Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Nurse with Ebola Identified, Received Blood Transfusion from Ebola Survivor; Could Baghdad Fall?; ISIS Advancing in Iraq, Syria; Heated Debate on the Principles of Islam; Right to Die with Dignity?

Aired October 13, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Tonight, breaking news: my exclusive interview with a neighbor of the Dallas nurse who is the first to be infected with Ebola not in Africa, but in this country. That nurse is 26-year-old Nina Pham, who helped treat Thomas Eric Duncan. She has gotten a blood transfusion from Ebola survivor Dr. Kenneth Brantly.

And as you look at these pictures, you may be wondering, what's going to happen to Nina Pham's dog? Her dog's name is Bentley. We're going to have the very latest on that.

Meantime, NBC's Dr. Nancy Snyderman, whose cameraman is being treated for Ebola, is apologizing for breaking quarantine. But are hospitals in this country up to speed on Ebola, or will more health care workers get sick?

Also, barbarians at the gate. Is Baghdad about to fall to ISIS? And what about the terrorists' claims that they're justified in kidnapping women as sex slaves? I'm going to talk to the man who famously blasted radical Islam on Bill Maher's show. His name is Sam Harris.

And millions of people have seen a 29-year-old brain cancer patient's passionate defense of her right to die. Tonight we have the experts on both sides of this debate. We have a lot to get to this evening. And I want to begin with the woman who has asked us only to use her first name. Her first name is Heather.

She's a neighbor of Dallas nurse Nina Pham and she joins us now.

So, Heather, how are you doing?

HEATHER, NEIGHBOR OF EBOLA PATIENT: Yes, I'm good. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you for coming on.

Tell me, what happened yesterday morning? How did you find out you that lived in the same apartment complex as Nina Pham?

HEATHER: So I got a knock at 5:30 in the morning, and I slept through it. And so my friend called me at 8:30 and she told me to look outside, and there was media everywhere. And so then, based on our Google searches, we kind of pieced it together, what was going on.

LEMON: And you say that your apartment complex, your building has been decontaminated several times. How many times?

HEATHER: It's been decontaminated twice.

LEMON: Twice. Have they talked to you about or given you any information about Ebola?

HEATHER: Yes.

So Dallas Health Services, Dallas P.D., they have passed out pamphlets, you know, just basically describing Ebola, Ebola 101, just various facts about transmission, you know, what Ebola is in general. And so, yes, that's what we received.

LEMON: Did they tell you what to do if you start to feel sick?

HEATHER: Yes. And so there's various numbers you can call for local resources and hospitals that you can reach out to if you do begin to feel symptoms.

LEMON: So I'm told that authorities knocked on your door to alert you about nurse Pham. Others in your community received a reverse 911 call. I want you to listen, and then we will talk about it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be advised that a health care worker who lives in your area has tested positive for the Ebola virus. This individual is in the hospital and is isolated. Precautions are already in place to clean all known potential areas of contact to ensure public health.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: That would scare the heck out of me and I think most people.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Do you think authorities are doing a good job communicating with the community, and did it scare you?

HEATHER: Yes.

I mean, it was certainly unnerving to realize that I lived in the same building as Nina. I don't know Nina, but, I mean, just given the vicinity, and there's still so much we don't know about Ebola in general. But I didn't receive that message.

You know, I got more of a pamphlet, and then I actually spoke with officials themselves. And so they gave me, I guess, a more watered- down version of that, just that they were doing all they can to protect me and to protect the community.

LEMON: So you think they're doing a pretty good job? HEATHER: Yes. They seem pretty thorough.

They have been in and out of the building in hazmat suits. And today they were doing who knows what out back. There was tarps and hazmat suits and barrels. And so it seems like they are taking -- you know, they are decontaminating the common areas, taking that very seriously, and then focused on her apartment as well.

LEMON: Hey, I have a couple quick questions here before I let you go. You said you don't know Nina, but do you remember seeing her around the building?

HEATHER: Yes. Yes, I do. You know, she lived right next to the back door. And so when I was exiting the building, I would see her sometimes.

LEMON: Are you or are people in your complex talking about, concerned about getting Ebola?

HEATHER: I mean, I think that there is that fear factor.

But I am taking comfort in the fact that she is, you know, reported to be in stable condition and that, you know, Ebola to our knowledge is not airborne. And so now that the surfaces are decontaminated, you know, I'm hoping that risks are fairly -- chances of contracting it are fairly low.

