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Cruise Ship Returning to Texas Over Ebola Fears; Dallas Doctor Who Treated Ebola Patient Speaks Out; Frontier Airlines Contacting 800 Passengers; Why Is Ebola Czar Not A Doctor; Michael Brown's Blood Found in Wilson Patrol Car; News Conference on Missing UVA Student, Hannah Graham
Aired October 18, 2014 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto in New York. And we begin with the far-reaching effects of Ebola. The plan, leave no stone unturned. A cruise ship is steaming back to Galveston, Texas with a lab supervisor who may have come into indirect contact with Ebola. And Frontier Airlines is scrambling to contact as many as 800 passenger who may have flown on a plane that Ebola patient Amber Vinson flew on herself. Vinson and Nina Pham, the latest Americans to contract the virus are still recovering at specially equipped hospitals.
Fears of an outbreak in the U.S. has led President Obama to appoint an Ebola czar. Ron Klain will lead the response by the country's government agencies to the Ebola outbreak. The monitoring period for 48 people who had contact with Thomas Eric Duncan before he was hospitalized, that ends tomorrow. Duncan is the Liberian Ebola patient who died last week. Now, for the first time we're hearing from a doctor who was instrumental in treating him and to other nurse who contracted the disease.
CNN's Alina Machado joins us now from Dallas. Alina, when you listen to this doctor's defense really of how the hospital handled this case, he got very emotional and said that they did their best and, in fact, they took great risk to treat him.
ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. This doctor is Dr. Gary Weinstein and he sat down with CNN affiliate WFAA to talk about the care that Thomas Eric Duncan received when he was here at Texas Presbyterian hospital. And the reporter specifically asked him about the allegations that Duncan did not receive the best care because of his race, because he was black, and also because he did not have health insurance. Listen to what Dr. Weinstein had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. GARY WEINSTEIN, TEXAS HEALTH PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I find that remarkably insulting. I don't know how better to describe that. The team here worked their tails off trying to save his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACHADO: Now, in that interview, Dr. Weinstein was also asked about allegations that teams were not given the proper protection gear. His response Jim was that teams got the protection gear that they requested.
SCIUTTO: Alina, help us understand the numbers here because we understand there are 48 people being monitored for contact to Thomas Eric Duncan, but you also have to worry about contacts for the two nurses who treated him who then contracted the disease, Nina Pham and Amber Vinson. Do we know the totals? How many people exactly are now being watched to see if they're developed these disease?
MACHADO: Well, in terms of the totals, there are dozens of people, possibly more than 70 people being monitor right now for possible Ebola infection. We know that 48 people who had close contact with Thomas Eric Duncan are said to be out of that monitoring period midnight Sunday into Monday. So, we know that once they get to that point, we believe that those people will be cleared. Among those people are Thomas Eric Duncan's girlfriend and some of her family members. And you may recall they were all in the same apartment with Duncan before he fell ill. And we were just at a news conference here with Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins. We asked him, will this family be allowed to go back to that apartment? His response was that their lease was up anyways, they were going to move anyway, and so once they're out of this monitoring period they're going to be moving into a new place and several local leaders, city leaders, will be assisting this family in finding them a new place to live.
SCIUTTO: Yes, that milestone 21 days for at least that first case, Thomas Eric Duncan, could be an encouraging one if no other cases develop from that. But of course there are others that we're now watching and following. Thanks very much to Alina Machado following this in Dallas.
Want to bring in now infectious diseases and public health specialist, Dr. Celine Gounder. So, Dr. Gounder, you look at this response. You have a cruise ship with someone who had indirect contact with a patient with a specimen from Duncan that's going to come back to the U.S., you know, forthwith to make sure that she's OK. Airplanes, other health workers in Dallas, anybody who lived in close proximity to these people. Do you think they're getting the balance right in terms of casting this net as widely -- maybe not too widely to get all those contacts?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: Well, that's the core of Ebola control. This is what's worked in previous epidemics or outbreaks in Africa. What you do is you isolate those who have disease, you trace the contacts and you quarantine the contacts, and that's what works. And so you do it in terms of concentric circles from the index patient, and so you want to go wide enough that you're capturing all the persons who have been expose but not so wide that you're really wasting resources and inconveniencing people unnecessarily.
SCIUTTO: Right. And causing fear. Here's one of those concentric circles. It's not just the people who flew on the plane that this nurse -- flew with her on the plane, but now the airline is contacting anybody who flew on that plane after the fact so we're getting into the hundreds now. They're not quarantining them. Is that in your view a responsible step knowing how the disease is transmitted? Because presumably you can't sit in a seat a couple hours later and get the disease or maybe you can.
