Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Ebola: How Big a Threat in America?; Vicious Crime Videotaped and Put Online; DNA Evidence Can Link Several Crimes against Young Women in Virginia
Aired October 06, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Ebola. Is it a legitimate health threat to us all? Or do some just think it is?
We have the facts. And I will answer your questions.
Plus, hot mom. A woman is charged with a crime for giving her suffering son marijuana oil. Is she right or wrong?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host Samantha Schacher is with us.
Coming up, I will be addressing fears, your fears about Ebola.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Well, that`s the thing, Dr. Drew. There`s a lot of fear out there, and I know that we all have, including myself, a lot
of questions.
PINSKY: Sam, are you afraid?
SCHACHER: You know, after talking to you -- no. I`m more concerned about my parents getting in a car accident or being diagnosed with cancer.
But it still is scary, Dr. Drew, hearing all the statistics.
PINSKY: All right. We`ll get into that.
But first, now that it is here, it is here, that`s what is freaking people out, brought in by a man from Liberia -- everyone is asking, is it
going to happen to me? Is it going to happen to my kids? How can I prevent it? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Liberian man, Thomas Duncan, who is in a hospital in Texas, from what we`re hearing, he`s in condition has taken a
turn for the worse. He`s in critical now.
LOUISE, EBOLA PATIENT`S PARTNER: I really want to go on the air to ask the American government to please help me. I want him to be saved, for
them to save his life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His neighborhood in Liberia, remember the story? He helped a pregnant woman who had Ebola. She later died. That
neighborhood has been quarantined. It looks like a ghost town. And from what we`re finding out, nine people are either dying or are dead.
All the people that he came in contact with have been contacted from what we understand -- 48 people, 10 are at high risk, seven hospital
workers and three family members.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: World health officials say the current Ebola outbreak has infected more than 7,400 people in three West African nations.
Some 3,400 have died.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, attorney, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", Evy
Poumpouras, law enforcement analyst, former special agent of Secret Service.
Sam, give us the back story on this gentleman.
SCHACHER: OK. Well, according to Liberian authorities, Dr. Drew, apparently he lied on his exit documents, denying the fact that he came
into contact with the Ebola virus. But his girlfriend has come forward saying, listen, he came here to marry me. They have -- they share a 19-
year-old son together and she herself was one of the occupants in that apartment where he stayed. They have all been quarantined, and she herself
has been taken into a secret location.
PINSKY: Let`s bring the panel in. Do you guys think that he did something wrong? Loni, you do?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes.
PINSKY: His girlfriend is here, he knows he`s been exposed.
All right. Loni, let`s say it`s one of your kids. Your son is over there in Liberia. He`s doing good work and he helps (INAUDIBLE) I think
he`d been exposed. Do you tell him stay there?
COOMBS: Well, at least, at the very least, don`t lie on the document. I mean, the documents are there for a reason. And we are
talking about here in America, oh, we`re all OK because we have this great containment plan. That containment does not work if people lie on
documents and come in here on false pretenses, carrying perhaps Ebola and not knowing about it.
So, yes, we have to do something about it. And people need to say at least be honest about where you`ve been and how you`re feeling. That`s a
basic minimum.
PINSKY: All right. Sam, what`s Twitter saying about this?
SCHACHER: Oh my gosh! Twitter is lighting up, Dr. Drew.
So, I have a tweet from LizT416 (ph). And she asks, "Who is paying the Ebola patient`s bill? We all know he came here to be treated."
I have never one from Jennifer Chaluck (ph) says, "He lied about exposure. He should go straight to jail when released from hospital."
PINSKY: Well, in fact, the district attorney is still contemplating, charging him with a crime.
Evy, do you think it`s a crime what he did?
EVY POUMPURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT EXPERT: Yes, I do think he should be charged with a crime, because he knowingly left that information off his
documents and now has put individuals at risk. At least if he was honest, they could have brought him here, and treated him and isolated him and
doing what they needed to and isolated him. But now, he`s exposed himself and put others at risk.
Absolutely, they should (AUDIO GAP) charges. I know it sounds bad, but you have to set a precedent, because now, everybody else is going to do
the same thing.
PINSKY: Loni is saying yes.
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: Loni is right. This is the people -- this is a problem, whoever has contact with Ebola, they`re going to lie. They`re going to lie
and they`re going to say, no, I`m fine, because they want to get treated. If you have Ebola, this is where you want to be.
COOMBS: Right.
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: He wasn`t even showing any symptoms at the time. I don`t think it was, he sat do and he looked at his
document and he said, I`m going to lie about this, I`m going to come to the States, I`m going to get really, really sick and I`m going to get help. I
don`t think that was his intention.
COOMBS: No.
BARNETT: I think he just filled out this form like anyone who has traveled internationally, they gave that you form, and you fill it, and I
really believe he did come here to get married as said.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right. We`re not going to be able to settle this.
But let switch gears and ask you guys this -- I think this is what everyone is freaking out about.
Do you, Loni, since you want to talk here, I give you a chance to answer this question. Loni, do you think that the government is in any way
obfuscating or distorting the fact? I think that`s what people believe.
