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Forensic Tests Show Michael Brown's Blood Inside Ferguson Officer's Patrol Car; Ebola Fears Are Far-Reaching; Violence Continues Between ISIS Militants And Kurdish Fighters In Syria; Ebola Concerns Over Contact Between Animals And Humans May Be Justified

Aired October 18, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto in New York.

And we begin in Ferguson, Missouri. And a new development in the case that triggered weeks of violence and protests there. "The New York Times" reporting today that forensic tests found Michael Brown's blood inside the patrol car of the officer who shot him on August 9th. In fact, for the first time we're hearing what officer Darren Wilson said about what happened inside the car on that day. Minutes later outside the unit, Wilson killed Brown who had no weapon.

We want to turn now to CNN's Ted Rowlands. He is in Ferguson, Missouri.

Ted, these new details, they seem to back up what officer Wilson has said, the reasons for him fearing for his life.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely, Jim. And it's a much different narrative than we've heard from other eyewitnesses saying that Mike Brown was basically held by officer Wilson.

This version of events, and this comes from "The New York Times," it came from a federal source with knowledge of the investigation and specifically knowledge of what officer Wilson told the grand jury in September during a four-hour deposition.

Basically saying that Wilson told this grand jury that he was pinned in his own car by Mike Brown and that there was a struggle for his gun, that Mike Brown reached into the car. Specifically, the source told "The New York Times" that officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck.

And this source also told "The New York Times" that the FBI analysts found blood in the car on Wilson's gun, the interior door panel of the car and on Wilson's uniform. It is a much different story than what we have heard from eyewitnesses that saw the aftermath specifically of what happened here.

And the bottom line here, Jim, is this adds that other side to the story, specifically what Darren Wilson is saying happened to this grand jury. We should point out that CNN has reached out to sources but has not been able to confirm these reports at this time. But very, very interesting detail for the first time we're hearing from this "New York times" article.

SCIUTTO: No question, Ted. What's interesting here, it's not just that account that we're hearing from Wilson but forensic evidence that supports in some way the account in that there was evidence of something happening inside that police car, the blood on the officer's uniform, forensic evidence that the weapon was fired twice inside that car.

Now, that still leaves open the question, of course, as to what led to the struggle inside the car because other witnesses have said that the policeman, in effect, pulled Michael Brown in. The policeman claiming here that Michael Brown took a shot at him inside the car. That's the essential difference there.

ROWLANDS: Yes. Dorian Johnson, that young man that was walking with Mike Brown tells a much different story. He said that officer Wilson pulled back in his SWAT car, came so close to them and when Wilson tried to open the door, it hit Mike Brown and he bounced back. And that's how, Wilson, according to Johnson, was trapped, if you will, inside his car. He then says that officer Wilson grabbed Mike Brown. Mike Brown broke away, tried to flee and that Wilson got out of his car, chased him down and shot him in cold blood.

Now, the biggest frustration here on the ground here in Ferguson, especially after this article, is the process. People here are frustrated that this is a grand jury and that the St. Louis county prosecutors didn't go through a preliminary hearing because all of this would have been out in the open. People could judge it for themselves. But being a secret grand jury has just created a lot of tension here. And people just don't trust the police, and frankly, the process.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And as it turns out, not so secret either because someone's clearly leaking details from inside what should be a secret proceeding.

Thanks very much to Ted Rowlands. He is in Ferguson, Missouri.

I want to bring in now our experts to talk about what these new details could mean in this case. Joining now to CNN legal analyst Paul Callan and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

Paul first, looking at this, I mean, you still, at the end of the day, have two very differing accounts here. You have evidence that puts both of them in the car, right? The gun going off there. You've got explosive -- gunshot residue as well as Michael Brown's blood on the police officer's uniform. So you know he was in there somehow. The only question is, was he dragged in, or did he take a lunge at the officer? Do these new details, in your view, move the dial in the in either direction towards officer Wilson's account or other witnesses' account?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I have to say, it moves the dial slightly toward Wilson's account. And I say that because there are no surprises here. We both men -- all of the witnesses indicated there was a struggle. The gun went off. So it's not surprising that there would be blood on the gun. There's not surprising that there would be gun on Wilson -- there be blood on Wilson and blood on Mr. Brown as well.

