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Dr. Drew

Interview with People Who Were Subjected to Rough Traffic Stop; Ten- Year Old Murderer Will Be Sentenced as Adult; Companies Ready to Help Women Delay Childbirth; Government`s Failure To Protect Us from Ebola

Aired October 15, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANDREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, new developments in the traffic stop gone viral.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah!

PINSKY: What really happened in that car? The man at the center of the video is here.

Plus, $20,000 to freeze your eggs and continue working. Tech companies say they`re helping women, but some on social media do not agree. Let`s get

started.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Good evening. Everyone. My co-host is Sam Schacher. And tonight, a routine traffic stop turns terrifying for a family of four when police

smash in the passenger side window, then they tasered a man sitting in the passenger`s seat. That man and the driver of the car are here with us

today to share their side of the story. Have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ah!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ah!

(SCREAMS)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the back seat of the car, Lisa Mahone`s 14-year- old son videotaped a routine traffic stop that escalated very quickly.

LISA MAHONE, DRIVER: No, I`m not making it worse now. I`m scared for my life. Because he just pulled a gun on us. We don`t have a gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On her way to the hospital to visit her dying mother, Mahone was behind the wheel when she was pulled over by Hammond police for

failing to wear a seatbelt.

LISA MAHONE: If you`re going to give me a ticket for no seat belt, then just give me a ticket so I can go to the hospital, because the doctor

called me to tell me to come here because my mom is about to pass away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mahone`s friend, Jamal Jones, was in the passenger`s seat. The officer asked him for identification. Jones didn`t have his

driver`s license, because he had been ticketed for not paying insurance.

JAMAL JONES, PASSENGER: I was feeling maybe they don`t shoot us. I felt to protect my family, I should have stayed in that vehicle and not move.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to open the door?

MAHON: How can you say nobody is going to hurt you? People are getting shot by the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Damn!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Joining us, Mark, Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com, Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com, Evy Poumpouras, law enforcement analyst, former

Secret Service agent, special agent.

Sam, there`s tons of controversy about this story, lots of questions for the family. What do you got?

SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yeah, lots of questions, Dr. Drew, because if you remember last time we talked, we reported some breaking news that the

police officer, the one who smashed that window, he had been accused three different times in the past of excessive force, and also the passenger had

- and still has this outstanding warrant, it`s seven years old, for dealing marijuana.

PINSKY: All right, so, there`s issues on both sides. And Mark, I`ve got to tell you, not following a police officer`s instructions is something I

don`t understand. Unless he tells you to do something egregious, just get out of the car, you get out of the car. But he, this guy, this cop, has a

history. I remember your famous phrase, your ego is not your amigo.

SCHACHER: Yes.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, on both sides. Let me just tell you something - I think ego is at play on both sides. I don`t necessarily

fully buy the passenger`s statement that it was solely because he was going to get shot, because once I learned he had a warrant that he knew about,

then all of a sudden I start to question, really? He didn`t want to get out of the car maybe because that would have led to his being stripped of

his liberty. OK, so that`s one thing. The second thing is, yes, this probably should have and could have been handled differently. But you`ve

got kids in the back seat, for that reason and because it`s completely lawful for law enforcement to ask you to exit the vehicle, or to show

identification, get out of the vehicle.

PINSKY: Vanessa, what do you say? Vanessa?

VANESSA BARNETT: To not understand why this man could be scared to exit his vehicle blows my mind. Did we not cover Ferguson for several days on

this show? And it`s not just him saying he`s scared, his friend is in the driver`s seat, who is the one that should the cops - should have been

focusing on - is screaming, telling the police, I`m scared for my life. I don`t` know what to do and I don`t think he should get out of the car.

EIGLARSH: So, Vanessa, Vanessa, first of all, I thoroughly understand, I don`t have to be a person of color to understand it. I get it. I`ve seen

enough problems with cops. But here`s the question, Vanessa. Should we change the law if you`re a person of color or just someone who fears

police, you don`t have to get out of the vehicle?

BARNETT: No, because the law does say that you can call the cops, you can call the police while you`re being pulled over, and they can send the

supervisor to defuse the situation, which is what they should have done. If there`s a valid fear there, and you see that the situation is

escalating, of course .

EIGLARSH: This is Ferguson?

BARNETT: Pulled out a gun and start shooting at people. He has kids in the back seat. They should have sent someone to defuse the situation.

PINSKY: All right. And I`ll hear from Evy after I talk to the driver and the passenger. But we all sort of feel weird about the amount of force

that was used.

BARNETT: Right.

PINSKY: No one disagrees about that.

POUMPOURAS: Yes.

PINSKY: Mark, even you?

EIGLARSH: Of course. But after 13 minutes.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: OK. All right. I`ve got on the phone Lisa Mahone and Jamal Jones. Lisa was the driver of the vehicle, Jamal a passenger. He was

tased ultimately. Dana Kurtz is their attorney. Lisa, first of all. - First of all, I thank you both for joining us. Lisa, how are your kids?