LEMON: So people aren't freaking out around the complex; you're taking it in stride?

HEATHER: Yes. Well, I mean, the complex is pretty dead. And so maybe everyone just fled the place and my friend and I are the only two left. I mean, that's a possibility as well.

LEMON: You think people moved out?

HEATHER: Well, I mean, it doesn't seem like there's many people there. But today was also a workday. And so I don't know their whereabouts.

LEMON: Heather, thank you very much. Good luck. Keep us updated. OK?

HEATHER: Yes, of course. Thank you.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Dr. Sue Hubbard. She is a pediatrician who practices right across the street from Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital, where tensions are really running high tonight.

Doctor, good to have you on. You live in Dallas and you work as a pediatrician there. What is the reaction in your city tonight?

DR. SUE HUBBARD, PEDIATRICIAN: I do. I practice directly across the street from Presbyterian in private practice, and I have had many patients called and used the words -- some have -- panicked, alarmed, frightened. But I really feel more that we should be aware and concerned and that

panic is not the right word for this.

LEMON: So you said many people are calling. Families are concerned. What are you hearing from them specifically?

HUBBARD: Right before I left the office this evening, I had a patient call who actually has a child that goes to day care in this complex, and she said, would you please assure me that I can send my child to day care? That's one example.

We have also had patients who are concerned about even coming to our offices. And, again, I have told them that as much as we know about Ebola virus is that this is not an airborne virus like flu and the rhinoviruses and enterovirus that we're also concerned about at this time of year.

LEMON: What are you advising families to do, then, when they call and they have those concerns? You're saying, listen, as far as we know it's not airborne. But what are you advising them to do?

HUBBARD: I'm advising them to do the same things that we always talk about in terms of hand hygiene, cough hygiene, because I'm concerned about airborne viruses, and then also paying attention to media reports and the CDC that's keeping all of us informed about what's going on with this virus.

And, again, I reiterate to them, I think the most important thing as a parent with children is to get your child vaccinated against diseases that we can prevent, and especially at this time of year, flu vaccine is so important. We know that children die from flu every year, in fact, 105 last year. And this is the time of year we're ramping up for these other viruses that we are equally if not more so concerned about.

LEMON: So the CDC says it's going to increase training and make hospitals -- quote -- "think Ebola." I don't know if you heard Thomas Frieden today. He said think Ebola. What does that mean to you?

HUBBARD: Well, in our practice, we began last week with good history taking because we see actually thousands of children a year who are ill. We're in a practice of 13 pediatricians, a very busy practice. So we have many kids that come in with fever, headache, vomiting, diarrhea, all of these viral symptoms.

So we are questioning every patient about any travel as a screening process that's on every note now, and then questioning them further if they have been traveling outside the United States exactly where they have traveled because that's equally important.

LEMON: So, Doctor, listen, Nina Pham, the nurse said and the hospital saying they took every precaution, she took every precaution, she had gloves, she had goggles, she had shields, she was wearing a suit.

So then how would she get it if they're taking every single precaution? For most Americans who are watching and paying attention here, there are just too many unknowns, Doctor.

HUBBARD: Well, I'm not going to speculate on what happened in the hospital. I wasn't there. I did not take care of any of the patients. And I think that, again, we are going to follow procedures as we have learned more about this illness and learned from all the things that are happening around the world, because we know that this virus is containable.

Nigeria's done a good job in Africa. But we need to have more and more information. And I think, again, the CDC is going to be the leader on this in teaching us. And we locally want to learn as well. I think it's important because as we have children coming into our practice with concerns. If there are things we should be doing as we get into this viral season, then we need to be aware of that as well.

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much, Dr. Hubbard.

I want to bring in now our Dr. Sanjay Gupta to help us separate Ebola fact from fear here, Doctor. And you have been doing a really good job of that. Thank you for joining us again tonight here on CNN TONIGHT.

You know, I just spoke to that local Doctor. But, seriously, how did Nina Pham possibly get Ebola? You and I have been talking about, you know, taking the protocol and getting the suit on and off, the gloves and all of that. How did she possibly get it?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, they refer to this term breach in protocol, which, you know, sounds like it's sort of blaming the person who did the breach, and it's not really meant to do that.

But at some point in the whole process, infected bodily fluids got on her skin. We know how Ebola transmits. We know that scientifically. So at some point, that happened.

