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Don Lemon Tonight

Is the Ebola Crisis Obama's Katrina?; Serial Killer Arrested in Indiana?; Monica Lewinsky Trying to Put End to Cyber Bullying; Oscar de la Renta Dead at 82

Aired October 20, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Exclusive: Nurse Amber Vinson's mother in her first television interview. She is in voluntary quarantine tonight, watching for any signs of Ebola. And she's defending her stricken daughter, saying she was in no way careless when she took a commercial flight. I'm going to talk to her and to Amber's pastor, praying for her and reassuring his church family that they are not at risk.

Also, is the Ebola crisis President Obama's Katrina? We're going to talk with a man who knows a lot about moments like that. Does "Heck of a job, Brownie" ring a bell to you? Ex-FEMA Chief Michael Brown is here.

Plus, Monica Lewinsky's emotional first ever public speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONICA LEWINSKY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE INTERN: I was patient zero, the first person to have their reputation completely destroyed worldwide via the Internet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I will ask Frank Bruni of "The New York Times" if it happened today, would it have been such a big scandal or would it have made her a star?

Also, a suspected serial killer in Indiana captured, seven women dead. Are there more?

We have got a lot to get to tonight, but first we're going to begin with some breaking news.

Designer Oscar de la Renta, the dean of New York fashion and the man who designed dresses for just about every modern-day first lady and who most recently designed Amal Clooney's wedding dress, has died at the age of 82. We're going to have more coming up on his death.

But I want to begin with the family of the nurse who is battling Ebola at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta tonight.

Joining me now via Skype, nurse Amber Vinson's mother, Debra Berry. How are you doing, Debra?

DEBRA BERRY, MOTHER OF AMBER VINSON: I have had better days. But thanks for asking.

LEMON: I can only imagine that -- how difficult it is not to be with your daughter, not to be by her side after all these days. How is she doing?

BERRY: She's doing OK, just trying to get stronger every day.

LEMON: What are your conversations with her like? Are you able to speak with her for a long time? Does that help?

BERRY: We try not to talk to her too long because it is tiring, and, again, being labored with the illness, she tries to pace herself. And because she is a true caregiver, she's trying to be an example and give care to herself.

She always cautions us that when you're in the hospital, you're there to rest and do what the doctors tell you to do. So she's trying to be a good example.

LEMON: And that's a good way to lead to the next thing, being a good example, because she was she was contacted by someone, a health representative who got in touch with the CDC asking if she should fly or not. What's behind that story? Was she given the OK to fly?

BERRY: She initially requested permission to travel home because -- just as the way that Amber is, to make sure it's OK that I go. Her team was under a lot of anxiety because they had just lost the patient, and she had come in to give assistance and she was actually off.

After that shift, she told them again she was leaving and she wanted to make sure that it was OK to travel, not only to be of assistance, but to just make sure that everything was OK. She they told her -- she spoke with an assistant manager, who then reported back to her that it was OK to travel.

LEMON: So she got the OK, because speaking to you and other family members, and you said she's always trying to help people, if she thought that she may be emblematic or contagious, she would not have put other people's lives at risk, would she?

BERRY: She would not have placed her life at risk, first of all, just, again, being a caregiver, because part of what she needs to do is be healthy so she can help others.

And you're right, also to not affect anyone negatively. And then, being her mom, Amber would never do anything to negatively impact me. My daughter and I are extremely close. And the thing that we like least to do is to disappoint or hurt one another in any way. And she just -- that's not her character.

LEMON: Has she told you exactly how she thinks that she contracted Ebola? Was there a particular lapse or a moment that she remembers? I mean, we have heard a lot from the nurses about inadequate protective gear and so on.

BERRY: I heard a conversation that she had explaining in detail how she -- there's a term they have been using -- I don't recall what it is, but the way they basically robe and disrobe. And it was extremely thorough. And they told her that she did all of the right things. So I have no idea how that happened.

LEMON: Ms. Berry, can you explain to us and clear up this about exactly when she started to feel that ill? Because she went home to visit you and to plan her wedding that weekend. And when exactly did she start to feel sick? Because there are some discrepancies there.

BERRY: Absolutely.

She departed to go home back to Dallas one Monday afternoon. And she was fine. She called me Tuesday morning and told me that she was dragging herself to the hospital because her temperature was the highest it had ever been.

