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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Quarantine Over for Ebola Victim's Fiancee; Protests in Ferguson Over New Forensic Details; U.S. Drops Supplies; Football Hazing Scandal in New Jersey; Hammond Press Conference

Aired October 20, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think there's varying degrees of how restrictive they are so some of them cannot, for example, get on a commercial airliner. Some of them cannot go to restaurants or places where people congregate in public. But others there is less restriction.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: So the question that still looms large over this story, for so many people, Elizabeth, is that Louise, who Anderson had an exclusive interview with, who shared that apartment with her son, her young son, and two adult nephews. They shared the apartment for at least four days with Thomas Eric Duncan as he was sick, as he had, you know, diarrhea and vomiting.

And those people did not get sick and yet two nurses clad from head- to-toe almost in protective gear did. How is it that random?

COHEN: You know, Ashleigh, actually it's not so random. It's -- you know, yes, I think you nailed it. They were clad from head-to-toe almost. Well, almost doesn't count. If there's skin showing, if there's a chance of exposure, you know, that's an opportunity for the virus to sort of make its mark. So that's one thing to remember.

Another thing to remember is that nurses in the hospital, they clean up. I mean, that's one of the things that nurses do. And so Ebola patients put out tremendous amounts of bodily fluids and it's the nurses who are the ones who have to clean that up and their outfits are probably splattered with all sorts of stuff. But the family, we were told, Louise said that he sort of took care of himself when he was at home and sick. He took care of his own mess, basically.

BANFIELD: It's an awful story no matter how you look at it.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you. You've been doing great work on this.

COHEN: Thank you.

BANFIELD: For the whole network. The amount of time that you spent in Dallas.

I want to take us now to another top story that we're working on, the shooting death of unarmed teenager Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. Brand-new details emerging about the actual evidence that's being presented to that grand jury hearing the case. Now they are the ones that are going to decide whether or not to indict the Police Officer Darren Wilson in this shooting and those new details seem, on their surface, to back up Officer Wilson's story.

More on that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Turning now to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. Physical evidence reportedly is backing up Officer Darren Wilson's account of his initial confrontation with the unarmed teenager.

According to the "New York Times," Officer Wilson told investigators that he feared for his life when the teenager allegedly pinned him inside his police vehicle and he says tried to grab his gun. The paper said forensic tests show that the gun went off twice inside the vehicle, striking Michael Brown once in the arm.

Sara Sidner joins us from Ferguson, Missouri, right now.

So what's the reaction in the community to what "The Times" is reporting?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, Ashleigh, there's a lot of people looking at this article and this has actually in the evening brought more protesters out but there is a discrepancy here between what you're hearing, of course, from the police and what some of the witnesses, including Dorian Johnson, the friend of Michael Brown, is saying.

And he's saying basically the opposite of what Wilson is saying. Yes, there was a struggle at the car. But he's saying that it was Wilson that was the aggressor and this is where the stories divert as to why Wilson ended up using his firearm on Michael Brown. Certainly this community is still on edge. There have been protests

every single day since August 9th when Michael Brown, an unarmed teenager, was killed by Officer Darren Wilson. The facts of how it all went down are in dispute. Some of the witnesses say some things. You're seeing this forensic evidence now coming out, according to "The New York Times."

It certainly put another little bit of edge into this community worried about what is going to happen when the grand jury comes back whether or not they indict -- Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Our Sara Sidner live for us in Ferguson, thank you for that.

With me now criminal defense attorney Midwin Charles and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

Joey, first to you. A lot of people are saying that this physical evidence of blood in the vehicle backs up Officer Wilson's story. Sure. It might. But it also might not.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, here's the point, Ashleigh. It's critical and it's relevant information, for sure, because we want to know exactly what happened and anybody evaluating this right now, the grand jury wants to know all the facts. But the critical inquiry is not only in the car because that leaves a lot of questions also.

Who was the aggressor, who was not the aggressor? There was blood on the gun. Is their DNA on the gun which would be suggestive of grabbing for the gun. And so --

BANFIELD: Or blood splatter from being shot in the arm at close range. Right?

JACKSON: One hundred percent. And so but all of it is relevant, but the critical inquiry notwithstanding that is about what's the next occurrence? What happened outside that car? Was, at the time the shot was fired, that resulted in the death of Michael Brown, was that officer in imminent fear of his life, number one? Did he act reasonably, number two? And number three, was the force that was used proportionate to the threat, if any, that was posed at the time?

And those are the questions, Ashleigh, that are going to lead either to an indictment or not.

