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Does "NY Times" Report on Michael Brown Mean No Indictment; Ebola Orphans Go Unclaimed Due to Fear; New Tip: Eric Frein at Poconos Mountains; Michelle Knight Forgives Castro

Aired October 20, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. Bottom of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Pretty stunning report from "The New York Times" says Michael Brown's blood showed up inside of the car of the police officer who ultimately shot him and killed him. It's evidence, according to authorities, of a struggle. But could the report also be a sign that Officer Darren Wilson will not be indicted? The killing of this unarmed teenager ignited weeks of protests in Ferguson, Missouri. And "The News York Times" says the FBI found blood on Wilson's gun, uniform, and inside door panel of his patrol unit. Let me quote the "Times," "Officer Wilson told the authorities that Mr. Brown punched and scratched him repeatedly leaving swelling on his face and cuts on his neck." Wilson shot Brown to death later outside of the car.

So joining me now, HLN legal analyst, Joey Jackson; and also here, CNN legal analyst, Mark O'Mara.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let's just begin with you, Joey.

My first question is why? Why are we hearing about these leaks from this police officer for the first time in "The New York Times"? Are they preparing the public for something major like a non-indictment?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a fabulous question, and one I can't answer. Why? Because you and I both know about grand juries. The integrity of proceedings, they are secretive, and they are that way for a reason, so you can present the evidence and present the information to that panel. Remember, there are 12 people on that panel and the standard is low. Probable cause to believe that a crime was committed and that Darren Wilson committed it. Why this information is being released to us in addition to them is the open question.

BALDWIN: Mark, same question to you. Why?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Since it happened, I keep saying we should not do this piecemeal because it allows speculation and emotions to get higher. This came from the FBI investigation and not from the grand jury. I would be happy if the grand jury is doing it as quietly as it should be. Once again someone on, let's say, Officer Wilson's behalf is trying to get out information to support his side. It just is one small piece of the puzzle. We don't know the picture yet. Everyone is going to use it to justify their side or their emotion and it's dangerous for us to let it out piecemeal.

BALDWIN: I think it's worth reminding viewers because there are a lot of pieces of different eyewitnesses of what they saw and didn't see.

Dorian Johnson -- this is important. Let me remind all of you, because it contradicts the officer's account inside this patrol car. This was Michael Brown's friend. This is what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIAN JOHNSON, WITNESS: He reached up the window with his left arm. He grabbed onto my friend Big Mike's throat, and tried to pull him in the vehicle. My friend, Big Mike, very angrily is trying to pull away from the officer. And the officer now is struggling with trying to hold a grip on my friend, Big Mike, as he was trying to pull away.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Did Michael try to get the weapon that the police officer had?

JOHNSON: No, sir. That's incorrect. At no point in time did they struggle over the weapon because the weapon was already drawn on us. We were more trying to get out of the way of the angle or aim of the weapon besides going toward the weapon because it was drawn on us already.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Mark O'Mara, if there was a struggle within this patrol car and this officer felt endangered and fearful of his life, that's one snippet of this. The next part, which was not answered in "The New York Times" piece, was then why this officer shot this young unarmed man multiple times. Would that fear of life justify this excessive force outside of the car?

O'MARA: The struggle inside the car would certainly justify the use of force inside the car. If anyone was going for that gun or even just attacking an officer physically, he's allowed to respond with force, up to and including deadly force, so the shots inside the car. Now you get to the point of the shots outside of the car. They justify that he's supposed to apprehend him. But, look, you can't just chase somebody down even if they are fleeing from you and shoot them. The law has changed regarding fleeing felons. But once and if Michael Brown turned on him, then it could renew that fear, fear totally justified by the fighting at the car.

BALDWIN: Joey, jump in.

JACKSON: It depends. There are three questions that will be answered here. One is, what was imminent threat outside? What was the imminence of the threat? And, number two, was that fear, if there was such a threat, reasonable on behalf of the officer? Then number three, was the response proportionate to any threat that was posed? If you're the prosecution, what you're going to argue is that these are two separate instances. Inside the car justifies one thing in terms of my fear if I'm the officer. What I do outside justifies another completely. But if you are defense, you'll argue it's one occurrence, leading to my client's Darren Wilson's state of mind. He was in fear at the time he fired those shots.

But, critical, you showed us Dorian Johnson's testimony. Mark, I'm sure, will agree with this. At any trial you'll have conflicting testimony, conflicting evidence, and a variety of eyewitness accounts. But you don't have to rely upon eyewitnesses exclusively because you have forensic and other evidence that is going to corroborate what you said happens or disprove what you said happens.

BALDWIN: Let me throw one more piece of sound into this. The "Times" says Wilson's gun went off twice, which matches what these two construction workers said about the shooting last month. They weren't from Ferguson, so they weren't -- not that anyone would have a certain view of either individual involved, but it seems they didn't.

