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Don Lemon Tonight
Ebola in America; Uncle of Texas Nurse Speaks Out; White House Ebola Meeting Tonight; Nurse Nina Pham's Plane Lands in Maryland
Aired October 16, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We have got a lot to talk about, our breaking news tonight, Nina Pham being rushed to National Institutes of Health Clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland.
She spoke earlier today in her Dallas hospital room and asked for the individually to be shared.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NINA PHAM, EBOLA VICTIM: Come to Maryland, everybody.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Party, party in Maryland? OK. Do you need anything?
PHAM: I don't think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. There's no crying. Well, happy tears are OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Meanwhile, the other nurse with Ebola, Amber Vinson, is being treated at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. I will talk exclusively to her uncle, who spoke with her today. We will get the very latest from him.
Also, for the third day in a row, President Barack Obama speaking on Ebola and opening the door to the idea of pointing an Ebola czar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It may be appropriate for me to appoint an additional person, not because the three of these folks have not been doing an outstanding job, I should mention them, and Susan Rice, my national security adviser.
It's not that they haven't been doing an outstanding job, really working hard on this issue. But they also are responsible for a whole bunch of other stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is your hospital ready to handle Ebola? We will get into all of that tonight.
But we have got a lot of breaking news to got to.
I want to go straight to Anderson Cooper at the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas, our Dr. Sanjay Gupta at Emory University and Hospital, a hospital in Atlanta. He will join us in just a little bit.
Anderson, let's talk about this video that was just released. And we hear directly from Nina Pham and the conversation she had with her doctor before she took off to the NIH in Maryland. Let's watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for being part of the volunteer team to take care of our first patient. It means a lot. This has been a huge effort by all of you guys. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't cry. Don't cry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we're really proud of you. All right.
PHAM: Come to Maryland, everybody.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Party, party in Maryland? OK. Do you need anything?
PHAM: I don't think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. There's no crying. Well, happy tears are OK. Otherwise, no tears. No crying. It's not allowed.
PHAM: I love you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, Nina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And, Anderson, Nina Pham asked the hospital to release this video. It's first time we have seen her. We have seen pictures of her. But this was very emotional.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It is, certainly, and obviously your heart goes out to her. Surrounded by people in space suits. The sense of loneliness and isolation has just has got to be extraordinary.
We should point out this is put out by the public relations department at the hospital. They took the time to subtitle and everything. This is a hospital which has been not transparent at all, which has been not been making any public statements, which has not informed other hospitals about what has gone wrong inside the hospital to help out those other hospitals, not informed the general public either about what went wrong. So, it, you know, you got to take it for what it is worth. This is
clearly an effort by the hospital to change the conversation, to seem as if they are being transparent. But it's certainly interesting to see Nina Pham and also interesting to see the suits that her caregivers are now wearing, a far cry from what nurses told us they were wearing and asked to wear early on in the treatment of the Ebola patient.
LEMON: I want to speak to Sanjay about that.
Sanjay, as we look at the video, this appears to be different gear, protective gear than the hospital workers had been wearing before. This appears to completely protect them at least from looking at the video.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question.
We do have a couple of different things to really point out. First of all, the hood comes all the way over the head. You have that sort of shield you can in the video there. I think we were seeing that just a little bit ago, but also something that Anderson had this conversation with a nurse working in the hospital before, that even with Tyvek suit, it only had come up to sort of the base of her neck.
There was that exposed skin on her neck. Obviously, with what you are seeing there with these nurses, it covers that part as well. Again, Don, it's just sort of basic stuff. If we have learned anything about Ebola, we have learned that it can transmit through the skin from infected bodily fluids, but you really want to protect all parts of your skin. Even a small amount of bodily fluid can cause that infection.
That's adequate protection, Don.
LEMON: Yes. Sanjay and Anderson, for the second day, the president canceled his travel plans to focus on Ebola. I want you to listen to what he said this evening about a travel ban from West Africa and then we will talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I don't have a philosophical objection necessarily to a travel ban, if that is the thing that is going to keep the American people safe.
The problem is, is that in all of the discussions I have had thus far with experts in the field, experts in infectious disease, is that a travel ban is less effective than the measures that we are currently instituting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Sanjay, the president doesn't believe a travel ban will work. Do most experts agree with that?
GUPTA: Yes, well, Sorry, Don. Didn't hear the top of that. But, yes, that was one of the big topics of conversation at the hearings. I think Dr. Frieden took probably more questions about that than anything else. And let me tell you something. He is absolutely against it. And basically his core point is that if you institute a travel ban, there is still going to be people who are going to arrive in the United States who are going to have Ebola, will be either carrying the virus in their body and not sick yet or ray becoming sick.
The problem is you can't track them then. You can't trace them. And that is the really important fundamental point to preventing outbreaks. If you -- if you don't have a travel ban, you can at least follow people as they come to the United States and keep an eye on them. Dr. Frieden feels very strongly about that. The president sounds like leaving the options a little bit more open than Dr. Frieden did.