LISA MAHONE, DRIVER STOPPED FOR SEATBELT VIOLATION: They`re not doing well at all. My daughter is constantly crying. Actually she had another

episode this morning because the police came to my house looking for Jamal.

PINSKY: Why?

MAHONE: The first door they knocked on was her patio door, which is in her room. She woke up to the police knocking on her door this morning.

PINSKY: Why did they want - well, maybe let me ask him, but let me ask another question about your family before we get on with the story, Lisa.

You were on route to see your mother in the hospital. How did that turn out?

MAHONE: My mom passed away two days later.

PINSKY: I`m sorry.

All right. Sam.

SCHACHER: Yeah, Lisa, I have a question for you. You did call 911 because you felt that you guys were in fear, you questioned the motivation of the

officer. What did they say to you? Did they try to help or send somebody out there to defuse the situation?

MAHONE: No, he did not. He called Jamal dumb. He said, dumb man, look at the bars. He expects for a civilian to know what bars meant.

PINSKY: What do bars mean? Do I know what that means?

MAHONE: Bars represent, you know, a lieutenant, sergeant, corporal.

PINSKY: Oh bars on their - I see, so he - So there was a manager like Mark described. Mark, do you have a question?

EIGLARSH: Yeah, I do. Can you point to one thing that they did unlawful? We know that .

MAHONE: Everything, everything.

EIGLARSH: What was illegal?

MAHONE: Everything they did with that traffic stop was unlawful.

EIGLARSH: Tell me - tell me what was illegal about what they did? Now, I`m not saying they offered the best service. They, you know, I`m just

asking what was illegal?

MAHONE: Illegal was the way they were harassing the passenger. He had no right to question the passenger. He had his seat belt on.

EIGLARSH: Wait, wait, wait. Police don`t have the right to question occupants of a vehicle? Under what law is that? And they can certainly

ask for I.D. in that .

MAHONE: This is what I`m about to tell you.

EIGLARSH: Go ahead.

MAHONE: Only if that person was suspicious. If they were looking for someone .

EIGLARSH: That`s not true.

MAHONE: That fits that description that would get him the right to question the passenger.

EIGLARSH: Ms. Mahone that is just not - that is not the truth.

MAHONE: But I`m not law enforcement. Ask someone else that may know.

PINSKY: OK, let me - is Jamal there? Jamal, are you still there?

JAMAL JONES, TASED BY POLICE AFTER TRAFFIC STOP: Yes. Yes. I`m there and I`m listening to everything.

PINSKY: Are you OK?

JONES: Well, I`m fine.

PINSKY: You`re OK?

JONES: Yeah, I`m trying to be.

PINSKY: And why were the cops looking for you again?

JONES: They wasn`t looking for me.

PINSKY: There`s a warrant, that`s why. He`s got an open warrant.

JONES: All right, listen, they issued me out a warrant Friday. So now I know that I have a warrant. I didn`t know -- I wasn`t issued a warrant

until Friday.

PINSKY: OK.

JONES: They issued a warrant the day they pulled me over.

PINSKY: OK, got it.

JONES: I was cleared free like they even false arrested me that day anyway and when they arrested me, I bonded out and they let me go. They didn`t

say I had a warrant then.

PINSKY: OK.

JONES: So, there`s nothing that I have warrant for.

PINSKY: Got it. Evy has a question for Jamal or Lisa, which is it, Evy?

POUMPOURAS: Jamal, when they asked you to exit the vehicle, why did you not? I saw the tapes and it was a 13-minute dialogue when they requested

you to exit the vehicle. I know you had children in the back and you were concerned for them. When a ration decision would it have been to exit the

vehicle and engage in speak to the police at that point?

JONES: OK. Once they asked Lisa to get out of the car and she notified me that they had their weapons out, I didn`t even know the guys had their

weapons out, I was going to get out of the car. And he asked me to give them my ticket for he can get my information. And once I tried to get my

ticket, he didn`t want it, and that`s kind of like shaking up the situation when I asked can I get a white shirt, can I get a supervisor, because he

called me the dumb asses in front of the kid, you`re disrespecting me. You either stand - stand the drive. The driver - get out of the car. I`m not

getting of the car. What`s the problem? And that`s when he said, do you want to see your kids come out of the window? I said do I want to see my

kids come out of the window? I said no, I don`t want to see my kids come out the window. Of course, I want to see my - come out of the window. And

that`s when he went to his car and grabbed something and hit me with it and started tasing me.

PINSKY: All right, Jamal, hold on. Mark, you know, the police kind of have a PR problem if nothing else, right? Wouldn`t you think they would

want it like to use tactics that are not so aggressive? Or this guy seemed so threatening to them?

EIGLARSH: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes?

EIGLARSH: Let me - let me - no, no, no. Let me say that this could have been handled differently. But I am asking this passenger, does he feel at

least partly responsible for having the children see that type of behavior? Is it he teaching them that you resist law enforcement instead of

cooperating? Isn`t he partly responsible?

PINSKY: I will - I admit that.