COOMBS: Well, I -- you know, we don`t know for sure. But what do they gain by distorting the facts? Keeping it from a mass hysteria?
People are already, you know, nervous and hysterical about it as it is. What I do think is important that they put information out there for
people to know how to one, take care of themselves to prevent it. Two, know how important it is to be honest about these things.
I mean, people may have lied about it, but that`s not going to help anybody in the long run. You know, you don`t want to have your life
disrupted by I might -- you know, they`re going to investigate me. But it`s a little disruption now or it could be infecting thousands of people
later.
PINSKY: Vanessa, what are you shaking your head?
BARNETT: Because on the flip side you know how people here are. We can take something and it is mass hysteria.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: People are going to be walking around with facemasks and there`s one patient. And we really need to understand --
PINSKY: Thank you.
BARNETT: -- what to do going forward.
PINSKY: Here`s what you do. Here`s what you do. Here it is. No, no, I`m holding it up.
This is what you do. You wash your hands. You don`t put your hands to your face. You don`t get them to your nose, mouth or eyes. You wash
everything down if you travel or if you`re out there in the world. Use anti-bacterial, antiviral, sort of chlorinated, like a Clorox, is a good
way to go to cover the surfaces you might be touching, computers, phones, whatever it might be, to protect yourself against all infections.
SCHACHER: I`m always touching my face, like I do.
PINSKY: This is not something you`re likely to contract. It just isn`t. Even if the government is lying to us, which they are not.
Evy, do you think they`re lying in any way?
POUMPOURAS: I don`t think they`re lying. But I do think that there`s a little bit of this, you know, we have nothing to worry about. My
only concern is --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Wait, Evy -- Evy, you`ve been in there, you`ve been on the inside here. I can think of only one thing to worry about, if somebody has
some kind of crazy terrorist plan to use these people to distribute the virus. And even then, I`m going to explain a little later on the program,
that one person, with this virus, when they are sick, when they are ill, typically can only infect about two other people. That`s the best that can
-- that`s the most efficient this virus is at being transmitted, as opposed to sickness like measles, which is airborne, it can affect 18 people
easily.
We seem to miss this alchemy somehow.
SCHACHER: Right.
POUMPOURAS: You know, Dr. Drew, I think it`s one of the first times I`m going to disagree with you. I disagree with you on this one. I think
that this is a little more serious.
My concern is this, yes, we`ve got one isolated case. My problem is this, we`ve got so many flights coming into the U.S., and even if you stop
flights from West Africa, you have people connecting through Europe and other countries.
So, what if you have not one outbreak, not two, not 12, but what if you have a couple hundred? My concern is, are we equipped here in the U.S.
to deal with that? That`s my issue.
One guy in Texas, not such a big deal. But when you have multiple flights going on and multiple people coming in, that`s a problem.
PINSKY: Evy, answer me the one thing I`m worried about, which is the terrorists somehow figure out how to use Ebola or Ebola patients --
POUMPOURAS: Chemical, biological warfare.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: You`re inside that. Should I worry about it? That`s the only that concern me about this.
POUMPOURAS: You should always worry about that. That is very real. That`s something in government that we deal with.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What`s that Sam?
SCHACHER: Way to put that idea forward.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Believe me, there`s nothing I can think of that they haven`t thought of.
Listen, Evy, when I was in New York last week, Evy what should told me -- tell them what you told me?
POUMPOURAS: Go find a gas mask.
(CROSSTALK)
POUMPOURAS: Go buy a gas mask and I told him to get a go-bag.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: I can`t live like this. I can`t live in (INAUDIBLE). I cannot be worried about this all the time. Like there`s other things that
we are much closer to getting, like just the flu that`s supposed to be really bad this year.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: The flu -- Vanessa, got bless you. You`re right. Your judgment is keen and good. But we`ll keep this conversation going, bring a
behavior bureau in. Should people even be out travelling? We`ll talk about that.
And later, a mother who admits to giving her son, this is something I`m exorcised about, she gave him medicinal cannabis oil, illegal in the
state where she`s at. It controlled his seizures. And now, she is being prosecuted and I am outraged. She joins us, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was quite scary, but it would have been nice to get better information. We were told nothing. We sat in --
REPORTER: Did you see the sick passengers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a couple of people in clean suits and masks, and just escorted off. He walked off on his own power.
UIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t show any signs. He didn`t seem sick. Then, all of a sudden, I saw them taking him. They said he was vomiting.
His temperature wasn`t that high. He looked well, but you can never tell.
REPORTER: What was going through your mind when you saw it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow, it`s really real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, and I`m bringing in my behavior bureau.
Erica America, psychotherapist, TV host, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University, and Leeann Tweeden,
social commentator, host of "The Tomboys" podcast on Blog Talk Radio.
Now, the sick patient on the flight into Newark did not have Ebola. There are many other things you can get out there.
Let me say this, Sam. Understand that -- let`s look at the facts about Ebola. You do not get -- become infectious until you become ill.