And that's when she -- she sounded like she was extremely concerned, of course, but she assured me that she was going directly to the hospital, that she was driving alone. And these are things that had been explained in detail to her to do if her symptoms were to manifest.

LEMON: And so she didn't start to exhibit until she got back home. So you don't feel you were at risk or family members or anywhere she went when she was in Ohio that people were at risk or the people on the airplane?

BERRY: Yes.

No, sir. She was fine. And one of the things that we do when we're together, because we both work so much, basically, we have slumber parties. And we sleep, we eat and we watch TV and we talk and usually fall asleep talking, because the time that we are together, we just share so much. And that's what we do to even relax.

LEMON: So you're saying that she didn't go out in public a lot. Is that what you're saying that you're trying to tell me?

BERRY: She didn't. She didn't.

LEMON: Now, again, I just want to get this clear. Did she call the CDC or did a representative from Dallas, from the health agency in Dallas call the CDC?

BERRY: The protocols that were in place that she was to call a team member of the Dallas County Health Department.

And they did the reporting to the CDC.

LEMON: OK. Great. Thank you for clearing that up for us. Now, you're at an undisclosed location in Dallas with your future son-

in-law. And I know you both want to be in Atlanta to be closer to Amber. Are you cleared to fly on a commercial plane? What have you heard from health officials about that?

BERRY: I have not been cleared to fly on a commercial plane, and we're waiting to hear what we can do to get to my daughter.

Someone asked me earlier what I would do to get to her, and I told them that I had good walking shoes. If that were an option, I would take it.

LEMON: If you could walk there, you would do it, but you can't. They won't let you go.

BERRY: They won't let us go.

LEMON: How's your future son-in-law doing? Has he shown any signs or symptoms or does he have a temperature or anything?

BERRY: Absolutely not.

LEMON: How's he holding up?

BERRY: If I had to pick someone to be my son-in-law, I would pick him. He's been wonderful.

LEMON: Also, I know that you started a GoFundMe fund for Amber and folks who want to help can go to www.GoFundMe.com/forAmber. How are you going to use the proceeds?

BERRY: Well, a family friend actually requested permission to do that.

And we're just appreciative that people want to pour out any just love and support for my daughter. I don't have any determination of how she will need to use the funds, because, first of all, we didn't solicit them. But people are eager to just support her and, you know, help in any way possible.

And as, you know, we go through her recovery, we will see how she best needs to use those funds, and we will do the absolutely appropriate thing with those.

LEMON: We appreciate you speaking to us first. And since you have the attention of such a wide audience, is there anything you would like people to know about your daughter, anything you would like to say to the CDC, the Dallas hospital, health workers, the government, even the president? Go ahead.

BERRY: I just thank everyone who has said a prayer for Amber, who has supported my family and my daughter in this time.

And I thank every agency, every county worker, every person who has put forth the effort to make changes so that no one else has to sit where I'm sitting, separated from a sick child. I thank you all. And I just look forward to the day where the tears that I fight back, I don't have to fight because they will be happy tears.

LEMON: Debra Berry, the mother of Amber Vinson, thank you. Best of luck to you. Please keep us informed about your daughter's condition.

BERRY: Thank you, sir.

LEMON: I want to bring in Amber Vinson's pastor at Shoreline Dallas Church.

Pastor McClellan, we appreciate you joining us.

We just heard from Amber's mother Debra. And you're helping to plan Amber and her fiance Derrick's (ph) wedding. Tell us what they're like.

PASTOR EARL MCCLELLAN, SHORELINE DALLAS CHURCH: Derrick and Amber are two beautiful people.

If you ever have the opportunity to meet Derrick, you might be a little bit intimidated when you first meet him. He is a huge human being, played college football, played some time in the NFL, if I remember correctly, and just a huge guy, but has such a kind and gentle heart. But him with Amber, they make a beautiful couple for sure.

All the interactions I have been able to have with them, honestly, it always lifts my heart because, again, he's such a huge guy and Amber being so sweet and kind, and she's almost like a wallflower, but still has a lot of fight and a lot of love in her heart.

LEMON: You have been counseling them, and I wonder -- and you have been speaking to them throughout this process. I wonder how scared he was for his health. The mom said he's doing fine now. It still has not been 21 days, but so far he's fine. What kind of contact did he have with her?