EIGLARSH: Is he willing to admit that?

BARNETT: He`s not teaching his kids. He`s teaching his kids, he was scared. We gloss over that to act like that isn`t a valid concern that

this man had. He called the police, the young lady in the driver`s seat, Lisa, called the police, which is within their rights. Now, if you`re

telling me, if I feel scared, if I feel feared, that I can call the police and someone else will help the situation and that`s not happening, and I

have police outside with guns.

PINSKY: Vanessa. Vanessa.

BARNETT: And bars and all this. It`s a lot of confusion happening. And we don`t know .

PINSKY: We`re going leave it right there.

BARNETT: . what happens if he got out of the car?

PINSKY: We`re going to leave it right there. We`re going to leave it. That question is going to just sit in the vapors for a few minutes.

Because we`re going to bring them back after the commercial break. The question really is, OK, and later on after the break, we`re going to talk

about a ten-year-old who kills a 90-year-old woman. What happened? We will hear from him. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to open the door?

DRIVER: Why do you say somebody`s not going to hurt you? People are getting shot by the police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ah!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously, there was some type of profiling going on, because he shouldn`t have been asked to get out of the car.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY: It`s important to include the fact that this guy resisted getting out of the car for 13 minutes.

BARNETT: Why so aggressive? Why a taser? There are kids in the back of the car.

PINSKY: Well, let`s .

PASSENGER: I told y`all I had kids in the car, man. Why would you all do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are so programmed to think that black men are criminals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man was fearful for his life. And as a black man, I can tell you that I would not get out of the car either.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officers don`t know who this person is, they don`t know his name, they don`t know if he has a weapon, they don`t know if he

has a warrant out for his arrest.

EIGLARSH: What I see at play on both sides is ego.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam. We`re going to bring in our behavior bureau. Tiffanie Davis-Henry, HLN contributor, psychotherapist, Judy Ho, the

psychologist and professor of Pepperdine University and Emily Roberts, psychotherapist.

The family involved in that disturbing incident has filed a federal lawsuit claiming police used excessive force. They will be rejoining us in just a

sec. And I want to get to my panel. I want to ask you first, Tiffany, what should police have done in your opinion?

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D.: Well, obviously I think they could have finessed this a lot better. But I certainly do hear what Vanessa said in

the last - and certainly what Jamal is saying.

I think that right now, black men in this country don`t know whether to do what the officer is saying to do or not do. It seems as though there have

been so many instances that we`ve talked about where we even when they do the right thing, even when they obey the law, and even when they do what

the officer is asking them to do, they still end up dead. And I`m sure that this guy, that Jamal, it ran through his mind I don`t want my kids to

see me die today. And so, do I get out of the car or not get out of the car? Certainly, I would have said, get out of the car. Do whatever the

officer is asking you to do, but I understand why he didn`t.

PINSKY: Well, Judy, what do we do with that kind of thinking? Is there some intervention we should be taking to get people out of that mindset?

HO: Intervention has to happen at the community level, as well as on an individual level. So, this is kind of a difficult undertaking, because you

want to have a community be able to say to these individuals, listen, we`re not going to -- here`s the stuff that you should follow if you want to

ensure your safety and here`s what you should be listening to. But because there is so much fear, who would go to these public education sessions? So

unless the individual wants to take that up on their own in the psychotherapy or something, how would we actually address it?

PINSKY: Yeah. Right. Sam?

SCHACHER: Well, not only that, Dr. Drew. You look at this police officer, and he had three other incidents in addition to this one. So what did the

police department do? I`m curious. Did he have to undergo additional training? Did he have to undergo anger management? Did it not work? If

it didn`t - why is he still in the field? Because that one bad apple does spoil the rest of the barrel. There`s a lot of good police officers, and

that affects the community`s perception on the police. And that worries me, because a lot of people right now don`t have that much faith in their

police officers.

PINSKY: And finally, Emily, what about trauma to the kids in the back seat? What do we - what can we worry? Should we worry about that?

EMILY ROBERTS: I would, absolutely. I think that you`re going to see - even she just said earlier that her daughter was crying. We`re probably

going to see some separation anxiety from the little girl. I`m curious, though, to see how the older, the young man is doing. 14, I believe, was

his age.

PINSKY: Yeah, that`s right.

ROBERTS: And I`m wondering what kind of - you know, his relationship will be like with the law. But also, is he suffering from any, you know, sort

of sadness, is he withdrawn, is he more aggressive? I would like to know a little bit more about that, because that`s some of the things that we might

see play out here. Based on what .

PINSKY: So, I worry about the cycle, I`m worried about that. That now we have got another kid who is going to be anxious around the police. Lisa

and Jamal, Lisa Mahone and Jamal Jones, and their attorney Dana Kurtz are all still with me on the phone. Dana, I want to give you a chance here.

Police say they followed policy. If they in fact followed policy, is it the excessive force and the aggressiveness we are all sort of reacting to

that led to the lawsuit?

