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Don Lemon Tonight

Protest in New York About An Opera; Legendary "Post" Editor Ben Bradlee Dead at 93; Ashuko Mukpo Declared Free Of Virus; Missouri Governor Announces Independent Commission For Ferguson Shooting; Jeffrey Fowle Released From North Korean Prison

Aired October 21, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Tonight, true crime. What if everything we believe about serial killers is wrong? From Ted Bundy to Jeffrey Dahmer to David Berkowitz to John Wayne Gacy. Even in the movies like Psycho and silence of the lambs, white men, loners, but now two cases are changing what we think we know.

Seven women dead in Indiana. Two in Virginia. The suspects in each case, African-American. Well tonight, I'm going to ask the experts what is going on. And I'm going to talk to the heartbroken mother of one of the victims.

Plus a dramatic recovery of an Ebola victim. How he beat the deadly disease.

Also, tensions is heating of in Ferguson. What happens if the officer who shot Michael Brown isn't indicted. We are going to have a live report.

And the Hollywood star everyone is talking about tonight. Do you recognize her?

We've got a lot to get to this evening. And I want to begin, you know, with the very latest on what may be the case of a serial killer in Indiana. CNN's Poppy Harlow live for us in Hammond, Indiana.

So Poppy, in addition to Afrika Hardy, police have found six more women's body in abandoned homes. Do authorities believe there are more bodies elsewhere?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Don.

They think there might be. I mean this has been absolutely traumatizing to this community in Gary, Indiana. What you have is a man, 43-year-old Darren Vann who confessed to strangling, 19-year-old, Afrika Hardy to death in the Motel 6 room here Friday. And then led police, actually went in the squad car with them from abandoned home to abandoned home where they found six other bodies of female victims age 19 to 36 that he has police say confessed to killing. All of them. They are concerned that he may killed more. He hasn't said yes I did.

But given what they found. They are concerned. They're scouring the thousand of abandoned homes in Gary and Hammond, Indiana.

We went out with them on cadaver dogs on their search today. Listen to what they told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Why did you come here to search for possibly more body?

SGT. WILLIAM FAZEKAS, GARY POLICE DEPARTMENT: We just want to cover all of the bases. Because we just want to make sure this gentleman didn't leave anything unturned. In other word there could be, potentially more body. So we don't know for sure. So we are just checking.

HARLOW: One of the big concerns is all the abandoned homes. The body, most are found in abandoned homes.

FAZEKAS: Yes. Unfortunately, the, the individual that committed these crimes, his MO was to put people in abandoned, the dead women in abandoned houses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: This is a man with a long criminal history, dating back at least a decade. We know now from police documents that in 2004, Don, he was arrested and thrown in jail for actually trying to light his girlfriend on fire. With the a gasoline tank and lighter. Then in 2009, he was convicted of aggravated rape in Texas. He was in jail for five years for that. Still though, Texas authorities list his risk rating as low -- Don.

LEMON: Interesting. Poppy, are police saying why Darren Vann is giving them so much information about where the bodies are?

HARLOW: It is a great question. I mean, why would he do that? You know he says, Don, that he was really surprised that he must have "messed up" in the last murder of have Afrika Hardy for police to find him quickly. So, is he trying to strike a deal with prosecutors.

You have the death penalty as an option for murder conviction here in Indiana. Does he want a deal? We simply don't know. He doesn't have legal representation at this point. But from what the authorities here are telling us, he is pouring out information as I said. Even going in the squad car with them to these homes.

At this point, all day they did not find any other bodies. They are going to be back out there tomorrow with those cadaver dogs seeing if there are other body. Just one important point because I know you have the mother of Afrika Hardy, one of the victims coming on to talk to you. This is a man who the sheriff department here says they checked on once, Don. One time, in September, just to make sure that he was living where he was supposed to be living. They said that's all that is required by law. What they also told us is that they can't make arbitrary checks

because there are just so many sex offenders that, they can't just check on someone randomly. It begs the question, is the system working?

LEMON: Good question. Poppy Harlow, Hammond, Indiana for us this evening. Thank you, Poppy.

19-year-old Afrika Hardy had recently moved to Indian from Colorado after leaving in Aurora for five years with their mother, Laurie Townsend. And Laurie joins me now.

Laurie, I can only imagine listening to the report. I'm sorry for your loss. It must be incredibly hard to listen to that. And you are extremely brave to be talking with me here tonight. How are you doing and your family?