BANFIELD: And Midwin, that's critical. Everybody is calling these two separate instances that they're really not. Because if you're looking at whether someone is in fear for his life, the instance right before matters. But if you're looking at someone who witnesses say was putting up his hands.

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

BANFIELD: Was he putting up his hands? Was he going for the officer, as one witness sort of suggested? It's critical it all happens in seconds.

CHARLES: It does happen all in seconds but Joey is right. You have to look at the totality of circumstances in which this officer is viewing this. Because at the end of the day, if the police officer is saying he feared for his life, we have to look at it from his perspective. There was six bullets discharged. So as I've said before when I've commented on this case, this police officer is going to have to account for each and every bullet.

BANFIELD: And can I just -- for people out there who think, wow, six bullets, that's a lot, for a police officer, it's pop, pop, pop -- I mean, they discharge very quickly in succession trying to hit their target.

JACKSON: They do, Ashleigh. But you're taught as a police officer to shoot until the threat has been terminated. So any force outside of that --

BANFIELD: Not shoot one, assess, shoot one, assess.

JACKSON: Right. You're not. I mean, they call it a double tap. Law enforcement officials can tell you what they do, but ultimately you just don't shoot wildly. You shoot and then when the threat is terminated, that's when you stop shooting. And so you have to account for the, you know, nature of the shots Midwin was talking about.

BANFIELD: Guys, the fleeing felon doctrine suggests that if somebody -- and let's just say for the benefit of Officer Wilson right now that there was an attack, that his face was scratched as "The Times" reports, that his neck was scratched and that there was a struggle for the gun and he had to shoot twice.

Let's just say that his account is accurate. Well then you've got a guy who is 6 foot something and he's a fleeing felon. And the doctrine used to say you can shoot him down no matter what.

JACKSON: Used to say.

CHARLES: Used to say. Yes. Used to say.

BANFIELD: But it still says if he represents a threat. Now doesn't a person like that still represent a threat if he's spinning towards you?

CHARLES: I can't see how he can, particularly if his hands were up, which is the universal sign of surrender, and just about every witness has corroborated that that's exactly what Michael Brown has done. So you have to always ask that question. From the police officer's perspective, where is the threat?

BANFIELD: Yes.

CHARLES: And the threat has to be reasonable. And, you know, people kind of skip over that word.

BANFIELD: Right.

CHARLES: But it matters. Is it reasonable? What would an ordinary prudent person under the same circumstances do?

BANFIELD: Yes.

CHARLES: That is the reasonable standard here.

BANFIELD: And everyone should just jump out of knowing everything what it's like to be in a gun struggle. And assume you know from Michael Brown's perspective or this officer's perspective exactly what they were thinking.

JACKSON: It's a fair point.

BANFIELD: That is impossible.

JACKSON: Absolutely. It's a split second decision. The Supreme Court has talked about that issue.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, Midwin Charles, good that you're here. You're both great on this, by the way. Thank you. Appreciate it.

CHARLES: Thank you.

BANFIELD: I want to take you now to the battle against ISIS. There's evidence that U.S.-led airstrikes may actually be having a significant impact on the enemy terrorists and that's not something you're used to hearing. Details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: This just in, some brand-new video out of Chicago. Yes, that's the commander in chief, President Barack Obama. And yes, he's voting. Election day is two weeks from tomorrow but the president voted at the Martin Luther King Community Center there in Chicago. It's early voting and he's showing that you can early vote.

The president has been on the campaign trail over the weekend pushing people to vote early. Not often. Just early.

Always like those pictures. Who do you suppose he's voting for? We know.

On now to the war with ISIS. It looks like some of those American-led air strikes might just be having a significant impact. Pictures are amazing. Those plumes of smoke. Those jets overhead. The Syrian opposition group says ISIS has apparently taken a heavy hit recently and that the bodies of at least 70 ISIS fighters were dropped off at a Syrian hospital. Again, bodies. And a U.S. air drop of supplies to the Kurdish fighters seems to be reinforcing that fight to hold that critical border town of Kobani from the ISIS forces who are trying desperately to take it. Nick Paton Walsh is near the Turkey/Syrian border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We understand from those inside Kobani that those air drops were from three C-130 aircraft. Twenty-seven bundles in total landed in the city center, to some degree, but also to the west as well, containing medical supplies. One doctor expressing relief that that ton of medicine can finally mean he could treat people he hadn't been able to treat for weeks. The hospital there, makeshift as it is, so over stretched by the fighting. And also one fighter saying that the crates there had delivered ammunition, but also M-16 rifles.

We understand from those inside, their local leader (INAUDIBLE) saying he hopes there will be more. He doesn't know the precise time and he won't specify exactly what weapons they've got, but said they were the right appropriate type. They had been looking for anti-tank weaponry they've told us in the past few days.