You know how most flus and viruses and colds -- you produce a lot of virus that gets into the fluids of your body. Before you ill, you can cough and
sneeze, it becomes particulate, you spread it.
This is not like that. This is something that three to 10 days after you get sick, there`s sufficient virus in your system in your system for
you to be infectious and you must contact somebody directly.
It`s not in our sweat. It`s in our saliva. It`s in our blood. It`s not something you`re likely to transmit through household contact, or
certainly through sitting somebody on a plane.
Now, I`m not saying we should put anybody at risk for those kinds of things, because the disease because the disease is so damn deadly. But
let`s be realistic about this. Go ahead.
SCHACHER: OK. Let me just ask you this question. I know a lot of people are thinking the same thing. What is the likelihood of the Ebola
virus mutating and evolving like a lot of viruses do? Could it ever become airborne?
PINSKY: People worry about that, but so far that`s nothing coming close to that. It does not get into the -- it does not become particulate.
It just doesn`t do that.
SCHACHER: Thank God.
PINSKY: Erica, let`s talk about how this is being managed in people`s paranoia. What do we do with that?
ERICA AMERICA, TV HOST: You know, unfortunately, when we hear little bits here and there, fragments --
PINSKY: Not a little bit. America, there`s lots of information. We`re not getting little bits.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What`s the little bit? There`s full disclosure. They`re telling them everything about they possible can to educate the public about
what this is. And, by the way, we haven`t gotten into the fact that there was a major gaffe here. There was a major gaffe in the care of the Ebola
patient.
Do you guys know what that is?
SCHACHER: What?
PINSKY: Judy is nodding her head. She knew what it was. What was the big gaffe, Judy?
JUDY HO, PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY: Well, I`m not really up on --
PINSKY: OK, let me tell you, let me tell you. This will get Leeann spinning like a tube, I`m sure.
The guy came to an emergency room in Texas sick and said I came in from West Africa. I have a fever of 102 and they sent him home.
That was a gaffe of humongous proportion. That`s how other people were exposed. This kind of thing can happen, I understand. That`s what`s
really so scary about this. But they contained it. They`ve got it.
But, Leeann, you say that`s not enough?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, you know, everyone was saying in the first block, and I agree the same thing, that
this is something that can be really, really bad. We already know it`s gotten into the United States. So it can happen.
Now, I have no problem with people being quarantined. The problem is, who is going to pay for it in America? And it is very hard to stop.
We can say stop them coming from Nigeria, from Liberia, and all the other countries in West Africa that have Ebola outbreaks. But that`s very
difficult, because a lot of people take, you know, flights through Europe and other places around the world to get here.
So, what do we do? Who foots the bill for that?
But I`m not against maybe having them stay for three weeks in quarantine before they leave their country to make sure that they don`t
have Ebola, Dr. Drew, I know you`re the doctor. So you know more than I do. But it is a very real thing. And the who in the CDC, they`re all
behind the eight ball on this. They admitted that they`re months behind saying it`s the threat that it is, and the amount of people that died is
way more people than they ever thought.
PINSKY: In West Africa. Yes, I agree with you.
Erica?
TWEEDEN: Yes, that doesn`t mean it can`t spread, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Erica?
AMERICA: I know you`re trying to dissipate some of the fear, because, you know, watching some of these things, people can kind of let it
go, get to their head, and go crazy with it.
But at the same time, this is -- we are on the cusp of an epidemic, and the fact that it is so deadly and that it is contagious --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We`re not. We`re not on the cusp of an epidemic.
SCHACHER: You guys, we can`t compare what`s happening in West Africa, which is so sad and unfortunate. I get it, 7,400 people infected,
supposedly, that rate doubles every three weeks, very alarming. But they`re dealing with different variables that don`t apply to us here. But
it doesn`t --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: They don`t have the same amount of medical or even the same quality of medical facilities and medical aid. They don`t have the
same adequate shelter.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: I don`t know that a lot of hospitals that are prepared to deal with 7,000 people sick with Ebola.
PINSKY: Judy, help me help people access what`s really going on here. We have people that don`t vaccinate against a real serious
infectious illness -- measles.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And people are freaking out about one case of Ebola in Texas.
HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. We are not on the verge of an epidemic. This is a statistical problem that we all have as human beings because we
are much more responsive to emotional appeal.
So, it`s scaring a lot of people, so we`re like, OK, we`re going to be the next victim. I have friends watching "28 Days Later" thinking
that`s going to happen. It`s not going to happen, you guys, because statistically, it is very, very low that you`re going to contract Ebola.
It is very hard to contract Ebola as you already mentioned, Dr. Drew, and doctors do know how to deal with it once you present with a symptom.
TWEEDEN: Yes. But like the guy in Dallas didn`t even answer -- he lied on his flight itinerary saying, had you been in contact with anybody
with Ebola, and he had and he said no.
PINSKY: Well, Leeann, I`m so glad you`re the one on this panel, because that -- there`s so many even with that, let`s say that happens 30
more times. Even with that, that`s still -- there`s so many worse things right now swirling around.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: Oh, I agree with you, Dr. Drew, it`s not like there`s nothing else out there that we can get sick from. But this is a real
problem.
