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Police: Indiana Man May Be Serial Killer; Is 21-day Incubation Period Long Enough?; Ebola Patient's Family Lawyers Up

Aired October 20, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I understand we have the Gary mayor on the phone right now, Karen Freeman? Do we have Mayor Freeman? Mayor Freeman, welcome.

MAYOR, KAREN FREEMAN WILSON, GARY INDIANA (via telephone): Thank you. This is Karen Freeman Wilson, how are you today?

COSTELLO: I'm good. Thank you so much for being with us. I really appreciate it. Tell us what you know about this suspect at the moment.

WILSON: We know that on Friday the police of Hammond, Indiana, began investigating a Hammond murder that led them to a suspect in Gary, Indiana. After taking that person into custody and questioning him, we learned that there were six bodies that he was able to lead Gary and Hammond police to the location of. They were in abandoned buildings in Gary, Indiana, actually four separate locations. And we also know that this individual continues to provide information of possible locations, not just in Gary, but in other parts of northwest Indiana.

COSTELLO: Did police pressure him to spill what he knew or did he voluntarily give this information to authorities?

WILSON: To my knowledge, this information is being given voluntarily. It is an ongoing investigation and both Gary and Hammond as well as the Lake County Police Department and the Lake County Coroner's Office as well as the Lake County Prosecutor's Office are all involved in this process.

COSTELLO: I guess what I was asking you is he seems eager to tell police where these bodies are located. Is that your sense?

WILSON: Well, he certainly was cooperative.

COSTELLO: What do you mean by that?

WILSON: Meaning that he led them to the location of this body -- whether he was eager or not I'm not in a position to say that.

COSTELLO: Was there any connection between these women? Any reason why he would target these women?

WILSON: At this juncture, we are not aware of a connection between the women. In fact, only two of them have been identified Anneth Jones as well as Africa Hardy, who was the victim in Hammond. The Lake County Coroner's Office is still working to identify the other individuals.

COSTELLO: So correct me if I'm wrong, but three bodies found in Gary. Do you fear more bodies will be found in your community?

WILSON: There were actually six bodies found in Gary. There were three during the course of the night early into Sunday morning and there have been three more found during the course of last evening into early this morning.

COSTELLO: And all we know about this man is that he's 43 years old. Was he employed by someone? Do we know any information about this man?

WILSON: We don't have any information about his employment. We do know that he was a convicted sex offender out of Texas. We do know he also had at least one conviction, certainly not in the sex offender category, out of Lake County, Indiana which is the county that Gary and Hammond are located in.

COSTELLO: Do we know what brought him to Indiana?

WILSON: We do not.

COSTELLO: But you expect more victims?

WILSON: Well, we have located six, leaving a total of seven in all. We do know he continues to talk to the police and it is quite possible that there may be more victims.

COSTELLO: Mayor Freeman-Wilson, thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate it.

WILSON: Well, thank you for the inquiry.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the newsroom, the 21-day incubation period is now over for 43 people in Dallas. They're no longer under quarantine, but some lawmakers are asking, is that really time enough? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: 43 people in the Dallas area can get back to their normal lives. They have been cleared of Ebola after having contact with Thomas Eric Duncan before he was diagnosed with the deadly diseases. The Liberian man as you know later died in that Dallas hospital. But not everyone is in the clear. The Dallas mayor says 120 people are still being monitored for Ebola symptoms.

And the man President Obama has tapped to lead the nation's response to the Ebola crisis begins his new job Wednesday. Ron Klain has been criticized because he doesn't have a medical or health care background. One GOP senator slammed him as a political operative.

And after having 19 cases, including seven deaths, Nigeria says it is now Ebola-free. It's the second West African nation with that distinction following Senegal. The World Health Organization calls the Nigerian government response to containing the virus a spectacular success story.