But here's what's different. There are scratches on the officer's face. And that's starting to build up the idea that Brown was the assailant, that he was resisting arrest and that the officer was pursuing him in good faith. When they look at part two, which is the critical part, that's the part where they're going to decide whether to indict or not. And was the suspect surrendering, or was he attacking? And that we don't know what the testimony is.

SCIUTTO: And thus, here's a question for you. Because does what happened in the car -- let's say that, in fact, it was Michael Brown who was the aggressor inside the car? Once you remove yourself from that period and you get to the point where Brown's outside the car several feet away -- does that -- does a jury separate those two? Do they have to?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You have to separate the two. And here's why, just partway slightly with what Paul Callan said, although what he said is absolutely on point and imperative to this.

Now, what happens, Jim, is that there are two separate occurrences here. now, clearly it matters. What happened at that car? Was there a struggle? How did the struggle ensue? Who was the aggressor? Why did officer Wilson take out his firearm? Why did he discharge the firearm? All relevant and critical questions, Jim.

However, the crux of the matter is the last thing that Paul Callan suggested, and that is what happened outside? In the event that there was a struggle and there was a discharge of a weapon inside, that explains one part. But now we get to the critical issue. The focus needs to be at the time that the fatal shots were fired, two questions.

CALLAN: Was he a threat at that?

JACKSON: Was he a threat? Was officer Wilson in imminent fear of his life? That's question number one. Number two, was the force that he used proportionate to the threat that was posed? And that's going to be the issue irrespective of what occurred inside that vehicle.

SCIUTTO: Legally it doesn't matter. So legally it doesn't matter what happened in the car?

CALLAN: Let's talk for one minute about how human beings look at these things.

SCIUTTO: That was going to be my question. As a juror, are you influenced by that?

CALLAN: As opposed to the law. And I think I have to agree with Joey Jackson completely on the law. But here's why the dial moves for officer Wilson. If the grand jurors are looking at this and they're saying you know something? This officer was attacked. He was attacked by somebody who tried to take his gun, who maybe was trying to kill him. They're going to give officer Wilson the benefit of the doubt.

SCIUTTO: In their heads --

CALLAN: In a subsequent encounter. Now, they maybe they are not supposed to do that as far as the law goes, but that's how human beings are. And I think they'll cut the officer more slack, and this moves the dial in his direction. It's not over by any means.

SCIUTTO: You know the way juries work as well.

JACKSON: Two things. First of all, any lawyer can spin it in any direction, Jim. That's the way it works. And if you have Paul arguing for the prosecution, obviously, it's a different narrative he'll put on it. If you're arguing for the defense, the other. It is where it comes down to.

In the event that it goes to the issue of state of mind, was he being attacked, officer Wilson? Was he scratched, was he beaten, was he swollen? That's one thing. But now, at the time that he fired the shot, was it revenge? Was he upset? Was he annoyed? Did he do it for that reason? Or did he do it for the legally justifiable reason of being under attack? And that's the issue.

And if you're the prosecutor, then perhaps you spin it and say he was vengeful at that time. He was beaten in the car, so he need to get him. And also what will matter is where was the gunpowder, if any? Was there gunpowder residue found? We know it wasn't found on the body based upon Dr. Baden's autopsy, but was it found on the clothing? Because that will give us a sense of how close or how far officer Wilson was at the time the shots were fired.

SCIUTTO: He's pretty close if you're inside the car.

JACKSON: No. I'm speaking of --

SCIUTTO: Later.

JACKSON: Later, outside when he actually got killed.

CALLAN: The real thing is when he had his hands up like that, was he surrendering, or was he charging the officer getting ready to tackle him? And the officer, I presume, has probably said he was coming at me trying to tackle me. And whereas eyewitnesses are disputing that. And who is believed is going to say who gets indicted in this case?

SCIUTTO: As you both make a point, there's still a lot of questions to be decided.