GOUNDER: Well, it really depends on whether bodily fluids contaminated the airplane so far as we know, Amber Vinson was not having vomiting or diarrhea or anything that she would have spread bodily fluids on the plane. So it's very unlikely anybody would be infected in that way. The most likely way anybody would have been infected by Amber Vinson on the plane would have been in direct contact with her, perhaps somebody sitting right next to her, a flight attendant who might have handed her something or assisted her with something. But just flying on that plane is very unlikely.
SCIUTTO: In your view, is this one of those case where is they're extending that too broadly?
GOUNDER: I think it might be too broad, but I think you're also dealing with a public relations issue here where people realize they flew on that plane, weren't notified by the airlines, that wouldn't go over so well.
SCIUTTO: I see. So, better for the company. We're talking about pr basically for the company.
GOUNDER: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Let's talk if we can about the international response. Because I know you've spoken very strongly on this. The U.S. has resources for this. You know, whether they're using the -- well, you know, it's got resources, in Africa that's a problem. And you mentioned to me that they've been looking for a billion dollars in aid. How much of that money has been delivered?
GOUNDER: Yes. So, the U.N. has set up a special fund that they're trying to raise a billion dollars for. About $365 million has been pledged by various countries but only $100,000 has actually been received by the country of Colombia. That's nothing.
SCIUTTO: This is incredible because this is a criticism that goes back to just the early response to this disease, that the world did not respond quickly enough when it was first breaking out in these countries in West Africa and had they, you wouldn't have the danger that you have today of it breaking into the U.S. and Europe et cetera. And the W.H.O. now even criticizing itself in effect.
GOUNDER: Right.
SCIUTTO: In your view, how bad were those errors early on?
GOUNDER: This entire epidemic has been about too little too, slow, too late.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GOUNDER: And, you know, we're dealing with the consequences of that now. The U.S. has pledged now to build 17 Ebola treatment units. They have barely just set up a separate unit for treatment of health care workers. The first of those 17 Ebola treatment units is still being built. And World Health Organization is saying in two months we could have 10,000 cases a week on our hands. We really need to be gearing up the response much more quickly than we are.
SCIUTTO: So, it was too little too late too slowly initially, how about today? Several months into the crisis.
GOUNDER: I would say, still the same. I mean, we've geared up some but we're still not anywhere near -- you have to catch up with the virus and we're nowhere near that.
SCIUTTO: Right. And that's in West Africa. How about in the U.S.?
GOUNDER: The U.S. I think it's a different story. I think we've learned a lot from the experience in Dallas. I think hospitals are responding. There's more that still needs to be done. I think the appointment of Ron Klain is very important. Part of the challenge is also bridging federal agencies, State and Local Health Department, and the private sector, a lot of our health care is delivered in the private sector here. And Tom Frieden doesn't have authority to tell a state and local health department or the head of a hospital, this is what you have to do. He can advise. He can support. He can't tell Tony Fauci, you know, his colleagues and I what to do. So, having somebody who's really overseeing the response, who can maybe cut through some of the politics, the bureaucracy I think will be very helpful.
SCIUTTO: The Pentagon is offering its own doctors and health experts to hospitals if necessary to U.S. hospitals, pretty remarkable, would be a remarkable deployment of assets. Celine Gounder, thanks very much. Hear it from an expert.
GOUNDER: My pleasure.
SCIUTTO: Frontier Airlines putting the jet that Ebola patient Amber Vinson flew on through extensive cleaning now beyond what is required by the CDC. Next, the CEO of that airline joins us to talk about the efforts to find passenger who flew on that plane and when it will be put back into service. You're seeing some of the cleaning underwent right there.
And we're getting word of a police news conference happening in just a few minutes in Charlottesville, Virginia, regarding the missing University of Virginia student Hannah Graham. We're not sure what is going to be said or announced but we plan to bring you that live when it happens. So please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: And welcome back. Frontier Airlines says, it is contacting up to 800 passengers who may been on the flight that Ebola patient Amber Vinson took before she was hospitalized. Vinson is the second Dallas nurse diagnosed with the disease after treating patient Thomas Eric Duncan. Frontier says, the risk to passengers is extremely low and it's telling passengers to contact the CDC if they have any further concerns.
For more now, we want to turn to the CEO of Frontier Airlines, he's David Siegel, he's joining us now from their headquarters in Denver. David Siegel, thanks very much for joining us. Starting with a specific question, is the plane back in service now?
DAVID SIEGEL, CEO, FRONTIER AIRLINES: The plane is not yet back in service. It's still back here in Denver. I actually flew the plane yesterday, I was on it for eight hour, and sat in the same seat as Amber Vinson.
