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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Ron Klain Chosen as Ebola Czar; Ebola in U.S.; Can New Czar Help in Ebola Fight?

Aired October 17, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

At this very moment, the Texas governor, Rick Perry, is set to hold a news conference to update the latest response to the cases of Ebola that have come out of Dallas. In fact, he cut short a European trip to return to Texas to deal with this situation. Governor Perry has also been in touch with the White House and other officials in Washington, D.C., and has appointed a state Ebola task force. What's critical is all of this coming at the same time that the president has actually appointed an Ebola czar. And the president is going to be doing that and probably announcing it pretty darn soon. All of this in response to this deadly disease.

Our sources are telling CNN's Jake Tapper that it is set to be Ron Klain, a former chief of staff to Vice President's Joe Biden and Al Gore. A picture there for you. Get used to seeing that face. The thought is, this will be the public face of the government response to what's going on right now with Ebola. Mr. Klain is an attorney and a Democratic Party insider who now serves as president of the company that handled business and philanthropic interests for former AOL Chairman Steve Case.

Want to talk a little bit about this as wee, of course, wait for the Texas governor's live news conference, which we will break into at any moment. But joining me right now to talk about the latest developments and, of course, this brand-new announcement is Joe Johns.

In fact, you know what, Joe Johns, right before I speak with you, I'm going to go to President Obama, who's speaking on this topic right now.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And that includes the challenge that brings me here today, protecting Americans from financial fraud and identity theft. As president, I believe that America is stronger when our middle class can count on things, like affordable health insurance and Medicare and Social Security, where there are rules to protect our kids from dirty air or dirty water, rules to protect consumers from being taken advantage of. And I know you agree, those of you at CFPB (ph), because that's your mission. And that's why part of the financial reform that we passed in the wake of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression was the creation of this agency, to make sure that we are looking at every aspect of the financial system and ensuring that the American people have the basic protections that they should be able to count on. You have one mission. You are a watch dog for consumers, to make sure

that the American people have somebody who's got their backs. And because of the good work of many of the people here today, Americans have saved millions because they've been protected from predatory mortgage practices. You've protected folks from deceptive credit card practices. You've set up "Know Before You Owe" (ph) to help college be a little more affordable for young people and to make sure that they know the kind of debt that they're accruing. You've simplified mortgage forms so homeowners don't get tricked in the final print.

But all this work, you know, taken together, the reason it's important is because it's not an abstraction. It saves people money and time and heartache. And before you, Americans who had gotten taken advantage of often had no way of achieving some sort of compensation.

BANFIELD: And as the president has this news conference, it is not what we're expecting right away, and that is the announcement of Ron Klain as the Ebola czar, which is one of the - these issues that has been sort of gripping the nation right now. Who is going to lead this crisis? Who is going to be the face and the task master of dealing with this crisis? And there you have it. There are the specs, the former chief of staff for Vice Presidents Biden and Al Gore.

I want to bring back in Joe Johns, our senior Washington correspondent, to give me a bit of a rundown on just exactly who Ron Klain is and why this person particularly was chosen. Go ahead, John -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think he is very well-known around town by the super lawyers who say he's an incredible crisis manager. In fact, you can probably rank him among some of Washington's super lawyers right now.

As you said, he's working for Case Holdings and that's also Revolution LLC and - making a lot of money after his days as a senior adviser for the president, President Obama, as well as chief of staff for two vice presidents. That would be Biden and Gore. But it's pretty clear that he's being brought on because of his ability to juggle high-pressure situations. Among the things he's done, he oversaw the implementation of the Recovery Act. He was there as legal counsel for Al Gore during Bush versus Gore. A lot of times when government and some political interests have really needed a person with an ability to juggle a lot of different pieces and also do the messaging.

BANFIELD: Joe.

JOHNS: Yes.

BANFIELD: Joe, I need to interrupt you, and I apologize, only to skip down from your state and where you are in Washington, D.C., down to Dallas. Actually, we're in Austin, Texas, with the governor of Texas, Rick Perry. Let's listen in on his announcement.

GOV. RICK PERRY, TEXAS: State medical operations center within our department of state health services was fully activated in early October with members of that center's rapid assessment team and command assistance team deploying the Dallas to assist the emergency operations unit there.

