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Talk Asia
Exploring the Past and Future of Japan's Much Loved Cuisine
Aired October 16, 2014 - 04:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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YOSHIKI TSUJI, PRESIDENT, TSUJI CULINARY INSTITUTE (voice-over): When I eat, I don't talk. I only talk during the meals, during each plate I
pass the biggest perspective that I can give to the genius.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Noodles to sushi, katsu to yakitori, the world of Japanese cuisine can at once seem simple and complex
to the untrained eye. But on closer inspection, there's a deep, almost spiritual appreciation for this fare from all those who create, cook and
eat it.
This month on TALK ASIA, we are in Japan, hungry to learn about the world of fine Japanese cuisine.
TSUJI (voice-over): A great cuisine (ph) is always, always have this philosophical meaning to it. And I am communicating them through the dish.
NEWTON (voice-over): We begin our journey in Osaka, the so-called nation's kitchen at the country's most prestigious cooking school, Tsuji
Culinary Institute, the brainchild of Shizuo Tsuji. It opened in 1960 and is now attended by several thousand students in sister schools across Japan
and France. The former journalist and crime writer also penned the West's first bible on Japanese cooking, still a staple of modern chefs around the
world.
Today, his son, Yoshiki Tsuji has picked up where his father left off, directing the prominent academy. This month on TALK ASIA, Yoshiki Tsuji
opens up about why Japanese food is such a spiritual experience. He takes us on a journey to discover the art of kaiseki, which is one of the
nation's most revered chefs and gives us a glimpse into what the future of Japanese cuisine may look like, thanks to the imagination of one of his
former students.
Yoshiki Tsuji, welcome to TALK ASIA. Thank you so much for being here.
In reading your biography, I'm so fascinated how you went from being an investment banker, you know, one very prestigious profession to another.
You are an esteemed epicurean, I would say. You would think, though, that you would have decided I'm going to go to cooking school. I'm going to
become a chef. I'm going to study it.
You never went down that route.
TSUJI: I'd rather eat than watching people enjoy eat. So I.
Because it was the family business and I knew that I was going to take over the business at some point in my life. It was -- it was very
important for me to learn anything other than cooking.
NEWTON: You know, you run the culinary institute that your father founded more than a half-century ago. And I would say your father did for
Japanese food what Julia Child did for French food in terms of exposing it to the world.
I mean, he was the one that wrote a book about it that everyone so quotes today. It's called "Japanese Cooking: A Simple Art." Some people
in their reviews have called it a philosophical treatise. I mean, they really say that this is an extraordinary book.
Why do you think it has that kind of impact?
TSUJI: It was actually the first time someone wrote in a formal setting and a proper way how to introduce Japanese cooking. And what's
really interesting is that the book is comprised (sic) of more on description rather than how to make Japanese cooking.
NEWTON: Tokyo has more Michelin stars than New York and London combined. There are some countries that don't have any Michelin stars.
Japan has so many.
What sets it apart?
TSUJI: Japanese cuisine keeps on evolving. Japanese people are very good. We have always been good at taking outside sources and adapting into
the Japanese system. And that's why I think when you talk about the numbers of stars in Tokyo and Kyoto, well, Kyoto is comprised (sic) of
Japanese restaurants of Michelin size.
But when it comes to Tokyo, you know, just talking about Japanese food, you're talking about French, Chinese and Italian, too. And this just
a -- strong characteristics of Japanese craftsmanship that we are very good at taking outside sources and adapting to our own.
NEWTON: You spent a lot of time in the West. Do you feel that the sanctity of Japanese cuisine has been harmed in some way, almost corrupted
by all of these things that people know or come to know what they think is Japanese cuisine?
TSUJI: No, no, no. I think a lot of people -- I hated the word personally sushi police. Every cuisine must encounter a blow, I guess, of
influences, each should evolve in its own way, wherever the countries are.
NEWTON: So wacky sushi combinations in L.A., London, Sydney, they do not bother you?
TSUJI: No, no, because it's the consumers who decide whether the food should last there and how popular that food should be. When it comes to
international definition of it, yes, we do need to keep the authenticity. But definition has nothing to do with the business side of things.
NEWTON: The ingredients in Japanese cuisine, you can't help but marvel at them, just the variety, the quality.
How important are the -- ?
TSUJI: How much time do I have to explain?
(LAUGHTER)
NEWTON: That's an excellent answer, actually. You said so much just in that one answer. They're important.