JACKSON: Always.

SCIUTTO: this is, as you say, this moves the dial perhaps slightly, but not more in people's minds than the letter of the law is.

JACKSON: And I say, Jim, you have to look at the forensic evidence because Darren Wilson, and I'm not casting aspersions on him, but he's an interested witness as a matter of law. He's interested in the outcome of this case. And therefore he has a motive to fabricate. And so ,we have to look, what does the evidence show? Was there gunpowder residue? Was there not? What do the other witnesses show? Was he charging, or was he surrendering saying, I'm giving up? Why are you shooting at me? And so that's critical.

SCIUTTO: A long way to go to get to the heart is. Thanks very much, Joey. Paul, as always. Interesting developments in Ferguson.

Coming up, the doctor who treated the Ebola patients Thomas Eric Duncan and nurses Nina Pham and Amber Vinson is speaking out for the first time. You're going to hear from him right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

The Ebola fears are far-reaching, from a cruise ship off Texas to the airline industry to America's hospitals as well. Two nurses who contracted Ebola while treating Thomas Duncan, Nina Pham and Amber Vinson, are recovering now at hospitals specially equipped to handle Ebola cases.

NBC cameraman Ashuko Mukpo, meanwhile, is improving as well day by day. A carnival cruise ship is steaming back to Galveston, Texas, with a lab supervisor who treated Duncan on board. She's symptom- free, she says, and in good health, but is still in the possible window for those Ebola symptoms to develop.

And a few groups of people are still being closely monitored. Twenty- nine people in Ohio who came into contact with Vinson, the nurse. Some 50 others associated with Texas Health Presbyterian hospital which treated Duncan and 87 people who flew on the plane with the nurse Amber Vinson.

Hundreds of others have been contacted by the airline after flying on planes after Vinson had flown on them. One of the frontier planes Vinson flew on has undergone both a hazmat and a heavy-duty cleaning. A CNN crew was on board today. You're seeing it there now as they demonstrated just how thorough that cleaning is.

All this as the government of Canada plans to ship 800 vials of its experiment to Ebola vaccine to the world health investigation in Geneva beginning with its first shipment on Monday. Now, the Texas doctor who was instrumental in treating three Ebola patients and who appeared in an emotional video with one of them is now speaking out.

Janet St. James of our affiliate WFAA in Dallas has the exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANET ST. JAMES, WFAA REPORTER (voice-over): The voice telling Nina Pham not to cry hours before the 26-year-old Ebola-stricken nurse was to be transferred to Maryland belongs to her doctor, Gary Weinstein.

DR. GARY WEINSTEIN, NINA PHAM'S DOCTOR: I'm just a normal guy. ST. JAMES: But the self-professed ordinary guy, a father and a

fiance, has lived an extraordinary and some might say scary 18 days. As chief of Pulmonology and critical here at Texas Presbyterian hospital, he helped guide treatment for all three Ebola patient -- Amber Vinson, Nina Pham and Thomas Duncan.

People will be worried that I'm sitting here with you. What's your temperature?

WEINSTEIN: Well, I have taken it four times today. The most recent one was 97.2.

ST. JAMES: I was not worried as we sat for an exclusive interview. By the time Dr. Weinstein became involved in the hospital's Ebola crisis, Thomas Duncan was on dialysis, intubated and unconscious. The nation's best experts on Ebola had had helped choose an experimental medication, but it did not work. Did you know he was dying? And that it was imminent?

WEINSTEIN: It was very, very quick. He was critically ill and unstable, and over a period of minutes, he lost his pulse and was dead.

ST. JAMES: Many people have said that Thomas Duncan was not treated as well as he should have been because he was black and uninsured.

WEINSTEIN: I find that remarkably insulting. That's -- I don't know how better to describe that. The team here worked their tails off to try and save his life.

ST. JAMES: Do you think you tried everything you could?

WEINSTEIN: Yes.

ST. JAMES: Do you think he could not be saved?

WEINSTEIN: Yes, he was too sick.

ST. JAMES: And then two days later, nurse Nina Pham showed up with a fever, and what everyone hoped was a cold.