DHS officials have been in constant contact with the Centers for Disease Control and coordinated with federal and local health officials to locate and begin monitoring those that were exposed to Mr. Duncan. The DHSH has also transported and tested samples. They've assisted in the transport of patients and continue to consult with providers and facilities on diagnosing and screening for Ebola. The Texas Commission on Environmental Quality has been actively involved in the handling and disposing of the waste that's been generated by all three patients, including the cleaning and decontamination of those residence.

Yesterday, I spoke with President Obama. Among the matters, I asked him, as a stop gap measure to fast track CDC acknowledgement of the next level facilities that are better prepared to deal with diseases like Ebola. This will let people know that there will be a place to go if they get sick in Texas. Over the past two days, two additional positive tests, both involving caregivers to Mr. Duncan, reminded us just how dangerous this virus truly is. Both women are currently being treated at other facilities around the country and they each have certainly our thoughts and our prayers, as do their family.

Throughout this process, caregivers across north Texas have demonstrated courage and determination in treating Mr. Duncan. And it's certainly important that we remember their efforts in the face of this great adversity.

We must admit, along the way we have seen ample opportunity for improvement, from the CDC all the way to the hospital. And it's indefensible that one of Mr. Duncan's nurses was allowed to fly from Ohio to Dallas after she said that she had a low grade fever. DSHS has, in fact, been asked by the CDC to monitor the 79 people in Texas who were on that plane with her. The eight individuals that were in closest proximity to her, within three feet, are under active monitoring with two temperature checks a day, including once face-to- face with our health care workers. The others are being monitored by phone.

And that case brings up a good point. Air travel is, in fact, how this disease crosses borders and it's certainly how it got to Texas in the first place. Based on recent and ongoing developments, I believe it is the right policy to ban air travel from countries that have been hit hardest by the Ebola outbreak. Certainly there should be an exception for aid workers so that they continue their important work fighting this disease.

Again, we have seen, on many occasions, that things need to be improved in this process. Considering this was the first time that Ebola has been diagnosed on American shores, it's perhaps understandable that mistakes were made, but it's also unacceptable. And to that end, 11 days ago I issued an executive order creating the Texas Task Force on Infectious Disease Preparedness and Response.

Today they submitted a preliminary group of recommendations for our future preparedness. They include establishing Ebola treatment centers in Texas with state-of-the-art equipment and specially trained health care workers to provide care to patients when that disease is most contagious. Bringing patients to these centers would be the responsibility of a specialized transport team. Also, specifically and specially trained with the latest equipment to safely care for those afflicted. They also recommend expanded training for health care workers in Texas. And they'll be conducting hearings to determine the scope and nature of that training.

They're also calling on the legislature to expand the ability of the DSHS chief to impose enforceable control orders, making it more difficult for people at high risk of infection to ignore directives and for them to limit their exposure to the public, or them to go out into the general public. Also calling for more testing labs in addition to the lab that we already have here in Austin. Texas is only one of 16 states that are authorized to conduct Ebola testing, but having additional facilities in different regions of the state will cut down on the time it takes to diagnose a patient.

The important thing for everyone in Texas to remember is that the odds of a specific person contracting Ebola are still exceptionally remote. Many of the steps that we're taking and many of the steps that we have taken have been taken out of an abundance of caution. Ebola is a dangerous, persistent foe but the threat to the general public remains negligible. And to give you some more details of our findings thus far, I'm going to ask our task force director, Dr. Brett Jwa (ph), to come to the podium.

Doctor.

BANFIELD: Texas Governor Rick Perry giving a state of the union, essentially, on the Texas response and also making certain comments that I think most people would have expected him to have made, that the mistakes that were made in Dallas and also with the CDC were perhaps understandable, but somehow unacceptable. I'm not sure about the understandability of some of the mistakes made by the CDC in allowing a woman who treated someone who died from Ebola to get on an airplane. I think there will be a lot parsed into what the governor has said. And also talking about setting up infectious disease centers and a Texas Task Force on Infectious Disease Response and Preparedness.

I want to bring in three people who know a whole lot about what's transpiring now and what may be about to transpire as well with the expected announcement of an Ebola czar coming from President Obama any moment now.

Jeffrey Toobin and Paul Callan are with me on the set, as well as our medical analyst, Dr. Alexander van Tulleken.

