAIN: Amazing. Amazing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: So I get to taste the amazing, amazing stuff.

BOURDAIN: This is really a wonderland of pork.

BALDWIN: Can you just tell me about it as I munch?

BOURDAIN: Slow-cooked pork over here, plantain and, of course, my favorite, a blood -- spicy blood sausage. Not for everybody's taste but for me, pure heaven.

BALDWIN: It's delicious. What is it about the Bronx? Here you are, like Tanzania, Shanghai, the Bronx. Why?

BOURDAIN: Well, the world came to us a long time ago. It's right there. I'm so ashamed of myself as a New Yorker. I've lived here since 17, 18 years old. We know Brooklyn, we know Queens. People all over the world who brought their food cultures with them and it's just there to be experienced 20 minutes away.

BALDWIN: That's awesome.

BOURDAIN: So I thought I'd investigate.

BALDWIN: So you investigate and we'll check that out on Sunday. I remember when we met before the first season kicked off and I said to you, OK, what's like the tip of the bucket list? And you said, Brooke, I would love to go to Iran, check?

BOURDAIN: Finally made it to Iran. What we thought was maybe an opening and now perhaps it looks more like a blip. We managed to go, spend about ten days and had an extraordinary, heart breaking, conspiring, deeply confusing, but always an interesting experience.

I think people are going to be stunned by what they see, the disconnect between the Iran we see on the news, the Iran we see in a geopolitical way and the Iran that you see walking down the streets and meeting ordinary people.

BALDWIN: Give me a slice of it walking down the street?

BOURDAIN: People are lovely and incredibly welcoming and happy to see Americans. There's a sense of -- a constant testing of limits you can see on the ground and their faces, exploring what do they want to be, what kind of culture, what kind of country do they want to be and they are fighting this every minute. It's an extraordinary thing to see.

BALDWIN: I can't wait to see it and I'm happy to see your blip. If that's checked off the bucket list, what the heck is next?

BOURDAIN: Yemen, I'm thinking about.

BALDWIN: You're being serious?

BOURDAIN: I'm being serious, if the military situation, the al Qaeda situation becomes a little more reasonable, it's a fascinating and beautiful country that I'd love to explore.

BALDWIN: Thank you so much for sitting in traffic and I'm going to chow down with you before racing out of here. So good to have you on, as always. Make sure you watch, Anthony Bourdain "PARTS UNKNOWN" Sunday 9:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here on this Thursday. Let's send it to Washington. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.