WEINSTEIN: Sunken, felt horrible for her.

ST. JAMES: What was her reaction when she heard?

WEINSTEIN: She was scared. It was scary. She risked her life to care for a patient, and now she's afraid for her life.

ST. JAMES: You couldn't even give her a hug.

WEINSTEIN: Certainly not -- certainly not like you'd want to hug, hug through a couple layers of plastic is probably not as comforting as she needed.

ST. JAMES: Did you do that?

WEINSTEIN: You bet I did.

ST. JAMES: Dr. Weinstein says the entire time he was involved with Nina Pham, Thomas Duncan and Amber Vinson, everyone on the team was wearing hazmat gear from head to toe. They all believed they were fully protected. So how do you think it happened? WEINSTEIN: I think that these two nurses took care of a critically

ill patient at a time when he was not in control of his body fluids and at a time when the recommendations from the CDC that we were following did not include the full respiratory mask. I don't know that. But that's what one person thinks. That's me.

ST. JAMES: The CDC Friday night confirmed to news 8 that changes to the protective equipment required for Ebola treatment are imminent because of what was learned inside Texas health Presbyterian.

For now Dr. Weinstein is worried about his hospital's reputation. His colleagues' damaged practices, and the people who voluntarily put their own lives on the lines.

WEINSTEIN: These nurses, these therapists, they are truly heroes. This has not happened before, and they selflessly gave of themselves to care for these patients. And they shouldn't be shunned.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: A defense of the hospital that treated that first U.S. patient of Ebola. I'm joined now by Dr. Daniel Bausch. He is the head of neurology and emerging infections department for the U.S. naval medical research unit 6 in Lima, Peru. Thanks very much for joining us, doctor.

DANIEL BAUSCH, U.S. NAVAL MEDICAL RESEARCH UNIT 6, LIMA, PERU: You're welcome.

SCIUTTO: So you hear this spirited defense of the Texas Presbyterian hospital, including Dr. Weinstein's charge that they were following what they were told by the CDC, for instance, that they did not -- that the doctors treating the Ebola patients did not have to have their necks covered by her hazmat suits. Do you think he makes a credible defense of how this hospital handled these Ebola cases?

BAUSCH: I don't think it's a matter of defense as much -- this was a very difficult position to be in. This patient showed up. It wasn't a center that was prepared to have a patient with Ebola. A very difficult situation. Training needed to be done very rapidly. Reactions needed to be done quickly. This is not something that is incredibly difficult to do, but most people have some preparation and some training to go after this and do it carefully. I don't think it's so much an issue of what PPE, that is personal protective equipment, was worn, but more about whether the people really had the time to absorb the training and be able to do it safely and clearly in this situation they did not.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. Because I've spoken to CDC officials, NIH officials, Dr. Fauci, the head of NIH infectious diseases department who before we had this first U.S. case, assured me and others, they said, listen, the difference between us and Africa is that our hospital systems are better, better funded, better trained to respond exactly to cases like this.

But in the last couple of weeks, we've seen the holes in those response. And I know the government is rushing to change, to fix, to close those holes now. But doesn't this get under -- doesn't this defeat that argument, saying that our health care system was prepared properly to respond to this, and quickly?

BAUSCH: No, I don't think so. Clearly there were some missteps. And obviously, this is tragic, potentially tragic for the people who were infected, although the two nurses seem to be doing fairly well. I think we've learned some things. This is not an easy disease to treat and to deal with if you don't have that experience. We're trying to change a little bit, the approach, perhaps, now to make sure that we are focusing the care in some of the centers that have time to do the training.

So were there missteps or things that we need to correct? Definitely. But I don't think we're faced with a crisis situation where we need to change everything that we thought we knew. There's something behind this. We understand a lot about this virus. We need to keep on and acting on those principles.

