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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Ebola Precautions; Nurse's Neighbors Alarmed; Ebola Protection; Rethinking Ebola Protocol

Aired October 14, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin this hour with a staggering Ebola forecast from the World Health Organization. Brace yourself because officials there are saying that by the end of just this year, the hardest-hit countries of Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia could see as many new Ebola cases per week as we have seen overall in the current outbreak to date. We're talking up to 10,000 cases every week.

And we have some new current numbers to tell you about as well. Right now the W.H.O. has counted just under 9,000 confirmed infections and more than 4,400 deaths. In America, the focus turns to a 26-year-old nurse who helped to treat the Liberian Ebola patient who passed away in Dallas last week. Nina Pham is the first person to contract Ebola inside the United States and she's already been getting help from an American who caught Ebola in Africa and lived. We've got more on that from CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Doctors in Dallas anxious to see if a blood transfusion may save the life of a critical care nurse, Nina Pham, the first person to contract Ebola within the U.S. She cared for the now deceased Liberian Thomas Duncan. Pham received the donation from Ebola survivor Dr. Kent Brantly on Monday. The hope? That his blood may provide key antibodies to fight the disease.

PHONG TRAN (ph), FAMILY FRIEND: Everybody should ask God to help her to get over this. And I know in the long run she will help a lot of people.

COHEN: The 26-year-old is one of around 70 hospital staffers who cared for Duncan, according to the Associated Press. The A.P. reports they reached that number after being given Duncan's medical records by his family. The CDC says they're still working to compile a list of health care workers who came into contact with Duncan.

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR, CDC: If this one individual was infected and we don't know how within the isolation unit, then it is possible that other individuals could have been infected as well.

COHEN: An official with direct knowledge of the investigation tells CNN that CDC detectives who interviewed the nurse several times believe there are, quote, "inconsistencies" in the type of gear the nurse used and how she put it on and took it off. But fellow nurses say Pham was always careful.

JENNIFER JOSEPH, NURSE: Knowing Nina, she's one of the most meticulous, thorough, effective nurses. Like she taught me infection control and hand hygiene and protocol. Like I learned so much of that from her.

COHEN: State and federal health officials are still unsure how Pham was infected, but they say it may be time to re-examine Ebola safety protocols.

FRIEDEN: We have to rethink the way we address Ebola infection control.

COHEN: Officials even considering moving patients to special containment hospitals. This as Ebola fear escalates amid international flights into the U.S. Shortly after landing in Boston Monday, a hazmat team boarded an Emirates Airline flight from Dubai and removed five passengers presenting flu-like symptoms. After examination, officials determined none of the five met the criteria for Ebola and none of them came from West Africa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: And Elizabeth Cohen joins me live now from Dallas.

So, Elizabeth, if you could update us as to Nina's condition today, how's she doing?

COHEN: You know, the hospital hasn't updated her condition today. But yesterday they said that she was stable and we know that she received a blood transfusion, as we mentioned, from Dr. Kent Brantly. She received it early on. Unlike Duncan, she got an experimental treatment early on. So we are - you know, of course everybody is hoping that that works and that she does well.

BANFIELD: Then there's also that picture we're seeing beside you on the screen, it's Nina Pham, but then there's this picture of her with her dog Bentley (ph). And now there's a lot of talk that Bentley's in quarantine. This made a big story over in Spain when they had to euthanize the nurse's dog in Spain. Do you know what the story is with Bentley?

COHEN: Yes, and many people said in Spain, why don't they just quarantine the dog? So that's what's being done here.

You know, we don't know. We've been told that the dog is feeling fine. That he's a little bit confused, which I guess would make sense, but that he's feeling fine. He's being watched to see if he becomes ill. And I want to say, Ashleigh, we -- there's a lot we don't know about dogs and Ebola and one of the things is, if the dog does get infected, would the dog transmit it to people? We just don't know the answer to that for sure.

BANFIELD: And I think that was the concern in Spain, why the officials there took the drastic action that they did. I hope that doesn't happen - you know, that's insult to injury for this poor nurse.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for that.

