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Police and America: Mending the Relationship

Aired October 11, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. You are in a special edition of the CNN NEWSROOM. And over the next 30 minutes, we will discuss the relationship between law enforcement and the communities they serve and at what point did it come to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA (voice-over): The weekend of resistance under way in Missouri.

Protesters speaking out about what they call an epidemic of police violence facing minority communities. All brought to a head by the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson this summer. Since then there have been similar cases all across the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I see your license please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car, get out of the car!

CABRERA: In South Carolina a state trooper opens fire at an unarmed black man at a traffic stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you going to do, son? Are you hit?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so. I can't feel my leg. I don't know what happened.

CABRERA: In Indiana a standoff between police and the passengers inside the car they pulled over ends like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not the operator of this vehicle so you -- if you do that -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I'm not the operator of this vehicle -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to open the door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say somebody's going to hurt you. People are getting shot by the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh!

CABRERA: A window smashed. One passenger tazed in front of two children sitting in the back seat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told you all my kids are in the car, man. Why would you all do that?

CABRERA: Then this in New York.

A police officer stops a teen on suspicious of smoking marijuana and then punches him so hard he's knocked unconscious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You knocked him out! You knocked him out!

CABRERA: Then again in Missouri. Angry protests erupt after an off- duty patrolman shot and killed a black teen. Police say he shot at them first and a weapon was found at the scene but witnesses and the family say he was just holding a sandwich.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: So when did police forget their maybe duty was to protect and serve the community? And when did the community forget to respect the men and women behind the badge? How often are these statements even true?

Joining me to discuss Kevin Jackson, executive director of the Black Sphere. Security specialist Rashid Abdul Salaam, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Holly Hughes and CNN commentator Mel Robbins. I want to start by reading you all a quote from op-ed by CNN commentator and defense attorney for George Zimmerman, Mark O'Mara.

He said this, and I quote, "consider the very first interaction. A cop and a young black male interact on the street and both give the other a bit of attitude. The officer gives some attitude because he's tired of getting attitude from other young men and the young man gives some attitude, well, because he's tired of getting attitude from other cops. Now, who's at fault? This as simple as it sounds is how it starts. If you want to say the cop is at fault because he's the adult with training you are right. If you want to say the young man is at fault for disrespect or mistrust of the cop's authority, you are right."

So Kevin, let's start with you. Is this the root of the problems do you think or the dynamics that we're seeing in places like Ferguson, Missouri?

KEVIN JACKSON, BLACK SPHERE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Well, I mean, that probably oversimplifies it a little bit. You have to understand the young man who claims that he's being harassed a lot isn't being harassed as much as the cop who is constantly dealing with the general public.

I mean, his role every day is - and day after day is to deal with people who are in some cases the worst part of our society. So, you've got to cut the police some slack in that regard. The second part of it that I think a lot of people overlooked is the police become regular citizens when they're off of the police force. They become regular citizens like us.

We talked to a 28-year veteran today who made the comment that he does exactly what we would do when he's stopped by the cops until he can make sure that they understand that he is indeed a police officer. So, it isn't a one-way street and I think that probably oversimplifies it a bit.

CABRERA: OK. Well, that makes a good point. Rashid, we know this week the U.S. attorney general did call, though, for a broad review of police tactics, technique and training across the country. Some have - some police departments do you think lost touch with the communities they serve?

RASHID ABDUL-SALAAM, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR & SECURITY SPECIALIST: Well, it's apparent that there's a disconnect but there's responsibility to mend that gap on both sides. One of the things that the community can do to try to initiate to interface with the departments is to get involved. Try to initiate a citizens review board and to connect with the departments.

There are progressive cities that have this type of mechanism in place. Where the police are accountable to the citizens. The citizens can give their input and they can make recommendations as far as applicants, as far as the disciplinary procedures, and they are - they are being alerted and aware as to what is going on with their departments.

One thing that the departments can do is they need to recruit in the minority communities. There are many departments that have the junior deputies program. The junior police cadet programs. These programs need to be initiated and introduced in middle school, before you get to the high school age. If they do these things effectively we can start to develop a dialogue and a connection between the citizens and the police department. The police departments are necessary apparatus for our society. But the participation from the community is essential as well.

CABRERA: I like that we're already talking about potential solutions, but right now when you look at the situation there in St. Louis, in Ferguson, Mel, it unfortunately appears that any officer-involved incident whether it was justified or not seems to intensify the tensions in that zone in particular, more protests, more violent reactions. Do you think that's fair to say?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: I think you are absolutely right, Ana, and I love what both gentlemen just had to say and I look forward to being able to talk about the solutions, but let's talk about the reality. And the reality is that things are at a boiling point. And you started off the segment, Ana, by talking about a comment that Mark O'Mara made.