LAURIE TOWNSEND, AFRIKA HARDY'S MOTHER: Well, Don, we are hanging in as much as possible. The outpouring of love from the community, friends, family, people that I have never, never imagined just reaching out. You know, we are just hanging on as best as possible. Yes.

LEMON: As you are listening to Poppy Harlow's report there. they said they can only check on someone once. Basically, saying they can't harass someone. Do you think that things could have been handled differently by authorities?

TOWNSEND: The justice system the way it is, it is right now, it's -- there is a lot to be said for that. I think if he was a registered offender in the state of Indiana, that should have been checked on more frequently as well as all the other, you know, people who are registered. Just to check on them once. That's seems null and void, actually.

You know, I want to know why, why is he spilling his guts out? Why is he -- why is he telling so much information? Is he thinking that's going to give him a bargain, a better bargain?

LEMON: A deal. When it comes time.

TOWNSEND: A deal.

LEMON: For prosecution. Here is what, and according -- this is according to the police chief. Police chief said, it was just something he wanted to do. That's all I can say why he was telling them and showing them where so many bodies were. But can we get back to your daughter, please, because Afrika had left home in Colorado only three months ago. So tell also about your daughter and what was she like?

TOWNSEND: So my daughter, she was your normal 19-year-old girl. And she didn't move back to Indiana because we really had, we had no ties in Indiana. She moved back to Chicago. But my daughter was, she was -- she was a unique individual. She can walk into a room and just light it up with her smile and her laugh and just her presence. Afrika never met a stranger. She loved everybody. And no, that was part of her problem. She was a little naive on trusting people. And she was talented. She can sing.

LEMON: There is video of her singing. We understand that she was quite a wonderful singer.

TOWNSEND: Yes. She could write you a poem. She could write a short story. She had -- her mind just sponged everything. She was a friend to everybody, you know. I am reading on her, you know, her facebook wall. And just people, you know messaging me that Afrika touched me, you know, people are saying she touched me. She helped me, you know, she was there for me when I didn't have anybody else.

LEMON: Did she ever, Ms. Townsend, did she ever mention anything was wrong the last time -- when was the last time you spoke to her? Did she say anything was wrong?

TOWNSEND: The last time I spoke to her was Thursday evening. She was messaging me and sending me pictures. Afrika loved to take pictures. But, she never, her three months out there never said that anything was wrong. She never gave me any inclination that she was doing this or, think about doing this, or anything like that.

LEMON: Did you know about this, backpage.com because that is where authorities are saying that she met him on this, on backpage.com?

TOWNSEND: See, I, I had no idea that, you know, Afrika was linking up with this other girl and doing this. I had no idea. Otherwise, you know, I -- you know, you tell your children, you know don't, don't do that. You know, but, and -- they're going to do whatever, whatever they decide that they want to do regardless.

LEMON: Yes.

TOWNSEND: I had no idea. That's not the way, you know, I raised Afrika. You know, she wasn't raised up like that.

LEMON: Well, Laurie Townsend you are again a again are a brave woman. And our thoughts are with your family and we wish you well. Thank you so much for sharing your daughter's story here on CNN. OK.

TOWNSEND: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

When we come right back, what does the evidence tell us in the Indiana case? And can it put a serial killer behind bars?

Plus, miracle recovery how an NBC cameraman beat Ebola.

And who is this woman? Why is everyone talking about her tonight? We have the inside story coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Are the murders in Indiana the work of a serial killer? And what does the evidence tell us?

I'm joined by Kathy Reichs, a forensic anthropologist and author of "Bones Never Lie." Pat Brown is also with us, a criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport" inside the mind of serial killers. It is a very interested to talk to you about the cases.

So first to you, Kathy. Darren Vann is suspected in the deaths of at least seven women in northwest Indiana. How will the police attempt to forensically link him to all these women, even though he is showing them where they are, they still need to link him, right?

KATHY REICHS, AUTHOR, "ONES NEVER LIE" Well, yes. Just because he is confessing to these murders, that's not enough. When you g o to court you will have to have physical evidence tying him to those victims or at least tying him to the crime scenes so or where the bodies are located.

They're going to be looking for anything they can fine. Of course, that would be great if they could find bodily fluids so that they can get DNA from him. They're going to be looking for perhaps fibers from his clothing or from his home. They're going to be looking perhaps in his home for something that's come from the victim. Anything that is going to physically tie him to those women.