SCIUTTO: As a sign of confidence. You want to show that you're confident that the plane is safe?
SIEGEL: Absolutely. It's probably the cleanest plane in the skies right now.
SCIUTTO: Right. Yes. After seeing that cleaning, which I'm sure planes do not normally go under in my experience. But let's ask you about the 800 people who flew on that plane either with Amber Vinson or soon afterwards. Have you been able to reach all of them at this point?
SIEGEL: Well, at Frontier we've directly contacted, called, and e- mailed all the passengers on Flight 1143 that Amber Vinson flew on. The other passengers who flew on the aircraft that next day and the ones who flew on the aircraft with her from Dallas to Cleveland on that Friday we have e-mailed. In all cases, we let them know that they needed to contact the CDC if they had questions or concerns. And in fact the CDC instructed us only to contact the passengers on Flight 1143 to provide the contact information to the CDC so that they could contact those passengers. And we simply alerted the passengers on 1143 that they should also reach out to the CDC.
SCIUTTO: So, question for you, I wonder, do you feel badly, sir, by the CDC -- just in the first instance that the nurse was allowed to fly on that plane, she apparently called the CDC before getting on. It's your plane, it's your airline. Do you feel that the CDC made a mistake there that damaged -- this is a risky thing to happen to airlines -- that damaged you and the business and the company?
SIEGEL: Well, certainly Frontier did suffer financial damage. It's not my place really to take an issue with the CDC. Our concern really is the safety of our -- first our passengers and certainly all of our employees. So I think to the extent that, you know, we are always protecting and looking out for the safety of our passengers and employees we were certainly concerned and we've been very proactive in making sure that we could do everything possible with the information that we had to protect those passengers and employees.
SCIUTTO: Now, looking ahead, you also have the pilots and the flight attendants who flew on that plane and were on that plane for a good deal of time. They're on leave for 21 days, that incubation period for the disease. What other precautions are you taking that people and the public mind not know about? SIEGEL: Well, first let me be clear. The CDC did not instruct us to
take the extra precautions that, in fact, we did, but we feel an obligation to passengers and employees to really hold ourselves to the highest possible safety standards. So the CDC did not instruct us, did not think that our flight crew was at risk. They did not instruct us to put those flight crew on leave. We just wanted to be extra careful, extra safe in protecting them, so that's why we took that action.
Similarly, we confirmed with the CDC that the aircraft was safe to fly, but we took it out of service really just to make sure that we could reassure our employees and our passengers that everything was OK. We hold ourselves, you know, to the highest possible standards and all of our aircraft, every night are actually sanitized and disinfected to guidelines that meet or exceed CDC standards. So we always fly a safe fleet, but we want to take extra precautions really to reassure employees and passengers.
SCIUTTO: Well, David Siegel, thank you very much for letting us inside how Frontier Airlines is responding to the Ebola threat. We appreciate your time.
I want to bring in now infectious diseases and public health specialist Celine Gounder, we'll bring her back to talk about this. You know, I hear that. It's encouraging to one degree, but what worries me is this. You had one case on that plane. CDC didn't instruct them to take all these steps but yet 800 they're contacting, put the flight crews on 21-day leave. It just shows you that if you have one case or a suspected case anywhere, you know, the kind of response, the cost, et cetera, some of which are necessary, but when you listen to him, did you say, oh, that all makes sense to me or that seemed a little over the top?
GOUNDER: Well, it seemed a little over the top. In terms of people being infected by say, for example, airplane disease or something like that, there have been cases of people being infected by bedding, mattresses and the setting of Ebola epidemics but they were soiled with bodily fluids. So far as we know there was no such contamination of the seats on the plane. So, you know, I think I can understand from a public relations perspective but not from a medical perspective.
SCIUTTO: It's public relations. I just kind of recount a story in the Pentagon yesterday, someone got sick outside the bathroom. And they brought in hazmat teams to clean it up. There was no indication that anyone had any tie to the disease. That's just one small thing. It's over quickly, but I wonder if -- did that serve the public interest in your view? This is your expertise. You've responded to these things before. Does it serve the public interest to have that kind of abundance of caution response or perhaps above the abundance of caution response?
GOUNDER: Well, I think it does instill more fear in the public. It adds to misconceptions about how the disease is transmitted. To be clear, it is direct contact with bodily fluids including droplets that you might spew, you know, in your immediate vicinity. And I think it's also -- it's a distraction from the real problem at hand. It can cause tremendous impact economically, for example, for Frontier Airlines. And it's also a diversion of resources away from things that will actually work.