TSUJI: Fourteen percent or 15 percent of the fish species can be found in Japan. And it doesn't seem like a lot. But when you think about
0.28 percent of the entire land area in a global land area to find 14 percent to 15 percent of the fish species around the whole world, it's a
huge amount. And that itself creates an incredible diversity of different kinds of varieties of fish.
So rice is a staple, vegetable and the diversity of fish, different varieties of fish forms Japanese cuisine.
NEWTON: Here's a question which I'm sure you're going to find very difficult to answer.
What do you eat at home for comfort, for interest?
What is going on in your house with food?
TSUJI: Joy is a different thing. You drink. You complain. You tell a lot of people behind -- you tell a lot of people behind their back with
my friends and I --
NEWTON: State politics --
TSUJI: -- politics -- no, I don't --
(LAUGHTER)
TSUJI: -- but getting drunk and having fun.
But when I eat professionally, I like to communicate with people who cooked that dish.
There is always -- a great cuisine is always, always have this philosophical meaning to it. Those dishes are -- have such depth and there
is always such a huge amount to convey by the chef. And I am communicating them through the dish, is what I try to do every single time I eat. And
I've been doing that for the last 30 years.
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NEWTON (voice-over): What do you think your grandfather would say if he was sitting at this table to one of your meals today?
KUNIO TOKUOKA, PROPRIETOR, KITCHO (voice-over): I'm not quite there yet.
NEWTON: Good try. Back to the kitchen.
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TSUJI (voice-over): We're actually on the west mountainside of -- from the city of Kyoto. And the restaurant we're going to is called
Kitcho, Arashiyama Kitcho, which is -- has been a three-star Michelin since they actually -- the first food came out in Kasa (ph) area. And the
proprietor of the restaurant is called Mr. Kunio Tokuoka. And he's actually a third generation of this grand maison of Japanese cuisine.
I think the restaurant opened in the early 1930s and he moved from -- he was born in Osaka and he had created an incredible grand maison in Osaka
and after he became successful, he acquired this land here in Arashiyama and third generation, Mr. Tokuoka Kunio has succeeded. It took him a long
time to succeed. But he was careful in preserving the tradition of Kitcho cuisine.
NEWTON (voice-over): Is it fair to say that this one of the top restaurants?
TSUJI (voice-over): Oh, certainly. It's -- when you say kaiseki, it can be defined as anything. But you have so many different styles of
kaiseki. And (INAUDIBLE). We'll try them all. He represents one of the top esthetic styles, formality of kaiseki that he's been concerning keeping
tradition for many, many years from his grandfather.
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NEWTON: Welcome to TALK ASIA. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you for inviting us to this lovely room. It is just stunning,
really.
TOKUOKA (through translator): I'm deeply honored. Thank you.
NEWTON: You are a third generation proprietor of this incredible restaurant.
Why did you decide to go into this business?
TOKUOKA (through translator): Basically I didn't want this kind of job. And I was so troubled with my life that I went to monastery for a
time and became a monk. There I met an old priest, my teacher, who helped me make my decision, which eventually led me down this path.
So that time I started. I have always liked cooking. It's only that I loved music a little bit more.
NEWTON: Kaiseki, it is a very formal, traditional, almost artistic, revered Japanese ceremony.
How would you describe the different elements of the formal meal?
TOKUOKA (through translator): Firstly, the chef's heart on a plate. We hope the customer enjoys the meal by giving everything we can offer in
every small portion. There's a meaning behind the second course coming after the first one and before the third one.
Each dish is got out by portion, taste and scent and prepared in a way a customer would be entertained by providing many little surprises.
NEWTON (voice-over): So this is course number one. Huh?
TSUJI (voice-over): It's usually served in a second.
NEWTON (voice-over): So this normally the second thing that you'd be.?
TSUJI (voice-over): Hold it with your hands.
NEWTON (voice-over): OK. Oh, I see. It's a good thing -- let me try that again. OK. So you hold it with your hands.
TSUJI (voice-over): With the hand. Slowly lift it up. Feel the aroma.
NEWTON (voice-over): And then you release the aroma.
TSUJI (voice-over): Yes. And then you put your hands.
NEWTON (voice-over): Very nice.
TSUJI (voice-over): And then you smell. Take a very small sip.