LEMON: And so Pat, I have to ask you this because I have seen a lot on social media. And some people have been writing about it. The assumption is that it is rare to have a black serial killer, is that correct though?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, if that myth has been around. I can't even, decades. And I think it all started with, people like Ted Bundy who got so much publicity, the white serial killer. A lot of FBI early interviews with white serial killers. And so, I think black serial killers simply just didn't get much publicity. That's one reason.

Another reason is simply that in the past African-Americans have been, there has been larger amounts in the city. Inner city where there is more crime. And therefore, the investigations just weren't as complete as the they could be. And -- and so they just didn't get the play. And that's really what it comes done to. There is really no gene, racial gene that makes you a serial killer. Simple fact is if you go to any place in world you can find a serial killer of any culture.

LEMON: And since we are looking at suspect now, Jesse Matthew in Virginia. Also, this case. And you know, when you think about Atlanta child murders as well. That was, considered a serial killer who was African-American.

Kathy, what exactly is a definition of serial killer?

REICHS: Well, someone it is someone who kills in series. It's not a spree killer who kills a lot of people at one time. But it is someone -- there is an interval between one victim and the next victim. LEMON: So the spree killer is someone who kills -- here is the thing,

a spree killer is someone, they make a succession of people but they do it and then the stop. A serial killer does it over time. Is that correct?

REICHS: Yes. There are number of different labels that are put on mass killings, whether they occur over a period of time or one incident. Pat could probably answer that question better than I can. I tend to work with the victims once the victims are found. That's when the forensic anthropologist comes into play. Because often, if these victims were not found right away, which is the case in Virginia, for example, where the remains are now skeletonized or of these women have been lying in these abandoned homes for any period of time. There is going to be decomposition, there is going to be -- I hate to talk about this, just following on that poor mother, Afrika's mother, but there is going to scavenging, if there are rats or is there are dogs, there are cats, or anything like that.

So these bodies could be in very bad condition. And then you have got to go to skeletal indicators or dental record if you are fortunate enough to know who your victim might be, then you can pull dental records or DNA.

LEMON: So Kathy, let me jump in here since you mentioned her. I mean, I cannot believe this soon after to the strength that it takes, you know, for a family member, especially a mother to come on national television and talk about her daughter. It is unbelievable that she could do that. Since you said you speak with victims and you deal with victims all the time.

REICHS: Right. I deal with the families of the victims, yes. And she was so poised and so brave. And so non-bitter about the whole situation. It was really very touching.

LEMON: Pat, let's talk about Hannah Graham now. Investigators are still trying to determine whether the skull and bones that were found on Saturday in an abandoned home are those of Hannah Graham. She vanished on September 13th from Virginia. How long will it take for forensic results to come back and determine whether it is Hannah?

BROWN: Well, that varies from every jurisdiction what they have to do to determine that. I think, you know, the chances of it being her are very, very high at this point. So I think we are all expecting that they're going to come back and be her. but you know, we could be surprised.

But you know. I want to go back to one thing we are talking about, with the, Afrika's mother. And she was saying, you know, talking about this guy being out on the street. And yet he was already a convicted felon. He was convicted rapist and a violent rapist and yet he got a low risk put on him, which is absolutely outrageous because a violent rapist is a serial rapist. He will do it again. Just like no such thing as a person that jumps out and rapes and kills a woman just for the fun of it and doesn't think about doing it again. That's why when you find one woman dead in the ditch and it is not a boyfriend, you have a serial killer out there whether you know what he has done or not.

So, you know, one of the problems we have in our justice system is recognizing that a violent psychopath who already committed this kind of crime is somebody you can't monitor. You can't put him back in society and say let me see. What you going to show up on a Sunday and say, hey, how are you doing? How is the barbecue? I mean, he is having a barbecue. When in you are a violent rapist and violent serial killer, it doesn't mean you are killing 24-hours a day and they're going to catch you.

LEMON: And Pat, I got to go. Thank you, Pat Brown. Thank you, Kathy Reichs. I really appreciate it.

REICHS: Thank you.

LEMON: Breaking news tonight. And it is a great news for the NBC cameraman who contracted Ebola in Liberia. Ashuko Mukpo has been declared free of the virus and will be allowed to leave in Nebraska Hospital tomorrow.