DANA KURTZ, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY: Well, that`s a big concern, if they were following policy, what - the policy at the Hammond police department is to

allow their officers to engage in excessive force? You can tell from the video that these officers went beyond the bounds of reasonableness. First

of all, Jamal tried to give them his I.D., his identification and they refused. He asked for a supervisor. Lisa called 911 and asked for a

supervisor to come to the scene. So what I`m hearing is this consistently blaming the victim, why didn`t Jamal get out of the car?

BARNETT: Yeah.

KURTZ: Jamal did everything right. He asked for supervisor and that department should have sent a supervisor to the scene to deescalate the

situation. Instead, they`ve got a rogue officer out there abusing the public and engaging in excessive force. To taser someone, to smash in a

window with small children. There were far more things that officer could have done if he wanted Jamal out of the car. First of all, he could have

taken his identification.

PINSKY: And Jamal, if the police .

KURTZ: He could have done a lot of things.

PINSKY: If the police had not drawn their guns, would you with that then have said, you have to exit the vehicle, you think?

JONES: No, I would have got out of the car. I was asking for supervisor, I would have got out the car. I never showed them no aggression. I had my

kids. We`re on our way to a death. We were very emotional at the time.

PINSKY: Yeah. And Lisa, I`m going to ask you the question that I think a lot of people are sort of fussing with, and it`s inescapable as a sort of a

background in all this, which is would this have unfolded differently if your family had been white?

MAHONE: Yes.

JONES: It would have been different.

MAHONE: Yes, it would have been different. Do you know, he pulled guns out and then at the end of the day, he never even searched the vehicle? He

never even searched the backpack that he thought Jamal was pulling the gun out of. So, why did he pull out .

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Tiffanie, I want to give you your last thoughts here?

DAVIS HENRY: I`m just really saddened by all of this, Dr. Drew. I must admit that, you know, I`ll say it again, I understand where this is coming

from. And we have a history in this country of police brutality and I get where it`s coming from, but I`m so sorry that this has happened to this

family, and so sorry certainly, Lisa, for your loss.

PINSKY: OK, guys, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, panel.

Next up, a ten-year-old boy accused of killing a 90-year-old woman. What his mother said might surprise you. And later, companies are offering to

pay for women to freeze their eggs and then continue on in their careers. And the question here is, why many on social media think this is a bad

idea. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The crime, the arrest, and the charges have stunned this normally quiet part of northeastern Pennsylvania. Fifth grader

Tristan Kurilla, who is ten years old, is now behind bars in Wayne County`s prison facing a criminal homicide charge. As an adult, state police say

the ten-year-old came up behind 90-year-old Helen Novakwhile she was sitting on a bed at this home. Kurilla is accused of choking her for

several seconds with a walking stick and then punching her at least five times in the throat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Wow! Back to Sam. Some of these pictures of him are from Facebook. It`s a ten-year-old boy in jail charged with criminal homicide

for the death of a 90-year-old woman. Sam, who was she in relation to this little boy?

SCHACHER: Right. Well, the boy`s grandfather was the 90-year-old woman`s caretaker, Dr. Drew. And according to the police affidavit, the boy says

he went into the woman`s room and she yelled at him to get out. This allegedly upset him and then he became violent. He told the police "I

killed that lady."

PINSKY: Bring back Mark, Vanessa and Evy. We have also some late-breaking news on this story. We just learned that according to a search warrant,

the boy appeared to be plotting an escape. Police say he had written "How to Escape" on a notebook page. And there were some instructions, the ideas

there. Mark, the ten-year-old being charged as an adult with criminal homicide. And now he`s in jail. A ten-year-old as an adult, why?

EIGLARSH: Because the law in Pennsylvania sucks.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

EIGLARSH: It is the first time - first time I`ve ever seen anything like this. Because he`s charged with homicide, that makes him ineligible for

juvenile court. He`s then bound over as an adult. The way I read this law, you know, a toddler and another toddler get into a fight. One gets

killed. You`re going to go as an adult to adult court. It makes no sense. And I`ll tell you this, I`m not justifying his behavior. It`s abhorrent,

we`ve got to get to the bottom of it. But to spend decades in prison, a ten-year-old? I don`t get it.

PINSKY: You know, a ton of response from our viewers on Facebook. We asked about the story. Sam, what do you have?

SCHACHER: Yeah, that`s right, Dr. Drew. So we have one right here. Bryan says, "Yes, death penalty. If he doesn`t learn now, he never will."

Shelly writes, "These kids today are different. Don`t forget that. And yeah, he needs to be charged as an adult. You`re grown enough to do the

crime, now you do the time." And from Bruce, who disagreed with the previous two, said what the hell? He is a kid, he needs help. He doesn`t

need the death penalty. And he won`t get it. He was only trying to hurt her. This child needs to be helped, not sent to jail.

PINSKY: Well, Evy, I`ve got to admit. You`re always going to evil and the most sinister aspects of the human experience. And here`s a pretty good

candidate for somebody that`s not likely to get better. What do you do with this?