But the decision by the United States to sort of directly intervene, airdropping that aid, may not sit so well with their Turkish NATO ally, whose territory I'm standing upon. Barack Obama telephoned his Turkish counterpart last night to discuss their intention to make this air drop. It's unclear how (INAUDIBLE) immediately responded to that. But, today, to further complicate and even speed up perhaps the Kurdish defense of this city, Turkey has said it will allow Peshmerga fighters to cross from Iraqi Kurdistan, through their territory, to here to assist in the fight for Kobani. Those inside say they haven't arrived yet, and yet I think they would welcome them, it's clear to say. They say that ISIS still control about a third of the city at this stage.

But Turkey, while it's considering those Syrian Kurds fighting for Kobani to be allied to terrorists, the Kurds, who they have had a very erratic relations with here inside Turkey, are, of course, now saying that they never wanted Kobani to fall in the first place.

Since we've been standing here today, we have seen one, perhaps two air strikes land and the same press release in which (INAUDIBLE) spoke of the air drop mentioned that a total of 135 air strikes have been brought to bear on Kobani since the fighting started here. The U.S. intervening so directly at this stage. The Kurds saying they still have a tough fight potentially ahead of them but Washington now very much has their back.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, near Kobani.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Thank you, Nick. Some great reporting from the zone, as we call it.

Now back to a story that we've been following for you. A hazing scandal that effectively shut down the whole football season for a New Jersey high school. And now "The New York Times" has uncovered some brand-new information on the alleged victims and exactly what happened inside that locker room. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You know, teenagers often adopt to a code of silence when it comes to reporting wrongdoing. Being labeled a snitch can someone be a worse fate than the incident itself. And the case in point, the canceled football season at Sayreville War Memorial High School in Sayreville, New Jersey. Someone revealed a locker room secret, a series of them, in fact, that allegedly involves sexually and physically abusive hazing. Yet according to "The New York Times," the alleged victims, all underclassmen, dismissed the incidents as no big deal. And now some students are upset, and in the words of "The Times," "searching for the snitches" who killed the football season. "The Times" quoted one girl who tweeted, quote, "if freshmen thought we hated them before, we sure hate them now," end quote. This is an incredibly sensitive topic because everyone involved is a minor.

I want to bring in Nate Schweber, who shares the by-line on this story in yesterday's "New York Times."

Nate, I want to just get from your sense, having talked to a lot of these kids on location, at the site, kids actually directly affected, witnesses who saw what happened in that locker room, are they dialing back the severity of this because of the backlash, or do you get the sense that the reporting was more than the incident? NATE SCHWEBER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think that kids were very, very

freaked out by the amount of scrutiny and the severity of the aftermath, the football season being canceled, classmates of their being arrested, one kid reportedly losing an athletic scholarship. And there's a dichotomy between - as far as what happened. Some of the kids that it happened to did say, I didn't think this was a big deal. I thought it was part of just being on the team. But kids -- other kids who watched this happen said, when I watched what happened, I was freaked out. I thought this was nasty. I thought something really bad was happening here. So it --

BANFIELD: And there is this notion, or at least to the younger classmate, it does feel like there's a bit of a witch hunt. They want to know who did this. They want to know who ended football in this winning, you know, high school, et cetera.

SCHWEBER: I sat in a living room with a player on the freshman team next to his father. He showed me text messages on his cell phone, getting messages saying, did you snitch and him writing back, I didn't snitch, I swear to God, writing to other friends, you don't think I snitched, did you, question mark, five of them.

BANFIELD: They're scared.

SCHWEBER: Yes.

BANFIELD: You know, a lot of times in domestic violence, a woman who's hit by her husband and is bruised will say, well, it wasn't that bad, because in retrospect everything else that could happen afterwards is so much worse. Is that what your sense is from talking to the - not only the witnesses but the kids themselves that had this happen?

SCHWEBER: Of the -- from the kids that had this happen, it's hard to tell. Yes, they do say it wasn't that bad. Of course, they're saying that in the aftermath of the season being canceled, their teammates being arrested -

BANFIELD: A snowball effect.

SCHWEBER: Yes, so -

BANFIELD: Can I just ask you, it's very difficult on television, especially at 12 noon, you know, on the West Coast it's the morning, but what happened matters. I mean this was not towel snapping against the butt. They pinned these kids down, according to the witnesses, and they also -- you know, I need to interrupt this for a moment, I apologize. I need to interrupt this because we have a news conference that's going on. I believe it's in Gary, Indiana, regarding this serial killer story that's been breaking. It's the Hammond Police officials, apparently. Let's listen in.