LEMON: OK.
Anderson, the president also spoke about the problems seen in Dallas. But he also said his team was doing an outstanding job. Some are comparing that to Katrina and saying this is his heck of a job, Brownie, moment. Is that fair?
COOPER: Look, it is a certainly a different situation. Obviously, it's a statement which echoes that famous statement made by then- President Bush.
I think what I have been focusing a lot on are really the actions by the hospital themselves here. The CDC is actually pretty limited in terms of -- and Sanjay knows this better than anyone -- actually pretty limited in terms of what they can actually do. In movies, we imagine the CDC coming in and taking over a hospital. That's not the way it really actually works.
It is really up to each hospital and state health officials. And I think there are a lot of questions this hospital needs to answer. And as I said, they just have not been very transparent. On the travel flight, I talked to the -- the travel ban -- I have talked to probably about half-a-don't relief workers working right now in Liberia and elsewhere.
All of them say beyond the understandable fear of -- which is motivating the idea of a travel ban, the logistics of actually getting people to and from the disaster zones in order to actually treat people and to get supplies in, they're moving hundreds of people throughout each weeks, each organization.
They say just charter flights alone, that is going to be much more difficult. The key to all of this, Don, is not so much what is happening in the United States. That's obviously important, is getting -- tackling Ebola and defeating it in West Africa right now.
LEMON: Anderson, thank you very much. Sanjay, thank you. Both of you, stick around. We will get to much, much more on that with the president's comments a little bit later on, on this broadcast. Amber Vinson's trip was supposed to be full of the excitement and
planning her wedding, but it turned into a nightmare for the Ebola- stricken nurse and her worried family really.
Joining me now exclusively is Amber's uncle, Lawrence Vinson.
Good evening, sir. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN. How is Amber?
LAWRENCE VINSON, UNCLE OF AMBER VINSON: Good evening. Thank you.
Amber is doing well under the circumstances. I spoke to her today.
LEMON: Interesting. And what did she say?
VINSON: She said that she is feeling OK. We are really -- yes, we're thank impressed with the team caring for her. They have been very communicative with the family.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK.
I have to ask you this, which is information that we got earlier regarding her. It says that the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital nurse Amber Vinson skid she felt fatigue, muscle ache and malaise while she was in Cleveland and on a flight home, a federal official with direct knowledge of the case tells CNN.
Did she exhibit any symptoms? Did she feel fatigued when she was on her way home?
VINSON: She never conveyed that to me.
What Amber has directly told me is that felt fine, that she felt well until Tuesday morning. Tuesday morning, she woke up, felt that she should take herself in. She checked her temperature. It was actually below the threshold. She was 100.3. But she decided that she should go in.
LEMON: And this was when she was back in Dallas?
VINSON: That's correct.
LEMON: OK.
VINSON: She returned Monday evening.
LEMON: OK.
So it has been said that she contacted the CDC and asked about whether she should get on a plane because she had a temperature of 99.5. Is that correct?
VINSON: So, no, no, that's not accurate at all.
LEMON: What happened?
VINSON: Amber -- when the first nurse became symptomatic, Amber was already in Ohio.
And I guess health officials in Texas started to reach out to other nurses that were a part of that care team. And so the actual situation was that the nurses -- that that team had been told to monitor their own temperature. There wasn't a reporting requirement.
LEMON: So, they got in touch with Amber, right, while she was in Ohio?
(CROSSTALK)
VINSON: That's correct, and asked had she been monitoring her temperature and how did she feel?
And she told them that she had and that she was feeling fine.
So, when someone followed up with her Monday, just when she was getting ready to fly, she reported what her temperature was, and that she was on a return flight that afternoon. And so someone in Texas said, wait, let me check, and made several calls to the CDC to find out...
LEMON: So, Mr. Vinson, at no point to your knowledge did she ever contact the CDC? Someone, a health worker in Dallas contacted the CDC for...
(CROSSTALK)
VINSON: Absolutely. And to my knowledge, there is -- yes, at no point did she directly contact the CDC.
LEMON: And so that person from Texas got back to her and said what to her?
VINSON: That, after multiple calls, the CDC said that it was OK for her to fly.
LEMON: And so she flew and came home and not until Tuesday did she start to feel -- exhibit any symptoms.
VINSON: That's correct. That's correct.
LEMON: OK.
VINSON: So, yes, if in hindsight someone decides that there should have been flight restrictions, that's fine.
But to misrepresent and to say restrictions were in place, when they actually weren't, is inappropriate.
LEMON: Some of the nurses have shared and said they never felt as if they were in any imminent danger, because the hospital conveyed to them because of the precautions, the protocol, the suits and what have you, the gloves, everything they had in place, that they were fine. They weren't under a quarantine. They were just asked to monitor their temperature twice a day.