Here's a portion of a story from our correspondent, Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The unidentified person recording this video captured the witnesses' reaction during the final moments of the shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

(SHOOTING)

KAYE: Both men were contractors working in the area. They did not want to be identified. The man on the left, in the pink shirt, told CNN they heard one gunshot and then, about 30 seconds later, a second shot. He says he saw Michael Brown staggering. Then he said Brown put his hands up and said, OK, OK, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: How would those details be germane?

JACKSON: I mean, they're very germane. That's a set of eyewitnesses indicating that the person shot Michael Brown -- was not posing any threat at all and was surrendering and therefore takes away the need to use excessive force. It provides a piece of the puzzle where there are many pieces that need to fit in. Some witnesses perhaps would support Darren Wilson's account. Other witnesses will be very damning and contrary to that account. And so when you match all of the evidence together along with the ballistics, forensics, and also gunpowder residue. Clearly, there probably will be, based upon internally in that car, the shooting, but what was the distance of the other shots fired. And that will play into the reasonableness of the officer's actions and whether what he did was lawful or unlawful. That's the question. BALDWIN: Joey Jackson, thank you so much, sir.

JACKSON: Pleasure, always, always.

BALDWIN: Mark O'Mara, we appreciate both of you.

Keeping a close eye on that out of Ferguson, Missouri.

Another possible sighting of alleged cop killer, Eric Frein. Police calling it highly credible. Listen, we have seen this before. He's been spotted multiple times and continues to evade police. We'll look at the skills of this self-trained survivalist.

Plus, thousands of children orphaned by Ebola. Their parents lost their lives to the virus. What's worse, no one wants to claim them because they're fearful for their own lives. We'll share that story next coming up on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: An abundance of caution. I know we've been hearing a lot of that lately as cities and schools try to allay Ebola fears. For some, it's not abundant, but too much caution. They call it "fearbola." In Maine, one school district is instructing a teacher to stay home for three weeks because she went to a convention in Dallas. No other link. In Mississippi, a principal is taking a week-long paid vacation because he visited Zambia. Zero Ebola patients there, 3,000 miles from the Ebola hot zone. And our affiliates are reporting that the University of Georgia has canceled this speaker's visit because she's traveling from Monrovia, Liberia. She's not sick, but Liberia, as you know, is one of the three nations hit hardest by this deadly virus.

All of this brings me to a true crisis born from the fears of Ebola. It's nearly as tragic as the loss of life to this disease -- children, orphaned by it. In Liberia, for example, they are getting turned away by their own relatives.

Here is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is her favorite doll. It was supposed to be his cousin's but she let him have it because. She says she likes it when he's happy. They are the last remaining orphans. Their parents died last month and none of the extended family is willing to claim them. They're too afraid. And they're not the only ones.

(SINGING)

ELBAGIR: At the Christ Kingdom Harvest Church, Pastor John Ghartey says a prayer for safe keeping. This community, like many others, has lost friends and loved ones to the disease.

21-year-old Hawa's (ph) mother sang here. She died last month leaving Hawa (ph) to care for her four brothers and sister and her own 1-year- old daughter.

JOHN GHARTEY, PASTOR, CHRIST KINGDOM HARVEST CHURCH: She was laying in the room dead and all of the children, six of them, were on the porch lying down on the ground.

ELBAGIR: The congregation was initially afraid and unwilling to have the children live among them, even after they showed no symptoms of Ebola. But the pastor rallied, preaching, organizing collections, even just holding the children's hands, a rare gesture in these fearful times, to convince his congregation to care.

GHARTEY: They are separating from the family that has come down with the virus. Nobody wants to touch or interact.

ELBAGIR: The World Health Organization believes 4,500 people have died from Ebola but numbers don't tell the full story.

SHELDON YETT, UNICEF: This virus has impact much greater than direct number of people immediately impacted. For each mother, there's a child. For each father, there's a child.

ELBAGIR: The United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF, estimates that many children are stigmatized by their communities but some, like Pastor Ghartey, are working to change that.

GHARTEY: You come to my house, they sit in my living room with my family. They are like a family to us now.

ELBAGIR: At the orphanage, they wait for families willing to welcome them into their homes. If that happens, he says, he'll let her take the doll so she doesn't forget him.

Nima Elbagir, CNN, Monrovia, Liberia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: All those children. Nima, thank you so much for telling their stories.

Ahead here on CNN, an important new clue in this hunt for the alleged cop killer, Eric Frein. A woman says she's seen him, mud on his face, rifle in his hand. How has he survived the nights in the cold woods in the Poconos? We'll talk live to a survivalist about how he's managed to stay alive.