MCCLELLAN: He's doing very, very well. As you heard Amber's mom mention, he was incredibly scared, not just really for himself, but obviously for his bride-to-be.

LEMON: Right. And Amber actually reached out to you after she became symptomatic. How did she feel in the moment? I'm sure she was scared.

MCCLELLAN: You know, for Amber and Derrick, her fiance, for them, they did have some fear, which is natural, but also for them to put their trust and their hope in God. We prayed together.

My wife was there on the phone as well, and we prayed and just trusted God to give them all peace. Didn't know obviously things would unfold the way they have, but we're so incredibly thankful for the community that's been around her, her family that stood by her side. And, honestly, Amber is such a woman of strength and courage. It's been a joy and an honor to watch her walk through this with such grace.

LEMON: Pastor Earl McClellan of Shoreline Baptist Church in Dallas -- Shoreline Church in Dallas, thank you very much, Pastor.

MCCLELLAN: Thank you, sir.

LEMON: And when we come right back, remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Again, I want to thank you all for -- and, Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Former FEMA Director Michael Brown is here. He's speaking out about how the Obama administration is handling Ebola.

And Monica Lewinsky's very public comments on her most private moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEWINSKY: I fell in love with my boss in a 22-year-old sort of way. It happens. But my boss was the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight.

The CDC is out with updated guidelines to better protect health care workers from contracting Ebola. The agency came under fire after two nurses who treated an Ebola patient in Dallas contracted the virus.

Meanwhile, some people are calling for the CDC's director, Dr. Thomas Frieden, to step down.

Michael Brown is one of those people. He was forced to step aside as director of FEMA after Hurricane Katrina battered the Gulf Coast.

Michael Brown joins me now.

Let's get this right off the top. Many people might say the irony in Michael Brown, I mean, the nerve of him to criticize, you know, the FEMA -- the director, when he didn't do a great job during Katrina. Do you understand that criticism?

MICHAEL BROWN, FORMER FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY DIRECTOR: Oh, absolutely. Been there, done that.

But who better to speak to the systemic problems that we have inside the government when we see these kinds of issues arise, Don? And I think what really kind of bothers me is this inability or unwillingness of the public or, for that matter, elected officials to have an objective conversation about, why do we have these problems? Why do we continue to have the problems?

And things like, we already have -- after Congress created the Department of Homeland Security, enacted by (INAUDIBLE) shield, gave -- gave both administrations, the Bush administration and the Obama administration, billions of dollars to prepare for these kinds of things, created an assistant secretary of health and human services to respond to these things, why do we still have these issues?

That's the discussion I think we ought to have. And if I can get people to engage in that discussion, the country's better off.

LEMON: All right. Let's continue on in this direction. I want you to listen to this. And then we will discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Again, I want to thank you all for -- and, Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not that they haven't been doing an outstanding job really working hard on this issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, many people have been comparing, you know, these two moments. Is it fair, considering so many people died during Katrina, and then -- but only one person has died of Ebola here in the United States?

BROWN: Well, no, because any single death is tragic.

And one thing that I think people should stop doing is comparing one disaster to another, because every disaster -- if the disaster is in your yard, the disaster is your house, then that's catastrophic. What they ought to be focusing on instead is, why do these similarities continue to occur where we create these massive bureaucracies and then the bureaucracies -- or for whatever reason -- and I have theories about that -- but why are they inherently incapable of being as efficient and as effective as we want them to be?

LEMON: Do you think that an Ebola czar is a step in the right direction from the administration?

BROWN: No.

In fact, I think it's -- you can certainly draw a similarity there, because the appointment of a czar -- think about it this way, Don. In crisis management 101, the first question that a reporter should ask, a citizen should ask, is, who's in charge?

So now we have the CDC director. We have the NIH director. We have the assistant secretary for response. We have the secretary of health and human services, and now we're going to pile on top of all of that a czar. What statutory authority does he have? What's he supposed to do? And does he have two things?

Does he have decision-making authority? Two, if the people I just outlined are making decisions, is their decision-making then slowed down because they have to go get approval from a czar before they go back? It's the same thing that happened when Congress and Bush created Homeland Security. You put bureaucracy on top of bureaucracy and at the end of the day, everybody's asking, who's in charge?

LEMON: But do you think heads should roll over this?

BROWN: I -- excuse me.

LEMON: I will ask you the question again. Do you think heads should roll over this?