PINSKY: It`s equivalent of people being afraid to fly.
HO: Or --
PINSKY: Judy?
HO: Sorry, I was just going to say, it`s like -- there`s less of a chance of you being hit by lightning.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: It really is.
PINSKY: Oh, substantially less. Substantially less.
TWEEDEN: But I don`t want to be on a plane with a guy who lied about being in contact with Ebola.
PINSKY: I don`t want you to be either. And I`m not saying you should be. I`m not taking some sort of weird, radical position. I`m just
trying to put things in context.
SCHACHER: Calm the hysteria.
PINSKY: It`s scary, I grant you.
AMERICA: Yes, I agree to take it seriously.
PINSKY: It is scary, we must take it seriously.
AMERICA: But at the same time, I`m not getting crazy with it.
PINSKY: But as a clinician, I can tell you, and I`ll throw some stuff up in the next segment about what it is the government is telling
you. They`re being very transparent about what this thing is and how it works.
All the data is what the same thing we as physicians know. You have available to you on CNN and HLN. It`s the same -- every time the head of
the CDC gets up and talks, I`ve known him for years. He`s a great physician, I mean, really, an amazing guy and he`s telling you the truth.
I`ve known him for years.
All right. We`ll keep going.
And later, an update on Hannah Graham. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The very first person diagnosed with Ebola in the United States is being given this experimental drug. The hospital in
Dallas says this drug being given to Thomas Eric Duncan is not the same one that was given to the American doctor and that American aide worker who
recovered from Ebola at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Vanessa and Leeann. Now, I want to put our own version of a chart which we put together by NPR showing relative
contagiousness of Ebola compared to other illnesses.
There it is, guys. One, it`s called the "arnot (ph)". The infected person is in dark red. The number of people likely to get ill from that
person, even by low-risk exposure, is there. It`s 18 in measles, it`s two in Ebola. It`s the same at hepatitis C. Very similar transmission rates.
One person, two others. Measles, 18.
Because I`m being accused by our twitter verse of distorting the facts or not being cautious enough, I want to bring some artillery of my
own.
I have Dr. Celine Gounder. She`s infectious disease physician, public health specialist.
Dr. Gounder, let`s go over the facts about Ebola, might we? Are you there?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN (via telephone): Yes, hi. Good evening.
PINSKY: Hey, hi. Welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us.
So, I was trying to make the case that the arnot (ph) of Ebola is two people. It`s not likely to be -- it`s not going to cause an epidemic.
It`s relatively easy to contain and it only shows up in sufficient concentration in body fluids after somebody has been sick on average for
about three days. Am I getting that right?
GOUNDER: That is correct. I know one of your previous guests mentioned, you know, do we need to worry about Ebola mutating to become
airborne? That kind of mutation has never been observed before, where a virus can mutate, that the way it transmits changes.
A virus can mutate and we know Ebola is actually mutating quite rapidly. But it tends to mutate to become more drug resistant to that
medications we might give won`t work as well, so that it can escape our immune system more easily, so that it actually becomes less deadly, because
it`s in the interest of the virus to be less deadly so that the host it invades survives, you can pass it on.
But we don`t really see virus mutates to become airborne.
PINSKY: So, that`s not going to happen.
SCHACHER: Thank God.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Do you know what the treatment is they`re referring to this gentleman is now getting and why they ear not using the one they tried
previously on the physician and nurse that did recover?
GOUNDER: Yes, I`m quite surprised actually. It`s medication called (INAUDIBLE). It`s related to a medication we use for herpes viruses and
(INAUDIBLE) HIV patients.
PINSKY: Hey, like, Dr. Gounder, it`s (INAUDIBLE), is that right?
(CROSSTALK)
GOUNDER: Yes, a little bit like that. ZMapp, which is the one they gave to Brantly and some of the others, we ran out of that. There`s no
other ZMapp and there won`t be for self-months at least. But there was another one called TKM Ebola (ph) that was given to Richard Sacra, which is
also another promising Ebola drug. Why that was not offered here? I really don`t know. I don`t understand that.
PINSKY: And what do we tell people who believe that they`re getting disported information from the CDC? How do we calm people`s fears about
that?
GOUNDER: Well, I think what it comes down to is do you believe and trust your government or don`t you?
PINSKY: Well, I don`t. Let`s say I don`t, just for the sake of argument. But I do trust the CDC, and I have known Fauci for a long time,
and they are saying everything that I know to be true as a physician.
GOUNDER: Well, I would agree with that. Tom Frieden is somebody I trust and respect tremendously. He`s helped deal with other epidemics in
the United States, real threat to our health, such as tuberculosis in New York City in the early `90s. We have a resurgence of that very old disease
here.
He knows what he is doing, and he is actually truly giving us the facts about Ebola and whether we`re at risk.
PINSKY: OK. Dr. Gounder, you want to ask the question? Go ahead.