POUMPOURAS: I think that this young man has a lot of psychological issues. I think that we have an onset of some type of psychopathic disorder. And

this is why I say this, the mother herself gave consent to the police to interview him. She did not want to be in the room. And she said I have

problems controlling him. She`s even told her lawyer to let the police keep him in jail. So, that has to tell you what this child has been doing

historically to concern this mother to this point. So I have to say, Dr. Drew, there`s something deeper, maybe a psychological issue, a sinister

issue perhaps. He`s a young man. I don`t know if jail for life is the answer, but I think we have a serious problem.

PINSKY: And there is such a thing as institutions for the criminally insane. There are such places, and when kids have infections in their

brain, they have certain genetic proclivities, they have certain environmental experiences, any of these things can add up to really serious

lifetime trouble. The mom described him as mental difficulties. He`s been violent in the past. He "lies all the time." Vanessa, I know you want to

get in here. Go ahead.

BARNETT: Well, yeah, first of all, I want to say the death penalty is outrageous for a ten-year-old.

PINSKY: Yeah.

BARNET: That just blows my mind. But I will say, there needs to be swift action taken. This ten-year-old has killed a person. This woman lived to

90 years old and to die like this is just devastating. And for this mother to say that she saw these signs in this young boy for many, many times and

many, many years, then why wasn`t there something done before he killed someone? And if we don`t do something now, this ten-year-old will be a 20-

year-old killing someone.

PINSKY: That`s true.

BARNETT: And we`ll all be back on this show.

PINSKY: That`s probably true.

BARNETT: Saying we should have handled it now.

PINSKY: And Evy, do you remember that movie "Something about Kevin?" It`s a movie about .

BARNETT: Oh, my god, I saw that movie.

PINSKY: OK, well, that - does .

BARNETT: It freaked me out.

PINSKY: Does this not remind you of that, Vanessa?

BARNETT: Yes!

PINSKY: Yes. This is .

BARNETT: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Which was a very accurate portrayal of how these conditions, it`s a bona fide condition. Evy calls it .

POUMPOURAS: You know what concerns me - he says to the police, I didn`t kill that lady.

BARNET: I know.

POUMPOURAS: So you are only - You hear a disconnect, like he doesn`t appreciate human life. Because it`s that lady over there. And think of it

this way, to take a weapon, to take a cane and to hit someone repeatedly, think about that, over and over and over again.

EIGLARSH: We are all in agreement.

POUMPOURAS: You have to think what psychological mind-set is that individual to think that that is appropriate?

SCHACHER: Why does he have access to a pen or pencil in a jail if he so easily can use things as weapons? I don`t like the idea of him having

anything in jail.

PINSKY: That is an interesting question.

POUMPOURAS: It`s an - you know what, they see him as a child. And there is this - there is this perception .

SCHACHER: Feel such a pain.

POUMPOURAS: Yeah.

EIGLARSH: So, give adults - Here`s the thing. It seems like we`re all in agreement. Nobody signs off on the behavior. The kid potentially is

dangerous. Here`s the question, I just throw this out there, I don`t have the answers. I know that death penalty is absolutely ludicrous.

PINSKY: Right. Right.

EIGLARSH: But knowing that you might be able to hold him for - in juvenile court assuming there were juvenile sanctions, for 10, 11 years on the

highest end.

PINSKY: Yeah.

EIGLARSH: Isn`t that sufficient so that his brain, and pull out that brain of yours, Drew, if you`ve got it, can develop and he can grow?

I mean it`s .

PINSKY: I will tell you what, I will address that with the behavior bureau. You`ll hear from the behavior bureau and this guy, this kid`s

attorney, as well. Thank you, panel.

Later, some companies, as I`ve said repeatedly in this show, are now paying for women to freeze their eggs and then keep on working, to pursue their

career. Why some women do not support this plan? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten-year-old Tristan Kurilla would normally be in class. A fifth grader. Instead, he`s locked up, facing criminal homicide,

accused of killing 90-year-old Helen Novak over the weekend while he was visiting his grandfather, who was Novak`s caretaker.

BOY`S ATTORNEY: Tristan really kind of doesn`t have an idea of kind of what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s got to be a better way than for him to sit in prison.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope the kid gets help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau - Tiffanie, Judy, Emily. It`s the most tweeted story of the day, a ten-year-old charged as an adult

for the beating death of an elderly 90-year-old woman. Pictures of him are from Facebook. We heard from Mark, Mark Eiglarsh that state law in

Pennsylvania requires someone to be treated as an adult if he`s to be charged with homicide. For this boy already, it means jail time. Here is

what his lawyer said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOY`S ATTORNEY: I think he just thinks he`s going for an overnight the way he would any other time. Although he - I don`t know if he understands the

-- where he`s going and where he`s being housed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: All right. Now, Tiffanie, we now know some of the hallmarks neuro-biologically of psychopathy and sociopathy, and I sort of

differentiate between psychopaths and sociopaths. And psychopaths to me are - people that really start around this age hurting animals, hurting

people and then evolve into sometimes serial killers. Sometimes they get better, though. The gentleman that did a lot of the research, - was doing

research on the brain scans of psychopaths. He did his own brain scan as a control, and lo and behold, he had some of those same mechanisms .