BROWN: You know, that's a decision that every president has to make. Here's the decision I think the people that are active now, whether it's, you know, Dr. Frieden, Dr. Fauci, the secretary of HHS, or anybody, is, can I still be effective if the media, Congress, and everybody else is so focused on me, as opposed to what I'm trying to do?

And I can say from, again, having been there, done that, when that happens and you cross that Rubicon, then it's incumbent upon that individual to say, I'm too much of the issue, I should step aside.

LEMON: Right. I think that's what you're saying about Thomas Frieden. I meant -- one of my earlier questions was you have been saying that Thomas Frieden should step down. I'm wondering if there should be heads beyond Frieden, who you believe should step down.

But I think you have answered that. Let's -- the Pentagon has now ordered a 30-person medical team be put on standby to quickly assist the CDC on Ebola response anywhere in the U.S. How do you feel about the military involvement in this?

BROWN: Well, the military, just from my previous briefings, my previous reading into certain programs, they have got great capabilities. They have got great ability.

And if they will put some military planners in with some of these response teams, it will be very helpful. I think they have to be very careful, though, from the political point of view if they become actively engaged in the interaction with the public, because then that raises issues of Posse Comitatus and what is the military actually doing on the ground.

LEMON: All right, Michael Brown, we appreciate you joining us this evening on CNN. Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: All right.

A man in custody in Indiana could be a serial killer after the bodies of seven women are found. A full report next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Jesse Matthew, the suspect in the disappearance of missing University of Virginia student Hannah Graham, was indicted in a 2005 sexual assault also in Virginia. The charges include abduction and attempted murder. Investigators tonight are trying to determine whether a skull and bones discovered behind an abandoned Virginia home over the weekend are the remains of Graham.

Meanwhile, there may be a serial killer in Indiana. Darren Vann is in custody tonight suspected in seven murders, some of which could date back 20 years.

Joining me now is Karen Freeman-Wilson, the mayor of Gary, Indiana, and chief Larry McKinley, Gary, Indiana's chief of police.

My goodness, you guys have a lot on your hands, a lot to deal with.

Mayor, you first. First, six of the victims were found in a five-mile stretch in your city of Gary. What can you tell us about this investigation tonight?

KAREN FREEMAN-WILSON, MAYOR OF GARY, INDIANA: Well, first and foremost, our heart goes out to the families of Anith Jones and the victim, Afrika Hardy from Hammond.

We can tell you that charges were filed on the case in Hammond, Indiana. That was the victim of -- was Afrika Hardy. We can also tell you that the investigation is ongoing and the good news is that the Gary Police Department, as well as the Gary Fire Department, the Hammond Police Department and the Lake County Sheriff's Department and the prosecutor's office are all working together to follow up every lead on this case.

LEMON: Let's talk to the gentleman sitting next to you, the chief there.

The bodies were found, Chief, in abandoned homes. And, tonight, are your officers going house to house to search for more victims?

LARRY MCKINLEY, GARY, INDIANA, POLICE CHIEF: Well, we have escalated our process. So we have been searching abandoned buildings for the past year-and-a-half.

But we have added a component to what we call our five-by-five-by-five cleanup area, where we go throughout different neighborhoods and we actually do cleanups, whether it's demolition or clearing debris from different areas throughout the city. So we're going to escalate those processes.

LEMON: Do you think your officers are going to find more bodies?

MCKINLEY: Well, it's unknown. It's still under investigation right now. They're taking statements from Mr. Darren -- Mr. Vann. And we are actively investigating the situation at this point.

LEMON: There were missing person reports from some of these victims, correct? MCKINLEY: Yes, there were.

LEMON: OK.

MCKINLEY: We were actively investigating this report for Ms. Jones.

As a matter of fact, the officers were out locating and looking through the area when they were actively contacted by the Hammond Police Department in regards to the actions of Mr. Vann.

LEMON: I think you said -- is it right, did he say something, "I screwed up this time with the last one" and he believes that's why you caught him? Correct?

MCKINLEY: Well, at this point, I'm not sure if it's because he just got caught or he screwed up.

LEMON: OK.

MCKINLEY: But at this point, he is in custody, and we're glad of that, and especially for our citizens.

LEMON: Absolutely.

So, Mayor, do you know why Vann cooperated with police in Hammond? I mean, is -- and is he still cooperating?