So if this highly trained extra careful nurse could still catch Ebola from a patient despite all the protective gear, all the protocols that were in place, how about those people who live and work in Nina Pham's neighborhood? They might be excused, right, for being concerned about themselves and being concerned about the woman they say always has a smile. CNN's Gary Tuchman met some of them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first person we know to have contracted Ebola in the United States lives in this apartment building in this middle class neighborhood north of downtown Dallas. People who live on this street are saddened and shocked by what has happened to 26-year-old Nina Pham. Betsy Bolger lives across the street from her.

BETSY BOLGER, NEIGHBOR OF NURSE INFECTED WITH EBOLA: We usually see her once a day or so. We haven't seen her since maybe Thursday or Wednesday.

TUCHMAN: Betsy usually sees Nina when they are walking their dogs.

BOLGER: I would just say she's neighborly, she's friendly, she's positive, always has a smile. Not everyone smiles and walks -- when they're walking their dogs and not everyone says hello, especially if they're engaged and not picking up after them. But she always picks up after her dog, which is good, and she's just always - I would tell my husband, she's, you know, she seems like somebody that's comfortable in her skin and respectable and belongs in the neighborhood. She mentioned once that she was a nurse and, you know, we said, oh, that's interesting and, you know, applauded her for doing that because health care workers have a really rough job. They're on the front lines.

TUCHMAN (on camera): The prevailing feeling among residents on this block we've talked to is concern about their neighbor, but there is also substantial unease about not knowing details of how she came down with Ebola.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): City and county officials have gone door to door in the neighborhood to answer questions about how Ebola spreads, but it is nevertheless disconcerting to many neighbors.

JAMES GUAJARDO, NEIGHBOR: Pretty - pretty alarming, you know, concerned now. So, I mean, hopefully, you know, this will stay contained.

TUCHMAN: On the corner of the block is the Dallas Beast Fitness Gym. Even though Nina Pham doesn't work out here, the owner says some of his clients are on edge.

LAVELL ROBERSON, GYM OWNER: Well, we just sterilize every day now, every hour on the hour. We have wet naps (ph) that, you know, disinfectant rags that we wipe off the equipment with. So we just make sure we keep everything a little more clean.

TUCHMAN: Jacob DeLuna is an electrical contractor doing work next door to the victim's apartment. He's worried.

JACOB DELUNA, ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR: I'm nervous about it. I don't want -- in fact this morning I told my wife I didn't want to - I really didn't want to come over here. But I asked her to pray for me and she did. So I'm believing that the Lord will protect.

TUCHMAN: This maintenance supervisor is carrying a mask just in case he feels the need to use it.

CLINT RABE, MAINTENANCE SUPERVISOR: The nurse contracted the virus, then, I mean, they usually take big precautions, especially with this Ebola virus, you know, and, yes, it's scary. It seems like it might be more contagious than the doctors are saying.

TUCHMAN: Some neighbors tell us other residents have temporarily left their homes while work is taking place at the victim's apartment. But not Betsy Bolger and her husband, who hope to welcome their dog- walking friend home soon.

BOLGER: Anybody that is willing to go out on the front lines of medicine like she's doing and take care of an Ebola patient, you know, with direct contact, that's brave and that's courageous and that's a healing angel to me.

TUCHMAN: Gary Tuchman, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: So when you've seen some of those health care workers complete suited up, oftentimes they get through their work safe. They're protected. But it's when they try to get that gear off it becomes a really big problem and they are in danger. Dr. Sanjay Gupta did the whole process from start to finish. Suited up and then tried to suit down without getting the infection. And the display that you're going to see is nothing short of remarkable. That's coming next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Health care workers who are treating Ebola have two very difficult tasks. Number one, trying to save their patients' lives, right? And then also trying to save themselves as they treat that deadly patient. Well, the Dallas nurse who contracted Ebola from an infected patient said that she was wearing protective gear and that she followed all the protocol. CNN's chief medical correspondent, however, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, says, well, that can be just as difficult, the protocol itself. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So I want to give you an idea of what the CDC is recommending in terms of how to protect yourself with this personal protective gear. I'm also going to show you how to take it off, which some say is the most dangerous part. I will point out as we start to do this, I work in an operating room every week. This is different than what most doctors, I think, are used to, at least in the operating room.

Now, I do want to point out, this is a little different than how I suited up when I was in Guinea, but we're following CDC protocol. Now I want to show you how I'm going to take this protective equipment off and I'm also going to put a little chocolate sauce in my hand which could represent a possible Ebola contamination. Take a look.