I want to check in now with CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

Elizabeth, this is good news. What do we know about Ashuko Mukpo's recovery?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know what we know, Don, is that he had a negative test. That was done by the CDC. Likely he actually had two negative tests. But they don't want to discharge you from the hospital until they, you know, had two a couple days apart. And he wasn't in the hospital for long, only about two weeks. And it really is testimony to how quickly he caught this disease. He caught it, he took his temperature and said, whoa. Something is wrong here. He got treatment early. He got a blood transfusion from Dr. Kent Brantly early. And he also got an experimental drug, (INAUDIBLE), early. As you can tell. I keep saying early that it such a crucial part to surviving Ebola.

LEMON: Does this give hope, though, Elizabeth, to the other two Dallas nurses being treated right now for Ebola.

COHEN: Right. I think it is especially gives hope to Nina Pham. And actually her condition was upgraded from fair to good today. She is at the NIH. She also caught her own disease very early. Had one high temperature reading. And, she was, you know, she got herself to the hospital within an hour and a half, was admitted. And we know that she also got a blood transfusion from, again, Dr. Kent Brantly.

You know, we know a little bit less about Amber Vinson. She, you know, there are reports that she had been feeling sick a couple days. But then there were reports that wasn't true. We don't know anything about the treatment that she its getting. There are sort of more question marks for her care.

LEMON: And quickly, Elizabeth. Tell us about these new travel rules. Anyone coming to the U.S. from Liberia, Sierra Leone or Guinea, they're going to have to go through one of five main airports now, is that right?

COHEN: Right. So there are five airports where they do extra special screening for people from West Africa. So at JFK, Newark, O'Hare, Atlanta and Dulles. They take your temperature. They ask you questions about whether you feel ill. And so, they don't want people flying into any other airport beside these five.

And so, they are saying that you have got to fly into one of these five if you originated in West Africa. Now, how are they going to police, this is another question. Are they going to be looking back carefully at everyone's passports. But they want to make sure that if you have come from West Africa, that you are getting the special screening.

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much. Elizabeth Cohen.

COHEN: Thanks.

LEMON: Up next, a live update from Ferguson. Missouri's governor is taking action, but will it be enough to calm the situation if officer Darren Wilson is not indicted?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back.

As tension rise at Ferguson, Missouri, that state's governor today announced the creation of an independent commission, but will it calm unrest over the shooting death of Michael Brown by police officer Darren Wilson.

CNN's Sara Sidner live in Ferguson for us this evening.

So Sara, more than 70 days after a protest, the governor spoke out today to address concerns there. What did he have to say?

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he talked about putting together this independent commission that he said would be called the Ferguson commission. Several people would be appointed to that commission. And he talked about the three things that commission was supposed to do.

Number one that there would be a big study that was independent to look at underlying causes both economic and social causes of the unrest that has permeated through Ferguson over time. He also talked about, basically, that the commission would be able to address each of those when it comes to law enforcement when it comes to education, when it comes to poverty and jobs. And then lastly, that it would have to put those recommendations together and try to solve those problems.

You know, the governor made no bones about what he sees as a racial divide. And some of the issues here, the underlying issues here that he sees. Where unfairness seems to permeate the community as well. And he talked about his thoughts on what black families go through and what families with police members go through. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JAY NIXON (D), MISSOURI: I think of the mother of an African- American teenager as she kisses him goodbye each morning. Hands him his backpack and watches him head off to school. Knowing that he might never come home again. She lives with that fear every day.

I think about the wife of a cop. As she kisses her husband goodbye. Hands him a cup of coffee watches him drive off to work knowing he might never come home again. She lives with that fear every day.

That is the world we live in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: That's what we are hear from many side of this. He was trying to touch on both sides of this particular situation here. But what he said that upset people in the protesting part out community, is that this commission will not have anything to do with looking at an independent look at the actual investigation into what happened when officer Darren Wilson shot and killed Michael Brown. He said that investigation is ongoing. It is separate. And this commission will have nothing to do with that - Don.

LEMON: The criticism is that this commission really has no teeth there, and, so, what, I want few know what you are hearing from the community, though, Sara. What happens if Darren Wilson is not indicted?

SIDNER: You know, we are hearing a couple of things. A lot of the protesters that we have spoken with throughout these many weeks. We are now in the 74th day of protests that have gone on every single day since August 9th. What some people are telling us and these are quotes. This place is going to blow. We are going to try to shut it down if we do not get the, the decision that we want.

There are also people in the community who are out protesting on a nightly basis who say we are going to be peaceful. But there is going to be a reaction. There is going to be a big peaceful protest. So, there are two divergent idea on what should happen. But certainly there is concern that things are going to get worse before better, Don.