Let's talk about that incubation period now. 21 days is the incubation period for those who come into contact with an Ebola carrier but one Democratic lawmaker says that's just not long enough.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

REP. TULSI GABBARD (D), HAWAII: The 21-day incubation period these studies showed do not -- it's not 100 percent coverage that shows that people do not get sick after that incubation period. There are studies that show that people are getting sick after that 21-day incubation period which is why we need to follow the World Health Organization's standard that they have in place which is a 42-day period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. So let's talk about that. I'm joined now by CNN medical analyst Dr. Alexander van Tulleken and Charles Haas, he heads the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Drexel University. Welcome to both of you.

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning. I want to address my first question to you, Mr. Haas, because the congresswoman was talking about a study that you put out from Drexel. Is she right? Does the incubation period need to be longer?

DR. CHARLES HAAS, DREXEL UNIVERSITY: Well, based on the prior outbreaks, there's up to a 12 percent chance of people becoming ill even after a 21-day incubation period.

COSTELLO: So just to be clear, should it be longer than 21 days? Should it be 31 days? Should it be 42 days?

HAAS: Well, I think it probably should be longer, but the other thing is they're doing more aggressive monitoring of the people under quarantine rather than just looking at fever. So it may very well be by doing appropriate blood tests and looking for early signs of potential Ebola infection, 21 days would be sufficient. There needs to be more of a dialogue between the scientific and medical community and the policymakers on deciding what that appropriate level should be.

COSTELLO: Actually, Dr. van Tulleken and I were talking about that in the break. So go ahead, ask away.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes, I'm just interested in this idea that the CDC's original guidance on 21 days was really based on research done many years -- decades ago now and possibly on primate studies as well. What you've done has been presumably undertaken of your own volition, am I right? HAAS: That is correct.

VAN TULLEKEN: And do you know how the CDC had reacted to it and if they are considering revising this period?

HAAS: I have not heard anything from CDC or for any of the feds for that matter so I'm not sure what the response and the reaction is.

COSTELLO: Does that surprise you that you haven't heard anything?

HAAS: Well, they're certainly busy fighting fires and I understand the manpower issues, but it does surprise me a bit, yes.

VAN TULLEKEN: And it's very interesting that we've heard so often the idea of the precautionary principle, this idea that we're based on the science and yet when you look at the science they're using, it's quite old. And they've had many -- I mean now they're very busy. They've had months to review this take and say what would be the best quarantine period.

And I think the assumption we've all been making is that they will have looked at this number. And when Charles's data came out, I think a lot of people were really shocked at where the original number came from and just how many cases might be missed.

COSTELLO: So is it safe to say that this just all makes it confusing when everybody's not on the same page and nobody communicates with one another? It just seems odd to me.

VAN TULLEKEN: Yes, I think so. I mean that's certainly what you don't want in the middle of an outbreak or the middle of an epidemic is to be revising your quarantine period and I think -- and Dr. Haas can speak to this better than me but there's a real tradeoff between the costs of quarantining people and the benefits of quarantining people. But we may not have that part yet.

HAAS: And I would also add to that, I think a message needs to be communicated that we don't live in a risk-free society. And so we need to decide what an appropriate level of confidence is when we make that decision.

COSTELLO: Ok. I'd like to move on to another topic and talk about this travel ban because a number of lawmakers, dozens of them actually, say there should be a travel ban put into place. Yet you look at Nigeria, it's Ebola-free, it never put a travel ban into place. What should we take away from that, Dr. Haas?

HAAS: Well, again, I think there's a cost/benefit relationship that needs to be looked at. I know over in the E.U. there have been serious examinations even of the screening for fever and the cost/benefit is certainly not clear that we wouldn't lose more than we might gain by travel ban.

COSTELLO: He's talking about cost benefits but I'm not sure people can relate to that at this moment. VAN TULLEKEN: It's such an interesting thing because the benefits of

the travel ban seem obvious. It seems like if you can stop the visas we'll stop people who are likely to have Ebola coming in. We've seen from other epidemics that that just doesn't work. There are lots of other people who are potentially exposed who can get in through other routes either from those countries or who get exposed from citizens of those countries where they don't have travel bans and then travel to America.

We also know that a U.S. citizen brought Ebola to Nigeria so we know that travel bans will affect U.S. citizens as well. We do have a significant economic investment in this region thriving and a travel ban visa restriction will prevent that, it will slow travel, it slows trade. Enormous economic costs for all -- what I would say no benefit -- at best you could say only a very, very small hard to demonstrate benefit and the false sense of security is something we'd really have to worry about.

