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At This Hour

2nd Nurse at Dallas Hospital Gets Ebola; Infected Nurse Flew on Frontier Airlines; Nurses Furious at Texas Hospital, CDC; Ebola Handling System, Training Questioned; Obama's Ebola Problem Hitting Midterm Elections

Aired October 15, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: The second health care worker in Dallas that has been stricken with Ebola, we learned she flew on Frontier Airlines, flight 1143 from Cleveland to Dallas on Monday, the day before she reported having symptoms.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The day before she had symptoms.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: The CDC is working to contact all 132 passengers on board that flight.

Back with us to talk about this new development to the already breaking news we have this morning, our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta; and senior medical correspondent, Dr. Elizabeth Cohen.

Elizabeth, again, we were told once that passenger was on the flight she was not exhibiting symptoms. Nevertheless, how worrisome is this development?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: If you're not exhibiting sum toms of Ebola you cannot transmit the disease. So I think CDC would probably put this in the abundance of caution category. Because it was so close, because she was sick the next morning, they want to follow up with these passengers. They'll reach out to them and these passengers have been invited to call a toll-free number into the CDC.

I think the biggest concern would be if she were sitting next to someone and her sweat got on their skin. The risk is very, very low but I think no one wants to say there's zero risk.

PEREIRA: Obviously, a concern. They want to do their due diligence there.

Sanjay, we saw a press conference earlier this morning, Texas Health officials addressing the public and the press about the ongoing situation there in Dallas. Absent from the meeting was the CDC, leaving the question to many of us, what is the CDC doing to prevent further Ebola cases, specifically among health care workers. We understand they're on the front lines, they're putting themselves at risk, and so far we have two that are sick.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, some people think that the CDC comes in and sort of swoops in, in situations like this, and takes over. You'd be surprised to learn they have very little authority over local health departments. They have very little mandate power. They mostly offer guidance and recommendations, so ultimately it's the local health department that takes these situations on.

One could make the argument this is an unusual situation because of the nature of it. It's the first time this has happened in the United States. Also, this idea that is this more of a national issue, could people around the country be more at risk? Should a federal authority be in charge? I think some discussions are under way. They outline what their next steps will be. Send a team in, including people who have worked with Doctors Without Borders.

I find that very interesting. Doctors Without Borders has a good track record in central and West Africa of preventing secondary infections. Maybe they can offer help here, improving processes and procedures, putting a sight manager in place. You wonder why those are next steps and they weren't first steps. Given the fact that this had been anticipated for a long time, why wasn't this already done? Part of it could be there was a sense of confidence, we've got this, we'll be able to control this. Now they're finding out that this is not a forgiving virus and they have to put more plans on the ground.

BERMAN: Elizabeth, we want to get in a viewer question right now. People on Twitter have been writing a lot of things and one of the common questions is like this right here: "How is it that as of now that none of Thomas Eric Duncan's family members, the people in that apartment he's been staying, why is it they have not tested positive while we have two nurses who cared for him in the hospital, and theoretically trained in how to deal with this, why are they sick?"

COHEN: It all has to do with how much contact each of these people had with Mr. Duncan's bodily fluids. His girlfriend, Louise, said, at one point, he took care of himself. She said to the effect that she wasn't cleaning up his bodily fluids, that he was taking care of himself. That ended up being a smart move. Nurses don't have that luxury. Nurses are so on the front lines here. They spent the most time with the patient and they are the once cleaning up the bodily fluids. And I don't mean to be too graphic but we're talking copious amounts of vomiting and diarrhea, liters and liters of it. It hits the nurses, literally.

PEREIRA: They are right there on the front lines.

BERMAN: Sanjay, do you think they need to review the policies in place for health care workers now that we know this medical worker that was just diagnosed with Ebola traveled within days after treating Thomas Eric Duncan. Do you think they need to reconsider whether they allow that? GUPTA: That's a great question. I was thinking the same thing. Now

you're in a situation where you cared for someone with Ebola, you're not out of this incubation period, this 21-day period that everyone's heard about by now. What should your limitations be, if any? Again, you're not going to transmit the virus unless you're sick, we know that, but you travel somewhere and you're coming back, you're starting to feel sick, could that be a concerned? I don't know. This is one of the things that wasn't on the list of things they need to think about with regard to Ebola in the United States. But it's a worthy point. If you are in the incubation period, you don't necessarily need to be under lockdown, but what should you be allowed to do?

PEREIRA: Essentially, some people are saying we're playing catch up, that we're behind the curve here, having to learn as we go.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much for joining us.

And to those of you at home, thanks for participating and sending in your questions.

Also, if you're looking to help those that have been affected, visit our website CNN.com/impact.

