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Leon Panetta Book Making Waves; Ebola Contracted Outside of Africa; North Korea's Unplanned Visit to South Korea for Talks

Aired October 07, 2014 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from Washington.

Leon Panetta was among the biggest players in the Obama administration. He was the head of the CIA, then the secretary of defense. Now, in his brand-new book just out today entitled "Worthy Fights," Panetta is giving an explosive assessment of President Obama's errors in the war on terror. Our own Gloria Borger sat down with the former defense secretary. She's here with me right now.

He's very, very candid, the secretary of defense.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He is very, very candid, surprisingly so. And, you know, Wolf, and you know this very well, that in the Washington power grid, Leon Panetta was among the biggest players in the Obama administration. He's also spent 40 years in public service.

And he's now written a memoir that's really full of clear respect and admiration for President Obama but contains very blunt criticism on foreign policy and of the president's leadership style.

I asked him about the war against ISIS and whether the president should have ruled out ground forces. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY & FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I take the position that when you're commander-in-chief that you really ought to keep all options on the table to be able to have the flexibility to do what is necessary in order to defeat this enemy. But to make those air strikes work, to be able to do what you have to do, you don't just send planes in and drop bombs. You've got to have targets. You have to know what you're going after. To do that, you do need people on the ground.

BORGER (voice-over): Panetta argues that President Obama is making up for lost time in going after ISIS now because of the complete withdrawal of U.S. Forces from Iraq in 2011.

(on camera): Would ISIS be as much of a threat today had we left some force behind? PANETTA: I do think that if we had had a presence there, it might not

have created the kind of vacuum that we saw develop in Iraq.

BORGER (voice-over): He blames former Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki and a passive White House.

(on camera): You describe a White House that -- this is your word -- that frustrated you, that didn't use the leverage -- and that is your word, too, leverage, that we had in the United States to try and keep a force in Iraq.

PANETTA: What I'm saying is that Maliki was the kind of leader that you had to constantly put pressure on to direct him in the right direction. We had with Iraq made a commitment with regards to military assistance, F-16 fighter planes, other types of military aid, that I think if we had said, look, if you're not going to give us the agreement that we need to maintain our force there, we may not provide this kind of assistance. In other words, try to push him.

BORGER: A threat?

PANETTA: Of course. You need to threaten guys like that who won't come along. And everybody knew that.

BORGER: But you wrote that the president's active advocacy was missing. Are you saying he didn't give it the push?

PANETTA: I think the kind of push and direct involvement that I think could have had an impact simply never developed because the sense was, if they don't want it, then why should we want it?

BORGER (voice-over): Panetta describes a similar scenario on the question of arming the Syrian rebels in 2012. As defense secretary, he made the case to do it, as did most of the national security team. But the president never signed off, arguing the weapons could wind up in the wrong hands.

PANETTA: It's understandable. But at the same time, if we're going to influence the rebel forces, if we're going to try to establish a moderate element to those forces that it was important to provide this kind of assistance in order to have some leverage over what they were going to do.

BORGER: There was honest disagreement but then no decision.

PANETTA: To a large extent, it wasn't that the president kind of said, no, we shouldn't do it. The president kind of never really came to a decision as to whether or not it should happen.

BORGER (on camera): What do you mean by that, never came to a decision?

PANETTA: I think it basically sat there for a while and then got to the point where everybody just kind of assumed that it was not going to happen.

BORGER: Is that the right way to do things?

PANETTA: I think it would have been far better had he just made the decision, we're not going to do it, so everybody knew where we stood. But we all kind of waited to see whether or not he would ultimately come around.

BORGER: And --

PANETTA: It didn't happen.

BORGER: And you talk about hesitation and half steps. Is that what you're referring to?

PANETTA: Yeah, it was just that kind of hesitation to really do what needed to be done. Don't get me wrong. I think he was very strong in terms of the war on terrorism. And he made some tough decisions. But there were these decisions that basically never were confronted that I think, in many ways, contributed to the problems we're facing today.

BORGER (voice-over): Finally, the president is taking action, Panetta says, albeit a bit late.