He's a very good friend of mine in full disclosure and he and I were talking two nights ago about both of us feeling this fear that tensions are at a boiling point. Not only in Missouri but also around the country, where so many communities where the police are supposed to be protecting and serving are not doing that. The people are feeling profiled. They're feeling - I mean, just look at that nauseating video that happened to Jamal Jones when he was sitting as a passenger in a car. So, saying that - there's a lot that we can do, but I think we have to acknowledge that this is a powder keg that is ready to explode and that any incident whatsoever in particular that involves a white officer and a young African-American male and any kind of shooting or violence is going to ignite what is a very, very raw and sore subject. And, you know, you also said something, Ana, that I thought was really interesting about the fact that both the officer and both the teenager are in the right and in the wrong.

And what I would say is that it does come down to those moment-to- moment interactions. And in every moment you have the opportunity to either escalate a situation or deescalate it. And I think it is the police's job in every single situation to deescalate it, not escalate it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct.

CABRERA: Holly, I want to throw another curveball into this -

JACKSON: If I may interject.

CABRERA: Oh, sure. Please go ahead, Kevin.

JACKSON: Yes, to the point of your guest there, you know, she was talking about the incident where the young man and his wife or what have you were headed to the - supposedly headed to the hospital and the cop ended up breaking the window.

If you watch that video, that cop is very professional. He asks multiple times for the young man to show his license. And I mean, I don't know how he could have done that situation any differently and finally when it got to the point where it was completely uncooperative and it went on for minutes he busted the glass and everything else happened.

ROBBINS: Actually, that's not true.

JACKSON: I'd like to finish. There's a perfect scenario where - there's a perfect scenario where the cop did exactly what he was supposed to do. He played it by the book. It was an uncooperative person and then he does something and everybody says, "oh, that's an appalling situation." It was an appalling situation brought on by the activity of someone who very simply could have deescalated to use her terminology by just handing over his license and it turned out he had an ankle bracelet.

CABRERA: Let's get Holly into this conversation, too, what's your take, Holly?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, everybody makes valid points and actually Rashid and I work together here in Atlanta but one thing we haven't discussed is not only can we bring the police in and have them participate a little more with the community, but the prosecutor's office, something we do here in Atlanta, we have community prosecution and we are at this point because both sides feel like they have valid points that are not being heard. So, what we have here, we have prosecutors, we have offices in those neighborhoods that feel disenfranchised, that feel like they're not getting respected or being protected as they should and there are neighborhood planning units and there are meetings where the prosecutor, the police department, the fire department, every local agency come together and it is a safe haven for those people, the neighbors to come in and say, "this is how we are being treated by police and we don't like it."

So you can bring all of those agencies in and if people felt as if they were being heard, you may see some of these incidents reduced because they've had an opportunity to go and register their complaints, you know, this police officer is a bully on the street, or this particular person is a problem in the neighborhood.

What we find with our community prosecution offices is a lot of times the defendants that the police has a problem with the neighborhood has a problem with. Look, we don't like him hanging out here either. So, you know, let's work together to come up with a solution so that we don't have young men feeling threatened when they're doing nothing wrong and police officers who quite frankly are putting their lives on the line every single day with an unknown quantity.

CABRERA: It's an important discussion -

HUGHES: - we need to bring everybody together.

CABRERA: - for sure that we need to continue discussing it here and discussing it in our own communities. We're going to continue the conversation after the break.

Why does it appear that we are seeing more cases like the ones we just discussed? Are they happening more often? Is it social media? Or have the views of the country shifted when it comes to dealing with crime? We'll discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Criminal justice issues have long been a hot topic when it comes to elections in America both national and local. But should the conversation about relations with police be part of the everyday conversation and not simply an election year talking point?

Let me bring back my panel now to talk about it. Kevin Jackson, Mel Robbins, we've got Holly Hughes and Rashid Abdul-Salaam. Rashid, do you think the recent outcry that we're seeing does that show Americans maybe have shifting attitudes towards policing and mass incarceration?

ABDUL-SALAAM: That's an obvious shift that began with the Rodney King verdict and then it was continued with the O.J. Simpson case. Those two cases were very - the transition of the disconnect of trust between the black community particularly and the police department is nowhere is it more obvious than in the Rodney King beating and the verdict and in the investigation that occurred in the O.J. Simpson case. These things, these incidents, were the hot topics where you can see the trend begin at that time. The numbers decreased from the number of minorities that got involved in police departments and these incidents have mushroomed since those two particular cases.

CABRERA: Holly, playing devil's advocate, maybe it's not just about race. I talked to several people in the greater St. Louis community who say that there is a socioeconomic and an education divide that plays into all of this. Do you think the justice system is unfairly stacked against those who are less fortunate?

HUGHES: Of course, it is. Ana, there's no getting around it. Yes, it absolutely is. And let's bear in mind, too, I know we're saying that the African-American community doesn't trust the police. But there are African-American police officers, too, a lot of whom are friends of mine, and they are just as much in fear of what is going down in the streets.

And that's why we need to have these conversations and bring everybody to the table prior to these escalations. Because African-American officers get shot, too, but they get shot by white kids, by black kids, by everybody so we can't just narrow it down. We need to talk about the issue as a whole and the issue is are the police acting as bullies or are they not?