FREEMAN-WILSON: We certainly don't have any idea of what motivated his actions even before being captured and since that time. You know, it's hard to get into the mindset of someone who clearly seems to be a psychopath.

LEMON: Yes. The question, though, is we know that he was a convicted sex offender. Was he on a watch list of any kind? On the department's radar at all? Either of you can answer that. Excuse me.

MCKINLEY: Well, he was actually on the registry list. Our Lake County Sheriff's Department has a unit that actively goes out, and they monitor the sex offenders. And Mr. Vann was actually monitored in September, and everything checked out fine with him.

LEMON: Do you expect this to grow into other states in the area, Mayor?

FREEMAN-WILSON: We certainly don't know at this time. But one of the things it's important to remember, Don, is that even though he checked out in September, most folks don't go around committing crimes and then radaring you when they do it. They do it, as he did; he had concealed what he had done. And even in Hammond he left the scene. He had concealed that. And it was simply some of the electronic devices that allowed the Hammond police to get a lead on him and ultimately find him here in the city of Gary.

LEMON: Well, they say that it could go back 20 years, Mayor. Is that -- do you know anything about that? FREEMAN-WILSON: At this juncture we do not. We have recovered six

bodies. Only one of them from Gary has been identified. We are working very closely with the Lake County coroner and anxiously awaiting the identity of the other individuals, because we want to bring their families that information and certainly want them to have a degree of closure.

LEMON: And chief, what does this mean for cold cases in your area?

MCKINLEY: Well, what this means for cold cases, we're going to still be actively seeking out those cold cases. Like I said, we've expedited some of those cold cases. And I will be actually putting more officers on those cold cases.

LEMON: Mayor Freeman-Wilson and Police Chief McKinley, thank you very much for your time.

FREEMAN-WILSON: Thank you so much.

MCKINLEY: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come right back, Monica Lewinsky is back in the public spotlight with a mission to battle a growing problem in America and reinvent herself. Will it work?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Monica Lewinsky back in the public eye after years of living in obscurity. She says her new goal is to put an end to cyber bullying. And we got the story tonight from CNN's Martin Savidge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEWINSKY: If I seem nervous, forgive me. Because I am. And a little emotional.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is surprising to hear a woman famous for intimate sexual acts with the president sounding shy. But there was no mistaking who she is.

LEWINSKY: My name is Monica Lewinsky.

SAVIDGE: The once 22-year-old White House intern is now 41 and launching a mission to combat online bullying.

LEWINSKY: I want to put my suffering to good use and give purpose to my past.

SAVIDGE: It was her 1995 affair with {resident Bill Clinton that made her, as she put it, patient zero when it came to cyber harassment, long before Facebook or Twitter.

LEWINSKY: But there were gossip news and entertainment websites replete with comment sections, and e-mails could be forwarded. Of course, it was all done on the excruciatingly slow dial-up. Yet around the world this story went. A viral phenomenon that you could argue was the first moment of truly social media.

SAVIDGE: At times Lewinsky got emotional.

LEWINSKY: Staring at the computer screen, I spent the day shouting, "Oh, my God" and "I can't believe they put that in" or "That's so out of context." And those were the only thoughts that interrupted a relentless mantra in my head, "I want to die."

SAVIDGE: Instead, it was the death in 2010 of Tyler Clementi, she says, prompted her new life. The Rutgers freshman killed himself after his roommate used a webcam to stream an intimate encounter online. Clementi's story deeply hurt Lewinsky's mother, and Monica understood why.

LEWINSKY: She might very easily have lost me, when I, too, might have been humiliated to death.

SAVIDGE: Lewinsky also used the speech to give her take on the affair that made her a household name.

LEWINSKY: Sixteen years ago, fresh out of college, a 22-year-old intern in the White House, and more than averagely romantic, I fell in love with my boss. In a 22-year-old sort of way. It happens. But my boss was the president of the United States. That probably happens less often.

Now, I deeply regret it for many reasons, not the least of which is because people were hurt, and that's never OK.

SAVIDGE: After nearly a decade of self-imposed seclusion, a strong- sounding Monica Lewinsky appears to be launching a comeback, taking on a cause she knows only too well.

LEWINSKY: Having survived myself, what I want to do now is help other victims of the shame game survive, too.

SAVIDGE: Martin Savidge, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about Monica Lewinsky now with "New York Times" columnist Frank Bruni.