SCIUTTO: Could make a difference. And for the hospital involved too. The hospital in Texas has about a third of its beds filled now as a result of this, although a much more direct case there.
GOUNDER: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Celine Gounder, thanks very much for your expertise. Your wise advice on how to respond to this.
Well, the new so-called Ebola czar is not a doctor. He's a lawyer. Was that really the best choice for the White House to make lead the charge against Ebola? What a great question to ask our political commentators.
Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill, they will debate that topic. We also want to tell you that we are getting word of a police news conference about to get underway in Charlottesville, Virginia, that's regarding the missing University of Virginia student Hannah Graham. We'll bring you that news conference to you when it happens. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: We're awaiting a news conference from Charlottesville, Virginia, regarding the missing University of Virginia student Hannah Graham. CNN correspondent Jean Casarez is on the phone. Jean, as we await for this press conference, and again to remind our viewers, she disappeared one month ago, second-year student at University of Virginia, we do not know what this press conference will announce, but we will be monitoring it closely. Jean, give our viewers some background on this case and for others who may not have been following it.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a case that the entire country has been following just as you said for a little over a month now. University of Virginia sophomore Hannah Graham was out on a Friday night, September 12th, and she was walking along the downtown mall and basically she suddenly disappeared and there has been no sight of her at all. Now, here's what we're learning. Besides the press conference at 5:30 tonight, which is in just a few minutes, a source of mine near in Charlottesville who has participated in part of many of the search efforts tells me that around noon today that an area they were searching in and it was rural area was suddenly sectioned off and tape was put around it merely so you could not drive into the area. And I do find that highly unusual right there because since this search has begun one month ago I have never seen tape put up so you cannot drive in or out. So when I heard that I was a little suspect of what was happening. And I think this press conference tonight in just a few minutes is going to be extremely important because we'll see if it means something or if it doesn't.
SCIUTTO: Well, tremendous search has been underway even from the air employing drones, private airplanes looking for signs perhaps that an indication that they've found a clue there. Just one thing to remind our viewers if you could get us some more detail, Jean, there is a suspect in the case, Jesse Matthew, and a connection possibly to another missing girl in 2009 Morgan Harrington, who went missing in the same area. Can you explain what's the status of the investigation in terms of the suspect involved?
CASAREZ: The person that is sitting in the county jail right now is Jesse Matthew, and you're exactly right. He's a suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham. In fact, he has been charged with a felony in regard to Hannah Graham, abduction of Hannah Graham.
So the kidnapping aspect. We do know. Sources close to case of Morgan Harrington, which is another young girl, Virginia tech student that went missing in 2009, her remains were found in a rural area outside of Charlottesville January 2010. Forensic links to Jesse Matthew, DNA link to Jesse Matthew to the remains or items of clothing of Morgan Harrington. We don't know that there is a forensic link to Hannah Graham because they have not released what the forensics are, but there is probable cause that he kidnapped her.
And so there is a link there because you suddenly have someone that is linked to another missing person and now there's another missing person. Remember Jesse Matthew was seen on surveillance video with Graham minutes before she was ever seen again.
SCIUTTO: And we're seeing some of that surveillance video here. And we saw some pictures of the suspect. Just a very sad case for the family of Hannah Graham. We're going to be watching it very closely. Jean Casarez is going to stay with us and we'll have that for you when it begins, scheduled to begin at the bottom of the hour.
We're going to go back now to the main story we've been covering most of this afternoon. That is the story about the American response to the Ebola outbreak. As you may have known, President Obama appointed a so-called Ebola czar yesterday, but his choice to coordinate the government's response to Ebola has left a few people puzzled. That's because his pick is Ron Klain, he's a longtime Washington lawyer, plenty of insider credentials but not a health care or medical expert.
We want to talk about this now with our CNN political commentators Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson. I'll begin with you Marc, why a Washington lawyer, longtime democrat insider? I know on the one hand that this is a White House that has a tremendous number of national security threats to track. You have the wars in Iraq and Syria, homeland threat possibly of ISIS. So here's an attempt to give someone the lead on this. But do you think this was the right choice?
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do think it was the right choice. Many people called for a medical doctor, and I think a medical doctor has a place. That place is the surgeon general's office. This person is someone who can handle crises and this is certainly a crises. It should be someone who can handle the logistics of Washington. And he certainly has experience doing that. You want someone who has Washington know-how. And that's what you want right now. You get doctors, you defer to experts, you defer to the CDC, you defer to the acting surgeon general, but you need a Washington person.
SCIUTTO: Ben, do czars work? I mean, we've had drug czars. We now have an Ebola czar.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure.
SCIUTTO: I mean, a lot of presidents, republican and democrat, have done this. Do they make a difference?