And if they are, then what can be done to retrain them and change that attitude. Because it's not just across the board white versus black. It is the people versus the police in a lot of these instances, Ana, and that's what's frightening.

CABRERA: And I don't even think we're talking just about black African-American, that minority group, but really a broader minority group when you look at the Hispanic population in this country. I've talked to many of those folks who believe that the sort of disenfranchisement, of course, and there's also another element that's playing into all of this in this day and age with technology and I want to talk a little bit about the role of social media.

Pew Research, we do know, just broke down twitter demos and found that blacks and Hispanics are more than likely than whites to use Twitter. When you looked at the outrage that's happened on social media fueling sort of the fire and the movement that we're seeing in places like Ferguson or St. Louis, Kevin, do you think that's making a big difference and really having an impact?

JACKSON: No doubt about it. Here in St. Louis they actually, the police had to change their frequency and they had to essentially scramble it so that people were not able to know what their tactics were going to be. I want to go back to what Holly said, I completely agree with her, you know, on a lot of the points. This has been so politicized when it's time for an election you've got, you know, the politicians siding with the people and trying to draw out the vote.

But the minute that's over they want the police and the police unions and they want to appear to be tough on crime. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. When this is all said and done and the hoopla is over, blacks are going to go back to the very unsafe neighborhoods, I happen to live in one, and cops are going to be on high alert because we've allowed people to believe that cops are bad and everybody else is apparently behaving very well.

And we know that that's counterintuitive because it's just not the case. So, yes, it has to be balanced. I definitely believe that there are times when the police make mistakes and they need to be held accountable, but they're one of the only groups who when they make mistakes, it's public. If Anheuser-Busch's employees do something wrong we never hear about it but when the police do something wrong, we're going to hear about it. And social media certainly is one of the avenues.

CABRERA: So how do we fix all this? Panel stick around and weigh in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Mel, let's start with you. What's the fix?

ROBBINS: Well, Kevin, Rashid, and Holly have already talked to this very well. The fix when there's a divided community is to find ways to align yourself. It's absolutely essential that the police in Ferguson and the community need to find ways both through education programs of the school, community watch programs in the neighborhoods and more day-to-day interactions between the community and the police to find the things that draw them together versus all these things tearing them apart.

Second I think this is very important, there needs to be a voter turnout push in Ferguson because part of the problem is with frustration is they don't feel represented.

CABRERA: Right.

ROBBINS: Yet you look at the number of people voting and there's extremely low turnout so they've got to do some advocacy there, Ana.

CABRERA: Kevin, you are there in that community. What do you think needs to happen? Because when I was there talking to protesters and those who are so angry against law enforcement they don't feel still like their voices are being heard. But I also got the sense that they are not necessarily open to a hand that's reached out to them.

JACKSON: Yes. Well, I think that, you know, we've got to really balance things and we've got to be truthful on both sides of the discussion. The police need to look at what their tactics are. I think the cameras on the cops would be a good suggestion - you know, a good alternative. But I also think the community has to take responsibility and say look we know what's happening in our communities and stop lying to ourselves.

I think if we are truthful about that and can have that discussion to all the panelists' points I think we can make some progress. CABRERA: Rashid we know in Ferguson at least they are wearing body cameras police as well as citizens if you can believe it. There is a civil review board that is being established in that community. So, these are some of the solutions that are trying to be implemented but yet we're seeing all these protests and all this outrage, how long is a solution long term going to take?

ABDUL-SALAAM: Cultural sensitivity training on the part of the police departments and participation on the part of the communities. This is the blend that will change this. You talk about police - you talk about cameras and body cameras. Cameras just record crimes. It doesn't deter crimes so it's going to record these atrocities that are done to the people so let's not put too much weight in a camera.

I haven't seen a camera stop a crime yet. It just records it. Participation. Cultural sensitivity training on the part of these departments and we'll be able to bring the citizens and these departments together with this formula. I'm convinced.

CABRERA: Holly, what do you think beyond moving prosecutor offices into individual communities, is there something more, more action that law enforcement and the judicial system can take?

HUGHES: I think it comes down to two things, respect and communication, Ana. And both sides, I know you asked me about law enforcement, but both sides need to be willing to listen to another perspective. I think we get so entrenched that we're right, we're right, we're right and when our ego gets into it we're not willing to listen to what the other side has to say and that is why if you can open up these meetings, have all your members of the community come in and give them the opportunity to be heard.

If we can understand there's another perspective out there, then maybe we can start judging each other and Martin Luther King said it best, "I want to be judged on the content of my character," right? And not the color of my skin, so we need to listen to what the other side has to say. And I think that's what's missing, Ana. We're so entrenched in our ego. I'm right. You may be right, but it may get you shot trying to prove that point -

CABRERA: I'm hearing you, Holly. We all need to listen not just talk when we're talking about the communication. All of you, thank you so much for being with me. We got to go.

CNN NEWSROOM continues at the top of the hour. "SANJAY GUPTA MD" begins right after this.

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