You're listening and watching intently. What did you make of that?

FRANK BRUNI, COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK TIMES": I mean, it's fascinating to see her after all these years.

I felt an enormous amount of sadness for how much of her life she's lost for a mistake she made as a 22-year-old. I think it is important for us to remember she was 22 when this all happened.

Some of what she's saying is a little bit jarring: "I fell in love with my boss." I don't think most of us remember this as a love affair gone sour. I think she is, if not rewriting history, putting a slightly different spin on it. But mostly, I'm struck by just sadness at all that she's lost. And in

particular, this -- this has been in the news a little bit, but it wasn't played in that stretch. She during part of her speech, she let loose with a string of words that are used to describe a, quote unquote, loose woman.

LEMON: Right.

BRUNI: I can't remember them, but I was reminded I wrote a column not long ago in which I laid out all those words and made the point we don't have those words for a man.

LEMON: Right.

BRUNI: One of the things I think would be interesting to discuss in terms of Monica isn't so much cyberbullying as the double standard we have for the way we talk about and treat women whom we deem sexually promiscuous versus men.

LEMON: All right. Having said all that, then, she knows what it's like to be humiliated.

BRUNI: Yes.

LEMON: And those words used against her. And you said you don't -- we don't use these words against men. Is this a good cause for her to take up?

BRUNI: Cyberbullying?

LEMON: Yes.

BRUNI: I mean, it's a perfectly good cause. It's a little bit odd, because what happened to her wasn't what we now think of as cyberbullying.

LEMON: Yes. There was no Twitter. There's no Facebook. There's no social media.

BRUNI: No. And cyberbullying is what happens to you, like, among your friends in a school setting or something like that.

LEMON: Was she bullied by the media, you think?

BRUNI: Yes. But that's not a medium -- that's not about cyberbullying. That's about press coverage. And I don't know that I would say she was bullied. She went through the media grinder in a way that very, very few people have been.

LEMON: Do you think, then, if there was social media then, right, do you think -- or let's just say it happened now when there is social media, and TMZ and all those things and all those sites. Do you think -- Radar Online -- do you think it would be different for her now? Might it just be a story that lasts for, you know, a week, a two, a month and then it's gone? BRUNI: I think -- and this was -- this was a 22-year-old and the

president of the United States, and it led to his impeachment and stuff like that. I think this would have gone on quite a while. It might have burned itself out a little faster because of the attention.

I think it would have been even uglier in some ways. And we saw that today. She got on Twitter today, and I don't know if you saw this but people tweeted back.

LEMON: Yes. Today she was -- her inauguration into Twitter.

BRUNI: Right, right.

LEMON: And I think she said "#herewego." Twitter is brutal.

BRUNI: And here we went. And it was brutal. And people were -- and again, what struck me was just how many of the tweets back to her were about sexual promiscuity and were questions and catcalls along those lines. And I just -- I can't say strongly enough, we have to think about the sexism and the way we talk about women versus men when these scandals come along.

LEMON: She talked about Tyler Clementi, the Rutgers University student who jumped off the bridge after his roommate filmed him in a compromising moment with another student. Do you think that that was -- why do you think that resonated with her so much?

BRUNI: I don't know that it did. I mean, I think she's made a decision to do this campaign, and she's come up with a narrative. I'm sure she noticed it like a lot of us did. I'm sure she was saddened by it like a lot of us...

LEMON: Is she (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

BRUNI: Well, I mean, she's -- she's coming up with a version that tees up her cause in the best way.

LEMON: OK. Can we move on now?

BRUNI: Please.

LEMON: Let's talk about Ebola.

BRUNI: It's an interesting transition.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about Ebola, because here's what you said in your column just a few days ago. You said, "I'm not dismissing the horror of Ebola, a full-blown crisis in Africa that should command the whole world's assistance. And Ebola in the United States certainly warrants concern. We're still searching for definitive answers about transmission and prevention. But Americans already have such answers about a host of other greater perils to our health, and we'd be wiser to reacquaint ourselves with those and recommit to heeding them than to worry about our own imminent exposure to Ebola."

BRUNI: Right. I was trying to push back at some of the panic that we're seeing. You know, people who are all freaked out about being exposed to Ebola themselves and what that could mean. We don't yet know that that is going to be an issue for all but a very small number of people.