FERGUSON: Yes, when their expertise is in the field. I mean, look at the drug czar we have now. Former FBI, former police, former narcotics. He's a guy that understands the drug world and that's why he has been I think pretty effective on dealing with drug policy. But if you look at what we have now with the Ebola czar, you have a very polarizing political figure that has a lot of people on Capitol Hill that do not like him, which is the reason why he should have been disqualified first off. This should have been someone who doesn't know anything about politics because it should be about Ebola, it should be a doctor that understands the missteps that we've had and how to correct them. It's someone that should understand infectious disease policies and what you do and don't do to stop infectious disease. You have an individual that is having to have cliff notes that are given to him about basic questions about medical care.
He's more of a pr czar, I would say, than he is an Ebola czar. And that's why this pick -- a lot of people scratched their head and said, look, he may be great at helping people feel calm but look how well that worked for the CDC director who, by the way, is a doctor. We don't want one of those people. We want someone that fixes that problem to make sure that this gets fixed now and we're not waiting on it and that's why this pick to me and a lot of other people was, it was one of those you scratch your head and go, what are they doing right now in Washington?
SCIUTTO: But Marc, let me ask you about the politics of this, because you know, there's a perception that the handling so far has been fumbled. First of all, with the outbreak in Africa, not enough of an international response to contain it there, but now as the first cases came to the U.S., were they quarantined properly, et cetera, does that damage the president because of that response, because of the stumbles and the response so far?
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think as a practical matter anything that makes the entire American population terrified doesn't help the president. When you have a terrified nation, it doesn't bode well for whoever's in the White House. I think, again, the question is this the president's fault, there are certain things the president could have done, certain ways I wish he would have allayed the anxieties of the American people, but the president isn't responsible for Ebola. Things that happened in Dallas are not the president's fought, but it comes down to a P.R. question, another reason you want a Washington insider to be Ebola czar at the same time you defer to medical experts on the medical question.
But certain things I think come from a lack of medical knowledge for the general public. For example, the right, for the most part, for the last few weeks has argued we should close the borders. We've seen evidence showing that doing that doesn't help but could make things worse. But that's what the American people are calling for. So the president's in a very tough spot. What he's trying to appeal and defer to experts at the same time that he's trying to allay the anxieties of the American public that will always will terrified of Ebola as they should be.
FERGUSON: Marc, you just summed up the people why people do not trust President Obama on Ebola right now. You said that's why we need a Washington insider. You didn't say that's why we need a medical doctor and it's because there seems to be a complete fundamental misunderstanding by this administration --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: I did say that, Ben.
FERGUSON: But hold on. Let me finish this.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: But you just misrepresented my point. I never said we don't need a medical doctor. I said we do. We need to defer the medical doctors. I said that.
FERGUSON: But you said we need a political insider and the American people are not asking for a political insider --
LAMONT HILL: As head of P.R.
FERGUSON: -- to be in charge of Ebola as a czar. They want to deal with the disease. They don't want to deal with the politics of it. That's the problem.
LAMONT HILL: Ben, maybe --
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: But you're misrepresenting the argument.
There's precedent here. When the president was trying to fix Obamacare, he picked Jeff Zeince (ph), another kind of "fix Obamacare" czar, not necessarily a healthcare guy.
FERGUSON: Sure.
SCIUTTO: Can you make an argument that you need a Washington insider to make Washington work, knowing Washington doesn't always work that well all the time?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But here's the thing. The Ebola response is not a Washington response. It's a CDC response. It's a lack of dealing with the actual medical conditions. Congress is not going to stop Ebola. And he should understand that. That's why you have a czar that understands disease and infection control and understands how to make sure that, for example, the CDC comes out and says, if you're a doctor or nurse that's in the room with someone who has Ebola, you don't go get on a plane or a cruise ship. And that's going to be something we do today, not looking into it five days from now. And that's what the American people want.
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: Gentlemen, I'm going to have to leave it there. But thanks very much. Politics are very important to this because it's going to need a political response to get things done.
Ben and Marc, appreciate having you on.
I want to remind our viewers we're following another story as well, a developing story, and that is a news conference scheduled to get under way momentarily in Charlottesville, Virginia. That's a live picture there. This is regarding the disappearance of University of Virginia student, Hannah Graham. She's been missing for a month now. We're awaiting the possibility of an important announcement regarding this case. We're going to bring you that live when it happens.