And I can tell you, Don, it was interesting. I sort of went through this exercise myself earlier today just to look at the exact CDC protocols in terms of gowning, in terms of taking off the gown. And I was actually a little surprised. I compared it to what I saw in West Africa. First of all, not all my skin is covered here. That's a potential problem. And then just the -- I used some chocolate sauce there to sort of give an example of what contaminated gloves and contaminated gown may look like.

And I realized just doing that process there were a couple places where you could get an exposure. So it can happen a lot easier than you can imagine. And Ebola is not forgiving. Just a small amount can cause an infection.

LEMON: Is it very -- is it as simple as having a scratch on your skin or maybe a nick from doing your fingernails or something like that? Is it just that simple?

GUPTA: It can be. In fact, it's interesting you bring up that example, Don. When I was

in Guinea, I remember one of the doctors came up to me one of the days and he literally had this sort of cut, small cut on his finger, something that looked rather inconsequential, and he was told that he was grounded. He could not go into the Ebola camps until that was healed up.

So, yes, we all have breaks in our skin. Even if you look at your hands right now and you think, ah, my hands look fine, we all have breaks in our skin. And if your hands were to come in contact with some of this infected fluid, you could potentially get an infection that way.

LEMON: Even something, I would imagine, maybe I'm wrong, as small as a paper cut? I don't know.

GUPTA: Yes, any break in the skin.

And that's the difference I think between Ebola and a lot of other diseases. It's highly infectious. And I know you and I have talked about this, so you will forgive me. But highly infectious means something different than highly contagious. Highly contagious, you think airborne, spreading through the air easily. Highly infectious means just a small amount can cause an infection. And that's what Ebola is.

LEMON: So the question is, we're surprised, many people were surprised early on that she got a blood transfusion from Dr. Kenneth Brantly's blood. Why are they doing that?

GUPTA: This is an interesting thing. And it's been done in Africa before where you didn't have a lot of options for treatment. We still don't have FDA-approved treatment options.

What the hope is, Don, is pretty simple. If someone had Ebola and they survived it, their body makes antibodies, makes Ebola-fighting cells that if you then take that blood and give it to somebody else, their body could now have these Ebola-fighting cells.

That's basically the premise of it. What you have got to find is someone who's a blood match. And in this case, Dr. Kent Brantly, you remember him, Don, he came -- he was the first patient. He was a match. And it was his blood that she received today.

LEMON: We have been talking about, should hospitals be designated hospitals for Ebola patients?

Do you think, Sanjay, that Thomas Eric Duncan should have been moved to one of the four hospitals in the United States that are really designed to sort of handle Ebola? Do you think that Nina Pham should be moved as well?

GUPTA: You know, Don, this is a tough question. And I will say I don't know the answer to this for sure.

And we're learning as we go along. What I would say to you is that Nina got this blood transfusion over there at Dallas hospital. There wasn't any of the experimental therapy, ZMapp, available. Otherwise, it may have been available to both Mr. Duncan and her as well.

I think the treatments can be done, I think, in other hospitals. Keep in mind, again, there's not a specific known treatment for Ebola. What's become a little concerning is these secondary infections, a nurse getting an infection like this. You know, Don, when I was in West Africa, the Doctors Without Borders had been taking care of patients in remote areas in Central and West Africa for decades during these Ebola outbreaks, and up until this year, there was not a single transmission from a patient to a health care worker, not one.

And this is in really, really tough spots in Central and West Africa. Why it has happened at a very good hospital in Dallas, it's surprising. It's not acceptable. I almost think that the Doctors Without Borders who work in the field should now focus on the United States and train in these hospitals as well.

LEMON: All right, Doctor. You're going to come back and we're going to talk. I'm going to ask you something that we -- you and I discussed, but we didn't on the air, and that was about mutation. So stand by. We're going to talk about that, the possibility of that.

When we come right back, are America's health care workers equipped to deal with Ebola? I will talk to a top nurse who says workers are desperate for better training.

Plus, the man whose argument against Islam on Bill Maher's show has gone viral. Sam Harris is here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: News that nurse Nina Pham has tested positive for Ebola has spread fear throughout Dallas and across the country.

And it raises a question, are health workers equipped to battle Ebola?

Joining me now is Deborah Burger, the co-president of National Nurses United, and also a doctor here with us is Dr. Alexander van Tulleken, a senior fellow of the Institute for International Humanitarian Affairs. And joining us a little bit later again will be CNN's medical correspondent, chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. He will join us in just a moment.