And I was making the point that there's all sorts of things we know everything about. You know, we know what good immunizations do. And yet we have a rising tide of people in this country who are resisting them. We know to wear sunscreen and stay out of the sun lest we get skin cancer. We ignore that.

So I was just using that moment to say we have answers to a lot of things. "We don't have answers to this one, but why don't we take the answers we have and deploy those and not get freaked out?

LEMON: According to the CDC, about 20,000 people a year die from complications from the flu in the U.S.

BRUNI: Correct.

LEMON: And sometimes a lot more than that. There's been one death due to Ebola.

BRUNI: Right. And 45 percent of Americans only who could have gotten one got a flu vaccine in the last...

LEMON: Do you think there's an overreaction? Because people are often -- and not often. People are pretty much always -- they fear the unknown more than the known.

BRUNI: Right, right. That's exactly what's going on. But because we don't know what to do in that one case, why don't -- if we're really interested in the bigger picture of protecting ourselves and behaving responsibly and being protected from the things that could hurt us, why don't we use the knowledge we have on those issues and diseases we do?

LEMON: Do you think it's equivalent to the panic that people had in the '80s and '90s about AIDS?

BRUNI: It's reminiscent of that, sure. It's very reminiscent. Because there, again, people didn't yet have all the knowledge and answers they came to have later on.

LEMON: So what do you think we should do? Do you think that the media is pushing this...

BRUNI: I think we're over-covering it to a certain degree, but I think now a lot of the coverage has moved in the direction it should, which is looking at how institutions have reacted and whether we've seen the competence that we need to see from our government and from our federal officials.

LEMON: But one has to wonder, you know, if the CDC is coming up with new guidelines this far into it, what in the heck is going on?

BRUNI: Yes. That's alarming in and of itself. And that's, I think, the story the media is more and more covering. Why are we getting new guidelines when this was raging for months and we knew it was going to come here? It was a matter of chance.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I have a cold and what we know is that you should do that instead of shaking your hand.

BRUNI: Thanks for protecting me.

LEMON: Thank you. Frank Bruni from the "New York Times."

When we come back tonight, breaking news. Superstar designer Oscar de la Renta, the man who dressed first ladies since Jackie Kennedy, has died at the age of 82. We remember him next.

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LEMON: Our breaking news tonight on CNN, the fashion world mourning the sudden death of designer Oscar de la Renta at the age of 82.

He was well-known for dressing first ladies from Jackie Kennedy to first lady Michelle Obama, who first wore one of his dresses just over a week ago. And of course, he was the man behind the spectacular wedding gown of Amal Clooney at her wedding to George Clooney just last month.

Joining me now on the phone is Krista Smith, CNN entertainment commentator. And here with me in New York in the studio is Eric Wilson, fashion news director of "In Style" magazine. So Eric, why is he such an important fashion icon?

ERIC WILSON, FASHION NEWS DIRECTOR, "IN STYLE": Well, I think Oscar de la Renta was the ultimate diplomat for American fashion. He was among the generation of designers in post-war America who really came out from the back rooms and put their own names on the label. He first worked for Elizabeth Arden, I'm sure you know. And bringing a bit of fashion sense to that house. But eventually he made his own name and he brought prestige to America.

LEMON: The story is that he went to the editor of "Vogue"...

WILSON: Diana Vreeland. Yes.

LEMON: And said, "What do I do? How do I make a name for myself?"

And she said go to Arden, because if you go to Dior, Dior won't promote you, but Arden will, because she's beauty.

WILSON: She's an American brand, and she needed a fashion label to make that brand sing. And that's what Oscar did so beautifully, was he brought fashion into a house that wasn't necessarily known for it.

LEMON: But he also put American fashion, if I'm correct, on par with European fashion, correct?

WILSON: Absolutely. Before Oscar, before Bill Blass, before Geoffrey Beene and that generation of American fashion. LEMON: Got you. You're taking me back now.

WILSON: We were talking about jeans here, like sportswear, very basic clothes. And people who copied what the Parisian couturiers were doing. Oscar was so great that he actually became the first American designer to run a couture house in Paris when he took over Balmain.

LEMON: Interesting. So Krista, from Jackie Kennedy, most recently to Amal Alamuddin, Ms. Clooney. Did Oscar de la Renta, was he really relevant over five decades? Was he still relevant even up until this day?