Please stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: We don't know what will be announced at this press conference, but we will bring it to you live when it happens. Those taking part of a joint task force who have been investigating her disappearance. I'll remind our viewers there is a suspect in the case. His name is Jesse Matthew. He has already been charged with abducting her. That said, there is no evidence yet of what happened to her after that abduction. In fact, there's video of him walking with her after she disappeared. Again, we don't know what will be announced that the press conference. We are watching it very closely. A very sad case. She's been missing now for a month.
While we wait for that press conference to come, we want to bring you more details on another story we've been follow, and that is on the case that, as you'll remember, triggered weeks of violence and protests in Ferguson, Missouri. "The New York Times" reporting today that forensics tests found Michael Brown's blood inside the patrol car of the officer who shot him on August 9th. In fact, for the first time, we're hearing what that officer, Darren Wilson, said about what happened inside his police car and, minutes later, outside that unit, Wilson killed Brown who, you'll remember, was not armed.
We turn to CNN's Ted Rowlands in Ferguson, Missouri.
Ted, the new details seem to add some credence to the story that Officer Wilson had been saying that he feared for his life that day, that there was some altercation inside that car. Can you fill our viewers in on what's contained in this story that's new?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Jim, basically what we're hearing for the first time from "The New York Times" -- and this is a federal source with knowledge of what Officer Darren Wilson told a grand jury in September during four hours of testimony in front of this grand jury. So this is our first time hearing details of what Officer Wilson claims happened at the initial encounter with Mike Brown. And basically what this source is telling "The New York Times" -- and we each reached out and tried to confirm this and have not to this point. But what this source is saying is that Mike Brown was the reason the door was slammed, that he intentionally slammed the door on Officer Wilson. That's what he's saying.
And there was a struggle for the gun and then you could presume that there would be fear on Officer Wilson's standpoint for his life because, according to this source, he says that Mike Brown was going for the gun. In fact, the source tells "The New York Times," quote, "Officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown had punched and scratched him repeatedly, leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck." Also according to the source, the FBI's evidentiary team went in and found blood on the gun of Officer Wilson, found blood on the interior door panel in Officer Wilson's vehicle and on Wilson's uniform itself. So the physical evidence there, of course, could also, depending on what the grand jury believed, could bolster Officer Wilson's version of the story -- of the story of what happened during the initial encounter.
The big question, Jim, that does remain, is what happened afterward. Why did Officer Wilson shoot Mike Brown after he had broken away from that vehicle? That, we don't have any further information on in terms of Wilson's version of the facts.
SCIUTTO: No question. That's a very important distinction, because regardless of what happened in the car -- and we were speaking with our legal experts earlier, Ted -- what happened later when the officer decided to use deadly force -- that is the key question here -- was that a just use of deadly force. I wonder, Ted, as well, remind viewers there were other eyewitnesses who tell a different story about that altercation in the car. In fact, Michael Brown's friend who was with him, he said, did he not, that the policeman in fact dragged Brown in, so you have very competing narratives of how that altercation was carried out.
ROWLANDS: Yeah. The young man with Mike Brown says the officer -- says Officer Wilson pulled the car backwards in front of them, tried to open his door and then inadvertently hit Mike Brown with the door, it bounced back into Wilson and then, according to the witness with Mike Brown, Officer Wilson grabbed Mike Brown and brought him into the car and initiated that initial altercation. The physical evidence would support both theories, quite frankly. It comes down to which side of the story will this grand jury believe. Will there be enough for an indictment in this case.
People here in Ferguson are very frustrated. They believe that this secret grand jury was not the way to go. They would have liked a preliminary hearing where all of this would have been played out in open court. They simply do not trust the system. In fact, people I've been talking to here today fully now believe that there will be no indictment.
SCIUTTO: Ted, enormously emotional case, politically sensitive, but new developments now on the legal side.
Thanks very much, Ted Rowlands in Ferguson.
I want to bring back our CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill, to talk about the political implications of this.
But again, I do want to also remind our viewers we're stand by for a press conference in Charlottesville, Virginia, in the case of the missing UVA student Hannah Graham. That's a picture from the press conference. It has not started yet. When it does -- and it's a very important announcement in this case. When it does, we'll bring it to you live.
First, back to Ben and Marc.
Ben, new information here, this is an extremely sensitive case. We saw the violence that it sparked and the emotions that continue in Ferguson and around, regarding this case. How do you think this new information affects the case?
FERGUSON: Well, I think from people that are wanting the truth, they're going to look at this and say there are two sides of the story. There are certainly people on both sides who don't care about the facts of this. They've already made up their mind and decided what team they are on. But ultimately this is information that the grand jury certainly needed to hear. I don't want one side to win or the other. I want the truth to come out. And whatever the truth is -- and somebody's lying. You can tell from these stories. Someone is not telling the truth.