TWEEDEN: Yes. Is there a vaccine for this?
PINSKY: No.
GOUNDER: For Ebola? No. Not one that`s been fully tested and we know works. There are very multiple vaccine candidates, some of which may
end proving to work. But it`s going to be a while before we`re at the point where we can say this works, this is safe and we can scale up, you
know, produce enough to get people vaccinated.
PINSKY: Then I`m going to be yelling at you to get vaccinated and people are going to be saying, the vaccine is going to cause Ebola. It is
the craziness of our culture.
What`s up, Vanessa?
BARNETT: I, sorry, Evy, won`t be getting a gas mask. I don`t live in that kind of irrational fear. But --
PINSKY: Rational?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Whatever Evy says, I do. What are you talking about?
BARNETT: But should we be worried about transfer on money?
PINSKY: OK, let me ask the question -- my understanding, Dr. Gounder, is that the virus has been shown to be -- survive up to I believe
six hours or six days after -- on a surface, which was that?
GOUNDER: Yes, it`s been quoted up to six days. But that`s under perfectly ideal conditions.
PINSKY: Is it sufficient for us --
(CROSSTALK)
GOUNDER: Room temperature --
PINSKY: Is it sufficient for all of us to just wipe down surfaces with Clorox and try to keep our hands away from our face and keep our hands
clean? Is that what should be doing?
GOUNDER: That`s all perfect. That`s excellent advice.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOUNDER: The virus is a very wimpy virus. So, even basic soap and water, alcohol hand gels, of course, chlorine and Clorox, even higher
temperatures, like basically room temperature will kill this virus.
PINSKY: OK.
GOUNDER: Sunlight will kill it.
PINSKY: Doctor Gounder, I`ve got to move on. You`ve rescued me tonight in dispute - two of these social media, and I really appreciate it. I no
doubt will have to go back to you later at some future date. So I appreciate you coming on and Evy, now to you. You disagree with me. It`s
a wimpy virus!
(LAUGHTER)
POUMPOURAS: You know what, Dr. Drew? When you asked her could it go airborne, she didn`t say to you absolutely not, it won`t go airborne.
PINSKY: It won`t. It`s never .
POUMPOURAS: It`s happened to .
PINSKY: No, no, it`s never happened.
POUMPOURAS: She said hang on, she said we haven`t observed it.
PINSKY: No, no, listen. Evy, listen carefully.
POUMPOURAS: It isn`t going to happen.
PINSKY: Evy, listen carefully.
POUMPOURAS: I just want to say.
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait, it`s never been observed in a virus in the history of mankind. Let me put it more dramatically. A virus has never
made that transformation ever. So we assume it can`t, OK?
POUMPOURAS: OK.
PINSKY: OK.
POUMPOURAS: Well, just her answers were not enough - so the other thing as far as - what I`m saying is not irrational, Vanessa. When I speak, I speak
from a proactive sense. And that I assess the environment and I say, OK, what can we do to be proactive rather than reactive? The other concern is
this, I understand that it only affects a few people, but the problem is, we have an epidemic overseas.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: I understand we can control it here, but if you have a large number of people overseas coming from there to here, and then we explode
exponentially here.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: For this coming from the outside. That`s the issue. The other concern is this, the CDC overseas on the federal level what`s going
on, in other words, it`s the state or local authorities that decide how to actually access the problem. So in other words, is every city or state
official, the counties, are they prepared to handle the problem when it comes here? So it`s not the federal government .
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: . that`s only going to be handling it, it falls under the actual city, the officials if they are prepared. So, my concern is this,
if it`s in New York or in L.A. or in Miami, they`re probably going to be very well prepared in handling this problem. But if you are talking a
smaller town or an area that doesn`t have the resources and assets, there you may see a problem.
PINSKY: OK, well, Sam, we are getting less comments of you? And I sure say .
SCHACHER: Less comments, I was calm, Dr. Drew, I know I hear more of Evy .
PINSKY: Well, let me - let me defend Evy.
SCHACHER: Be prepared.
PINSKY: If she`s irrational, I want to hear more of it. Because - because ..
SCHACHER: Now I`m scared.
PINSKY: Yeah. Because I want to be prepared. I don`t want to be silly. But there you said exponential. And this is not that kind of a virus. It
does not grow exponentially. It`s more arithmetic. Now, if 10,000 people came over here with the virus, we would have a problem.
A mother, this story ahead, equally is worked up as the last name, mother gives her brain-injured son with seizures cannabis oil. Now, she goes to
jail. I want you to go to our website, Dr. Drewhln.com and take our poll on this. I think you will be impressed with the unanimity of opinion about
this. Well, I actually have pot mom with us later. And also later, Hannah Graham, have been missing for about three weeks now, we have got an update
after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just hurts in my brain, just everywhere. I can`t really explain the pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That pain came in headaches, muscle spasms and seizures. It got so bad Tray couldn`t go to school, and started to punch
and cut himself. Nothing that came from Minnesota doctors seemed to work. The Browns brought cannabis oil back home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt better. The pain went away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A week later that my mom called and said the cops are here looking for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators seized the oil and charged Angela Brown with child endangerment.