SCIUTTO: Doctor, please stick around because I want to dig deeper on these including the fears surrounding this now in the U.S. Was it complacency, incompetency, that allowed Ebola to spread here in the U.S. We are going to discuss that and other questions right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: If we don't adequately address this current outbreak now, then Ebola has the potential to become a scourge like HIV or polio, that we will end up fighting, all of us, for decades.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That's secretary of state John Kerry warning of what could happen if the world does not get this Ebola outbreak under control and quickly. But from the nurses' lack of protective gear at that Dallas hospital to the CDC approving travel plans for a nurse being monitored for Ebola, some question whether incompetency is what caused the virus to spread so far.

We're joined again by Dr. Daniel Bausch joining us from Lima, Peru. In your work, you work with some of the most deadly diseases around the world. I just wonder if you've been surprised by how the CDC and the U.S. health care system have responded so far to this threat.

BAUSCH: I'm not surprised, which I'm not saying that there haven't been missteps. But I still think that we need to keep the focus -- the major problem here, where the fire is raging is still in West Africa. That's where we need to keep our focus. We need to do better here in the United States and preparing what we're ready for.

We also really need to, what I've seen in the news a lot of doing one thing or another out of, quote, "an abundance of caution." And I think that's confusing people. I think that's clouding really what we know about the science. When we say this disease is not casually spread, for example, and then we close a school, what message does that give? I think that really erodes the confidence that we have. We need to use the science and act on that.

But I think we're more than capable of doing that. I still do not believe we're going to have a large outbreak of Ebola in the United States. And we need to not lose our focus of where the real problem is here still in West Africa.

SCIUTTO: I'm going to share a story, Dr. Bausch. As I was driving into the studio today, I was talking to my father who was planning a trip to Canada next week to visit friends. And he said, you know, we're thinking about canceling because of fears of Ebola. I said that, I'm not a doctor, but I said was what I know about it. Don't cancel your trip to Canada. There's no reason to. And you know, chances of being on a plane next to someone who has the disease is, you know, extremely low. Do you think that the fear in the U.S. has gotten out of whack far ahead of the actual threat?

BAUSCH: I do indeed. I think that the threat to this country is still very small. It's not zero. We know how this is spread. This is spread by blood and bodily fluids, so health care workers, people taking care of a sick person, we know it has to come from West Africa. It's not a disease that's circulating here in the United States.

Even on a plane, a person who's not severely ill is unlikely to spread this disease in my opinion. And so I think your father should go to Canada. I think we should stop worrying about contacts of contacts of contacts of contacts and really make sure we're focusing on the science and where the problem really is.

SCIUTTO: And a big day will be tomorrow because that's 21 days since the people who treated Duncan will have passed that window, that incubation period. We'll have an indication tomorrow if there are further cases in the U.S.

Thank you very much, Dr. Bausch. I appreciate your expertise on this.

BAUSCH: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: And your calm, wise advice.

Another day of violence between ISIS militants and Kurdish fighters in Syria, but now there are new reports that is has taken to the skies. We'll have the latest right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in New York.

There are troubling new allegations today that former Iraqi security forces are now training ISIS militants to fly warplanes. A London- based group says ISIS is using three Syrian warplanes that were captured from a base outside Aleppo in Syria. Plus, the intense efforts by ISIS militants to capture the embattled Syrian city of Kobani is actually helping the U.S.

I'm joined by Chris Dickey, he is author of "securing the city" and he is editor -- foreign editor of "the Daily Beast."

Chris, interesting developments in the last 24 hours, some of them concerning, some of them positive. Kobani, if you look at the latest reports on the ground from Syrian Kurds fighting is, they say that ISIS fighters are now mostly outside of the city after a punishing couple of weeks of air strikes. Is this an early victory in Syria from the U.S.-led air campaign?

CHRIS DICKEY, FOREIGN EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, maybe, except that all the villages around Kobani are still controlled by is, and the question is how far can you push them back? Can you push them back so far and so consistently and so permanently that they'll never move in again?

You know, the world's attention tends to shift, and sometimes the bombing campaign shifts as well. So if we see a lull in the fighting, ISIS pulls back but stays in those villages around Kobani, they could just wait until things calm down and then try and move in very quickly again. They're very, very good tacticians. And I don't think we should feel that they've been defeated yet in that area.