And so I think if we step back from this and we look at it for what it is, we should say we're glad this information is coming forward. It's important information. And ultimately, the people are going to decide on that grand jury what story do they believe. And I think this is part of that, you know, moving forward and seeing what happened.
SCIUTTO: Marc, I want to ask you -- I'm just going to tell our viewers we've just gotten warning it will be five minutes and this press conference regarding the case of the missing UVA student Hannah Graham will begin. Expecting important announcements there.
Back to you, Marc. Ben makes a great point. In this case in Ferguson, too many people on both sides have already come to a conclusion long before the justice system has worked through its essential investigation and the process of determining guilt or innocence here. If this goes in the way where there are no charges filed against the policeman, how will that local community react do you think? Is it possible even with a long investigation to satisfy the people there who feel that they are targeted by police?
HILL: No, I don't think it will satisfy them, and I don't think that it should satisfy them. So much of the truth and facts that have come out are immaterial to the point that Michael Brown was shot, according to witnesses, with his hands in the air. If there was a scuffle in the car, we need to know that. If Michael Brown was stealing from a store, maybe we need to know that. Who knows? What I know for sure though is his hands in the air -- his hands being in the air means he should not be shot. Whether or not there was a scuffle in the car, once the officer is no longer in danger, he doesn't have a right to shoot him. Whether Mike Brown was a good kid or not doesn't give the officer a right to shoot him. Whether or not the protest are appropriate or not doesn't give -- doesn't justify not having a charge against Darren Wilson. I don't want us to ever confuse what happened --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Yeah.
SCIUTTO: Marc, a great point.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It sounds like you've already made up your mind on this.
SCIUTTO: Ben, he makes a great point.
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: We had a long conversation with legal expert, and from a legal perspective, those two incidents are separate. Whatever happened in the car, when a policeman makes a decision to use deadly force outside of the car, moments later, it's a different thing. That said, legal experts say in the minds of jurors, grand jurors, et cetera, it invariably affects the way decide. But, Ben, let me let you Ben, make your point as well.
HILL: But it shouldn't.
FERGUSON: This is the thing, though, is that we see people -- and I think Marc is obviously pointing towards the idea that he does not believe the cop. He believes the cop shot a guy who had his hands up in the air. I don't think that that is what the point of this conversation should be. It should be, is all the information out there.
LAMONT HILL: That's not what I said.
FERGUSON: And there are two sides. Well, but you implied you don't shoot someone who has their hands up. I agree with that, but we don't know if that is exactly what happened that day. We do not know that yet.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: What happened in the car doesn't tell us. No. But, Ben, you're missing my point and you're misrepresenting my point. What I'm saying is, is what happened in the car is not connected to what happened on the street. And even if the worst thing imaginable happened in the car and Michael Brown was the worst human being in the history of human beings in that car, it still doesn't give him the right to be shot with his hands in the air. Our interest and our investigation -- (CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: If his hands were in the air --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Let me finish, Ben. Hold on, Ben. That's what I'm trying to say but you keep going in another direction.
What I'm saying is what we found out today is immaterial with regard to what happened on the street. That's all I'm saying.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: You have evidence that Michael Brown's hands weren't in the air, show it to me and then I'll have a different position.
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: Gentlemen, gentlemen, I'm going to have to --
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: Gentlemen, I'm going to have to interrupt you, and I apologize, because we have some other breaking news. But you both make good points there. Gets to the real division in this country about that case. We'll continue to follow it.
We've been telling you, this hour, about a press conference to get under way in Charlottesville, Virginia. That is a live picture there. We're expecting it any moment now. This is in the case of the missing UVA student, Hannah Graham. We'll take a very short break and be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto, in New York.
We are standing by now for a live press conference. That's the picture there from Charlottesville, Virginia. This in the case of the missing UVA student, Hannah Graham. We're expecting an announcement there from the joint task force that has been investigating the case. That press conference, we are told, will begin any minute now.
I want to bring in Jean Casarez, CNN correspondent. She has been following the case of Hannah Graham very closely.
Jean, you were telling me earlier that there was word that a search area had been taped off in the large area around UVA, that police and other investigators had been searching for any signs, any evidence. What do you know about that search area? How significant is that?
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Well, what I've learned, it's in the rural area, but that's nothing unusual there, because there is so much rural around Charlottesville. But it is my understanding that it was midday today that, suddenly, roadways were blocked off, so you couldn't drive through them. And the search was going on in there. And that's what searchers were told that were standing on the outside, not able to get in. And I found that curious, because they have not roped off an area since the search began. And every weekend for a month now has been that search, with professional searchers, law enforcement, the first weekend with volunteers from the community, anyone who would help. And so I've just been thinking about that, because it's unusual. It's different. And now all of a sudden, there is going to be a press conference.