VINSON: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Are you saying Amber didn't feel that she was putting anyone in danger; is that correct?
VINSON: That's correct.
They were given gear that was supposed to provide isolation. And they were given protocols to follow that were led -- that they believed would protect them. And I believe that that was the feeling and the intent.
LEMON: Where are her parents now? Where is her mother? Where is your sister?
VINSON: My sister went to Dallas to be with Amber.
When the decision was made to move Amber to Emory, we were under the -- we were directly told -- not under the impression -- we were directly told that they would work transportation arrangements both for my sister and Amber's mom and her fiance. Later, they want to the hospital and were told, oh, Amber has already departed. And for...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: They put her on the plane to Atlanta without informing your mother -- her mother?
VINSON: Right, without informing her mother or her fiance.
And what we have been told for the last 24 hours is that they need to figure something out.
LEMON: How is her mother?
VINSON: She's as well as can be expected under the circumstances. She is obviously very worried, as we are all are.
LEMON: And her fiance?
VINSON: He is holding up well. This is not something that any family ever thinks they're going to have to deal with.
LEMON: He is her fiance. But you would imagine that they would be in close contact with each other. I mean, people who are in love kiss each other and all those things. Has he been checked out at the hospital?
VINSON: He has. He has been to the hospital. He has been given the same instructions given to the other health care workers, to monitor his temperature twice a day. LEMON: How do you feel your niece has been portrayed by the CDC and
-- because they're saying there had to be some sort of breach in protocol for the nurses to contract Ebola?
VINSON: I believe that there -- it doesn't necessarily mean that there was a breach in protocol.
There's obviously problems with the protocol and the procedures, and as evidenced by the fact that they have evolved and changed over time. I feel that there are certain unknowns and certain -- and some gaps in the process. And we are very disturbed by the effort to focus on perceived violations of rules that weren't in place.
LEMON: Yes.
I want to get something in, because I know this is important to you. You have been upset about some fund-raising efforts purportedly in Amber's name. And I want to give you the opportunity to clear up any confusion about that, that you would like.
VINSON: Yes, absolutely.
There are no phone or Internet fund-raising activities associated in any way with Amber or our family. So, for those who would like to help, at this point, we are just asking for your support and prayers. And anything purported to be in support of Amber, that is absolutely not the case.
LEMON: Lawrence Vincent, you have conducted yourself very well this evening. And your family should be proud of you coming on and sticking up for your niece. And...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Good luck...
(CROSSTALK)
VINSON: There is just one more message I would like to convey.
LEMON: Absolutely.
VINSON: So we have an entire team of health care workers who took on a very difficult mission.
We have two of the members of that team that have been severely impacted. But we understand that there was a much larger team who all were dedicated and noble and performing their duties. And we want to share our support for that entire community.
LEMON: Thank you very much, Lawrence Vinson. And our thoughts are with Amber, as well as everyone else who has been affected by this. Thank you very much.
VINSON: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
VINSON: Thank you.
LEMON: We are watching for nurse Nina Pham's arrival in Maryland tonight. We will bring you that as it happens. You're looking live now at live pictures. Don't go anywhere. We will bring that for you.
And when we come right back, charges that nurses in Dallas were not protected as they did heroic work treating Ebola patients. I will ask two congresswomen who are also nurses what they think went wrong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight.
Nina Pham, the first Dallas nurse to contract Ebola, is being transferred to a hospital run by the National Institutes of Health near Washington.
Back with me now is Dr. Sanjay Gupta, also Mary Schiavo, former inspector general for the Department of Transportation. She's now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents.
Sanjay, to you first. You are at Emory, where Amber Vinson, the second nurse, is being treated. We just heard from Amber's uncle. What is your immediate reaction to what you heard? He is saying that, to his knowledge, she never spoke of exhibiting any symptoms until she was already back in Dallas, a day or so afterward.
GUPTA: Yes, it's a little confusing.
Dr. Frieden was asked about that today during the congressional hearing, about whether or not the CDC had received a phone call from Ms. Vincent. And he confirmed that the CDC had in fact received a phone call from Ms. Vinson when she was in Cleveland prior to that second flight, the flight that would have taken her from Cleveland back to Dallas.
And at that time, she reported this low-grade temperature, 99.5, and wasn't told that she should avoid the flight. I thought that part had been established. But, of course, you know, Mr. Vinson has contact with his niece, I'm sure. Like so many things, Don, over the last couple of weeks, that is going to need to be clarified a little bit further.
LEMON: Yes.
Sanjay, I have to ask you, 99.5, I mean, is that a particularly -- I think the average is 98.6. I'm a layman here. Is that really that far out of the spectrum, out of the ordinary?
GUPTA: Well, you know, it is not. Right? That is a low-grade fever.