SCIUTTO: Yes, impossible to hold that territory without constant pressure from the air. And I've been told by U.S. military officials a number of times that ISIS is changing its tactics, the way it moves, the way it communicates, et cetera, to avoid that targeting.

But it was interesting because CENTCOM commander general Lloyd Austin, he is the one in charge of the U.S.-led response here. He said that on the positive side, ISIS is actually helping the U.S. by giving them more targets. Have a listen to how he explained this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. LLOYD AUSTIN, CENTCOM COMMANDER: The enemy has made a decision to make Kobani his main effort. And what you've seen him do in the last several days is continue to pour manpower into that effort. It's highly possible that Kobani may fall. But again, I think the things that we have done here in the last several days are encouraging. And we're seeing the Kurds actually fight to regain territory that had been lost previously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So a few things this there, Chris, some good, some bad. But he said because ISIS was focusing so many resources, funneling a lot of fighters towards ISIS to attempt to take it, that that gave more targets to U.S. warplanes and coalition warplanes from the air. I suppose the trouble is, they've got a pretty big pipeline of fighters. They can keep doing that for weeks and months on end. DICKEY: Well, Jim, that's exactly right. And I think it's very

worrisome that we are now saying that Kobani is ISIS' main target. At the same time, we know that ISIS is making a lot of advances in Anbar province, much deeper into Iraq, and we know that they are also making a lot of advances around Aleppo.

ISIS is on the move, and not only around Kobani. If they really are focusing their best troops on Kobani and putting them in exposed positions where the Americans can blow the hell out of them, great. I just am not sure that that's the case. I think that they do have a big pipeline of troops. A lot of people willing to go right on the front line and die. And frankly on the other side, on the Iraqi side, on the free Syrian army side, on the Turkish side, there are not a lot of troops willing to do that.

I think we can thank God that there are some Kurds in the (INAUDIBLE) group, the militias that are fighting Kobani who have been willing to go toe to toe, day after day, week after week against ISIS are just about the only fighters in the region who are willing to do that.

SCIUTTO: That's right, because we certainly haven't seen Iraqi forces doing that. In fact, there's been criticism from U.S. commanders around Anbar that they have stayed in their bases. They're not taking any offensive operations against ISIS. And that's with U.S. and coalition airpower in the skies above them.

DICKEY: It's worse than that, Jim. I mean, there's a huge problem in the Iraqi army with what they call astronaut soldiers. They are soldiers who pay off their officers, basically give their officers part or all of their salary so they never have to go near the front lines. Those officers will tell the government, yes, we're taking 500 men into battle. In fact, they're paying 300 men into battle and collecting the salaries of the 200 who bought them off.

I mean, it's a really lousy situation. And not the kind of thing you want to rely on to go up against zealots like the fighters in ISIS.

SCIUTTO: No question. That's after years and billions of dollars and a lot of U.S. blood training those very Iraqi forces.

Thanks very much to Christopher Dickey joining us tonight from Paris.

Airstrikes are slowing the advance of ISIS in Syria, but it's a very different story in Iraq. Coming up, we're going to introduce you to the soldiers trying to keep ISIS from entering the capital Baghdad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The U.S. may be having some successes pushing back the ISIS onslaught around Kobani in Syria with airstrikes. In Iraq, however, the situation very different, particularly in Anbar province just to the west of the capital. There the fights with militias against ISIS taking place on the streets.

Our own CNN's Ben Wedeman got a firsthand look. He went out with those militias defending the Iraqi capital. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The road is pockmarked from shelling. Many of the homes scarred by bombs and bullets. Volunteer fighters from the (INAUDIBLE) and consortium of Shia militias patrol through (INAUDIBLE), an agricultural community southwest of Baghdad.

They control everything up to the banks of the Euphrates, the bridge over the river has been destroyed. ISIS controls the far bank. Three and a half weeks ago, these militiamen and the Iraqi army drove ISIS out. Only now are some civilians beginning to return.

We left before ISIS arrived after we received threats, says (INAUDIBLE). Says his neighbor, we only left with the clothing we were wearing.