LEMON: Sarah Sidner for us in Ferguson, Missouri. Sara, thank you.

I want to talk about the situation in Ferguson with Dana Loesch, the author of "hands off of my gun, defeating the plot to disarm America." It is quite a cover. And this book, this gun is bigger than you, girl.

I want to ask you about this because you are from St. Louis, right? And you have been following the situation closely in Ferguson.

DANA LOESCH, AUTHOR, HANDS OFF MY GUN: Yes.

LEMON: What happens if the officer is not indicted? LOESCH: I'm concerned for relations in my city. I lived in downtown

St. Louis. I didn't live in the 'burbs. I didn't live down the county. I lived, you know, I can see the arch from my backyard. I lived five blocks over from where the shooting took place on Shaw. I was just down the highway from Ferguson the I have relatives who still live in Ferguson. My best friend lives in the Shaw neighborhood.

So I am really concerned. Because this is, has been, I think tension in St. Louis has been building for a long time. And if they're going to have an investigation, as to what caused it. We need to looking at the leaders. We need how to look at state leaders. We need to look at the leaders in Missouri district one, my district.

Jay Nixon, I mean, it is fine. He is going to create a commission. Where is Jay Nixon been?

LEMON: Where he has been? That's been the criticism. I think you already know, I worked at KTV out there. I lived there. You are right about the leadership. And you are right there has been a divide in St. Louis in that area for quite some time. Take some time to get over.

This, your new book again, it is called "hand off my gun." Does this, you know, we saw the police officers there, many said they were over militarized. Is this a case, you believed for, are you concerned, should ask you about the, police state?

LOESCH: Yes, absolutely.

LEMON: In your state?

LOESCH: I have been super critical of the police state. And I have been super critical of this particular situation in that state of Missouri since 2009. Let me take you become to 2009. So that is when you had Missouri highway patrol. The same department that was involved with keeping the peace and the investigation after the Michael Brown shooting.

They created report with Jay Nixon. Missouri governor Jay Nixon's name at the top of the report. And they were going after individuals who, for a political dissenters, people who work near peaceful protesters, libertarians, conservatives, tea partiers, if you will. And they were identifying them as potential domestic terrorists.

Now, it was a problem then in 2009. And I had a problem with it because these were (INAUDIBLE). They were talking about people with whom I agree. But, I also have a problem with it and a lot of it in the Ferguson community. I have a problem with militarized police in St. Louis city.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, don't go anywhere. We are going to continue to talk about that and we are going to talk, really take a whole another turn here. Because we are going to talk about an a- Lister you may, may not recognize. But you should. Her story when we come back. Dana is going to talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A lot to talk about tonight from unrest in Ferguson to an uproar over a certain Hollywood actress. Van Jones is here with me and now along with Dana Loesch.

So Van, thanks for joining us. We are talking to Dana who she grew up in St. Louis. So, (INAUDIBLE), you and I spent time in Ferguson. What is your take on what Dana just said?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it is funny. I think, good people on the left and right really agree that, it is overly militarized police response made things worse. And it is not appropriate in our country.

But worse than that, I was really, really disappointed in how the Governor Nixon come out. I thought he was going to say something helpful. He put what is ultimately a toothless, phony baloney commission that is going to study the problem, the issue. The really issue where has he been. The local prosecutors have thrown this case to a grand jury which is never din the cases. The grand jury hasn't even been charged. They never even told the grand jury what they want. That never happens. They are kicking the can down the road. Gross prosecutorial misconduct.

LEMON: I tell you what never happen. Mark your calendar because you and Dana agree on something.

LOESCH: Where is Jay Nixon? Jay Nixon is -- he is a wallflower. He is sort of just waiting kind of in the wings. He was trying to figure out. He could be somebody's VP running mate or keep it run for senator. He is, he is worried about his bottom line. And he does want to spend any political capital.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What do you guys think first? What should he have done barring saying, there is an indictment. I mean, what could he have done?

JONES: I will tell you. Very, very simple. When a local prosecutor, local case becomes this hot and the prosecutor is handling it right, he has the right under the constitution in his state to appoint a special prosecutor, not some crazy grand jury that nobody has heard of before in a case like this, but a special prosecutor.

The fact that he refused to do that is why you are going to have unrest. He can put together a phony baloney commission if he wants to. Nobody is watching us closely is going to be fooled by that. He should appoint a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this. He is not leading. He is not present. He is leaving the country. He is not getting away with the phony baloney commission.