And what they say they typically are looking for is 100.4, but two things to keep in mind, Don. First of all, you want as many pieces of information as you can get. And one of the important pieces of information here is that she had just been taking care of a patient with Ebola who subsequently died of that.
You want to take that into account when you are sort of starting to piece this together, and also the fact that people can develop symptoms. Fever can often be the first sign of something else. You want to like see, are there other symptoms, even simply things like, does someone have redness of the eyes?
Dr. Frieden said a couple days ago that his position was that someone like Amber would be in a controlled movement category. What that means is, because of her contact with someone with Ebola, she shouldn't have gotten on a commercial flight at all. If she was going to fly, it would need to be charter flight. And she could drive places. But a commercial flight was a no-no. So, again, that didn't get transmitted down to her, obviously.
LEMON: Mary, we are talking about travel here, and you heard from the president just moments ago saying he is not philosophically opposed to a travel ban. He doesn't believe it will work, though.
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER TRANSPORTATION INSPECTOR GENERAL: Well, there are two parts to a travel ban.
You know, one, of course, the experts are saying, that if you sit next to somebody with Ebola on a plane, you have a small chance. Or that's what they're saying. Of course, some of those people are in moon suits when they say it, but that they have a small chance of getting it.
That's only one part of the equation. But here is the other part. I think Mr. Vinson helped shed some light on this. One person traveled who shouldn't have traveled. And his words were very interesting, because she traveled when she wasn't even sick yet.
And the CDC is now looking for 300 people to track and monitor. The World Health Organization says that, by December, there may be as many as 5,000 to 10,000 new cases a week. If just 1,000 of those people come here, we are looking at tracking 300,000 people. That will literally shut down our transportation system. It will not work.
LEMON: All right, Mary Schiavo, thank you very much.
Thank you, Sanjay. We will check in with you just a little bit later on, and, Mary, you too as well.
Did the Dallas hospital fail to use strict safety protocols in dealing with Ebola? Up next, I'm going to speak with two congresswomen who are also registered nurses.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A Dallas hospital admits it initially failed to diagnose Thomas Eric Duncan with Ebola. But it is fighting back against claims by a nurses union that safety protocols were not followed.
Joining me now is Congresswoman Renee Ellmers, a Republican of North Carolina who is a registered nurse, and Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson, Democrat of Texas, who is also a registered nurse.
I'm really glad to have you guys, because you have a real voice and understanding and a knowledge of this.
So, I want to ask you both, before we get started, about the president's comments tonight that he is not opposed to a travel ban and that he might be -- it might be time to appoint an Ebola czar.
Would you like to see the president make those changes, first to you, Representative Ellmers?
REP. RENEE ELLMERS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, yes, I would like the travel restrictions to be put in place, so that we can be protecting every American from a potential infection, as we have seen two nurses already contracting this terrible disease.
I don't know that a czar at this point is necessary. Another layer of bureaucracy is not the way that I would go with this. But, there again, the president needs to lead on this issue. We ask him to urgently put forward travel restrictions.
LEMON: Representative Johnson?
REP. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON (D), TEXAS: Well, you know -- I think that -- we have to understand that you can put travel restrictions from West Africa, but that doesn't mean that everyone leaving West Africa is going to come stay to the United States. Just as this patient did not. He stopped two places before he reached the country.
And so I wonder if it's worth it to stop all of that air traffic that would also keep us from getting help to them and keep us from getting our citizens back as they need to come. So I'm not even sure that that is an appropriate thing to do at this time.
LEMON: And Congresswoman, what about a czar, an Ebola czar?
JOHNSON: I happen to agree that I'm not sure that another layer of bureaucracy is going to help. '
LEMON: OK.
JOHNSON: I think, frankly, that we were not ready. We were not thinking of this and especially here in Dallas at that particular hospital. There were some glitches. The protocols were out. I had checked that out myself before that happened. But because they had not received anyone thinking about receiving anybody with it, had no forewarning that they would be receiving anyone with Ebola, they just hadn't thought about it.
LEMON: OK. I get it. So you're saying that, the health system was not prepared. I get where you're going, but I want to move on, because I want to ask you guys a couple things in the time that I have with you.
So Brianna Aguirre, who is the whistle blower from Texas Presbyterian Hospital, making stunning allegations about poor equipment and how the hospital responded to her fear. Let's listen to what she told our Anderson Cooper just a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIANNA AGUIRRE, NURSE: Why would my neck be exposed? Why do I have on two pairs of gloves, tape, a plastic suit covering my whole body, two hoods, a total of three pairs of booties including the one on my Tyvek suit, an apron, and my entire body is covered in at least two to three layers of plastic and my neck is hanging out? And I just, I just told them why would an area so close to my mouth and my nose, why would that be exposed? And they didn't have an answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Representative Ellmers, you were a nurse for 21 years. Are you shocked by what Brianna is saying?