BERMAN: Other issues we're dealing with, exposure. That's what nurses say was the big mistake made in treating the first Ebola patient. We'll talk about the allegations these nurses are making against the hospital and the CDC in detail ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSEANN DEMORO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL NURSES UNITED (voice- over): Our nurses are not protected. They're not prepared to handle Ebola.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Some information for you coming into the CNN NEWSROOM right now. The ongoing operation, the coalition forces working to battle ISIS in Syria and Iraq, well, that operation has been named. The operation has been given the name "Inherent Resolve." General Martin Dempsey is going to sit down with our Kyra Phillips. They've had a discussion. We'll bring that to you at 1:00 p.m. in our 1:00 p.m. news hour.

BERMAN: Back to our breaking news on the Ebola front. Nurses at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital are furious this morning. They say they did not have guidelines, they did not have proper protective gear when treating Ebola patient, Thomas Eric Duncan.

PEREIRA: Here's a look at what they are saying: Duncan wasn't immediately isolated. The nurses' protective gear left their necks exposed and vulnerable. At one point, hazardous waste piled up. Nurses received no hands-on training. And they felt unsupported.

Take a listen to more of what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEMORO (voice-over): The gowns they were given still exposed their necks, the parts closest to their face and mouth. They also left exposed a majority of their heads and their scrubs from the knees down. Initially, they were not even given surgical booties, nor were they advised the number of pairs of gloves to wear. After they recommended that the nurses wear isolation suits, the nurses raised questions and concerns about the fact that the skin on their neck was exposed. They were told to use medical tape and had to use four to five pieces of medical tape wound around their neck that is not impermeable and has permeable seams.

The nurses have expressed a lot of concern about how difficult it is to remove the tape from their necks and are uncertain whether it is being done safely. Hospital managers have assured nurses that proper equipment has been ordered. But it has not arrived yet. Nurses had to interact with Mr. Duncan with whatever protective equipment was available at the time when he had copious amounts of diarrhea and vomiting, which produces a lot of contagious fluids. Hospital officials allowed nurses who interacted with Mr. Duncan to then continue normal patient care duties, taking care of other patients, even though they had not had the proper personal protective equipment while providing care for Mr. Duncan. That was later recommended by the CDC.

Guidelines have now been changed several times, but it is not clear what version Nina Pham had available. The hospital later said that their guidelines had changed and that the nurses needed to adhere to them. What has caused confusion is that the guidelines were constantly changing. It is later asked which guidelines should be followed. The message to the nurses was, "It's up to you." It is not up to the nurses to be setting the policy, the nurses say, in face of a virulent disease. They needed to be trained optimally and correctly in how to deal with Ebola and the proper PPE doffing as well as how to dispose of the waste.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: A whole lot of allegations right there.

I should say the hospital has responded now. This is their statement. It says, "We take compliance very seriously. We have numerous measures in place to provide a safe working environment, including mandatory annual training and a 24/7 hotline and other mechanisms that allow for anonymous reporting."

PEREIRA: We just heard the concerns from the nurses. They are on the front lines. Do they have the proper personal protective equipment? Ahead @THISHOUR, our Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to show us just how difficult it is to remove that protective clothing and the vulnerabilities health care workers face.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: There are serious question this morning about the systems in place and the training that has been given at Texas Health Presbyterian, the hospital in Dallas where now a second medical worker has been diagnosed with Ebola.

PEREIRA: Seems like an appropriate time to bring back our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, I know, as a surgeon, you go into the O.R. all the time, you have to don your scrubs and get ready for the O.R. But you have the opportunity to show us what it's like to put on this specific protective gear, specific for Ebola.

GUPTA: That's right. And I wanted to follow what the CDC guidelines were exactly. What they're putting out for health care workers. What is it? How well did it work? We put it to the test.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: I want to give you an idea of what the CDC is recommending in terms of how to protect yourself with this personal protective gear. I'm going show you how to take it off, which some say is the most dangerous part. I will point out, as we start to do this, I work in an operating room every week. This is different than what most doctors I think are used to, at least in the operating room.

And I do want to point out this is a little different than how I suited up when I was in Guinea. But we're following CDC protocol.

I'm going to show you how I'm going to take this protective equipment off. I'm also going to put a little chocolate sauce in my hand which could represent a possible Ebola contamination. Take a look.