PANETTA: He's made the decision to put troops on the ground in Iraq to try to help the security forces. He's made the decision to arm and train rebel forces in Syria. And he's made the decision to conduct air attacks. So in many ways, he's made the right decisions. Now, I think those decisions should have been made two years ago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BORGER: To no one's surprise, the White House is less than thrilled by this assessment from Panetta. And in the second part of my interview with the former defense secretary, he talks about the portrait he paints of Obama.

BLITZER: We'll see it in a moment, Gloria. We'll see if that portrait is positive or negative. Stand by for that.

Also ahead, a nurse's assistant in Spain is now the first person known to have contracted Ebola outside of Africa. We're going to talk with an infectious disease specialist about what this means, what could be done to stop the spread of Ebola.

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BLITZER: Robert Gates did it, Hillary Clinton to a certain degree as well, now, Leon Panetta. All former Obama administration officials who have now written books that have some very pointed criticism of the president's foreign policies.

Leon Panetta's memoir, "Worthy Fights," takes direct aim at the president's policies on Iraq and Syria.

Our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, is here with part two of her interview.

We're anxious to hear more, Gloria.

BORGER: In the second part of my interview, Wolf, I asked Panetta about the portrait he sketches of the president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BORGER (voice-over): The portrait Panetta sketches of Barack Obama sometimes looks more like a professor than a president.

PANETTA: He relies on the logic of his presentation with the hope that ultimately people will embrace that logic and then do what's right. You know what? In 50 years, my experience is, logic doesn't work in Washington. You have to basically go after people and make them understand what they have to do. And that means you create a war room. You go after votes. You have to push people.

BORGER (on camera): So did you have a sense that the president found that distasteful or that it wasn't something he wanted to do or was comfortable doing or --

PANETTA: I think it offended him that people would not really get serious and work on the issues. And I think, as a result of that, he just felt, how can I deal with people that simply don't want to do the right thing for the country? Well, the reality is, if you want to govern in this country, you have to deal with people you don't like.

BORGER (voice-over): And you have to keep your word, which he argues the president did not do when Syria used chemical weapons against its own people, violating the president's clearly drawn red line.

PANETTA: The president very clearly should have said, you have crossed that red line and we're not going to allow that to happen. And I think initially my sense was they were going to do exactly that. But somehow they backed away from it. I think that was a key moment in time in terms of sending a message to the world that there was a question mark as to whether or not the United States would stand by its word.

BORGER: Panetta tries to reconcile the president who vacillated over Syria with the decisive Obama who gave the bin Laden raid a green light.

PANETTA: A president that made the decision to go after bin Laden and made a very gutsy decision to do that. And I really respected that decision. I just could not have imagined him not making the same decision when it came to the credibility of the United States on drawing that red line in Syria.

BORGER: To no one's surprise, the White House has not warmly welcomed this version of history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Former administration officials, as soon as they leave, write books, which I think is inappropriate. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BORGER (on camera): Does he have a point there?

PANETTA: You know, I'm of the view that you don't put a hold on history. History is what it is. And I would say right now, I recommend the president and Vice President Biden take the time to read the book, because I think, when you read it, it's a pretty balanced presentation of what happened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Gloria, pretty strong words from the former defense secretary.

Why are so many of the Obama administration officials now while the president is still in office writing these memoirs?

BORGER: I think in the 24/7 cycle in which we live, people rush to get out their version of history, as it were. And I think as you pointed out, you saw that with Bob Gates and you saw that with Hillary Clinton, to a degree, Leon Panetta. But it's not new, Wolf. You've covered Washington an awfully long time, as have I. And we've seen these books come out of administrations that don't make presidents happy. However, in the end, of course, you can assume that President Obama is going to write his book. Joe Biden's going to write his book. So they'll have their whack at it.

BLITZER: And this is going to be used by the president's critics, Republicans, especially, going into these midterm elections.

BORGER: Well, because lots of Republicans make the case that the president did not use the leverage he had when he could have in Iraq to keep a residual force behind. And they argue, as does Panetta, that that would have helped scuttle some of what we see with ISIS right now. So, of course, it's going to add to that argument. I think Panetta is well aware of it.