ELLMERS: Well, you know, it is curious as to the protocol that they were following. However, when I look at nurses and I look at healthcare providers, we practiced and have practiced for decades universal precaution so that we can make sure we are safe, and we can make sure the patient is safe and that we're bring -- that we're not bringing germs home to our own families.
So, although I do believe that there was an incident that happened and occurred, I'm not sure what that is. And I -- I think that we have to be careful and identify the situation. And that's why I believe we need to move as quickly as possible and bring everyone together to solve this problem.
LEMON: Representative Johnson, I'm up against a break here, but I want to ask you, what would you like to see happen next? Being a member of the healthcare system and also a lawmaker.
JOHNSON: More training. More education. I think everyone is alerted now. And I hope that more training will take place.
LEMON: Representative Ellmers and Representative Johnson, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us here on CNN tonight. Should all of us be scared about going to a hospital. Just how safe is your hospital? Next we're going to get some answers from healthcare professionals.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news, everyone. Welcome back to CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
You're looking at the plane, that private plane which the nurse Nina Pham is on. It's now landed in Frederick, Maryland, at the municipal airport there. It took off earlier from Love Field in Dallas. Nina Pham is the first nurse, healthcare worker in the United States to contract Ebola. She's 26 years old. She was infected, again, by Thomas Eric Duncan, who is a Liberian man who came over from Liberia and showed up at her hospital. And she treated him.
They said that she is in good condition and improving. That's according to the other hospital she was at, the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital.
Federal health officials are saying the decision to move Pham from Dallas to the National Institutes of Health in Maryland is because -- it was in the best interests of the Dallas hospital, and they felt that she would be better taken care of there. And because they have a trained biohazard unit at the NIH, and they have confidence in the system there.
So again, Nina Pham, the 26-year-old nurse, just arriving, her plane. CNN's Brian Todd is in Bethesda, Maryland, and he joins us now at the municipal airport. And Brian -- Brian is at the NIH. They're moving her to the NIH as we look at her plane. They just think the NIH is better equipped to handle this.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They do, Don. And NIH is very well- equipped to handle this. The very specialized isolation unit in building ten behind me. It's called the special clinical studies unit at NIH. There's a real sense of anticipation here, because Nina Pham is the first ever Ebola patient to be treated here. They had a patient arriving here in late September, who was exposed to Ebola, but it turned out that he did not have the virus. So they released him after treating him briefly. Let him go.
Nina Pham is the first ever patient ever actually diagnosed with Ebola to be treated at this facility. So they have a real sense of anticipation, Don, for her arrival. They are ready for it. They have a range of treatments for a range of diseases here at the NIH, from cancer to TB, malaria to Ebola. So they are ready for this.
And this is a very specialized unit. Just two beds are available for Ebola patients. She's obviously going to be in one of them. The other one at the moment is empty. So this is a very high-containment isolation unit. They're anticipating her arrival.
The airport its about 35 miles north of here in Frederick, Maryland. After she lands, I'm sure they're going to have some preparations on the tarmac. And she's not going to be just taking off in the ambulance immediately. So we don't anticipate her arriving here for at least probably, I'd say, 40 minutes or so -- Don.
LEMON: And I would imagine that this would be the same thing that we saw yesterday with Amber Vinson as she was taken -- or last evening, she was flown from Dallas, Brian, to Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. You see the people around her. We saw it at least then, and I'm sure we'll see now in full protective gear.
And being -- and then we witnessed the ambulance carrying the patient being taken directly to the hospital, and we'll follow all of that. But, you know, again, health officials are saying, you know, there is no -- because one of the people who contracted this got on an airplane. They're saying it's not airborne, and they should not worry about it. But it is glaring that every patient who is transported, including the two original patients who were transported to Atlanta. They're transported by private plane. They're not transported by domestic commercial airlines. And so this is in an abundance of precaution. That's why people are
so concerned when a healthcare worker who has come in close contact with a patient, who has Ebola, that's the concern there, Brian Todd.
TODD: It sure is, Don. You know, every possible precaution is being taken. It's interesting, the visual that you just get from, in the transportation process. These patients were in full hazmat gear. You know, being transported by ambulance to these private planes.
It is a sense that this is an outbreak that is causing just an incredible amount of concern. And of course, with all of the -- the potential problems with air travel, associated with this outbreak and all the people who are potentially exposed, having to be tested.
And, of course, we've gotten a lot of false alarms with a lot of the people who have been on these flights with some of these people. But again, because it is such a highly contagious disease. They have to -- they have to use an abundance of caution, as you said.
And some of these images are still striking, though, when you see these people being transported in their heavy hazmat suits. We're told here that the doctors, nurses, everybody who comes in contact with Nina Pham is going to be heavily outfitted in a hazmat suit. They call them Tyvek suits, polyurethane with the protections woven into them. They're going to be wearing special gloves, isolation gowns, shoe coverings, things like that. All of that will be employed here, as well.
