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Microsoft CEO: Women Not Seeking Raise Is "Good Karma"; CEO: Women Have Faith In System To Get Raise; Heisman Hopeful Suspended Indefinitely

Aired October 10, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN GUEST ANCHOR: Now to Microsoft's big fail and I am not talking about computers. I'm talking about its CEO who is being criticized for giving what many call the worst career advice ever.

He said that women not asking for a raise is, quote, "good karma." Today, Satya Nadella apologized saying, he was, quote, "inarticulate." He made the controversial comments at a women in computing conference.

A crowd likely in the know that for every dollar men make, women make 77 cents. Nadella was answering a question by Maria Klawe about how women should ask for a raise. Klawe is a Microsoft board member and president of Harvey Mudd College.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SATYA NADELLA, MICROSOFT CEO: It's not really about asking for the raise, but knowing and having faith that the system will actually give you the right raises as you go along. That I think might be one of the additional superpowers that quite frankly women who don't ask for a raise have because that's good karma.

It will come back because somebody is going to know that's the kind of person that I want to trust. That's the kind of person I want to really give more responsibility to and in the long-term efficiency, things catch up.

I wonder and I'm not saying that's the only approach. I wonder whether taking the long-term helps solve for what might be perceived as this uncomfortable thing of am I getting paid right? Am I getting rewarded right?

Because reality is your best work is not followed with your best reward. Your best work then has impact, people recognize it, and then you get the rewards and so you have to somehow think that through I think.

MARIA KLAWE, PRESIDENT, HARVEY MUDD COLLEGE: Let me tell you a story about myself. This is one of the few things I disagree with you on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And joining me now, Maria Klawe. Now, Maria, we cut you off in that clip there because we want to ask you to tell your story here with us. But let me ask you first, when you heard his answer, what went through your mind?

KLAWE: Well, it was about 45 minutes into a 50-minute interview. It had been an incredibly positive interview. The audience was just loving him. There are 8,000 people in the audience. They were cheering for things he said. There were cheering for things I said.

It was this electric moment and then I asked him this question, and he gives that answer. I'm going, like, Satya, why did you say that? I didn't say that. I just very politely disagreed with him because even though I'm not always very polite, I try to be.

And then I told my own story about how hard I find it to ask for raises and how at least a couple times in my life, I have not done my homework about what the appropriate salary would be well enough.

And I have not been willing to sort of -- when I'm offered a particular salary say I think that's a little bit low given my level of experience and achievement and I think it would be much more appropriate to ask for something like a larger number. So I told that story.

KAYE: So you told this to the crowd after his answer. What was the response? For you to come out and tell them that you feel like you have missed out on some money as well by not asking the right way perhaps.

KLAWE: Yes. I mean, I have to say, first of all, the crowd cheered. I think they were really glad -- they were happy about two things. One thing was that I admitted I'm often seen as a very successful woman and I've been successful in many respects, but I like to be very open about the fact that I fail.

I make mistakes and I try to learn from them and that this was a mistake I had made not just once but twice and that I wanted to give them advice about I do a lot of coaching of women about doing negotiations either for a raise or negotiations for a new position and so I gave them some of that advice.

KAYE: So let me focus here on part of what Nadella said. He said a woman who doesn't ask for a raise is, quote, "The kind of person that I want to trust, the kind of person that I want to really give more responsibility to." It sounds strange to some folks. Is that true in the corporate world? People who don't ask for more money are trusted?

KLAWE: I think the thing we have to keep in context here is that Satya is a very unusual leader from a different background from most corporate CEOs. He brings -- he would have given the same response to an auditorium hall filled with 8,000 men.

It's part of his upbringing in South India. You shouldn't always ask for things for yourself and it is part of how we raise our young women and you're supposed to serve others and do good and be helpful, and you're not supposed to ask for things for yourself.

And if the world were perfect, if this were utopia, such advice would be perfectly fine. The problem is that's not how the corporate world works in our culture and it's true that people who ask for more whether more resources, more responsibilities, promotion or salary increase, they tend to get more.

And so one of the things I feel very strongly about is we should be coaching women and other groups who are underrepresented in the tech industry to be willing to ask.

KAYE: It's a fascinating conversation and certainly has given rise to a whole lot more discussion and conversation about this topic of equal pay. Maria Klawe, I appreciate your time here. Thanks for coming on the show today.

KLAWE: My pleasure. Thanks, Randi.

KAYE: Well, you may recognize the last name of our next guest. Randi Zuckerberg is familiar with corporate boardrooms. We'll ask her if women should leave their careers up to karma as Satya Nadella suggested. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Microsoft CEO apologized not just on Twitter for comments that women should have faith in the system to get a raise. He also sent a mea culpa through a memo to his 128,000 employees saying, quote, "I believe men and women should get equal pay for equal work and when it comes to career advice on getting a raise when you think it's deserved, Maria's advice was the right advice. If you think you deserve a raise, you should just ask."