Dr. Zant (ph), I want to start with you, and that is this, the state of where we are in Texas right now, when the Texas governor tries to reassure people in Texas, and now since we're on a national network effectively across the country, the chances of someone actually contracting this deadly disease are extremely rare. It's true. But don't tell that to the three people who have it in Dallas, one who's dead and family members who were affected, and don't tell that to all of the people who are now stuck at home from Cleveland all the way to Dallas and now presumably near a cruise ship as well and who are losing money and who are unable to go to work and who are terrified at this point as to what the answers to their questions are.

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Ebola problems in America don't look like lots of Americans affected with Ebola. That's not what we're worried about. What we're worried about is things like we've seen over the last couple of days with the markets taking a dive. So, beyond those 70 people who are having immediate, massive effects on their lives, unable to plan weddings, unable to be at their houses, we've also got -- my pension's worth less today, which should be a real concern to everyone. So that's what we're worried about, these kind of reassurances that say you're not going to catch Ebola. I'm not worried about not catching Ebola, I'm worried about my flights taking twice as long, worried about not being able to get to bits (ph) of the world where I need to be. Being worried about extractive (ph) industries in West Africa not being able to supply the resources we need. All of those things are the kind of effects we see from Ebola, not just the medical.

BANFIELD: And, ultimately, isn't this about containment?

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes.

BANFIELD: And containment doesn't just mean some containment. It means containment. And if you're chasing down 800 people who flew on Frontier Airlines' planes because that nurse was onboard one of them that kept in service unknowingly, poor Frontier Airlines and the hit they're taking, I mean this is the issue we're looking at, Paul Callan, when we talk about a now new Ebola czar. What effectively can a new Ebola czar due that the Texas governor and the state autonomy he has isn't already doing, or should be doing?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it's interesting. And I was looking at the history of czars. Probably 150 of these special czars have been appointed by presidents just in the 20th century. It goes back to FDR. Presidents do it for a variety of reasons. One, they want to avoid the congressional approval process. And, of course, President Obama has not been able to get his choice for surgeon general approved and hence he's now appointing his own man in a job that probably will not require approval.

BANFIELD: Reminder.

CALLAN: Yes.

BANFIELD: We don't have a surgeon-general at this hour.

CALLAN: No, we don't. We have an acting surgeon-general.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I just want to point out. The term czar is invented by the news media. They don't --

BANFIELD: Yes.

TOOBIN: They don't call it czar.

BANFIELD: Well, they do now.

TOOBIN: Well -- I don't actually think you will hear Josh Earnest use the term czar.

BANFIELD: I heard the president talk about a czar like --

TOOBIN: Did he really say it?

BANFIELD: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: Well, but the job is simply to coordinate different parts of the federal government. You can't appoint someone to invoke new laws. Only Congress can pass laws. But what a czar, what a coordinator can do is make sure that the Department of Homeland Security is acting in concert with the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Health and Human Services, which are three enormous bureaucracies that sometimes can work in cross-purposes.

The idea behind Ron Klain, or whoever it might be, is to keep everybody on the same page.

BANFIELD: Jeff, you know Ron Klain.

TOOBIN: Yes, I do.

BANFIELD: And I'd love it if you could just weigh in on, A, your background with him and B, what he represents to those who are Washington insiders, those he's going to effectively be helming through this process?

TOOBIN: Right. Well, we were law school classmates a long time ago in the class of 1986 and he went on to clerk at the United States Supreme Court, for Byron White. He worked -- he spent almost his entire career in the federal government with -- he worked for -- Janet Reno in the Justice Department and later for President Clinton and for President Obama.

The most obvious thing to say about Ron Klain is that he's not a doctor. He's not a medical personnel.

BANFIELD: Well, I'm going to talk Dr. Xand (ph) about that.

TOOBIN: He is not -- well, he is --

BANFIELD: But he is -- he is an effective logistician.

TOOBIN: Right. He is someone who knows how Washington works. That's why he's been hired in this job. You know, he's probably best known for leading Al Gore's forces in the recount in Florida. He was played by Kevin Spacey in the HBO movie. But he is someone who is being hired to make Washington work. He is not being hired to look through a microscope.

BANFIELD: OK. So talk to me, Dr. Xand, about that notion that Jeff just brought up. He does not have a medical background. At this point, in his role, does that matter?

VAN TULLEKEN: I don't think so, actually. I mean, if you think that -- if you think of what a terribly good physician and research scientist Tom Frieden is, that hasn't been hugely helpful. And doctors are not trained in management, they're not trained in risk coordination, any of the skills that you might need. So I don't think it's a big problem that he doesn't have a medical background. He can get up to speed on the medicine pretty easily.