So, Dr. Alexander, you brought some gloves here and you brought also a suit that's similar, right, to the ones that are being used. Take us through. What do you think happened when we talk about breaches in protocol? Show us.

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: It's really interesting.

The first thing to say is the protocols are quite ambiguous. OK? There are two different CDC protocols which they could be using. And they don't specify the kind of gloves. Now, the kind of gloves we have got here are vinyl gloves. And these are widely used in hospitals. They're quite brittle and then the same -- they're transparent.

So if you puncture this you can't see through your skin. So it's possible she had a break in the glove. You can feel, if you put it on, they will snap very easily. And if you get a small nick in the skin there, you can see it's the same color as the skin, so much harder to see than a purple glove would be.

(CROSSTALK)

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes, exactly.

LEMON: Yes. Right. You can't really see that. You're right.

VAN TULLEKEN: But even if you don't have a break in the glove, even if the glove's intact, in taking them off, the idea is that you would take off one glove, hold it in the hand of this glove, and then with the other bare hand remove it.

And you can see the opportunities for contamination there are very significant.

LEMON: Yes. I was just talking to Dr. Gupta about that. And he said even if you have a break in your skin, he says it's not I guess highly transmittable, but it's highly -- not highly contagious, it's but highly infectious, and that is a big difference.

And then so what about the suit? This isn't the suit but it's similar to the one that they wear. Is this enough?

VAN TULLEKEN: So what's interesting is that the CDC protocol, your head doesn't have to be covered. So I think Sanjay's point was really interesting, that when he was in Liberia, he was dressed differently to the way he's dressed following CDC protocol in an American hospital.

Now, there is a logic to that. The logic is the easier you make it to get your gear on and get it off again, the fewer mistakes you can make. And it's also easier to not make mistakes with patients. So if you're wearing a full hazmat suit, it's east to get needle stick injuries, to trick over -- bump into stuff.

LEMON: This isn't the one, I think, Sanjay, that we're looking at.

This is you in Guinea. Right? And then so that's a different one. And then the one you did today here at CNN was a different one, and I think we can show the difference if we -- and that's the one today.

The protocols are different. And, again, we will talk to Sanjay in a little bit, but I want to go to Deborah first.

Deborah, nurses are really on the front lines here. And there is a concern now that Nina Pham contracted Ebola from Thomas Eric Duncan. Nurses are saying now we need more training, we need better equipment. And they don't feel safe.

DEBORAH BURGER, CO-PRESIDENT, NATIONAL NURSES UNITED: You're right. We do not feel safe. We have been doing surveys of our hospitals. We

have over 745 hospital nurses -- hospital sites responding saying that clearly 80 percent of the nurses still to this day have not been given any information about Ebola.

If they have, they have not any ability to practice, drill, train with the hands-on equipment that they're going to be using and the protective gear, and that they don't have the supplies they need even for just a flu epidemic in our communities. And so we are concerned.

LEMON: And 85 percent say that their hospital has not provided education on Ebola; 40 percent say their hospital has insufficient current supplies of eye protection for daily use of their unit. And then 38 percent say there are insufficient supplies of fluid-resistant impermeable gowns in their hospital.

That's serious stuff when you're on the front lines.

Doctor, what do you make of how nurses are feeling now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

GUPTA: That's very -- obviously very concerning. You don't want to hear that.

It's striking, Don, as much as we talk about vaccine trials and experimental medications. But what we're talking about there is bread and butter stuff. That's the low-hanging fruit. If we can't get that right, it makes me more concerned that we're going to get the other stuff right.

I will say that this idea that you could simply -- if someone doesn't feel comfortable and you're asking them to go take care of a patient with Ebola, they haven't been trained, just the adrenaline, the anxiety from all that, I think the chance of making an error does go up.

So you want them to feel as comfortable as possible.

LEMON: Dr. Gupta, I want to get to the conversation we had last week about mutation, because there is some concern that maybe Ebola has mutated and health officials are not aware and therefore that is contributing to the spread of Ebola.

GUPTA: Well, if the concern is that it's mutated and changed the way that it transmits in some way, this is something that's being monitored. You're absolutely right, first of all.

It is mutating more than it has in the past because it is in more humans than it has been in the past, and that's when it mutates. But the idea that it's changed its transmission pattern as a result of that mutation, I don't think that's been proven at all. They can mutate in all sorts of different ways. It can mutate into something less lethal as well.