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Yeah. And was like oh my god, I`ve got the same thing. And he - but he was aware, but he was kind of aware there was something peculiar

about him. But he`d compensated for it. But do you think, Tiffanie, think there`s a possibility of this getting better?

DAVIS HENRY: Well, if it`s caught early. And certainly, it sounds like this is probably some behaviors like this may have been going on for a

while. The mom is not OK with this kid coming home, which says to me that she may be fearful and she doesn`t know quite what to do. She`s at a loss.

So, I think right now the best thing for this little boy is the treatment. And certainly I hate to say this, jail or some type of confined facility,

whether it`s a treatment facility or jail may be the best place for him, because we know where he is and we know he`s being kept safe. We know he`s

not going to hurt anyone else. And so, right now that`s the most important thing. No danger to himself and no danger to others.

PINSKY: And Judy, Mark asked the question before the break which was, is - if he were tried as a juvenile and spent 12 years in some sort of -

something - rehabilitation, is there any possibility of him coming out and not being a problem?

HO: Dr. Drew, the rates of recovery for individuals who develop this type of aggressive behavior at this young edge is extremely low. And from the

literature, the best type of treatment that we have is cognitive behavioral therapy for these young minds. However, it`s always a challenge. Most of

the times these kids who actually turn the system in their favor. They`ll use treatment as a way to manipulate. And as you mentioned, there are so

many neurobiological markers when it shows up this young. They`re very, very hard to rehabilitate. There are serotonin problems, problems with the

prefrontal cortex .

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: Low skin conductance.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: So, they`re always going to want to seek excitement in dangerous ways.

PINSKY: Sam, so they responded - the amygdala, the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex sort of offline. Yes.

SCHACHER: Amygdala - Bamygdald, Dr. Drew. All I know is this ten-year-old killed this woman with his bare hands by using her cane because of the fact

that she yelled at him. That is horrifying. I don`t want to see what this kid turns out to be in 11 years, 12 years. When he`s 21-22 years old. I

don`t want him around any of my loved ones. So yes, of course, the question is, can he be rehabilitated? But somebody like that, and you just

heard what Judy said, it looks highly unlikely. Very scary.

PINSKY: I actually agree. Emily, I want get you to ring in here. Let me read again what it was - he had done to somebody, held there. Can you put

that previous data up there about the holding the cane against the throat. OK, pressed the cane against her throat for four or five seconds. Punched

her five times in the throat and the abdomen. Emily, nature or nurture is the question I like to ask you. Is there any way this is not at least

both? I don`t see how even the most terribly abusive circumstances somebody becomes this violent without some kind of a brain disorder.

ROBERTS: The switch has to flip, right? There has to be some sort of biological aspect. But at the same time, I really believe that there is

something bigger here going on. The mom doesn`t want the kid back. He - where is dad - there`s got to be a piece here that`s trauma. I can`t say

it enough. I really believe that there`s no way this kid turned out this way if there was no neglect, if there was no exposure to something, either

in utero or in his life.

PINSKY: Well, but it could have been encephalitis or something, it could have been some sort of brain disorder, you know, in development, right?

ROBERTS: It could have, absolutely. And also would we have known that when he was born? Possibly.

PINSKY: Yeah.

ROBERTS: I feel like, I really am, though, kind of placing some blame here on the environment. No one is born evil. No one .

PINSKY: Tiffanie, last word. Tiffanie, last word.

DAVIS HENRY: Well, I want to go back to something that Judy said. And I`ve seen it so many times in the jail system, but also in hospital and

treatment facilities. That a lot of times kids learn the worst behaviors when they`re in treatment.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. That`s what worries me.

DAVIS HENRY: Or in jail.

PINSKY: That`s what worries me.

DAVIS HENRY: Yes. So, when getting out - I don`t know.

PINSKY: Yeah. But there are - again, there are treatment facilities that they`ve determined that he`s criminally insane. If that - sort of

resources. We`ve got to leave it there, guy. Next, our panel has a lot to say about this next story. Companies paying for women to freeze their eggs

and keep on working. Solve that problem how to get women to be able to sustain their careers if they wish. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY: Work, work, work, and having children, was like, if you had a child, and you were a woman, it was like you were the anomaly, oh my

god. I`ve just seen so many women do that job and not have a family afterwards.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: Women are focusing on career and not so much on family. So I think it`s a great incentive.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: People are delaying marriage. There`s some data that came out that said marriage is at an all-time low. And so, maybe they`re just

delaying it. May be if you`re able to delay child rearing, you can also get your career objectives met.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are so career driven, and sometime they don`t have the time to figure out how to balance being a mother and - I mean for us

men, it`s easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Vanessa, Mark and Tiffanie. And that was from our after show on - it`s a Facebook after show. It`s now - producers -

yes, and hlntv.com, you can get it there as well. And what we were discussing last night, and again, we`ll probably discuss the same topic

again tonight, though I`m not sure yet, we are going to - we are going to talk - we are going to talk about, you have to tune in to see. We were

discussing last night was that Facebook and Apple, progressive companies are offering fertility options for their female employees. The company`s

benefit packages now will covering the cost of freezing eggs, up to $20,000 for that procedure. Is this the question, I`ll start out with Tiffanie is

this about women or is it about their own bottom line and keeping their employees engaged in work?