NEWTON (voice-over): This would come where in the traditional kaiseki meal? And it was --
TSUJI (voice-over): Sushi usually comes second. And this is where you show a chef's skill of how good they are.
NEWTON (voice-over): Ah, this is the epitome of a chef's skill -- really?
TSUJI (voice-over): This is a typical soup dish that would be served at this time of the year in September, where you're reminiscent of the
himono (ph) fish that is going to disappear in about two weeks from now.
TOKUOKA (through translator): Well, there are still some. But the peak, the best season for having it will pass soon.
TSUJI (voice-over): It's already passed. It's past season --
NEWTON (voice-over): Past the peak already.
TSUJI (voice-over): -- for himono (ph) fish. And then you're welcoming the new seasons of the nansake (ph), which is just beginning.
NEWTON (voice-over): In Kyoto, your restaurants are now more than 80 years old. It's been said that the food here can practically move people
to tears, the taste and the sensation is an emotional thing.
TOKUOKA (through translator): I want to create a special environment, where time moves slower. We live in a Formula 1 like speedy life. We
focus on one point and rush towards that goal. Here, I want us to get out of the car and walk and enjoy the slowness. I want them to be able to
notice the person next to them, recall past memories and think about the future. I hope after that experience, people would realize the craziness.
Dopamine releases when customers see the gap between this space and their life and that would perhaps trigger tears in their eyes.
TSUJI: When you go to his restaurant -- I've been here so many times since I was -- since my childhood -- Japanese cuisine not only is just his
restaurant alone, but with every Japanese restaurant, it's -- you are -- you're awakened with five senses. Everything is connecting, even going --
that's an entrance. For him, it's an opening of a film. He's a producer, he's a director. He's also an editor, all at the same time.
NEWTON: What do you think your grandfather would say if he was sitting at this table to one of your meals today?
TOKUOKA (voice-over): I'm not quite there yet.
NEWTON: Good try. Back to the kitchen.
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NEWTON (voice-over): What is this dish?
What does it represent?
TOKUOKA (through translator): The deliciousness in this dish is not only the taste. There are many different types of tastes, like sweetness,
bitterness and sourness. A person can smell 320 different things. And we feel and distinguish the texture, too.
During the courses there are many different dishes that are designed to encourage the diner to enjoy particular smells, tastes and so on. But
this dish is especially designed to be visual.
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TSUJI (voice-over): We'd like to introduce you to a Japanese cuisine chef that visually looking not too people surprised. But palate wise,
philosophy wise, it's -- there's a huge change in it. And you'll be surprised some of the dishes we will be tasting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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NEWTON (voice-over): Understand we're back here in Osaka. We had such a fabulous introduction to traditional Japanese dining. You're taking
us on a journey. So now we're going to do more modern Japanese cuisine.
TSUJI (voice-over): We'd like to introduce you to a Japanese cuisine chef that visually looking not too people surprised. But palate wise,
philosophy wise, it's -- there's a huge change in it. And you'll be surprised some of the dishes we will be tasting.
His name is Mr. Kenji Mitsuda. The restaurant is called Sakurae Toyonaka.
NEWTON (voice-over): And he was one of your students.
TSUJI (voice-over): Yes, 29 graduates, (INAUDIBLE). He graduated about 25 years ago.
NEWTON (voice-over): And not too modestly, Michelin starred, yes?
TSUJI (voice-over): Well, as you can see in this residential area, it's hard to find a good Michelin star (INAUDIBLE).
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NEWTON (voice-over): Kenji Mitsuda, thank you so much. Welcome to TALK ASIA. We're so pleased to be here and get your take really on modern
Japanese cuisine.
You are a former student of Tsuji-san here in his esteemed culinary institute. What inspired you to be a chef but also specifically to try and
master Japanese cuisine?
KENJI MITSUDA, OWNER AND CHEF, SAKURAE TOYONAKA (through translator): Growing up, my mother was not a great chef. So I began cooking what I feel
is tasty for myself. And from this experience, I wanted to start cooking for other people.
As I studied at Tsuji Cooking Academy, I learned the joy of Japanese cuisine. And though I never intended to become a chef or a head chef back
then, my wish to serve my food to other people has led me to this path that I'm on.
NEWTON: We're going to put you on the spot a little bit here and I'm going to ask you at Tsuji-san's culinary institute, what did you learn that
you continue to use in your career?
MITSUDA (through translator): One thing is to make best use of the produce. Japanese cuisine needs care when preparing dishes and this
process matches because this will affect the outcome.