I did ask Panetta, by the way, how hard he argued for his point of view within the administration, and he said he argued -- they had tough arguments but when the president makes a decision, you accept it and you move on. And he also said to me that he never gave any thought to resigning.

BLITZER: But one of the most damning things we just heard you report on, is that that sometimes the president failed to make a decision.

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: That was awkward moment.

BORGER: Right. He kept saying, we kept waiting and waiting, and then it was sort of like inertia.

BLITZER: All right. We'll have more on this later in "The Situation Room." BORGER: Thanks.

BLITZER: Gloria, thanks very much.

Still to come, it's been more than a month, still no public sign of the North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un. Is he still really in power? Brian Todd is investigating.

Also, the government plans to strengthen Ebola screenings at U.S. airports. But will that help? What is going on? We'll talk with an infectious disease specialist.

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BLITZER: We have just learned new information about that freelance cameraman being treated for Ebola in Nebraska. The hospital says Ashoka Mukpo is being treated with an experimental drug. He's being given the same drug as Thomas Eric Duncan, the Ebola patient now in a hospital in critical condition in Dallas. And a nurse's assistant in Spain is now the first person known to have contracted the disease outside of Africa. She helped care for two Ebola patients who were infected in West Africa. Both of those patients unfortunately died.

Infectious disease specialist, Dr. Alexander van Tulleken, is joining us from New York.

Dr. van Tulleken, thanks very much for joining us.

Let's start with this infection of the nurse's assistant in Spain. Obviously, there must have been, I assume, some sort of breakdown in the system. How concerned should all of us be?

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST: I don't know if concerned is necessarily useful for most of the American public. But I think if you're running a hospital or if you're a public health administrator in a big city, you should definitely be concerned by this. It seems like there's been, I think in any case like this, there must have been a failure and seems like there was a failure in getting the right kind of equipment. So according to some stories, they say the gowns she was using were permeable and weren't fastened to the gloves very well. This should be a disease you can prevent by really rigorously adhering to protocols. I think what we're seeing, whether it was the gown or some other mistake was made, what we're seeing is even if teams know what they're doing, there's a protocol. They've ordered the right kind of suits. People have to be well-versed in practicing this. This is about drill, practice and preparedness.

BLITZER: Would it be smart for the U.S. to start secondary screenings of incoming passengers whether at Kennedy Airport in New York, Washington Dulles International Airport, would it be smart to start screening passengers arriving in the United States?

VAN TULLEKEN: I think that's a tricky question. But you're going to get a huge number of false positives. Lots of people come back from holiday or come back from business overseas with a temperature. That's the main way of screening. If we're going to start isolating all of those people, it's going to really slow airports down and make travel very difficult and it probably isn't going to completely prevent Ebola entering the U.S.

Basically, someone could be asymptomatic for 21 days. And if they don't want to tell you their travel history, they're not going to. So in the end, if we really want to keep Ebola out of the U.S., the best place to focus is on rolling it back in West Africa. And all the screening measures, which now, of course, look very politically expedient, I don't think they're going to make a huge difference, to be honest. The place to screen that's very important is before people get on the plane. Because what you don't want is contagious people on planes because it's a very, very, you know, confined crowded environment, it could easily spread on a plane. I think it makes sense before you get on the plane. Once you're off the plane, I don't know how much difference it's going to make.

BLITZER: Unless you've got the symptoms during a 20-hour flight, let's say, from Liberia, stop in Belgium and continue on to Washington or Dallas or whatever. That potentially could make a significant difference.

And I'm a little confused on how contagious Ebola is. Sometimes they say you've got to exchange bodily fluids, if you will, sweat, something like that. On the other hand, if you've been within three feet contact of someone with Ebola, you could be in trouble. Explain the difference there.

VAN TULLEKEN: The question you're asking is -- there's a point we have to say this is very difficult to know. And the reason it's difficult to know, if you imagine how hard it is to get this information, there has been -- there has been relatively little transmission of Ebola in all of human history. And as you collect the data on how each person caught it, it is very, very hard. We have to speculate. It's even hard to determine how long the virus lives outside the body in different conditions. You can find the virus on surfaces, whether or not it's infectious at that point isn't clear.