So here's the most likely contaminated area, my gloves and the front of my gown. I'm going to treat this as if I'm potentially contaminated. I come out. What I'm going to do is rip this gown all off together. And everything's going to come off simultaneously. But if part of the glove brushed against my arm there, that could potentially be an exposure. The glove didn't come off properly. I would reach underneath here as best I could and get underneath there. But perhaps if I didn't do it exactly right, there could be another potential exposure there. I'm reaching behind now as well as I can. But say the side of my face shield is contaminated and I touch here, that could potentially been an exposure. Same thing here now with the facemask. Take a look. Right there, a little bit of chocolate sauce. One possible exposure. And over here on my neck, one possible exposure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: One of the things I really learned from that was, first of all, not all your skin is covered under the CDC protocol the way that it stands now. A potential concern, as you saw there. There's no particular buddy system in place. We talked about that it would be nice to have someone observe you putting on your garb and taking it off. And also putting your hands in bleach before you take it off. I did that in Guinea but it's not done here.

PEREIRA: Seems strange that they're doing it in West Africa and not here.

BERMAN: Sanjay, I should tell you, we have some news.

We have a name now of this Ebola patient, the second medical worker diagnosed with Ebola. Her name is Amber Vinson, a nurse at Texas Health Presbyterian. That's confirmed to Reuters by one of her relatives.

PEREIRA: We're so sad to learn that she is the second nurse to be sick. We'll keep an eye on the situation for you.

Another part of the conversation obviously is the federal response and the international response. President Obama, for his part, demanding that world leaders confront Ebola as his own public health system struggles to contain the virus. The crisis is now splitting into critical midterm campaigns. Up next, the president's Ebola problem.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PEREIRA: New details in to CNN. We have just learned, according to Reuters, the second nurse sickened in Dallas has been named now. She's been identified as Amber Vinson. The second nurse that was part of the team that cared for Thomas Duncan, the man who died of Ebola at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas.

Meanwhile, @THISHOUR, President Obama chastising world leaders for not doing their part to fight Ebola. The president meets via videoconference with leaders from Great Britain, France, Germany and Italy to discuss the international Ebola response.

BERMAN: But is the president himself doing enough? The president's tough talk comes as a new poll finds just 41 percent of respondents in the United States approve of the way he's handling the federal response to Ebola.

Joining are Lisa Boothe, a Republican strategist and senior director of Black Rock Group; and Democratic strategist, Robert Zimmerman.

Robert, I have been -- maybe I haven't been shocked. But it is notable this is coming up in every race.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Everyone's talking about this all over the country, but particularly in campaigns. Every debate, we're seeing it in ads now. Ebola in a way has become a bit of an October surprise.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, this topic is so much more significant than reducing it to politics. But if you look at this issue, obviously you don't vote for a CDC director, you don't vote for the National Institutes of Health director. You vote for president. Presidents are held accountable at times like this. But I think it's a mistake -- it may motivate the Republican base that wants to believe the government is at fault for almost anything. But the reality is it's a real mistake to take a national health crisis and play partisan politics with it. It never works.

PEREIRA: It's been interesting that we've been hearing from Senator John McCain and others in the political realm. But also interestingly from medical professionals that we've even had on our air, for the appointing of some sort of Ebola czar. Now, normally one would say this would fall under the job of the surgeon general. Right now, there is not one. And the nomination the president has sort of stalled. An Ebola czar, good idea?

LISA BOOTHE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & SENIOR DIRECTOR, BLACK ROCK GROUP: Robert mentioned playing politics in Senate races right now. But Pryor is the one who went out with an ad and attacked Tom Cotton and couldn't respond to how he thought President Obama was handling the situation.

But in regards to a czar, absolutely not. There's been concerns with a communication problem between the federal government, state and local officials. And I think adding another layer of bureaucracy to that doesn't help. Further, we created the Health and Human Services Department 10 years ago for instances like this. We also have a CDC head right now. What we need is leadership. And that starts at the top with President Obama.

BERMAN: You could say it starts in Texas also with Governor Rick Perry. There's a lot happening there as well. But I will say that an environment of fear, you say it never plays to make a crisis --

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

PEREIRA: However, people are worried. People are nervous about this. Some fears are legitimate, some not. That cannot play well for the party in power.

ZIMMERMAN: Let's be realistic about it, of course. This kind of fear does motivate the Republican base. But the reality here is we're not talking about a public outbreak. We're talking about two people who have been tragically exposed for their heroic work in terms of trying to care for Ebola patients. And it's very important, I think, for all of us, just for the sake of our country, to put a realistic perspective about what's happening here. And I think that's really the distinction.

PEREIRA: You get a 15-second response.

BOOTHE: I would say that realistic viewpoint is not coming from this administration. This is a president who said a few weeks ago that it was unlikely Ebola would come to the United States. Now we have three different cases. The CDC said we have it under control. Clearly, we do not. There's cause for concerns here.

BERMAN: Let's hope people do get better soon.

PEREIRA: We do.

Robert Zimmerman and Lisa Boothe, thanks so much for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: That's it for us @THISHOUR. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: And Ashleigh Banfield takes it over now with "LEGAL VIEW."