NEWTON: You serve some of the most exquisite, modern Japanese food.
What is your philosophy that you take to this restaurant but also to your menus, your dishes?
MITSUDA (through translator): There are a few things. One is to use innovative technique that has not been used in Japanese cuisine before,
such as making use of scientific knowledge and using different temperatures in cooking for enhancing texture and flavor, for example, to bring out the
best in the produce.
Another thing is since we live in a global society, I like to make use of produce from different parts of the world and pick out what works for
Japanese cuisine.
NEWTON: What is he preparing now? The yellow stuff looks interesting. Not sure if it's egg yolk or fruit.
TSUJI: I believe he's making a confit of foie gras with a sauce of what we call shiromiso, which is an egg yolk, sake, a little bit of dashi
and white miso mixed. But he added a mango juice in it.
NEWTON: Mango juice?
TSUJI: Yes, within the shiromiso, which is the vinaigrette, white miso sauce.
NEWTON: What was your inspiration behind this dish?
Why have you made it this way?
MITSUDA (through translator): You don't use fruit too often in Japanese cuisine. So I wanted to try using a mango in some miso with foie
gras, which works well together, I think, also to add in the texture. I've added some chicken cartilage as well.
NEWTON: And the foam? That's kind of your creation.
MITSUDA (through translator): Yes, it's my creation. It's foam with the scent of ginger.
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TSUJI (voice-over): Ready to try?
NEWTON (voice-over): Absolutely. What do you think? Shall we try it?
Mmm. Wow, the foam's lovely on that.
TSUJI (voice-over): Yes, what's really interesting is it's not our definition of what we think of what Japanese food should be. But it's --
we're more curious about you trying it and see how Japanese it can be. That's -- that kind of decides whether a certain dish is Japanese or not.
NEWTON (voice-over): So you approve?
TSUJI (voice-over): Well, he's my graduate.
(LAUGHTER)
NEWTON (voice-over): What else are you going to say?
So can you just explain what you're putting together there as you're doing it?
MITSUDA (through translator): I'm making warm sushi right now. Maybe it's something you've never tried before.
NEWTON (voice-over): As far as you're concerned, what makes the perfect Japanese meal, not to be applied to other meals, but what's the
perfect Japanese meal?
TSUJI: I'd say most unpretentious yet very philosophical meaning to it and have the chef's characteristics within the dishes.
NEWTON: Conveys the chef's personality in the --
TSUJI: That conveys the chef's personality.
NEWTON: And this is honestly quite a departure for sushi, serving it warm like that.
TSUJI: Usually it makes sushi and warm it up, whereas this has been cooked from the start as the sushi.
NEWTON: Oh, my goodness. Wow, that is quite a presentation.
TSUJI: It's a nice picnic dish.
NEWTON: Just a casual picnic dish. Lovely, though. Very hearty. It would seem to be the very definition of a Japanese comfort food.
Lovely, lovely dish.
I mean, I can certainly see why you have -- why you're a Michelin starred chef.
In terms of being a Michelin starred chef, I mean, is that important to you?
Was it really the pinnacle or was it not so important?
MITSUDA (through translator): If I focused solely on Michelin stars, I may limit myself from cooking what's really possible. It is important
for me to be able to continue creating new and innovative work while sustaining my staff. And that would make me truly happy.
NEWTON: If talking about Japanese cuisine, do you think it will evolve eventually into something that is completely different from
traditional Japanese?
TSUJI: Good question.
MITSUDA (through translator): Japanese people have a particular preference in taste and have a culture, which is tea ceremonies. Style of
the way of cooking will not have to change. However, what's inside may change and evolve.
TSUJI: We've had 1,000 years of craftsmanship in our country to adapt into our own system. It's very unlikely that it's going to drastically
change. There's always slow change, but it's not going to be a drastic change. It's not just that the domestic debate, it's an international --
it's a global debate as to how what the Japanese cuisine should go forwards. So these three things are crucial: education, environmental
issues and messaging of transmitted globally. And that debate will decide which direction Japanese cuisine will go in the future.
NEWTON: Mitsuda-san, thank you.
Thank you so much for being on TALK ASIA and for giving us this incredible meal. Thank you.
Tsuji-san, thank you. You've been an impeccable ambassador. I cannot thank you enough. You've been so gracious and so (INAUDIBLE).
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