WHOOPI GOLDBERG: The fact that this woman is being persecuted because she`s taking care of her baby, and that you all who are there in Minnesota
who are not saying, let`s meet with the family, and you`re thinking about taking her to jail because she`s protecting her kid, that`s not America!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Loni and Leeann. And I am so on board with Whoopi on this one.
SHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: It is a story - Sam, you are too?
SHACHER: Absolutely, without a doubt.
PINSKY: All right, you`re tweeting about this story the most tonight. A mom willing to go to jail to get her son treated. The treatment happens to
be marijuana. Oh, my goodness. Oh, everybody, lock your kids up. She`s going to use cannabis to treat the seizure. Sam, give us some details.
SHACHER: OK, well, his name is Trey. He`s 15 years old, Dr. Drew and he has a traumatic brain injury and according to these documents, he suffers
from headaches, seizure and it`s even tried to harm himself to escape from the agonizing pain. When conventional medication didn`t work, his parents
left their home in Minnesota to Colorado to purchase the cannabis oil. Immediately on the very first day, his symptoms started to alleviate and
went away. Then his teachers noticed how much better he was doing in school, so they asked the mother what`s attributed to his new found
success. And she told them, I`ve been giving my son cannabis oil. Well, she alerted authorities, the school did and that`s when the mother was
charged with child endangerment and could face up to two years in jail.
SCHACHER: Well, Vanessa, clearly this woman is a criminal. Clearly. Clearly she is a criminal ..
BARNETT: Well, apparently in Minnesota.
SCHACHER: And this is a lifelong criminal.
BARNETT: In Minnesota, apparently. But this is - I`m just -- I am infuriated. I feel like Whoopi Goldberg here. And that is the only time
I`ve ever said those words.
(LAUGHTER)
BARNETT: I am a mother and I believe in by any means necessary. And this mother wasn`t reckless. She didn`t just roll up a duby (ph) and give it to
her son. She spoke to a doctor, she researched the marijuana, she traveled to Colorado and she gave it to him. And not some crazy dosage, that was
going to get him high or whatever. She helped her son feel better. At the core of any parent, isn`t that what we`re here for? Isn`t that what we are
supposed to do? And now she could go to jail. That`s just - it`s crazy to me.
PINSKY: All right. Loni, how do we defend that? How does the legal system defend that?
COOMBS: Well ..
PINSKY: If she`s tried. I understand she broke the law, I understand, but is the spirit of the law to let somebody sick suffer?
COOMBS: No, exactly. I mean yes, she broke the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law is here. You want to take care of your child, and she
did it, as Vanessa said, with a medical advice and recommendation. She went out of the state to purchase it where it`s legal to purchase. And
then she brought it back into the state and she gave it to her son. Now, they`ve charged her with child endangerment, but you give me a witness who
is going to say that she endangered her child`s health.
PINSKY: Right.
COOMBS: All I heard was positive outcomes.
PINSKY: That`s right.
COOMBS: And this is really helping her son. So I don`t think that charge is going to fly in court.
PINSKY: Now, I hope not. I hope not. I`m going to talk to her in a few minutes. But Leeann, are you a law and order? I know that`s you think.
There was a great tweet that just came up a second ago.
TWEEDEN: I saw that.
PINSKY: Would you rather have her stream strung out on painkillers .
TWEEDEN: Right.
PINSKY: Or have everything controlled with cannabis? Why is one good and one bad?
TWEEDEN: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, I mean it`s heartbreaking, because I`m the mother of a one-year-old son. And I just, you know, I tried to put
myself in her shoes. I think where I had a problem with it is that I feel like she is going and trying to medicate her son herself. And you and I
have talked about this on your podcast, Dr. Drew, where you find it very difficult when people say oh, I know what to do for my son.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: Maybe she did hear about it from a doctor, but she`s kind of doing this on her own.
PINSKY: Maybe.
TWEEDEN: I don`t feel like .
PINSKY: Well, we`ll find out.
TWEEDEN: She should have some doctor. But I hope that she does have people behind her that are going to help her medically.
PINSKY: You know, Leeann, no, no - Leeann, let Sam talk about this, but Leeann, I do agree with that often times the medicalization of marijuana
includes a bad practice of medicine. This is not that situation.
TWEEDEN: Right.
SCHACHER: Sometimes.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: Well, and sometimes you have to be your own advocate. Because this mother was stuck in a rock and a hard place. She was trying anything
and everything conventionally and this was not working. Meanwhile, her son is in so much pain that he`s trying to commit suicide. He wants to commit
suicide because he`s in so much agony. And I applaud her.
PINSKY: Consult with the physicians, give her a good medicine, like an opiate. Maybe - those are good medicines, right?
SCHACHER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Those are good medicine.
SHACHER: Like that - that`s way more harmful.
PINSKY: What about patients die of that all the time than - it`s a good medicine.