Moments later, we hear gunfire, perhaps just a case of twitchy trigger fingers, perhaps ISIS. Even if people wanted to return, many of the houses are unsafe.

Sappers, the guys who de-mine places, haven't come here yet so they don't want us to go inside because a lot of these houses were booby- trapped.

Some of the civilians in this predominantly Sunni area left with ISIS as it retreated. An Iraqi colonel (INAUDIBLE) fought ISIS in this area and says many among the enemy are not from here.

The majority, he says, let's say 60 percent, are Arabs, mostly Saudis, then Tunisians, some Libyans and some Egyptians.

ISIS has pulled out of here, but they're not gone. The army controls this area, says the officer (INAUDIBLE), but at night does after ISIS tries to infiltrate.

While Iraqi forces have steadily lost ground elsewhere, here the troops and militiamen are upbeat with time for a bit of humor.

All right. So if you look here, they've written on this donkey, this little one, on the other side, it's written "Abu Bark al-Baghdadi," which is, of course, the name of the Caliph, so-called Caliph, of the Islamic state.

Speaking of which, militia colonel (INAUDIBLE) has a message for the leader of ISIS. Bring it on.

From here all the way to Mosul, whatever he wants to send my way, roadside bomb, a sniper, go ahead, he says. That's my message to him.

A bit of territory regained in this small corner of Iraq, but the road ahead is long and dangerous.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now live from Baghdad is Ben Wedeman. Ben, the story we will hear from U.S. officials consistently here is

that while yes, Iraqi forces in Anbar and elsewhere have not done so well, frankly, against ISIS, that those units around Baghdad are of a different quality, a different level of commitment, and because they're so much better, Baghdad is not under threat. After spending the day with them, did you leave there with confidence that they could defend the city?

WEDEMAN: Certainly, there are many of them, they have a personal stake in defending the city. After all, this is where they and their families live. But what was interesting in that story is that that area is predominantly Sunni, and the Shia militias are obviously Shia, and there's not a lot of warm feelings between the two. And therefore, you know, in the Sunni areas, they're very hesitant to have Shia militias come in because oftentimes they complain they come in as an occupying army. So there's that element to worry about.

And so far what's important, and I think even U.S. officials have noted it, ISIS has not really made a concerted effort to penetrate the defenses of Baghdad. So really, the Iraqi army, the militias have not been put to the test yet.

Where they have been put to the test, as we've seen time and time again in Anbar province, which is now 80 percent under the control of is, is that the Iraqi army, when pushed to the wall, finds a hole and runs away. The track record is not very good, to be quite frank.

SCIUTTO: No question. The other thing we hear from U.S. officials is just concern that Anbar could fall, that it's very much under threat, and I believe the estimate's now 80 percent under ISIS control.

Ben Wedeman's right in the middle of it in Baghdad. Thanks very much for joining us.

Coming up next, what is next for Bentley? He's the dog of the Ebola patient, Nina Pham. You may recognize my next guest. He's author and host of "Monsters Inside Me" on animal planet. Hear why he says Bentley should be euthanized immediately.

First, we're going to have more.

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SCIUTTO: We'll get the latest on the spread of Ebola at the top of the hour, but first we want to talk about the pets of the women infected with Ebola.

A nurse's aide in Spain, she catches the virus and her dog was taken away and put to death. A nurse in Texas catches Ebola and her dog is taken away and put into quarantine, he survives. But are these concerns over the contact between animals and humans justified? Is it a real risk? I want to bring in Dan Riskin. He is a biologist. He is author as well of "Mother Nature is trying to kill you" and he is host of "Monsters Inside Me" on animal planet.

Dan, when you look at it, I suppose one of the first questions is do these dogs pose a health risk if they've been in proximity, as they would with their owners, does it make health sense to euthanize them as a precaution to save other people from getting infected?

DAN RISKIN, BIOLOGIST/AUTHOR, MOTHER NATURE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU: The first thing you have to know about Ebola is that it absolutely can jump between species. That's its M.O. that's how it rolls. That's writ came from. We got it from other animals. It got into humans. Chimpanzees get the disease, it kills them. Our Gorillas get the disease, it kills them.