And I can confirm with you also that one of the professional searchers that has been out there was just told that the search is called off for tomorrow for her. That she is not needed to go search tomorrow. And she was planning on searching. She was going to be part of the search party for tomorrow. What this means, we don't know. Maybe they just chose not to use her. Or maybe it is more significant. And this press conference, we hope, will have some those answers -- Jim?
SCIUTTO: No question, a remarkable search with volunteers taking part, including law enforcement, as well. Drones employed, private planes, searching that rural area around UVA.
I want to bring in Tom Fuentes, the former assistant director of the FBI.
Tom, you've been involved in searches like this before. And I'm curious, it's been a very difficult one. They do have a suspect, however. What does this tell you about holding a press conference now, particularly after an area has been taped off, an area of interest in that very large search area? What do you read into this now?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice-over): Well, I would read into it, Jim, that they're pretty convinced they have found the body. And it's a significant development. I think it's the only explanation at this point of -- especially if they are talking about calling off searches tomorrow and have cordoned off an area for further examination.
SCIUTTO: Well, it's a sad moment for a family that's been missing their daughter for a month now.
I would like to remind our viewers, there is a suspect in this case who has already been charged, in fact, with the abduction of Hannah Graham, but not with anything further, not with her death. But there is someone that was seen with her on surveillance video the night she disappeared. That is Jesse Matthew. He has now been arraigned. He is being investigated for this. That is a picture of him there.
Here comes the press conference. We'll listen now.
TIM LONGO, CHIEF, CHARLOTTESVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Good afternoon. I'm joined here at the podium with Colonel Steve Sellers of the Albemarle County Police Department. I'm Chief Longo, Charlottesville Police Department.
I want to thank you in advance for your patience and your respect and your consideration of the fact that there's very little information that we're going to be able to share with you this evening. I know you all have lots of questions. You'll want to know more facts. And those will be facts that we're not in a position to share right now. So at the conclusion of our remarks, we will not be taking any of your questions. There may be, in the days to come, opportunities for that. But we wanted to let you know that in advance. And, again, thank you in advance for your respect and your patience.
It was some 35 days ago, some five weeks, since 18-year-old University of Virginia student, Hannah Graham, disappeared from our downtown pedestrian mall. Since that time, the Charlottesville Police Department, in cooperation with the county of Albemarle and jurisdictions throughout the Commonwealth of Virginia, engaged in an unprecedented search in an effort to find her and return her to her family. Countless hours, thousands of hours, have been spent by literally hundreds of law enforcement and civilian volunteers in an effort to find Hannah. We think perhaps today proved their worth.
Sometime before noon today, a search team from the Chesterfield County Sheriff's Department was searching an abandoned property along Old Lynchburg Road in southern Albemarle County when they discovered what appears to be human remains. Now, fairly shortly after that discovery, at a time that was most appropriate, Detective Sergeant James Mooney, of the Charlottesville Police Department, made a very difficult phone call and reached out to John and Susan Graham to share with them this preliminary discovery. Again, this -- these are human remains, and forensic tests need to be conducted to determine the identification of those remains, but nonetheless, we wanted to be quick and timely to share that information -- excuse me -- with the Graham family.
Now, as Colonel Sellers will point out in a moment, this investigation is complicated. It's a complex, criminal investigation. It's unlikely we'll have any information in the very near future and perhaps days to come that we'll be able to share with you about what we learned today and what we'll likely learn in the days to come. But again, we know you'll be patient. We know you'll be respectful, because there will come a time when we'll be able to tell you more. But that's not today.
On behalf of the Charlottesville and Albemarle County Police Departments, I want to thank everyone who gave up their days, their nights, their weekends, people who called and wrote and dropped food and good wishes and words of encouragement to the search groups and detectives that have worked so hard in this investigation. I want to thank all of those people, because today would not have been possible but not for their prayers, encouragement and help. And I also want to say thanks to Mark Eggeman and all of the people associated with the Department of Emergency Management and many search and rescue volunteers from not just around the Commonwealth of Virginia but around the region, Team Rubicon and others who came to search for Hannah. Mark and his team has spent the last five weeks here in Charlottesville coordinating and mapping and managing and directing continuous search teams in their efforts.
Mark, without your help and the support of your team and the many volunteers you brought to our community, we would not have been able to accomplish a difficult mission. And not only are Colonel Sellers and I grateful, but an entire community is grateful for your commitment and work.
I'm now going to turn the microphone over to Albemarle County Police Chief Steve Sellers.