This is the mask back on. So here would be the most likely contaminated area would be my gloves, maybe the front of my gown a bit like this. OK. Now I've got to - I've got to treat this as if I'm potentially contaminated. I come out. What I'll going to do with this particular gown, I'm going to rip it all off together and everything's going to come off simultaneously. But a part of the glove sort of brushed against my hand, my arm there, that could potentially be an exposure.

If the glove didn't come off properly, I would reach underneath here as best I could and get underneath there, but perhaps, if I didn't do it exactly right, there could be another potential exposure there. I'm reaching behind now, as well as I can, but let's say the side of my face shield was contaminated and I touched here, that could potentially be an exposure. Same thing here now with the face mask.

So now take a look. Right there, see a little bit of chocolate sauce, one possible exposure and over here on my neck, one possible exposure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, an excellent demonstration for us.

It's important to remember, even with what you just saw, that only one person so far has caught Ebola from that first patient who was diagnosed in the United States.

The Associated Press has reported that Thomas Eric Duncan possibly exposed more than 70 health care workers. At least 70 we health care workers were working on him. But there might have been 50 other people who were exposed to him. And it's also important to note, nobody else has caught this disease. So 120 people, if the numbers are correct, and we're not talking about that many people who have actually been infected. But in light of only one case of transmission, the CDC chief, Thomas Frieden, has announced that the CDC will review its Ebola control protocols.

And joining me to talk about the best way to contain this lethal virus is CNN medical analyst Dr. Alexander van Tulleken.

You can't stress enough how there are so many people who came ultimately in contact with Thomas Eric Duncan. I can't understand how a nurse like Ms. Pham could be infected with all of that gear and yet the family that was in the apartment with him while he was retching and ill and sweating and sick and sharing that small space with them for four-plus days, nobody has tested positive. How does this equate? DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: So the virus isn't

very contagious in that it's quite hard to catch. And you see that from the number of people that are exposed to him but haven't caught it. But it is very infectious. So if you are the unlucky person who gets that droplet of blood or other bodily fluid into your eye, into your mouth, onto a bit of broken skin, then you're very likely to catch it.

BANFIELD: But that's where I'm confused.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Because Ms. Pham was suited up and that family member -- those family members had no clue that he didn't just have the flu.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: So, understandably, over the course of several days in a small apartment, they would have had to have come in contact with a towel -

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: A utensil, a glass, a sheet. He was sharing the same bed with his partner.

VAN TULLEKEN: So the levels of virus that he was shedding in the hospital would have been much higher. And necessarily in the hospital, you're dealing with body fluids, needles, blood, things like that which you might be less exposed to at home. It's still surprising. They still would have been exposed, and it's still surprising that they haven't been --

BANFIELD: That they're not sick.

VAN TULLEKEN: But -- I mean, this is what we've seen in Ebola epidemics is most people don't catch Ebola when they're exposed to people. But if you are that unlucky person what we realized from her is the protocol is difficult to follow. When the protocol goes wrong, we don't have clear guidelines.

BANFIELD: Well, it's hard to follow to perfection.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes. It's -- no protocol is about perfection. The protocol is about reducing risk. And the protocol has to take into account that things can go wrong.

BANFIELD: Let me just ask you something. The CDC is sort of taking it on the chin for five particular things that, you know, the accusation is they just got this wrong. Number one, telling Ebola patients to, quote, "call a doctor."

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Well, that might be the best thing. You might want to call 911. Number two, the director said that any hospital can care for Ebola patients, maybe, maybe not. Also not encouraging something called the buddy system for doctors and nurses to protect each other. That they didn't encourage doctors to develop Ebola treatment guidelines and that they put too much trust in protective gear.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Are those criticisms all fair?

VAN TULLEKEN: I think -- I mean, I think Elizabeth Cohen has done a really nice job of reporting on this. And I think they are all fair. But if you start with the first ones, it's not just that you might want to call 911. It's that actually you might want a totally different system. You might want an Ebola line where you can call up, it's not hard to establish a phone center with basic triage information to say, who have you been in contact with, have you been to West Africa?

Those kind of questions which will quickly allay fears. Instead you've got people burdening health systems and potentially transmitting the disease as well.

BANFIELD: And paramedics showing up without --

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Without knowing anything.