So the best of our knowledge what we'd say is that people in order to catch Ebola off someone, you have to get bodily fluids onto a mucous membrane, so into a mouth or into the eyes, or you would have to get it into an open sore or cut. And bodily fluids would be saliva, blood, those kinds of things. We do have cases of people catching Ebola wearing the protective gear. I don't think there's any evidence that it's air-borne. But we do have to admit that everything we say about the transmission of Ebola is to the best of our knowledge. You know, this is still something we're studying.

BLITZER: All right. Dr. Alexander van Tulleken, we'll continue this conversation. Unfortunately, the story is not going away.

Thanks very much.

Still to come, in North Korea, the speculation mounting right now. Just days ago, the surprise visit to South Korea, but high-level North Korean officials also missing from that group, of course, the country's top leader, Kim Jong-Un. He hasn't been seen in more than a month. We'll discuss.

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BLITZER: Over the weekend, three high-level North Korean officials made a surprise visit to South Korea for unplanned talks. Earlier today, an exchange of fire between North and South Korea after a North Korean patrol boat crossed into disputed waters. No injuries were reported. All this happening with the North Korean leader, Kim Jong- Un, apparently, nowhere to be found, at least publicly. It's been more than a month since he's been seen in public. And that's raising all kinds of speculations. Is he sick? Has he been toppled?

Brian Todd is looking into the story for us.

Brian, you've been speaking with a lot of experts. What are you hearing?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, from experts, from intelligence officials, it's been widely reported now that Kim Jong-Un probably very likely has some kind of a health problem. He's -- he might have gout. That runs in his family. He might have an ankle problem. You see him limping in this video. That was -- some of the video was taken over the summer. He's last been seen publicly on September 3rd. It's more than a month now he's not been seen publicly. And some of the last video of him in public was showing him limping. So it is widely reported he's got some kind of a health problem, gout, high blood pressure, diabetes run in his family. And it could be -- he's clearly gained weight. That's also clear. He's clearly gained weight since he took power in 2011. So there are reports that maybe a combination of those factors, he's seeking some kind of treatment.

But also, Wolf, what's fueling speculation is -- I spoke to a prominent defector a few days ago. He told me that Kim has been pushed aside. That a shadowy group called the Organization and Guidance Department is really running things behind the scenes. Now, U.S. intelligence officials and analysts we spoke to say they have no evidence of that.

Again, between the limp in public more than a month ago, the fact he hasn't been seen in more than a month, reports of his health problems, plus now this speculation about a possible coup or something like that behind the scenes, it fuels wild speculation about whether he's really in control of the country. And analysts we speak to right now say, look, we just don't know. We're trying to figure out from analysts and defectors what is going on. But it is hard information to come by right now.

BLITZER: And the surprise visit by three North Koreans to South Korea. How did that fit into all this?

TODD: Yeah. It certain fuels the speculation. These are two of the three men that went down there or right underneath Kim Jong-Un. One of them is basically the head of the military, right underneath Kim Jong-Un. And another is a gentleman who deals with all of their relationships with South Korea. These -- it's very, very rare that people this high up go to South Korea. Also, a South Korean official told me a short time ago, they were

shocked, they were surprised that these guys were coming. They only gave them one day's notice before they showed up at the closing of the Asian games. And then they had high-level talks about possibly having further talks down the road about, you know, just some of the -- how the relationship can be improved. So it was a constructive visit, Wolf. But it fuels the speculation as to what's going on, why would they be there.

Now, one analyst said because Kim is not in control and these men had to go and basically, say, to the South, the military's running things and this is the way it is right now. Or it could be that Kim Jong-Un sent them there. That he's simply recuperating and said, look, you have to go and we're going to try to smooth things over and normalize relations a little bit better. And so that could be what's happened.

BLITZER: We'll see if he shows up, Kim Jong-Un, at the 69th anniversary of the founding of the Workers Party.

TODD: Right.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Brian.

More coming up later in "The Situation Room."

I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.