I do want to point out something interesting, Don. If you look at the 25 or so various pathogens that do transmit in various ways between human beings, I don't know if there's ever been a documented case where they have mutated in a way where that's changed the way they transmit, changed the mode of transmission.

It's just not a common thing. Is it theoretically possible? Yes. Has it happened yes already? I don't think so.

LEMON: Not to rush you along here, Sanjay, but I want to get your perspective on this and possibly my other guests, because NBC's Dr. Nancy Snyderman has apologized for violating a voluntary Ebola quarantine after returning to the U.S. from covering the outbreak in Liberia.

Despite a 21-day quarantine, Snyderman was seen going to a New Jersey restaurant last week. "NBC Nightly News" anchor Brian Williams read a statement from her addressing the issue on tonight's broadcast. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, ANCHOR, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": We spoke with Nancy earlier today, during which time she said -- quote -- "While under voluntary quarantine guidelines which called for our team to avoid public contact for 21 days, members of our group violated those guidelines and understand that our quarantine is now mandatory until 21 days have passed. We remain healthy, and our temperatures are normal. As a health professional, I know that we have no symptoms and pose no risk to the public, but I am deeply sorry for the concerns this episode caused.

"We are thrilled that Ashoka is getting better, and our thoughts continue to be with the thousands affected by Ebola whose stories we all went to cover."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Sanjay, I know you understand I'm up against the clock here. But I know you hate to criticize a colleague. But what do you think?

GUPTA: I spoke to Nancy earlier today. I mean, just -- I want to make one thing clear. And she apologized because she was supposed to contact the state department of health before leaving the apartment.

Is she a threat to the public health, to the public welfare around her? No. She's not sick. The people who are quarantined in Dallas were not quarantined because of the concern about the public health. They were quarantined because they were not -- they worried that they wouldn't be able to trace them, that they might leave.

That wasn't the case with Nancy.

LEMON: All right. Thank you.

What do you make of this, Doctor?

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes. I think it's really important. She's in the public eye and following protocols is the way that we will stop this transmission. I completely agree with Sanjay, and I don't think -- she does an excellent job most of the time, but I think in this case she was right to apologize.

LEMON: All right, Deborah, thank you.

I'm sorry I can't get your reaction, but I appreciate you joining us on CNN TONIGHT. Thank you, both doctors. We appreciate it.

We have got a lot more coming up here on CNN TONIGHT.

But, first, all this week, CNN's anchors are taking a very personal and emotional look at our family histories in the special. It's called "Roots: Our Journeys Home." You saw Anderson's amazing story just a little while ago before this broadcast, and you can see mine right here tomorrow night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Tomorrow night on CNN, when Don Lemon traces his roots, it's America's history too.

LEMON: I came from a group of people who were survivors.

NARRATOR: Go on his emotional journey back to another world, CNN TONIGHT, tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: ISIS appears to be advancing on two fronts. It's fighting to take control of the Syrian city of Kobani, and it now controls most of Anbar province in Iraq just west of Baghdad seizing an important military base from Iraqi forces. Militants are now only about eight miles outside of Baghdad.

Here's Army chief of staff, General Ray Odierno.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RAY ODIERNO, ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: I will say we were a bit surprised by their capability. And there's no excuse for that. I believe the capability is there to defend Baghdad. And so I think we're somewhat confident in that, but we'll have to wait to see what plays out over the coming days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is Major General James "Spider" Marks, CNN senior military analyst and a former commanding general of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center; Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and a former CIA counterterrorism official; Tom Fuentes, a CNN law enforcement analyst and a former assistant director of the FBI.

Spider Marks, to you. Surprised by ISIS capabilities? Airstrikes doing very little to stop ISIS from advancing. Jihadist fighters now just miles away from Baghdad and Iraqi forces are threatening to flee. What needs to happen?

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: Well, clearly, what we -- what we have in Baghdad right now is a heightened sense of concern. The Baghdad International Airport is on the western side of Baghdad. Anbar province is beyond that to the west. So clearly, Baghdad International is at risk.

But as General Odierno indicated, he is not -- he doesn't have kind of a raised sense of concern, because there are capabilities on the ground right now. Clearly, Apache helicopters. We do have advisers.

And also bear in mind that the Iraqi security forces that are any good at all are in and around Baghdad. So we have the very -- the very best of the ISF. And we've got the very best attack platforms that the army has to go after the fighters. But clearly, there's a concern, because Baghdad International and the rest of Baghdad is within both artillery and mortar range.