LEMON: And Brian...
TODD: So again, a real sense of -- yes.
LEMON: And as you're looking, I just want to point out that the bottom of your screen there, the amount of press and the crowd of people who are waiting outside of this airport just to witness this.
Again there was concern about Ebola, you know, coming here to the United States. And the initial concern, remember when Kenneth Brantly was the first person to be brought back here to Emory University. There was an outcry. You know you should not bring someone into the United States. Should not bring -- you know, this virus back to the United States.
And since then, we have seen movement on several patients now and witnessed very similar scenes as this. And, you know, to many it's becoming a -- all-too-common occurrence.
But again our health officials are saying that this is not spread, you know, through the air. It's not airborne. And most people have -- should not be concerned about this, should definitely not panic. But we -- we should be safe. The Centers for Disease Control has been holding press conferences just about every single day, updating the media and the public on the condition of the people who have come of in contact with Ebola. And especially the healthcare workers who are on the front lines. There was also -- there's also been some interest and some questioning
about why patients are being sent to -- to different hospitals around the country. Hospitals like the Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas, who may not be equipped to the level, that can handle sort of this situation, as we have seen. There have been several instances there, obviously, where people have become contaminated and have contracted the Ebola virus.
Emory University Hospital has treated several people. No one there has tested positive for Ebola and the treatment of those patients. And so now the National Institutes of Health, as Brian Todd has been reporting. There is a system in place, even though they have not treated any patient with Ebola.
It is believed that Nina Pham, the first healthcare worker to contract Ebola in the United States would be better off there. The hospital is better suited.
Brian Todd, again, how far is this airport from the National Institutes?
TODD: It's about 35 miles north of here, Don. That airport in Frederick, Maryland. A small, municipal airport. You know, the reasons for transporting her there are, I guess, fairly obvious. It's a small airport. A lot less congestion. And, and just a -- less of a disruption in potential air traffic in taking her there. Plus, it's a fairly straight shot down Route 270 to Bethesda, Maryland, from there.
So it's -- it's pretty obvious why they would think that that's kind of an easier route for her to take. More streamlined and bringing her here this late at night shouldn't be much of a problem traffic-wise in getting her here. So that is one of the considerations.
What's interesting also, Don, about NIH here where we are in Building 10 behind me. This facility, NIH, is on the front lines against the Ebola outbreak on two different fronts. Not only are they going to be treating the first ever patient they have here, diagnosed with Ebola, Nina Pham. But they're also working on an Ebola vaccine here. This is one of two facilities in the United States that are actually testing out an Ebola vaccine in humans. The other is Water Reed Army Institute of Research, here in suburban Maryland.
So two places here in the Washington, D.C., area testing out a potential Ebola vaccine on humans. And this is one of them. So the National Institutes of Health right behind me on the front lines of the Ebola outbreak in two different ways, Don, two very important ways.
LEMON: And so now, Brian, we are seeing the ambulance backing up towards the airplane. And we will see Nina Pham, along with a team of experts in full protective gear, exiting the aircraft soon.
Our chief medical correspondent, of course, is Dr. Sanjay Gupta. And Dr. Gupta, we have been witnessing these scenes. You have witnessed and reported through several of them. Take us through what will happen next? DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, so
you're -- you've got to keep in mind there's lots of people obviously involved with the transport. So obviously on the plane. And then getting her from the plane to the ambulance.
You've got, you know, for obvious reasons. People are going to be very careful if you're within three feet of the patient. Nina Pham in this case. You are considered a contact. And these are the people you're going to see in these full protective suits, getting her into the ambulance. And it's a pretty orchestrated thing, Don.
As you mentioned, it's kind of remarkable, you know. Up until a few months ago when Dr. Brantly came here, we'd never seen anything quite like this in the United States. And now, we're getting quite accustomed to it, frankly. And so this is the first patient, I think, going to the NIH. Specifically in this manner for the Ebola treatment.
But you know, this is a pretty well-orchestrated, well-planned thing. And when they get to the hospital, usually, it's a question of minimizing the amount of contact she'll have with anybody else in the hospital. Taken straight up to isolation and beginning her care.
LEMON: So again, if you're just joining us now, Nina Pham, the first healthcare worker in the United States to contract Ebola, now landed in Frederick, Maryland, at the municipal airport there, making her way to the National Institutes of Health. She was at the Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas, where a number of people, at least two healthcare workers, have come down with Ebola. Have been -- tested positive for Ebola.
Of course, that's where the first patient died in the United States, Eric Duncan. Thomas Eric Duncan came over from Liberia. And both of these healthcare workers, the one who is now in Atlanta, and Nina Pham, who is now in Maryland. Both of these healthcare workers treated Eric Duncan.
And so the stairs to the plane have come down. And Sanjay, you know, it's interesting because it is believed with Nina Pham that it was caught fairly early on. And there was video released of her tonight -- we believe it is tonight -- from her hospital bed. She was about to be transported. And she seemed to be in pretty good spirits. Did you look at it?