DAVIS HENRY: I`m sure it`s probably a little bit of both. And certainly if I were working for one of those companies, I`d be honest here, you know,

I just had a baby seven weeks ago, seven weeks ago today. And certainly, I have put off having a child for probably - I`d say, probably the past five

years because of things that I wanted to do career wise and things that my husband and I wanted to do, you know, socially, like travel. So I

understand it, and certainly if I had insurance benefits that would have allowed me to freeze my eggs, I would have done it. So I applaud them for

taking this step and allowing their employees the option of freezing their eggs if they want to. They`re not saying every woman has to do it, but the

option is there. And I love that about this company.

PINSKY: Vanessa, you`re uncomfortable with this?

BARNETT: I - look, I know we want to say yeah for them to being, you know, on top of this and being ahead of women`s issues at the - But I want to

caution us to -- in celebrating the fact that these companies that make money off of these women are telling them to put their careers first. I

would be happier if there were more things in place to help women like me. I`m 30. I didn`t put off having kids. I`m a working mom. I work very

hard and I love my child very hard. And I would love to see if there are more things in place to help women who decide to do both .

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: I`m very pro-family. You hear that for me all day long.

SCHACHER: But they also do have, really quickly, they do have a lot of pro-family benefits. They have more than most companies extended maternity

leave. So, this is just another additional option.

PINSKY: Childcare?

SCHACHER: Yes. Yes.

BARNETT: This is option.

SCHACHER: Right. But it`s just another additional option. And hey, my biological clock is tick, tick, ticking. And I wish that CNN followed

suit. Just saying.

PINSKY: Mark?

EIGLARSH: Yeah, Drew. I mean they`re offering to pay $10,000. $500 for storage. This is the brain. You`re not the only one with this brain.

SCHACHER: You are holding a brain?

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: The thing`s breaking. They brought it in here, the thing is breaking. I mean here`s the point. This is the average brain of an Apple

and Facebook CEO. The front portion, I have no idea which one is a front, is fully formed.

PINSKY: I can`t tell either, the way you .

EIGLARSH: Right. The point is, their judgment and reasoning is sound. They`re a business.

PINSKY: Yes.

EIGLARSH: They`re here to make money. And if women have to choose between their career or getting pregnant, that`s not a good thing. So, it`s a win-

win for everyone. It is eggs-actly right.

SCHACHER: Oh my god.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: That`s my issue. Why does it have to be choosing of the two? That`s .

PINSKY: I like the options, I like the fact that it`s using technologies. I like the fact that it`s easy. It`s an evolving landscape that gives

women more option and powers, women, people are - backing women, putting money where their mouth is. But Sam, I`m understanding is, that social

media reaction has been mixed.

SCHACHER: Oh, yeah, "mixed", Dr. Drew? It doesn`t seem like that they`re in favor of it at all.

BARNETT: Wow.

SCHACHER: Yes, I have Rebecca right here, "duh, they`re putting their interest at the top. This is just a little incentive plan to keep young

female talent focused on the company`s interest, not their own." From Mary, "I find it really creepy that companies will get on board with this.

It`s a woman`s decision.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Exactly. They should have to pay for their own egg freezing." And from Teresa, "Paying a good salary wage, with good benefits, job

sharing, flexible time and supporting child care benefits would be more helpful to families. Which they have that too, Dr. Drew. And the

motivating factor here is because they also want to entice more women to come into their workforce.

PINSKY: Right.

EIGLARSH: Yeah, you know.

SCHACHER: Let me - dominate male.

EIGLARSH: And damn them for giving a dental plan. They care too much about teeth!

SCHACHER: I know.

PINSKY: Come on! I just say .

SCHACHER: I think it`s my uterus. It`s a little different than my mouth.

PINSKY: That`s all.

BARNETT: It is my choice.

PINSKY: We need.

BARNETT: And I`m just saying, that some women do need this. There are health issues, there are age issues. There`s different issues for every

family. I`m just saying, let`s not always celebrate the fact that they want career ahead of family.

PINSKY: OK, but these are .

DAVIS HENRY: But there are also women who want to put their career ahead of family.