LEMON: Yes. I know how you feel about this, General. We spoke earlier today, but I want to get Tom's opinion. How bad is it if Baghdad falls? And is that even likely?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, everybody says that it's not likely. But you know, I don't know. We haven't stopped them yet. The airstrikes were supposed to stop them. They didn't. You know, everything -- we're supposed to rely on the Iraqi security forces, who have failed at every turn, and now we're saying, "Yes, but they'll surely hold Baghdad."

Well, you know, I don't know. History shows that impenetrable places were conquered in the past. Fortress Singapore in World War II. The Maginot Line in World War II. You know, and now we're relying on an army that has proven no capability recently to defend Baghdad.

LEMON: Philip, I'm going to get you in, but I want to go back to the general real quick. You don't believe it's likely. Why is that?

MARKS: There's very little incentive for ISIS to try to take Baghdad, because they would be sucked into this horrid, horrible fight of attrition. They don't have the manpower. They don't have the capabilities. This is a place that is, as Tom indicated, it's hardened, but it's hardened. And it's in depth and there's a U.S. presence in there. There's going to be some oversight and some enhanced focus if that is really the case.

So I'm not advocating one way or the other. All I'm saying -- and then there's real caution to be voiced here. But ISIS stands to gain, if they can harass Baghdad, if they can do damage on Baghdad International Airport, they don't have to go into Baghdad to achieve a great success.

LEMON: OK. Philip Mudd, I want you to take a look at this latest ISIS propaganda. It's a video called "Blood of Jihad," showing fighters in basic training. Recruits crawl through simulated barbed wire with trainers firing at the guys, lined up getting chest kicked. Take a look at this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Phil, how effective are these videos in helping strengthen and hone ISIS forces?

MUDD: I think pretty effective. We focused on what's happening in the west, what's happening in Europe, the United States. Talked about thousands of Europeans going to ISIS.

But you've got to remember, there are recruiting grounds that are even more critical: Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Morocco, Jordan, Syria. So these videos, to my mind, are directed to recruit people who might have seen beheading videos. Those are seen as fringe among extremist groups.

This is now showing a groups -- a group that's engaged in paramilitary training. I think it's very effective in going against the core recruiting areas in places like the Middle East and North Africa.

LEMON: And this -- these videos that we have been seeing from ISIS, Philip, they're so slick and edited. And that's all part of the lure.

MUDD: That's right. These are not training videos. Let's be clear. These are recruiting videos designed to draw people into the fight and to show that ISIS isn't just a group that assassinates people. It's a group that has a paramilitary capability that's threatening Baghdad. To me these are psychological videos. They're not paramilitary or military training videos.

LEMON: Philip Mudd, Tom Fuentes, and General Spider Marks. Thank you very much.

MUDD: Thank you.

LEMON: Up next an author who said on Bill Maher's HBO program that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas. Does Sam Harris still feel that way? And can comments like that trigger a backlash against American Muslims? He's here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON; The sudden rise of ISIS and its brutality in dealing with its enemies has sparked a heated debate about Islam and what it teaches. I want you to take a look at an argument that broke out on Bill Maher's HBO program between Maher, actor Ben Affleck, and author Sam Harris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM HARRIS, AUTHOR: When you want to talk about the treatment of women and homosexuals and free thinkers and public intellectuals in the Muslim world, I would argue that liberals have failed us. The crucial point of confusion is that we have been sold this meme of

Islamophobia where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people.

BILL MAHER, HOST, HBO'S "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": Right.

HARRIS: And that is -- it's intellectually ridiculous.

BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: So hold on. Are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You can interpret that? You can say, "Well, this is..."

HARRIS: I'm actually well-educated on this topic.

MAHER: Why are you so hostile about this subject?

AFFLECK: It's gross. It's racist.

MAHER: It's not. But it's so not.

AFFLECK: It's like saying, "You're a shifty Jew."

HARRIS: Absolutely not.

MAHER: You're not listening to what we are saying.

AFFLECK: You guys are saying if you want to be liberals believe in liberal principles like freedom of speech, like...

MAHER: Right. Right.

AFFLECK: ... we are endowed by our forefathers with inalienable rights, like all men are created equal.

HARRIS: Ben, we have to be able to criticize bad ideas.

AFFLECK: Of course we do. No liberal doesn't want to criticize.

HARRIS: But Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: the mother lode of bad ideas. Sam Harris is here with me tonight. He is the author of "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion."