GUPTA: I saw that video. She certainly looked in good spirits. She was joking around with the doctor and the two doctors, the doctor and a nurse in the room.
You also got a good look at the protective gear. And I think there was a little bit of a statement being made there, Don. Obviously, there's been some criticism around protective gear overall not being adequate, part of the reason that Nina Pham and Amber Vinson, who's behind me now in this building, may have become infected in the first place.
That's not the case in this video. You see someone really -- really well-protected. No -- no skin around the neck being exposed. You see the hood coming all the way over the face shield. That is the standard gear.
And I can tell you, Don, even before Dr. Brantly arrived, we spent some time with the doctors here at Emory, as they were doing drills, doing training exercises, getting ready. And everybody -- anybody who walked into that unit did wear the gear like that. Fully covering them from head to toe. No skin showing. A very basic sort of core principle there, Don.
LEMON: Remind me, Sanjay. Brantly was taken to Emory. And Nancy Writebol, where was she treated again? Do you remember?
GUPTA: She was also treated here, Don, at Emory.
LEMON: Treated there, as well.
GUPTA: Both came here. Those are the first two patients.
LEMON: So my question is, Sanjay, as we're looking at, you know, the crew getting off the plane. The crew is not in protective gear. Is that because she's in a different part of the plane? Why is that?
GUPTA: Well, typically what happens in these planes -- and I haven't seen the inside of this particular plane -- is you can almost think of a bubble inside a bubble. I'm simplifying a bit. But the patient, in this case Nina Pham, would go into the internal bubble. And then you have sort of -- you have holes for people to put their hand in the bubble to be able to do things, provide care.
But in the -- outside the primary bubble there's a secondary bubble. And the healthcare workers sort of are in between those two bubbles.
And then the crew, you know, the flight crew. They're the ones sort of managing the flight itself. They're outside of those -- those bubbles. And because they're far enough away, because they're not in any kind of contact with the patient, they don't need to be in those same sort of protective suits.
Again, if you're more than three feet away, Don, you're not considered at risk. This is not an airborne virus, and so you could be five, six, ten feet away and be completely fine. And we've seen images of that over the last several days during the transports.
LEMON: Yes. That was a gentleman last evening with Amber Vinson when she was transported to Emory University Hospital where you are in Atlanta. And there was a gentleman who did not have protective gear. And everyone was asking why doesn't he have it? Isn't he too close? What's going on here?
GUPTA: Yes, the clipboard man, I think they're calling him. He was carrying a clipboard. And I think he's got a -- there's a Twitter account now about him. But he actually was a safety coordinator, person overseeing the safety of the transports.
Certainly, when you look at those images of him, you see him, lots of people in hazmat suits around him. And then the patient a few feet away. More than 3 feet away.
And you know, the optics of that is, wow, this seems like something has gone wrong here. Somebody is not dressed the way they should be. And you can understand how that causes confusion. But again the science regarding Ebola transmission, that's one thing that has stayed the same in all of this. That has the not changed. This is not an airborne virus. This is something that spreads only through direct contact with bodily fluids.
So again, somebody dressed without a hazmat suit a few feet away from a patient with known Ebola is not a risk. And that's why he was safe in that situation.
LEMON: Sanjay, I want you to stand by and help me through this. And I also want to bring in Ann Twomey. She's a registered -- she's a registered nurse and president of the -- health professionals and allied employees. And Deborah Burger, a registered nurse and co- president of National Nurses United. And Dr. Alexander Garza is a former assistant secretary of health affairs and chief medical officer in the Department of Homeland Security.
So Ann Twomey, you know what's interesting. We have been listening to the nurses. We've heard from the family of Amber Vinson, who is saying, you know, initially they didn't think they would be exposed to this. But as time went on, they started to worry about it, especially their skin being exposed here.
As you have listened throughout this evening, what do healthcare professionals need here? And will it be handled differently, Ann Twomey, now at the National Institutes of Health?
ANN TWOMEY, PRESIDENT, HEALTH PROFESSIONALS & ALLIED EMPLOYEES: You know, it's a great question. You know, there is some clear lessons to be learned from all of this. And the lessons are -- there has to be clear defined protocols and procedures. And they have to be developed at the hospitals, but also with the -- the front line caregivers that are actually going to be affected by them.
And training, education, can't be taken for granted. It seems to me that these two nurses did not get that. That they were put into a situation. And it was just expected that their -- that the normal routine of isolation procedures should kick in.
Well, this is different. And we're -- I would also say that there has to be dedicated teams of volunteers that -- that work in this environment. It shouldn't just be -- it shouldn't be everybody. It should be -- clear teams of healthcare workers, not just nurses. Not just doctors. But you're also talking people from the lab, and you're talking about the housekeepers. People take care of the laundry.