PINSKY: That`s right. You guys, I`ve got to get out. I`ve got to get - but I think it`s an important topic and I think it`s something I applaud

companies for at least addressing and focusing on it. Reminder, you can find us any time on Instagram at Dr. DrewHLN. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was exposed. And then she got on an airplane. A second nurse who treated American patient zero Thomas Duncan, she is now

battling the Ebola virus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She flew on airplane the day before being diagnosed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she defy their orders? Or did they not give her any orders? It`s really unclear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact that Ebola is spreading and the government appears to be several steps behind in the battle to stop it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest story here is that someone who was exposed to Ebola, who was supposedly being monitored, albeit a passive surveillance

system, was allowed to get on a plane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was allowed to get on an airplane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Evy, Mark and Tiffanie. A second nurse as we heard who treated the original Ebola patient in Texas has now contracted

the illness from the Virus. The big concern, she flew on a commercial flight to Cleveland and back to Dallas. Someone at the CDC apparently told

her she was clear to fly, even though she reported that she had, I believe she reported that she had exposure and that she had a low-grade

temperature. So, my question, Mark, let me start with you first. Are people more fearful of the virus and the disease or the fact that hospitals

and seemingly infection control measures aren`t working?

EIGLARSH: Both. I mean everybody is panicking, and you know what, they have every reason to. I`m big into fear being false, evidence appearing

real, stay calm. But you had the head of the CDC come out and say that the nurse, number one, who got it, violated protocol. And then we have a

survey that just came out where three quarters of nurses surveyed said they didn`t know what the protocol was. This is a problem.

PINSKY: You know what, though, I`ve got to say so, and Tiffanie, I`m actually -- I`m not happy that people are getting sick, but I am actually -

welcome this opportunity. We`re going through a slow motion rehearsal. Because this is a very noncontagious virus. I mean it`s very contagious if

you`re in contact with a patient with the fever, for at least three days duration, by the way, but it`s not a highly contagious situation. And if

we ever get in a circumstance where we are - we really do have a pandemic, we`re seeing where the holes are in our system.

DAVIS HENRY: Yeah, we`re definitely seeing where the holes are. And I think that`s the problem and that`s what scaring people. Is that there are

so many holes. And we thought we had this thing licked. I mean we got the guy - the first guy to come back and he went to Emory. He was cared for.

He came out of that hospital, and he looked good. Now we`re seeing other patients and we just had a patient last week to die from it. So where is

the discrepancy there in terms of our care, in terms of the loopholes? And then now, our caregivers are getting sick. And that`s what the most

troubling for us.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: Yeah, but Dr. Drew, come on. They should have instilled some protocols before this happened. I`m sorry, my sister is an E.R. nurse.

And I would be out for blood if she contracted this Ebola virus because she was caretaking for somebody else that had Ebola, yet nobody was properly

training them, nobody was properly teaching them how to remove the hazmat suits. So they don`t contract the virus. I`m sorry, they should have done

this beforehand. Because now there`s two nurses who are fighting for their lives.

PINSKY: Now, I want to show you another image. Twitter is freaking out over this. Evy, look at this. The guy in yellow, that`s the Ebola patient

Amber Vinson. If you guys put that picture up. She`s about to be transported to Emory hospital Atlanta. But see the guy in the black pants

with .

POUMPOURAS: Yes!

(LAUGHTER)

SCHACHER: What is going on?

PINSKY: Evy, any concern about that?

POUMPOURAS: You know, I have been extremely critical about the way this has been handled. We have taken a reactive approach rather than a

proactive approach.

PINSKY: But this is how government works. Isn`t that just - the government .

POUMPOURAS: You know what, and I was in government, and that`s why when we started talking about this, and I remember the doctor was saying that we

have on the last show, hey, we have to trust government. Government does not always get it right. We have had a very relaxed pompous attitude.

We`re the United States of America. We know what we`re doing. Apparently we don`t. The problem is, it`s not the CDC that comes in, everybody, and

says hey, step aside, everyone, we got this. It`s the local - the local hospitals, the local officials who handle the problem. They are not

trained. They don`t know what to look for. The government has done a poor job of getting out there. The minute we saw the onset of Ebola in West

Africa, we should have been on the ball, prepping everybody, training everybody, putting a plan in place rather than having this reactive

approach. And now we are doing all these ..

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: 1992 is when that came on the radar. Do you think that it just came out last week?

PINSKY: Listen, I want to show you, guys, my Ebola quiz. I put it up on Twitter and I want everyone to take it. Here it is, how to know if you`re

at risk for Ebola, or you are likely to have Ebola? Please, put it up there. Do you have it? Do you have it? Question number one, have you

touched the vomit, blood, sweat, saliva, urine or feces of someone who might have Ebola? And I would say, someone with a fever, who`s had for a

few days. If the answer is no, you do not have Ebola. That`s it. You do not have it. And you don`t need to worry about it. It`s not going to

become airborne. So far no virus has ever made that transition to be able to concentrate - in a- and air - if they didn`t already have that

evolutionary capability. They`re not transmitted by vectors, like mosquitoes or insects. That`s a highly specialized virus or bacterium or

organism that can do that. It`s direct contact. So don`t, everybody, Clorox wipes for everything. Got to go, everybody, DVR us right now, then

you can watch us anytime. "Forensic Files" is up next and it begins now.

END