Joining me now, the founder and CEO of Zuckerberg Media, Randi Zuckerberg, also host of "Dot Complicated" on Sirius XM's business radio. Randi, nice to have you on the program today.

So I guess, first, let me ask you what your reaction was when you heard the comments from Satya Nadella about karma, using karma and relying on karma, instead of asking for a raise?

RANDI ZUCKERBERG, HOST, "DOT COMPLICATED" ON SIRIUS XM: Well, my first reaction was, wow, did he rely on karma to get the CEO position? I'm pretty sure no CEO ever just sat back and let the system take care of itself to get to that position.

But you know, I recently joined the public board of Professional Diversity Network, a company that works with Fortune 500 companies to increase the number of women and minorities they have in the workforce.

This is an issue very close to my heart. I really hope that he feels thoroughly embarrassed by these remarks now that he can actually use the platform of Microsoft for good to put his money where his mouth is and not just his foot in his mouth.

KAYE: Good point. Listen, you've been in the tech world. You've worked in the tech world. I mean, can women rely on karma or do they need something more? ZUCKERBERG: No, nobody can rely on karma in the workforce to get ahead. I think absolutely people need to speak up and be vocal and we need to take a look at some of the systemic measures that are in place right now that are keeping it such that women are only 30 percent of the workforce in these companies.

They are earning 89 percent of what their male counterparts are earning and on average, they're losing half a million dollars over the course of their career because they didn't negotiate out front or ask for raises along the way.

So we need to definitely look at the HR practices that are in place and re-examine some of these old systems.

KAYE: So Nadella, though, he said he made it sound like it was just as simple as asking for it in terms of getting a raise. I mean, when you go for a raise, is it really that simple?

ZUCKERBERG: It's definitely not that simple. Now, I work with a lot of women. I advise a lot of startups here. I think the most crucial time that you have everything in your power is when you're negotiating your entry into a company.

That's the point that women start to lose out to men and I think it's important to remember there are lots of different things that you can negotiate for today. It's not just your base salary. You can negotiate for starting bonuses, performance bonuses, equity and stock.

And while you probably won't go in getting everything you want in all of those categories, there's no reason to just accept an initial offer without negotiating on at least one of those points.

KAYE: So why is it that you think women don't ask for raises enough of the time or don't ask for raises as often as men do?

ZUCKERBERG: I think it's difficult when you're surrounded by men and when you're in a room and when you have folks with this bias like the Microsoft CEO had. It can be very hard to be the person that speaks up.

I talk to a lot of women and they say, you know, I really want to speak up for myself, but I have to pick my battles. This is not the hill that I want to die on. And it's interesting that the news comes on the same news today as Malala winning the Nobel Peace Prize because she stood up and spoke and took action.

So I think it's a bit ironic that we're having these conversations on the same day. But I do think it's incredibly important for women to speak up and ask for raises. You have to go into the conversation with cold hard facts.

You can't go in being emotional and saying I deserve a raise because I work hard because I deserve it. You have to show the value that --

KAYE: What should you say? ZUCKERBERG: Walk in with value that you brought to the company. Here were your expectations for me. Here's how I over delivered. Here is how the company benefited from it and here are the market stats for what someone in my position should be earning. Make it about the data and not the emotions.

KAYE: That's a good point because a lot of women probably do go in making it about emotion because we're emotional beings, aren't we?

ZUCKERBERG: That's exactly right. In fact, I was watching "Shark Tank" and I saw two young women saying why should you invest in me and they were saying because we work hard, because we're good people. We deserve it. Investor said that doesn't actually get you an investment for being a good person.

What gets you an investment is showing data and numbers and business and I think that's an important thing for a lot of women to take into account when you walk into that room for your performance review, it's not an emotional decision. It's a business decision. So make it about why it's a good business decision for your company to keep you there.

KAYE: Yes. Just very quickly, do you believe that we will close the gap in pay?

ZUCKERBERG: I do believe we will. Hopefully in a hundred years from now we'll be laughing, talking about that time that men played a role in computing. Otherwise, if not, we can leave it up to karma.

KAYE: All right. Karma is a good thing. All right, Randi Zuckerberg, thank you so much. Nice to speak with you.

ZUCKERBERG: Nice to speak with you too, Randi. Thanks.

KAYE: Coming next, it may be the one feel good story of the NFL this season. First, the team and then a league rallies in support of a Cincinnati bengals player whose daughter is fighting for her life. Rachel Nichols joins us with her interview with Devon Still.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: One of the leading candidates for the Heisman trophy has been dealt what could be a crippling blow to his college football career. The University of Georgia has indefinitely suspended its star runningback, Todd Gurley, because of an ongoing NCAA investigation.