The concerns is, there are types of risks to be managed here. There's medical risks to the general public, which is the most important thing, and of course there's also the political risks. We're talking about spending massive quantities of money for things that are very unlikely to happen and we -- it's possible we won't see another Ebola case.

We're talking about large amounts of money being moved from -- between different agencies and loss of power, therefore.

BANFIELD: One of the interesting --

VAN TULLEKEN: And so we don't want him to be trading one for the other.

BANFIELD: And Jeff mentioned that earlier off camera and he said you need someone to run the trains. You don't need someone who knows the engines. You need them to run those trains.

TOOBIN: And that's the only reason he's been hired.

BANFIELD: OK. Just quickly, Paul Callan, I want you to tell me something. You told me off air a little while ago, and I was a bit flummoxed that I didn't know about it already, but there is a very massive health body ready to go, troops, effectively boots on the ground, called the U.S. Public Health Service Corps. Uniformed medical officers and their boss is --

CALLAN: Well, the surgeon-general of the United States.

BANFIELD: The surgeon-general that we don't have.

CALLAN: When the czar thing came up, the Ebola czar thing came up, I started looking into the surgeon-general's office wondering why is it empty? Why is the seat not filled? And yes, they are commissioned -- it's kind of like a military organization. There are 6500 of them. They are presidentially appointed. They're all trained professionals.

BANFIELD: Full time?

CALLAN: Full time. They answer to the surgeon-general who at least in theory is supposed to help coordinate health policy nationwide and is the doctor in charge for the United States. The president is not using the surgeon-general. We haven't seen really one who has been well-known. Probably you've got to go back to Edward Coop when he fought smoking in the United States.

BANFIELD: Last quick comment.

TOOBIN: Have you ever seen one of these people in their uniforms? I never have.

BANFIELD: I never have.

TOOBIN: I mean, maybe that makes me ignorant but I --

BANFIELD: It's how I felt when Paul enlightened me to the service corps. I had no idea that we have 6500 people --

CALLAN: Yes, they wore an admiral's -- the surgeon-general actually wears sort of an admiral out there.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CALLAN: And you've seen it's a full Navy attire. But they're commissioned officers. Yes.

BANFIELD: I'm just a little astounded that some of those 6500 people didn't arrive in Dallas, at the Presbyterian Hospital to perhaps coordinate and train on the -- you know, on first hearing that we have an Ebola case.

CALLAN: Well, they could be the boots on the ground.

BANFIELD: They could be the boots on the ground.

CALLAN: I mean, if you want to change screening at the airports, send them out to the airports.

BANFIELD: Yes.

CALLAN: Let them bring out whatever the message of the CDC is.

BANFIELD: I'm trafficking a lot --

CALLAN: You've got people available to do that right now.

BANFIELD: I'm trafficking a lot of live events. I'm still going to cut that conservation short for a moment but Jeff Toobin, Paul Callan, Dr. Xand, stick around, if you would.

We've got two sick nurses from Dallas right now being treated in different biocontainment units hundreds of miles apart. So those two women on your screen, what is their survivability chance? We're going to update everything about these two and their conditions after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: High on the list of Ebola mysteries this hour, just how sick was Amber Vinson when she decided to get on an airplane and fly, and when was she sick?

Miss Vinson is the second nurse in the Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital to contract Ebola from the Liberian patient who died of the virus last week. Last Friday, two days after Thomas Eric Duncan passed away, Miss Vinson flew from Dallas to Cleveland to pick out dresses for her wedding. She flew back to Dallas on Monday with a very slight fever and she went into the hospital on Tuesday.

That in itself is alarming. But now officials say that she actually may have felt ill days before that. Before she got on that first flight. So what does that mean? It means that now Frontier Airlines is notifying as many as 800 passengers who shared either of those two flights, those airplanes that Miss Vinson was on or the five flights after those before the plane was taken out of service and disinfected.

Eight hundred contacts they need to reach.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen joins me live now from Dallas.

So, Elizabeth, give me an update, if you would, please, about Amber's uncle and what he's telling CNN about when she felt certain symptoms or were they symptom-like and how bad they were.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So a federal official tells me that she was feeling sick while she was in Cleveland. However, Amber's uncle says, no, she wasn't feeling sick. So, you know, the fact that they now want to monitor patients who were on her outbound flight on her Dallas to Cleveland flight, tells you that they are concerned about where -- about her -- about how she was feeling on her way to Cleveland as well as in Cleveland.