Thank you. I'm sure you've seen that a lot. You created a firestorm there. Do you stand by your statement that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas?

HARRIS: That's the kind of thing you say when a celebrity is shouting over you and not letting you talk. So it's not -- it requires more discussion than that, and to be fair, that was a context in which it was very hard to have this discussion.

But you know, I can defend that claim. I think that -- that we have an idea here that all religions are the same, that they're all equally wise or equally empty or equally irrelevant. And this is obviously devout believers of various religions don't believe this, but -- but secular liberals tend to believe this. And it's just not true. Our religions are quite different.

And there are many cases in which, you know, Christianity is worse than Islam if you're going to talk about something like opposition to embryonic stem cell research, because Muslims believe that the soul enters the fetus at day 180 or 120, depending which on which Hadith you believe. So I would never dream of criticizing Islam on that point.

But we have to acknowledge that Islam has doctrines like jihad and martyrdom and death to apostates, which are -- which are central to the faith in the way that they aren't in other faiths. And we just have to -- we have to grapple with that. And Muslims have to grapple with that.

LEMON: And you are an atheist, and the point being for many people is that you can criticize Christianity. No one will call you anti- Christian or anti-American, but if you do the same when it comes to Islam, then you're Islamophobic.

I want to get to an article that you wrote. It's called "Sleepwalking toward Armageddon." All right. I'm going to put some of these quotes, and I want you to respond to it.

Sort of in the context of what you were talking to on Bill Maher. You said, "No doubt many enlightened concerns will come flooding into the reader's mind at this point. I would not want to create the impression that most Muslims support ISIS; nor would I want to give any shelter or inspiration to the hatred of Muslims as people. In drawing a connection between the doctrine of Islam and jihadist violence, I am talking about the ideas and their consequences, not about the 1.5 billion nominal Muslims, many of whom do not take their religion very seriously. Why don't people hear that instead of being racist or Islamophobic?

HARRIS: Yes, well, we have a kind of dogma of political correctness here which is stifling conversation. Many liberals want to grade Islam on a curve. You know, that just -- they're not expecting the same kind of civility and openness to free speech and other liberties that we hold dear, and are right to hold dear, from Muslims throughout the world.

And so when cartoonists draw the wrong cartoon, and embassies start burning, we criticize the cartoonist, and we criticize the newspapers that printed the cartoons, and we practice self-censorship. We have -- there was an academic book at Yale University Press on the cartoon controversy that wouldn't publish the cartoons. This is just madness.

And yet, it's a double standard that, if you actually want to look for racism and bigotry, this is the bigotry of low expectations. This is -- this is a kind of racism. And this point doesn't originate with me. My friend, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, has made this point many times. And so what we need is the same standard of reasonableness and tolerance applied across the board.

LEMON: OK. I want to get another couple if I can.

You said that "There is now a large industry of obfuscation designed to protect Muslims from having to grapple with these truths. Humanities and social science departments are filled with scholars and pseudo-scholars deemed to be experts in terrorism, religion, Islamic jurisprudence, anthropology, political science and other diverse fields, who claim that where Muslim intolerance and violence are concerned, nothing is ever what it seems."

And I think you believe that not admitting that there is a problem does more harm than good. Not only -- mostly to Muslims.

HARRIS: Yes. So what the president wants to say is that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. And I understand why he has to say that, because it would be too inflammatory, given the concern that we are clashing with the Muslim world, to speak honestly about this.

But clearly, ISIS has a lot to do with specific doctrines that are really Muslim doctrines. You know, Islamic doctrines. And it's not just the kind of Islam you get at a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan. It's the kind of Islam you get if you simply read the Koran and Hadith.

And so, if you're waging jihad against the infidel and killing apostates and taking sex slaves, even, this is in the teachings. And it's not peripheral. It's not -- it is central. And reformist Muslims need to speak honestly about this. And many of them do. People like Majid Nawaz and Irshad Manji. These are people who will not play hide the ball with the articles of faith. They will honestly talk about these problematic doctrines and honestly call other Muslims to figure out a way to contextualize them and put them on the shelf and retire them, frankly.

This is quite a challenge, because we have this idea of revelation, that these books were dictated by the creator of the universe. In the case of Islam it's the Koran. In the case of Christianity it's the Bible. And then you are now hostage to the contents of these books, which can't be edited.