Now I won't give many details, but SI.com reports that Gurley was paid $400 for signing memorabilia on campus earlier this year. Head Coach Mark Richt said, "I'm obviously very disappointed. The important thing for our team is to turn all our attention toward preparation for Missouri."

The host of CNN's "UNGUARDED" Rachel Nichols is joining me now to talk about this. So getting paid for memorabilia certain is a big deal.

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN HOST, "UNGUARDED": Well, I mean, it is to the NCAA although the word that most people use when discussing these rules and the NCAA is hypocrisy. Because let me tell you, Randi, Georgia can make money off his jersey. In fact, they're still selling Todd Gurley's jersey on their web site right now.

They are selling all kinds of Todd Gurley memorabilia. So they can make money off his likeness, his name, but it is currently against NCAA rules for Todd Gurley to make any likeness off of himself, off of the fact that he is such an electrifying player that people want his stuff. So now what he did is clearly against the rules.

KAYE: He knew it.

NICHOLS: He knew it. We can't say, gosh, he was screwed by the man or anything like that. I mean, he knew the rules were there and he broke them. But the reason that we see frankly more and more athletes breaking these rules is the unfairness of it all has just boiled to the surface. And the feeling across sports at this point is these rules have to change because there's no balance here.

KAYE: Well, especially when you look at the other star players, including the current Heisman trophy winner, James Winston, who's been accused of worse things, like sexual assault. He didn't even get the same kind of punishment.

NICHOLS: Yes, and the imbalance there too is that while James Winston was being investigated for sexual assault, he was allowed to still play. The report came in to the Tallahassee police in December. He was allowed to play through and in fact, was awarded, you know, Heisman trophy on and on after that.

Now Todd Gurley has not been convicted so to speak by the NCAA. They haven't had a finding. They are just investigating him, but he has been asked to sit down. It's an interesting double standard.

KAYE: So is Gurley finished, do you think, as a Heisman hopeful?

NICHOLS: Right now, the word is suspended indefinitely. Initially the thought was maybe two or three games. Now reports have surfaced in the past few hours that maybe he could be done for the entire season. This is a huge blow not just to Georgia, but certainly the SEC, the most popular conference in all of college football.

And frankly, this was the guy this year. This was the most electrifying player we saw on the field in the sport. So the fact that he is now going to be pulled off for a while and maybe he's done is a big blow to college football fans across the country.

KAYE: All right, so let's end on an up note. We saw this touching struggle faced by the Bengals' defensive tackle, Devin Still, whose little daughter is gravely ill. What can you tell us about that?

NICHOLS: Yes, if you were one of the 20 million people who tuned in to Sunday night football last week, the number one rated show on television, you probably saw the moment that football stopped mattering. They stopped the whole game and put up Devin Still's little girl, Leah. She's 4 years old. She has pediatric cancer. This game was in New England. The Patriots stopped the game. They had their cheerleaders put on number 75, Devin Still, jerseys and do a tribute to Leah.

And all those jerseys when they are sold, they are donating all the proceeds to pediatric cancer. So his jersey has become the number one selling Bengals jersey, which is so cool. We were able to catch up with Devin on our show "UNGUARDED." Take a listen as we check in with him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICHOLS: Leah's tumor was in her abdomen. You posted this great video of you giving her a little pep talk on the way to the hospital then you posted her picture after her 6-hour surgery to remove the tumor. Give us the update now. How is she doing right now?

DEVIN STILL, BENGAL'S DEFENSIVE TACKLE: She's doing pretty well. She starts her last round of chemo this Friday. They gave her an extra week to get rehydrated and gain her weight back so the chemo doesn't have a big effect on her this time around. So hopefully the chemo goes good and is able to take away some of the cancer cells that spread throughout her body.

NICHOLS: I know things are looking up, but I can't imagine when you first heard the news from doctors about her cancer. They only give her a 50-50 chance to survive. What was the hardest moment for you? You had to explain all this to her, just go through it as a parent?

STILL: I think the hardest moment for me was listening to the doctor tell me I only had half a chance of having my daughter in my life. That was hard on me and hard on her mother as well and the rest of our family.

As a parent, you never want to hear that your child only has a 50 percent chance of living. You want to always hear that they have a 100 percent chance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NICHOLS: So many negative stories, right, Randi, about the NFL the past few months. You know, we've seen all this bad stuff. The Cincinnati Bengals actually cut Devin Still this summer for football reasons.

But because of this situation with his daughter, they actually re- signed him to the practice squad just so he could keep his health insurance. How great is that? There are still good stories in football.

KAYE: I love his little fist bump so sweet. Rachel, thank you. Appreciate it. Of course, be sure to watch "UNGUARDED" tonight, 10:30 Eastern Time right here on CNN. You don't want to miss that.

I'm Randi Kaye. Thanks for watching today. Enjoy your Friday. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper begins right after a very quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)