LEMON: Do you think -- do you think the National Institutes is a better place for her?
TWOMEY: Clearly. They're prepared for this. And I'm sure that those who are taking care of her have -- this is -- they've gotten the training. They know the protocol. That there are clear steps. That, you know, they know -- have to be taken for every -- every aspect of her care. I don't think that took place in Texas.
LEMON: OK. I want to get to Deborah Burger. Deborah, you joined us here on CNN, and you have been updating us on what you -- how you feel the situation has been handled, especially with the nurses and what they -- what you feel they've been exposed to.
You know, Amber Vinson's family has been very supportive of the healthcare workers on the front lines, conveying what she said about them. She's in the hospital, yet she is concerned about them.
And then also Nina Pham, same thing from that new video we saw of her in the hospital this evening. She is sick with Ebola, about to be transported, but also voicing support for the men and women who are working alongside of her.
DEBORAH BURGER, CO-PRESIDENT, NATIONAL NURSES UNITED: Well, the healthcare workers were actually trying to do the very best they could. Unfortunately, the hospital administration failed them. And that's what we're concerned about. Because the surveys that we've done have clearly indicated that there is a lack of training, a lack of education, and a total lack of being able to practice with the equipment and use the drills and be able to get familiar with the equipment. Because it is not something that we use every day.
And the thing is, is that we're concerned about is that we cannot really depend on, necessarily, a highly skilled team at each facility. Because we know that patients present in many, many different clinical settings. And they don't always go to the emergency room. And they don't always go to -- where the dedicated medical center is that's supposed to take care of them.
Mr. Duncan didn't know that the Emory, and Nebraska University, and Maryland were the centers of excellence. He ended up in Dallas. And those teams in Dallas said that they were clearly ready when several nurses from Dallas told us that was not true.
LEMON: They weren't.
LEMON: Dr. Garza, let's talk about another piece of protocol here as we look at the ambulance, awaiting Nina Pham to get off of the plane. There are reports tonight that, in Spain, that a patient is under observation with a fever, because they rode in an ambulance that had carried Ebola patients. Teresa Romera Ramos (ph), an ambulance that hadn't been decontaminated. If true, what would that mean about how this virus is being transmitted?
DR. ALEXANDER GARZA, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HEALTH AFFAIRS, DHS: Well, I think it depends a lot on the environment of the ambulance. And so clearly, if this patient was transported in the ambulance, had left behind some bodily fluid, that fluid was left on the surface, and a patient came in contact with it, then that could be the mode of transmission right there. You would assume that that -- that that ambulance would have been thoroughly decontaminated before anybody else would have gotten into it, though. So it's a little bit surprising that that did not happen. Again, and we're looking at the pictures here. It usually takes a
little while for them to get everything together and for them to get off the plane. This actually, they arrived fairly quickly. Commercial flight here, just about, what, three and a half hours?
But they did it in a short amount of time. And of course, it's different when you are flying private. You don't have to wait in the cue for, you know, other airplanes in front of you. Obviously, don't have to go through security and all those other things. So this is a much quicker, much quicker process when you're -- when you're flying private here in commercial.
So, you know, Sanjay, unfortunately we're getting some experience, probably more experience than we want with this.
GUPTA: That's fair to say. I mean, you know, just even a few months ago, Don, this was something that I think most Americans did not imagine ever happening at all. And even though we've been talking about the theoretical possibility, it wasn't until Dr. Kent Brantly and then Nancy Writebol came to the hospital here behind me where we started to see some of the images like the ones you're seeing now.
The transfer of patients again. You heard, Don -- I heard, from the beginning when Dr. Frieden would talk about this, that hospitals all across America would be ready, would be ready to take care of patients who might show up with Ebola. Because the isolation of Ebola really wasn't that challenging. And they'd been doing it in rural parts of central and West Africa for a long time. Why would it be so hard at big hospitals here in the United States?
Dallas challenged some of those theories, challenged some of that confidence, Don. And that's part of why you're seeing...
LEMON: Sanjay, we're seeing people in gear coming off the plane. So we're going to -- we're going to slow down a little bit and take our time. And I believe that is Nina Pham.
GUPTA: Looks like she's walking off the plane there, Don.
LEMON: Yes. Very slowly.
GUPTA: Good sign.
LEMON: Good sign that she's walking. Not every patient we've seen has walked. Is that correct?
GUPTA: That's right. That's absolutely right. Remember, Nancy Writebol came in on a stretcher after Kent Brantly had walked. But there you see her there. Pretty, pretty clearly.
LEMON: So in the middle of your screen, nurse Nina Pham arriving from Dallas to Maryland where she will head now to the National Institutes of Health, a facility that they believe is better equipped to handle someone who has contracted Ebola than Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas.
And Sanjay, stand by just one second here. I just want to update our viewers.
You are watching now our breaking --
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