VAN TULLEKEN: And we see that -- exactly. We see that all the way through.

BANFIELD: I have to let you go but not before something very distressing. That fever is not always an indicator that you have an Ebola? That seems to be the panacea for all the airports and yet you can still have it and not show a fever?

VAN TULLEKEN: This is a really difficult virus to study. Almost all the cases in the world that have ever occurred in human Ebola have been in Africa. So we don't have that much information. So there's no hard and fast rules. Most cases seem to start with fever. And this is the only sensible way of screening. But keeping nurses safe is much more important than airport screening.

BANFIELD: Than airport screening.

Doctor Van Tulleken, good to have you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it as always.

And we've just learned, by the way, that the CDC is expected to give an update on Ebola this afternoon. That's coming at 3:00 Eastern Time. Of course CNN will cover that, bring you everything live as we get it as well.

Some people are characterizing it is a seismic shift from the Vatican when it comes to gay people. A new document released by Catholic bishops talked about the gifts that gay people can bring to the Christian community and even has positive words about gay couples. So do these words mean anything significant officially? We're going

to dig into that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It's preliminary, unofficial and changes absolutely nothing, and yet a report issued by the gathering of Roman Catholic bishops on the problems facing 21st century families is being called, quote, "revolutionary, stunning, a pastoral earthquake."

You can judge for yourself. The bishops wrote that gay people, quote, "have gifts and qualities to offer the Christian community." And good gay relationship -- yes, the bishops imply there are good gay relationships, quote, "provide mutual aid to the point of sacrifice," end quote. And, quote, "precious support in the life of the partners."

I'm going to stop and bring in an expert on this.

Father Edward Beck is a CNN religion commentator. He's an author and host of "The Sunday Mass."

So seismic and extraordinary and all of these celebrations going on about some movement in the Catholic Church when it comes to gay people and quality within the church or recognition within the church, but I think a lot of people see this as, this is just pandering to suggest I have a quality, I have some kind of quality to offer to the community?

I mean, these are people. Shouldn't they just be people?

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: Sure. And I think if you see where the church has come from, to use language like, disordered, you know.

BANFIELD: Yes. That's not changing, though, Fr. Beck.

BECK: All that -- yes, that language is nowhere in here. Nothing about sin was in any of this. It was total embrace of giftedness, inclusion, how can we learn from each other. It's a radical shift.

Now you made -- let's say it's not everything. They're not saying -- the church isn't saying, let's marry gay people. But it is saying the respect and dignity that every person is accorded is due them. And that's different from what the church has said before.

BANFIELD: So how is -- how does this not feel patronizing, though, to someone who is a good Catholic in every way and just happens to love someone of the same same-sex but they're great practicing Catholics, much better than some of the priests who have administered the faith. And they're supposed to be OK with this?

BECK: Well, I think to hear that your relationship can be loving and supportive when you hear your church saying that, when for so long your church has said sinful --

BANFIELD: You don't exist. BECK: Be excluded, that's a radical shift.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: So --

BECK: So it is revolutionary.

BANFIELD: Baby steps -- I mean, for those who --

BECK: It's bigger than a baby step. I think it's a pretty major step in tone, in perspective --

BANFIELD: Feels like baby steps in humanity, though. That's what it feels like. It feels like baby steps when it comes to just the humanity of recognizing in the "what would Jesus do" factor.

BECK: What would Jesus do? What did he do? He embraced people who were on the fringe. Now he didn't say, because you're on the fringe, that you're totally OK, come with us. It was the process of conversion. It doesn't happen all at once. Everybody's a sinner, right? Depends on the sin. None of us are deserving. So the point is, how can you get everybody in the same tent and say that the message really is for all people?

BANFIELD: It's hard to be tough on a priest. It's really hard to interview and be tough on you. You're such a nice guy.

(LAUGHTER)

Thanks, Fr. Beck. Good to see you as always.

BECK: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Thanks for coming in.

In other news, we got this story that came across our radar. A high school hazing scandal prompting a school district to cancel the season for its championship football team. Police arrest seven of the players involved. And the charges are sexual assault, aggravated, in fact. This decision came quickly after alleged victims came forward. But my next guests say this is not even close to being enough.

Ahead, CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins on what else they need to do. That's next.

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