CHIEF JOHN D. DOUGHTY, HAMMOND, INDIANA, POLICE: Executed in the city of Gary on the afternoon of Saturday, October 18th. During the subsequent interrogation of Mr. Van (ph), he admitted his involvement in the Hammond incident and had expressed an interest in notifying police of other criminal incidents he was involved with. This included initially describing and then helping detectives locate three other victims in the city of Gary. Three other female victims have been subsequently located in the city of Gary with the assistance of Mr. Van, bringing the total number of victims, including ours, to seven.

Beginning with locations where they were found, the six Gary victims, 413 East 43rd Avenue, the victim identified as 35-year-old Marysville resident Anith Jones. The second one, 1800 East 19th Avenue, the victim identified as 28-year-old Gary resident Teria Baty (ph). The third one, 2200 Massachusetts, victim unidentified African-American female. The fourth one, 4300 Connecticut, victim identified as 36- year-old Gary resident Christine Williams (ph). And two victims found together, 400 East 43rd Avenue, two unidentified African-American females. All the victims were found in Gary except the one, obviously, at Motel 6 in the city of Hammond.

During his initial arrest in the city of Gary, Mr. Van told Hammond Police officers at the scene that he had messed up by not committing -- by committing the crime in Hammond and was surprised at how quickly he was located after the incident. The six Gary incidents of suspected homicide are currently being investigated for possible future charges. Murder charges are being sought by the Hammond Police today at the Lake County prosecutor's office in Crown Point for the Hammond incident. Motel 6 in Hammond has cooperated with Hammond in the past involving criminal investigations, many of them involving backpage.com, and is considered a reputable business in the city of Hammond.

I would like to thank every Hammond police officer that has been involved in this investigation. I'm very proud of each and every one of them. I would like to especially thank Captain Zekiel Hanahosa (ph) for his leadership in the criminal investigation division.

I'll offer to take a couple questions. But as you can imagine, we have a lot on our plate. The investigations of at least six are ongoing. It is possible that the investigation will lead to more victims. So we have to be careful about what we say at this point. So I'll take at least a couple.

QUESTION: Did the suspect resist at all?

DOUGHTY: Did not. He was cooperative with officers.

QUESTION: Did he say why he wished to cooperate? Why did he volunteer this information?

DOUGHTY: He made statements to officers that I cannot reveal at this time. He was looking for a type of deal with the prosecution. I won't be specific about that answer though.

QUESTION: Chief, (INAUDIBLE) idea of the span of time we're dealing with for these (INAUDIBLE)?

DOUGHTY: It could go back as far as 20 years, based on some statements we have. And that's yet to be corroborated.

QUESTION: In more than one state, chief? DOUGHTY: We don't know that. Right now we're only talking about what happened in the state of Indiana, you know, per Mr. Van.

QUESTION: Do you know what the time frame is, what happened in Indiana?

DOUGHTY: I do not.

QUESTION: Was Afrika Hardy pregnant?

DOUGHTY: I do not know that.

QUESTION: Did he claim to have murdered someone in 1994 and '95 in Indiana?

DOUGHTY: He's claimed that crimes he's committed may go back that far in the state of Indiana.

QUESTION: Chief, is there any consideration to bringing in the FBI if this goes to Illinois or Texas or the possibility thereof?

DOUGHTY: I don't have any indication right now that it is going to other states. So if that happened, I guess the question would be appropriate at that time.

QUESTION: What can you tell us about these women? Were they ever reported missing before? Were they sex workers? Were they on drugs? What can you tell us about the victims?

DOUGHTY: I don't know the specifics of all the victims at this time and I don't want to catalog anybody in particular at this time and I want to be sensitive to their families as well.

QUESTION: Chief, have you been in contact with him before? Any arrests prior to this with Hammond or even Gary that you guys know of?

DOUGHTY: Not that I'm a - not that I'm aware of through the city of Hammond.

QUESTION: Well, you talk about going back 20 years. Is that for these seven - or, I mean, these six other bodies in Gary or is that possibly other ones? Are any of these six that you found so far, do they go back 20 years?

DOUGHTY: We believe the ones we found are more recent.

QUESTION: Can you even (INAUDIBLE) just how recent they might be?

DOUGHTY Not exactly, no.

QUESTION: I'm sure you don't want to go too far with this, but did he articulate why he has killed (INAUDIBLE)?

DOUGHTY: No. No. Not - not -- I don't have a specific reason he does this. I don't know at this time.

QUESTION: Were any of these women reported missing ever?

DOUGHTY: We do have missing reports on several of them, I believe.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.