And so, the question is can it get into a dog and can it get from a dog into more people and spread the disease. The answers are for the first question can it get into a dog, yes. They've shown that dogs in Africa in places where Ebola outbreaks have happened, the dogs have immune responses that indicate that they have been exposed to the Ebola virus and the Ebola virus has gotten into their bodies. So we know that part is possible.

As to whether they can pass it on to more people, we don't know. There is no -- there are no data on that at all. So I think that in Spain, they absolutely made the right call. I love dogs. I think Bentley's adorable. It breaks my heart to think of Bentley being put down. But a little bit, Ebola is worse. Ebola is really scary. And if you have a dog that could very really pose a threat, I think that you have to take the safe route because people's lives could be at stake.

SCIUTTO: So why would Spain make that decision to euthanize the dog as it did, the dog of the nurse there, and the U.S. not do the same thing here? In fact, they're letting the dog be taken care of by the hazmat company that cleaned her apartment. Why the difference?

RISKIN: I don't know. I'm surprised that they've take than route in Texas and I'm not sure it's just that there's not a policy in place. I'm sure if you went around and asked the CDC you'd get a variety of opinions. But I think -- my guess it, that they will fall closer in line with what I'm saying.

The dog, not only -- I mean, it's one thing to put it in quarantine for a few days or 21 days, whatever they're talking about, but there's no reason to -- we don't know that the quarantine period for a dog has any correlation to the quarantine period far person. It's quite possible that the dog -- it's quite possible the dog, if it doesn't get sick in the first 24 hours is going to be fine. And it's also possible that a dog can hold on to that virus for three months before it starts to get sick. Or it's possible the dog doesn't sick, it's just fine. But every time it poops on the sidewalk it dumps a whole bunch of virus. Then what happens to that?

I mean, when this is all said and done, and I hope that, you know, the nurse is fine, I wouldn't want that dog pooping on my lawn. That's what it comes down to. It is -- I mean, they can test the dog to see if its immune system has come into contact with Ebola. But I don't feel like I would ever be 100 percent sure because no one's ever done controlled studies on dogs and Ebola in this way. SCIUTTO: Right. And we know that that is one of the places waste is

where it has some of the highest concentration of the virus and that's why nurses and other health care workers in such proximity the possibility of getting the disease.

I wonder, you handle pets all the time. People love their pets. I love dogs as well. They have a very emotional connection to them. At the same time there's an emotional response to this disease. There is a lot of fear, some of it undue. In your view, is this drive to euthanize the pets as a precaution, is it part of that unjustified fear or is it a justified fear?

RISKIN: Well, I mean, when all is said and done, this dog probably isn't going to make that bag difference. Even if it does carry the virus and even if it did lead to one or two more people getting the virus, I think that's all that would happen.

On the other side of the world, though, we have the world health organization saying we're going to be looking at 10,000 new cases of human Ebola every week, and that is the raging out-of-control fire that everybody needs to face.

I mean, we're all looking at north America and saying are we OK if a spark lands on our field to stop it from becoming a big fire. But if there's a raging fire in the field on the other side of the planet and we need to put that fire out so no more sparks are coming this way. I mean, really, the dog is a little bit of a distraction. I think that the dog is a hazard. But I think that the amount of effort that's put into thinking about this dog, let's just throw some money at this and try to get the disease cured in West Africa where it's really killing people.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Wildfire. That's a metaphor a lot of people are using because it does spread so quickly and hard to put out.

Thank you very much again to Dan Riskin. Great to have you on.

RISKIN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, we are going to get at that question -- is the fear of Ebola worse than the actual disease? That's after this break.

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SCIUTTO: A sneak peek of Anthony Bourdain's "PARTS UNKNOWN" tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern. This week he eats his way through the exotic landscape of Vietnam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this spicy for you?

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, PARTS UNKNOWN: It is good. Love it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are very spicy. BOURDAIN: No, I like it. What I found when I first came to this part

of the world, my palate changed. I needed an elevated level of chilies and heat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)