KRISTA SMITH, CNN ENTERTAINMENT COMMENTATOR (via phone): Absolutely. Just case in point, he just did the wedding of the year. I mean, the fact that Amal chose him, you know, to do a custom dress for her wedding to George Clooney that obviously was on -- you know, everyone saw it. The whole world, you know, took part and pored over those pictures, I think, is proof that he was relevant.

I mean, I also think, to Eric's point and what he created with -- you know, first with Jackie Kennedy and then all the other first ladies to follow. I mean, Hillary Clinton wore him. Laura Bush wore him. Betty Ford, Nancy Reagan.

And then basically, in Hollywood it was kind of -- he's dressed everybody in Hollywood. I mean, Cameron Diaz, Sandra Bullock, Nicole Kidman, Jennifer Hudson, it goes on and on. It was kind of like a moment that showed you arrived. You were going to wear Oscar de la Renta to the Oscars, to your premiere.

He -- he just knew how to dress a woman, and he knew what she wanted. Feminine lines. I mean, to me it's very synonymous with elegance and class. And Don, it feels like at some point, he dressed everyone in Hollywood.

LEMON: Yes, and I remember there were De la Renta designer jeans back in the '80s if I am correct. Weren't there?

WILSON: Certainly. In the '80s everyone was licensing a name for everything from jeans to automobiles.

LEMON: And he was all part of that. How did he embrace, Krista? Did he embrace the red carpet?

SMITH: Absolutely. I mean, you talk about relevance. I mean, an entire "Sex and the City" episode was dedicated to an Oscar de la Renta dress.

I mean, people -- you know, they revered this man. And I think he loved the red carpet.

And what I loved about him is he dressed all ages. So you have someone like Taylor Swift wore Oscar de la Renta. Oprah wore Oscar de la Renta. I mean, it was cross-generational. And that's the thing that's really incredible in a lifetime and in the career of fashion to accomplish that. Where, you know, you are so timeless that any generation, you know, it holds up.

LEMON: And Eric, did you have a favorite gown?

WILSON: Favorite gown of Oscar de la Renta? I would almost pick Michelle Dockery from the -- I believe the Grammy awards even earlier this year when she wore that beautiful silver sparkling dress. It was really a modern version of a ball gown. He could really interpret these dresses even up until this year in a fresh way.

LEMON: What happens to the de la Renta house now?

WILSON: Well, as we know, Peter Copping, who was the designer at Nina Ricci until this season, was recently hired to come and work with Oscar as his hand-picked successor in a way. He was going to train under him and work under him for the coming seasons. But I think with this new development we'll expect him to take on a bigger responsibility there.

LEMON: And once you -- if someone has to take over the de la Renta house, Krista, what happens? Do they do it in the style of de la Renta or do they try to break out on their own and, you know, go in their own direction?

SMITH: I doubt that that would happen, you know, immediately. I mean, obviously, a different designer brings something different to it. But I don't think that they would veer from the essence of de la Renta, which is that classic, iconic, stylish, elegant -- you know, his designs. I doubt that it would veer far from that.

LEMON: Yes. I'm having -- I'm having a moment here. Black turtleneck designer in the '80s, who only wore black turtlenecks.

WILSON: Halston.

SMITH: That's Halston.

LEMON: And Halston because now -- you used to be able to, quite honestly, if you were lucky, find a Halston, you know, gown or dress somewhere in a vintage store if you were lucky. And then now they're worth thousands and thousands of dollars. So no one ever took over the Halston house and changed the name. A Halston dress is a Halston dress is a Halston dress, correct?

SMITH: Well also, I mean, Don...

LEMON: Go ahead. Go ahead.

SMITH: I would just say he was -- Oscar is -- he was a true gentleman.

LEMON: Yes.

SMITH: And he just understood a woman's figure and he also understood kind of early on, saying that time in fashion, he understood how a smart, like stylish society women wanted to dress.

LEMON: Yes. So he will go down with Halston, with the legends of fashion, correct?

WILSON: And hopefully a name that actually survives into the future, which I really think with Oscar, it could happen.

LEMON: Eric Wilson and Krista Smith. Thank you very much. Appreciate both of you.

SMITH: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Coming up, new information on the shooting of Michael Brown. What will it mean for a possible indictment of Officer Darren Wilson? We're going to have a live report from Ferguson when we come right back.

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