Now we did hear from the -- from the health officials out in Ohio that the contact tracing has started. It seems to be going well. Let's take a listen.

BANFIELD: Elizabeth, I'm not sure if we have that. I'm not sure if we have. We don't.

COHEN: I'm sorry.

BANFIELD: Unfortunately -- no, I'm so sorry.

COHEN: I'm sorry.

BANFIELD: But maybe just give us a summary of what you found out.

COHEN: Sure. So what they said is that they are tracking 12 contacts in Ohio and that they are all doing well so far. There are no -- nobody is showing any symptoms and they said that everyone has been cooperative. Now that cooperative part is important because people need to be where they are supposed to be when a health official comes to visit them. They need to have their temperature taken. So, you know, contact tracing involves work from health officials and cooperation from the people being traced.

BANFIELD: And it's expensive and it's scary for those people who are contacted with some really alarming news.

Elizabeth Cohen, live for us in Dallas, doing an amazing job. Thank you for that.

COHEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: The first Dallas nurse, the first Dallas nurse to catch Ebola, the first case of Ebola transmission inside the borders of the United States, well, she's now in the hands of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland.

Doctors there say Nina Pham is in fair condition and that they fully expect her to walk out virus-free. But of course, they cannot say when that's going to happen. Miss Pham walked off the airplane from Dallas late last night. Earlier she had shared an emotional moment with caregivers who are also her colleagues at Texas Presbyterian.

You might need to read the captions on your screen to understand what's going on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. GARY WEINSTEIN, NIH: Thanks for being part of the voluntary team to take care of our first patient.

NINA PHAM, NURSE INFECTED WITH EBOLA: Yes.

WEINSTEIN: It means a lot. This has been a huge effort by all of you guys.

PHAM: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't cry. Don't cry.

WEINSTEIN: Yes. We're really proud of you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

WEINSTEIN: Hi.

PHAM: Come to Maryland, everybody.

WEINSTEIN: Party, party in Maryland?

PHAM: Party in Maryland.

WEINSTEIN: OK.

PHAM: OK.

WEINSTEIN: Do you need anything?

PHAM: I don't think so.

WEINSTEIN: OK. There's no crying. Well, happy tears are OK.

PHAM: Yes.

WEINSTEIN: Otherwise no tears. No crying. It's not allowed. (CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

PHAM: I love you, guys,

WEINSTEIN: We love you, Nina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Of course, the last thing anyone wants to hear is bad news when it comes to the condition of any of these nurses.

Athena Jones joining me live now from Bethesda.

So wrap up what you're finding out from your location.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ashleigh. Well, doctors say that Pham is very fatigued after making the journey from Dallas late last night but they say she's in fair condition, she's stable, she's resting comfortably. They said that she's in good spirits, able to sit up and interact with the hospital staff.

They're also, I should tell you about, the staff of highly trained, highly specialized doctors and nurses who are caring for her. We're talking about teams who are working in 12-hour shifts. Teams of about four or five nurses who were working in 12-hour shifts. And anytime a nurse has to go into the room where Miss Pham is being isolated, they have to go in in pairs. That's being done out of an abundance of caution.

It's called the buddy system. They want to make sure that one nurse is looking out for the other, making sure that there are no breaches in protocol. No skin exposed. To make sure that these nurses are of course protected from this virus.

I can tell you that Miss Pham's mother and sister are in the area to offer their support for her. And even though they won't give us specific prognosis, here is what Dr. Anthony Fauci said about Miss Pham's prospects for improving.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: When you say recoverable in the sense of recovery? Absolutely. We fully intend to have this patient walk out of this hospital. And we'll do everything we possibly can to make that happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: And now we -- we know Miss Pham has received a transfusion of blood from Dr. Kent Brantly, he was the Ebola patient who recovered. This could certainly have an effect, Dr. Fauci said, but it's unclear exactly whether it will help and they are open to other experimental treatments. Everything is on the table -- Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Athena Jones reporting live for us, thank you.

Also want to get you updated on something else, just to show you how far-reaching the concerns are about the Ebola case in Dallas. Right now there is a cruise ship in Belize and it is not being allowed to dock. That's because one of the passengers on board that ship is a lab technician who works at the Dallas hospital where an Ebola patient died who actually handled samples.

Details on that coming up.