But happily, the Bible is much easier to cherry-pick. And this explains why we can forget about Leviticus and Deuteronomy and so many of the vile passages in there and why Christians never -- you don't hear any talk among Christians about stoning people for working on the Sabbath. It's easier to do that, and -- but we have to encourage the same kind of reformation in the Muslim world.

LEMON: And we have to go. And my colleague, Fareed Zakaria, wrote a very pointed article, and he talked about some of the same things that you're talking about. Thank you very much, Sam Harris. The book is "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion." We appreciate you joining us here on CNN.

Just ahead, a young woman with terminal cancer says she intends to end her life when the time is right. Should Americans have the right to die with dignity? It's already legal in five states. But is there potential for abuse? We'll debate next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A 29-year-old woman named Brittany Maynard has sparked a national debate about the right to die with dignity. Maynard revealed that she is suffering from terminal brain cancer, and when her condition becomes unbearable she plans to take medication to end her life.

Joining me now is Mickey MacIntyre, the chief program officer at Compassion and Choices, an end-of-life choice organization. And Marilyn Golden, senior policy analyst at the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund. I appreciate both of you joining me tonight.

You know, the story of 29-year-old Brittany Maynard has really grabbed America's attention. She has terminal brain cancer. And here's how she wants to end her life. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRITTANY MAYNARD, CANCER PATIENT: I will die upstairs in my bedroom that I share with my husband. With my mother and my husband by my side.

I can't even tell you the amount of relief that it provides me to know that I don't have to die the way that it's been described to me that my brain tumor would take me on its own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Mickey, why should Brittany have the right to determine her own end of life choice?

MICKEY MACINTYRE, COMPASSION AND CHOICES: Well, I think, Don, first off, thanks for having us. And I believe that Brittany is expressing the opinion of a vast majority of people in the United States. Nearly 60 to 70 percent of the population believes that terminally ill, mentally competent adults should have the ability to access medication to be able to control how they die.

They are already dying of the disease or illness that is taking their life. But they want the opportunity and the choice to be a deliberate one in terms of how they die. They want to be able to die at home. They want to be able to die in the arms of their loved ones. And they want to be able to die with peace and autonomy.

LEMON: Marilyn, you don't agree with that, do you?

MARILYN GOLDEN, DISABILITY RIGHTS EDUCATION AND DEFENSE FUND: We don't agree that doctors should have the right to prescribe lethal drugs. Because if you consider only an individual, assisted suicide laws always look fine. But we must stand back and look broadly across society at the many people who stand to be harmed.

There is a deadly mix between our profit-driven healthcare system, our broken system, and legalizing assisted suicide, which would become the cheapest treatment, so-called treatment available. Do we really think insurers will do the right thing or the cheap thing?

LEMON: But Marilyn, what about on a human level, though, for people who are in prolonged amounts of pain, and they just don't want to be in pain any longer?

GOLDEN: I'm glad you asked that, because palliative sedation, which can provide relief of pain for people who are dying in discomfort or pain, is available and legal in all 50 states, and it doesn't pose the immense dangers of legalizing assisted suicide, which includes, with the healthcare system pressures to deny treatment, which includes elder abuse. Elder abuse is rising in this country.

And where assisted suicide is legal, we have to remember that not all families are happy. There's many families who are not supportive. And somebody who stands to inherit from an ill individual or an abusive care giver is allowed to help somebody sign up for the lethal dose, can go...

LEMON: But in some of those cases, though, that would happen even if someone did not...

GOLDEN: And can even administer it, because there's no witness required when the lethal drugs are taken.

LEMON: OK. But Marilyn, I have to say, in some of those cases even if a loved one died anyways, there would be people who are trying to take advantage of a loved one, regardless if they want to end, you know, their own life with dignity, as they say.

Mickey, how can you be certain, though, that someone who -- who is in this particular situation, or maybe in a particular situation has the mental capacity or capability of making that choice for themselves?

MACINTYRE: Well, first off, I mean, I think the record is pretty clear. In Oregon we've had 18 years of experience with the implementation of this law, and never has anyone been proven to be coerced into this. In fact, the number of people who actually take the medication is pretty low. It's just over 700 people who have taken the medication. And about a third of the folks who have the medication don't go on to take it.

LEMON: Right.

MACINTYRE: So you know, it's pretty clear through that track record, as well as the record in Washington state and in Montana, where there's over five years of experience...

LEMON: That's going to have to be the last word. Thank you, Mickey MacIntyre and Marilyn Golden. We appreciate it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)