All right, I`m going to bring the mom in. She`s going to talk to us about how she - who she consulted and how she did this, and how things are going
for her. I`ll ask her. She`s with us after this, pot mom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TREY BROWN: I used to like cry myself to sleep every night. That was really hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every day, Trey struggled with headaches so severe, his parents say he was suicidal. And traditional medication wasn`t
working.
The Browns brought cannabis oil back home.
TREY BROWN: I felt better, all huh. The pain went away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When authorities learned Angela was giving Trey cannabis drops, they charged her with two misdemeanors, including child
endangerment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecutor`s version of this is that a good mom allows her child to be in pain to self-harm and to attempt to take his
life. I guess that`s a good mom in his eye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau, Judy, Evy and Leeann. Tonight, we have a poll. Should a mom be charged with a crime for having
given her son medical marijuana? Effectively, go hln.com for slash Dr. Drew right now. Vote on our poll. We will reveal the results in our
after-show on Facebook. You see what`s going on there right now. You guys are pretty clear in your opinions. Evy, what she did was illegal. But the
question is, should she be punished?
POUMPOURAS: I think this mother should go get herself a very good defense attorney and this defense attorney should protect her and try to defend her
at all costs. It makes me sad to see that she could possibly get two years when other individuals, serious criminals .
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: Who intentionally offend and commit crimes, don`t - sometimes go walk away with probation. Absolutely, this is very difficult thing to
see. I understand she broke the law, but there are times where as human beings we have to look at the law and say what`s wrong with this law.
PINSKY: And then Leeann, should - spend that money with the defense attorneys? Come on now.
TWEEDEN: Well, hopefully somebody will do that pro bono for her because this is such a big case.
PINSKY: Please.
TWEEDEN: Someone is. Someone is.
PINSKY: OK. Sam, tell me. Tell me.
SCHACHER: Well, I don`t know very much information, just that I know that somebody that`s pro-marijuana legalization attorney .
PINSKY: Well, I`ll tell you what.
SCHACHER: . is representing her pro bono.
PINSKY: I will only put that person certainly on our website and talk to him, maybe even on the show by - producers. But Judy, go ahead.
HO: Well, I was just saying, Dr. Drew, that this is one of those complex moral dilemmas they actually give you in school when you`re learning about
how to make decisions and how to actually think morally. And it`s that story of, a mother who, you know, runs into the pharmacy after hours and
steals the medication because she doesn`t have money for it just so she can cure her child, is that right or wrong thing to do? And I would hope that
our society and people in general would actually see this as, you know what, this is a complex moral dilemma where she was trying to help her
child. Instead of attributing that intention to something where she would actually harm her child.
TWEEDEN: And Dr. Drew, you know, she said that a doctor had told her about the cannabis oil.
PINSKY: Yeah.
TWEEDEN: Could he be held responsible or could he maybe help defend her in court?
PINSKY: Let`s get some of those details. I`ve got Trey`s mother on the phone, Angela Brown and as well as her attorney, Michael Hughes. Now,
Angela, the law enforcement has taken the cannabis oil away, my understanding is. How is Trey doing without it?
ANGELA BROWN, MOM CHARGED FOR GIVING SOM MEDICAL MARIJUANA: He`s not doing well.
PINSKY: Yeah.
ANGELA BROWN: He`s not.
PINSKY: All right. And - I only want to know, I`m just getting so angry about this. I`m so sorry. I`m sorry that people will not put the patient
first. I don`t understand. I do not understand that. It just makes me crawl out of my skin. Was it -- is there a physician advising you? In
other words, the only thing that bothers me about what you did is that you`re sort of playing doctor. Is there somebody serving that role for
you?
ANGELA BROWN: I had suggestions from a couple of doctors that we try it. So no, I didn`t just go into a back alley and buy marijuana.
PINSKY: Right.
ANGELA BROWN: And researched it by the bed. I had the suggestion from a doctor. But because the two states where my son doctors -- it was illegal
at the time, so, no, of course not, they can`t just write a prescription and say, you know --
PINSKY: And to get things - to make this crazier, it`s going to be legal in 2015 in your state, right?
ANGELA BROWN: Yes.
PINSKY: So you are going to - and now magically it`s a bad drug, and soon it`s going to be a good drug. Our thinking on this is so weird and
draconian.
SCHACHER: It is.
PINSKY: And it makes people suffer. Oh, we could - but I`m sure they offer you good drugs like opiate pain medication, right?
ANGELA BROWN: But the problem was, is that the medications he was on, caused him harm. And that`s what led us to the desperation of seeking out
medicinal cannabis.
PINSKY: Why should that be a desperation? That shouldn`t be a desperate move. That should be an - move, it`s like we`re going to find a treatment
that works for him. It`s an option. Did you contemplate any of the other anti-seizure (INAUDIBLE) of cannabis?
ANGELA BROWN: Trey has been on many, many --
PINSKY: No, no, of cannabis. But listen, Angela, there are anti-seizure components of cannabis. Did you go after any of those, like try to get any
of the research protocols that are under way, anything like that?