And also Michelle Knight, held captive, suffering years of torture, and now she's not only forgiving her captor, that monster, Ariel Castro, but she has a message for the people who did not look for her. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Eric Frein, this alleged cop killing survivalist, might have made a huge mistake. This woman in central Pennsylvania said she saw Eric Frein this past Friday night southwest of the grid where the police mounted this concerted month-long manhunt. And this tip is a good one according to authorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. COL. GEORGE BIVENS, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE: He was reported in the area of the Poconos Mountain East High School. An individual's description was consistent with Frein and he was observed carrying a rifle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This Frein guy is an odd one. He has a thing for dressing up like a soldier. He's been known to smoke Serbian cigarettes and he's alluded capture since September 12th when he allegedly shot two police officers, killing one out of state barracks.

On the phone now is survivalist, Cody Lundin. He's the former co-host of "Dual Survival" on the Discovery Channel.

Cody Lundin, welcome.

CODY LUNDIN, SURVIVALIST (voice-over): Hi, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Eric Frein may have allowed himself to be seen, as apparently he has a few times before, he's been spotted. What is this most recent account? What does it sound like to you? Might it be a sign of desperation? Is he getting careless?

LUNDIN: He supposedly planned this for two years. If you plan something for two years, you obviously have a heads-up. He's also in his own backyard, unlike people that are looking for him. He has advantages and he's being highly motivated because he'll either be shot or arrested when they find him. With that motivation, with that knowledge and background of terrain and that much advanced planning -- we didn't do that for the Iraq War so he definitely has an advantage. We'll see what happens after this.

BALDWIN: So this is his home turf. He knows it. Still, it's getting cold. How is he surviving the nights in the Poconos? And what is he eating?

LUNDIN: I would say since he's had advance preparation, he's eating food he stashed or stored or has stolen or is stealing. He's prepared. He has stashes out there of food, gear, sleeping bags, whatever he needs. If you have two years and you hung out with me, we could build an entire town in the woods. That's a lot of time to plan this out. He could have anything, from rat holes to places to hang out for weeks at a time and be unseen.

BALDWIN: With these multiple stashes and with this town here, this guy could be prepared to hide a long time.

LUNDIN: Yeah, he could. Again, he's been sighted so he'll probably get caught. They always do get caught. But I want to impress upon the fact that when you're on your home turf -- you can look at that in Iraq and look at that in Vietnam -- they have the advantage. He knows his backyard. Will he get caught? Yes, I'm sure he'll get caught. Does he have a few advantages? Yes, he does. The main thing being two years of prep time.

BALDWIN: This made me think of my producer and I'm remembering the Olympic Park bomber, Eric Robert Rudolph. He hid out in the forests of North Carolina for five years before they got him. He was apprehended looking for food in a dumpster. I know you said he could be prepared to the hills with food but could that be an Achilles' heel down the road? He gets hungry.

LUNDIN: Yes. The Achilles' heel is people are looking for him and that puts a lot of stress. I used to live illegally in the woods in a brush shelter for two years. We're not on the air, right, Brooke?

BALDWIN: Right. Not on the air. You didn't tell anyone that.

(LAUGHTER)

LUNDIN: I know what it's like to have that psychological stress of not wanting to be found and it's a pain in the butt, frankly. That will tip him over the edge more than anything is the psychological stress, which is tearing the body down with adrenaline, about he's being pursued and looked for and he's a wanted man, and eventually they'll find him.

BALDWIN: If he's not -- just back on the food issue because I'm fascinated by your experience -- if he has stashes, would that mean he wouldn't have to have a fire? It's cold at night. You would think there would be fires and smoke. They would find him.

LUNDIN: You don't need a fire if you have proper clothing. I just got done with an outdoor survival course yesterday. With proper clothing and things, sleeping bags, you don't need to have fire whatsoever. With LED lights under ground, you don't need all that stuff. If he has canned food or stuff that doesn't need cooking, he could be good to go for several weeks or months.

BALDWIN: Cody Lundin, thank you for coming on. And your story about living in the woods illegally, safe with me. No problems.

(LAUGHTER)

Thank you very much for your expertise, your perspective.

Coming up next, Cleveland kidnapping survivor, Michelle Knight, with a special message for the man that tortured her for a decade. That is next.

Also ahead, a possible serial killer. This is huge. They now have found bodies of seven women. Seven. And now not only are police admitting there could be more victims, this could go back 20 years. Hear how a confession may break open this spree that goes back to 1994.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Michelle Knight says forgives the man that tortured her for more than a decade and held her hostage in Cleveland, Ohio. She spoke out at a domestic violence fundraiser Sunday night. 33-year-old Knight shared her story of survival and faith. Remember this story? Knight was one of the three women who had been beaten, raped and held captive for years inside Ariel Castro's Cleveland home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE KNIGHT, FORMER KIDNAPPING AND HOSTAGE VICTIM: For me, it's holding onto hatred that would control your life. If you hold onto it, you're going to condemn your life to hell. And I choose to forgive that person for all of the wrongdoing that they have done to me. And for the people that didn't look for me, I forgive them, too, because it wasn't their fault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Our Cleveland affiliate, WKYC, reports Knight changed her first name to Lillie.