COSTELLO: Ok. So I'm going to pose this question to both of you.

HAAS: I agree with that.

COSTELLO: You agree with that. Good, good, good. So this last question, everybody's saying we have an Ebola crisis in this country. Yet out of 319 million people, only two people, health care workers, have contracted Ebola from a man who came from Liberia. Is there really an Ebola crisis in this country, Dr. Haas?

HAAS: I would phrase it more as an Ebola communication crisis. I think, you know, messaging has to give the public an understanding that we don't know all the answers. Here's what we know, here's what we don't know.

COSTELLO: Alexander?

VAN TULLEKEN: I think we have an Ebola crisis in as much as we've demonstrated that the current agencies that are meant to protect us don't do a very good job of that but the real crisis is in West Africa and we are currently not doing anything like enough to roll back the disease there and that we should be really terrified of. So if you're worried about Ebola, spend your money in West Africa. Doctors without Borders and lots of other charities are doing great work there.

HAAS: Agreed.

COSTELLO: Great. Thanks to both of you, Dr. Alexander van Tulleken and Dr. Charles Haas. Thanks to both of you -- I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, one of the most high-profile attorneys in the country now getting involved with the Ebola outbreak in Texas. Amber Vinson, the nurse that now has Ebola, her family has hired a lawyer. Why? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: With their daughter fighting for her life, the parents of Amber Vinson, the second Dallas nurse to contract Ebola, are lawyering up big time. Yes, they've hired an attorney. They're calling on this guy, Billy Martin, to help them out. He's one of the host high- profile attorneys in the entire country. You might recognize him from his time representing the likes of NFL quarterback Michael Vick, actor Wesley Snipes, Senator Larry Craig and even the mother of Monica Lewinsky.

Defense attorney and CNN legal analyst Paul Callan joins me now. Wow, Billy Martin -- these are middle-class people. How can they afford Billy Martin?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is a very high profile case, potentially and maybe they're thinking about starting a libel, slander, invasion of privacy case on behalf of their daughter in which case possibly Billy Martin's taking it on a contingency basis. His fee could be a third of what he recovers. Of course we don't know. He might be taking it pro bono because he believes in the issues that are presented. And let's face it, there might be a little publicity with the case.

COSTELLO: I'm just wondering because, like if I had to hire an attorney to protect the reputation of my daughter, Billy Martin wouldn't pop into my head. I would like go to the yellow pages maybe and call a local attorney. But they're not doing that.

CALLAN: No and I think because of the high-profile nature of this case they probably are getting pretty sophisticated advice about who the top legal players are and Billy Martin is one of the top lawyers in the country. He shows up in big cases all the time. Good Washington connections so I can't challenge their choice of counsel.

COSTELLO: They did put out a statement. This is from Amber Vinson's family. They said quote, "To be clear, in no way was Amber careless prior to or after her exposure to Mr. Thomas Eric Duncan. She has not and would not knowingly expose herself or anyone else." Now, why are they putting out that statement? Are they afraid for their daughter's career as a nurse?

CALLAN: Well, it sounds to me like they're positioning themselves to bring a libel suit, a slander suit. This is a suit for defamation for damage to her reputation. You know, the press, a lot of individuals have been saying she was incompetent, why did she get on a -- why did she travel in public after having been exposed to him?

So she may feel that her reputation has been so damaged by this that she has a cause of action. So it sounds to me like they're positioning not to defend her but for her to sue somebody for damaging her reputation.

COSTELLO: And I'm just -- I'm just trying to figure who that might be. Because the Dallas hospital hasn't said anything negative about Amber Vinson, correct? As far as I know.

CALLAN: No, they haven't. But I will tell you a lot of these cases are brought against the press, Carol, heaven forbid. And there have been a lot of statements that are sort of made in the heat of hysteria about people and the way they acted and now I don't know what was -- of course not at CNN.

COSTELLO: Not from me.