ANGELA BROWN: It`s really hard to understand you, because you are on my phone, but we - what we did, because we live in a state where it`s not
legal, so it`s hard to just -- and we have limited funds, so it wasn`t like I could just go to Oregon and get him into a study or spend weeks and weeks
in Colorado trying to figure things out. We had to do the research that we could at home, and then we literally just fell into these amazingly kind,
loving people in Colorado that helped us out.
PINSKY: Sam.
ANGELA BROWN: And helped us along the way.
PINSKY: Sam, what is the reaction like on social media? On Facebook page?
SCHACHER: It`s varied, Dr. Drew. So I have from Antonio, "If I did that I would be charged, no excuse to break the law." From Anjelica, "He needed a
medical marijuana card from the doctor, so the law is the law. Next time she should be smarter about what she is doing."
PINSKY: So, they`re sort of negative.
SCHACHER: It switches. From Debbie, "If it`s against the law, duh." From Daniel, "This is ridiculous. Moms are being treated like criminals for
trying to make their children pain free." Nurse Amy, "Hell, no, she shouldn`t - she tried traditional medications, they didn`t work. As his
mother, she took it to the next level to get some relief for her child, I do the same in a heartbeat. And finally from Erin, "Another stupid charge
against a mother who obviously cares for her son, risking jail to help him. She should be commended in court, not charged." I agree.
PINSKY: Evy, do you get what I`m concerned about? That there`s this weird moralizing about treatment of medical illness. Why do we have to have a
moralistic attitude about this? It`s bizarre.
POUMPOURAS: It`s because the situation here, she broke the law. And even though it`s going to be legal in the future, that`s what ex- post factor
is. If the law -- whatever the law is at that time. So she intentionally made a decision to break the law and that`s the way they`re looking at it.
And they`re probably maybe trying to set an example with her so that other people don`t do the same thing, because you have Colorado and these
bordering states where there`s a lot of discontent amongst the people that cross the border, they go get drugs, they come back. So then it comes to
the fact, it`s like so how many times are you going to excuse this, so to speak? But I do think that if they want to charge her, fine. But putting
her in jail, having her serve a sentence just for trying to do the right thing, that`s where it starts to get ugly. That`s where you have to kind
of on a moral level say you know what? At what point, fine, you want to punish her to a point, fine. But then you have to stop and think of it
from a rational perspective, a moral perspective. She was trying to do the right thing.
PINSKY: Judy. Of course she was.
HO: And if she gets sentenced and put in jail, then you`re taking her away from a son ..
SCHACHER: Right.
HO: That obviously needs her and is sick right now.
SCHACHER: A caregiver.
PINSKY: OK.
SCHACHER: So, that`s terrible.
PINSKY: It`s just - It makes me sick. Angela, listen, I hope people are supporting you appropriately and I hope things turn out well. Are you
optimistic about this?
ANGELA BROWN: I am. I just feel that, you know, the negative people out there have never been in my shoes. They never had to hold their child down
while he was trying to kill himself. So, until you`re in that place, you can`t say anything, you know? And I do have hope for the future, and it
might not be here in this state. It might have to be in a state where it`s welcome to treat your child with medicinal cannabis.
PINSKY: The only warn I would give to you is that your son sounds like a complex case. And please .
ANGELA BROWN: It is.
PINSKY: Yeah, please get proper physician followup.
ANGELA BROWN: And he does have several doctors. Yes.
PINSKY: OK. Good.
ANGELA BROWN: He does even have a doctor in Colorado.
PINSKY: OK.
ANGELA BROWN: Yes. This was not our first route.
PINSKY: No, I understand - I understand it.
ANGELA BROWN: It`s not the first route.
PINSKY: I just - I get it. The one thing I`ve always objected to with medical marijuana is when it becomes bad practice of medicine. Just make
sure you get good people taking proper care and really being smart and thinking .
SCHACHER: Good luck, Angela.
PINSKY: Yeah, good luck, Angela.
(CROSSTALK)
ANGELA BROWN: Everything that I`ve done .
PINSKY: I have no doubt. But we`ve got to go. Thank you for joining us. And again, we wish you luck.
All right, next up, a quick update on Hannah Graham after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam. Hannah Graham has been missing for more than three weeks now. Let us not forget about her. Hannah`s parents made a
desperate plea of the weekend for any information about their missing daughter. A suspect in the case had been arrested, charged with abduction.
He`s the last person known to be with her. If he`s told police anything they are not telling us publicly, there have been about 3,000 tips but none
of them have thus far panned out. Here is Hannah`s picture. If you know where she could be, please contact authorities. Let`s not forget about the
Hannah Graham case. Sam, we`ve been reporting this one for a while and still nothing.
SCHACHER: Still nothing, Dr. Drew. Please, everybody out there, help us find her. Go on Twitter, go on Instagram. There`s a big call to action
campaign on social media. Let`s bring Hannah home.
PINSKY: All right. There`s that. And then we are going to have our after show on Facebook. You can find us there. And we will reveal the results
of our poll about the pot mom. And I think it will be pretty unanimous. "Forensic Files" next.
END