CALLAN: But at other less careful news outlet there is might have been really damaging, inaccurate things said about her which would give her the right to sue for libel or slander depending upon how it was disseminated?

COSTELLO: Although I will say in defense of my professional that it's reasonable to ask why a nurse, a trained professional, when she's not feeling well would get on a plane even though she called the CDC to clear it. Maybe common sense would say "Maybe I shouldn't fly."

CALLAN: Well, I don't think we can expect a local nurse to be smarter than the CDC or maybe, you know, maybe that's not such a high standard anymore, the CDC in terms of the criticism that they've suffered lately. But certainly she acted reasonably if she called them up and they said "We're not going to tell you not get on the plane." I think that's what the reporting has been.

But you know, there could be -- and I don't want to say that they're going to sue here. There's a second reason that you might put a lawyer in place. If somebody has been infected with Ebola as a result of contact with her or maybe many people, we don't know at this point, she may be just positioning herself with a top-notch advocate to get ready because there will be suits against her and the hospital and maybe the CDC as well. So she's just getting good representation.

COSTELLO: And just another thought that just popped into my head. Since schools were closed after she visited Ohio right, and the bridal shop was closed and other businesses were affected, might they sue?

CALLAN: That would be a real stretch, I think, for them to sue.

COSTELLO: You never know, Paul.

CALLAN: I think the only people who could potentially sue would be people who were infected and also I think that she might have a cause of action for damage to her reputation by false statements made about her publicly.

COSTELLO: Yes. And lest we forget, she did attend to a person with Ebola and that takes a certain amount of bravery.

CALLAN: Yes, she did.

COSTELLO: Paul Callan, thank you so much.

CALLAN: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

COSTELLO: I hope you're not eating. A man in Canada found a real mouse in his coffee. The bigger problem was that he nearly finished the whole cup first. I have to warn you, some of these images aren't for the squeamish so put down your food. CNN's Jeanne Moos has more. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When you go to McDonald's and order coffee you expect the house blend, not the mouse blend.

RON MURRAY, MCDONALD'S CUSTOMER: It was a dead mouse.

MOOS: Ron Murray picked up his coffee at the drive through in Fredericton, Canada. He sipped it for hours and then, as usual, removed the lid for the last gulp.

MURRAY: When I took the lid off, there was a little bit of surprise in the coffee cup.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god, there's a mouse in my coffee is what he says and I'm like it's real, he's not joking.

MOOS: Ron's co-workers vouched for him. But online the theories flew. A co-worker dropped the dead mouse into his cup as a joke. Or maybe it's possible the mouse has been in there since the cup factory.

(on camera): Some folks are wondering how the guy could have sipped his entire cup of coffee without feeling the weight of the mouse sloshing around inside like a forgotten tea bag.

(voice over): "I smell a rat" said someone. "What a crock, a pun" -- referring to Ray Kroc, McDonald's founder.

Skeptics kept citing the infamous fingertip found in Wendy's chili hoax. This woman went to jail for four years for pretending she found a finger in her chili, but authorities traced it back to an associate of her husbands who had severed it in an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is everyone's worst fear -- opening up a fast food meal and finding a human finger where the dead mouse should be.

MOOS: As for the mouse in the coffee, Ron's co-workers were rock solid supporting him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless I had been there and watched Ron drunk that whole coffee to that last drop I would have been like "You're lying."

MOOS: Ron hasn't expressed any intention of suing. What does he want from McDonald's?

MURRAY: I'd like to know how the mouse got in the cup of coffee.

MOOS: the restaurant was inspected by authorities and found to be pest free. McDonald's says Ron has now provided us with a product sample and foreign object. They're sending it to a third party lab, but thus far we do not believe the foreign object originated in the restaurant.

(on camera): The moral of the story? Before drinking, check under the lid to make sure there's not a waterlogged McMouse or, as one jokester nicknamed him, Maxwell Mouse, good the last dropping. Ron remains philosophical.

MURRAY: I'm here. I'm in better shape than the mouse.

MOOS (voice over): That mouse looks a little under-caffeinated.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Man, this is a good day to start my diet. Thanks, Jeanne Moos.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" starts now.