LEMON: All right, I got you quickly.

LOESCH: And a quick point for this. You know, when we talk police state, we have to ask who is running the state. And there is the reason why it is a toothless commission. Because nobody at the state level wants to implicate themselves.

LEMON: All right. So completely switching gears here. And we wanted to get this in. Because everybody is talking about this. This is Renee Zellweger. She looks virtually in recognizable in one event in L.A. last night. So here she is. That was her, last night. When someone sent me the pictures, I said, that's not her. What do you think she did?

LOESCH: I don't know. I don't, I am really -- OK. This is where I am really bad. I am really bad in looking at somebody and trying to figure out whether or not they have plastic surgery. If I had to play that game, I'm going to lose it every single time. I will lose it all the time. I am horrible at this.

Is it Botox? I don't know. You know, she is, I think she, she wants to do what she wants to do. If she wants to do Botox or like (INAUDIBLE), I have no idea. I am looking at her face and I couldn't tell what she -- yes, she can do whatever she wants. Who are we to judge her? Who are we?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I completely agree with that because when the day comes I'm going to get as much work as possible. But not to the point where people don't recognize me.

JONES: I am concerned Don, because listen, some people -- have what's called an addiction to these kind of processes. I don't know if she does or not. It seem to be pretty extreme. But some people, they try to fix the outside to deal with pain on the inside. It doesn't work so they do it again. Do it again.

LEMON: I just thought that she was a beautiful lady.

JONES: $14 million of these procedures done in the United States this past year, $14 million. We only have got 300 million people in the country. So I think that I am concerned about this kind of stuff.

LEMON: Wikipedia says she is 45. Can you believe? Wikipedia says I am 5'6."

LOESCH: Yes, Wikipedia is not allowed as evidence in courts.

LEMON: OK. So listen. I want to ask you about new material that CNN obtained related to that brawl involving the Palin family back in September. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gray hair who wants to push my little, my 20- year-old sister. I'm going to defend my sister. She is 20 years old. A guy comes out of nowhere and pushes me on the ground. Takes me by my feet, in my dress, in my (INAUDIBLE) dress, in front of everybody, come on you, (bleep). Come on you (bleep). Get the (bleep) out of here. I don't know this guy. I have never seen this guy in my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Just to be clear here, no files charges were filed in association with this case. You have been a big defender, Dana, of Sarah Palin and her family. How can they get themselves -- listen, every family has --

LOESCH: I don't know. You are asking to somebody who grew up in the Ozarks, Don. I grew up in the Ozarks, you know. Come on here. I look at it like this. Did they win the fight? The story, is not that they lost the fight, is it? No, it is not.

LEMON: So. Does this affect the Palin, so-called Palin dynasty at all? Do you think, Van?

JONES: Well you, know I think it adds, more color to the same kind of you, know family dynamic problems that had you had. You know, Sarah Palin. People forget. She had the Democratic Party shaking in our boots in 2008. She came out and she gave that speech at the convention. That's hands down one of the best convention speeches not by a woman by anybody in 2008. People were running for the hills. And she somehow has managed to tear apart her own legacy both with bizarre tweets, weird stuff, and then the family drama. But, you know, I can understand why this young woman would be upset.

LEMON: Go ahead, Dana.

LOESCH: OK. I am confused because at first she was so stupid. That's what I heard from the left. She is so stupid. Katie Couric asks her a question as to what she reads for her news at the start of the day. So I've don't know what narrative it is. Either she is so stupid that she, you know, everybody made fun of her, from Megan McCain and John McCain or she was so -- and this -- and Van, that is the first time I heard anybody. We disagreed.

JONES: Now it can be told. Now it can be told.

LEMON: I have got to run. I have got to run because I have only an hour to make. But I do have to say, listen. I don't know if she is brilliant or whatever it is. but what I like about Sarah Palin, the one thing I like is that she will answer your question. She will answer every single question you ask. She will stand there, answer. And many politician don't do that. They go to talking points. She doesn't do that.

Thank you, Dana. Thank you very much, Van Jones. Appreciate it.

When we come right back a brutal terrorist attack, American killed. Now, the horrifying story is dramatized on the New York stage. And a lot of people are up in arms. The story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Sad news to report. Ben Bradlee, "Washington Post" editor immortalized in the movie all the president's men has died at 93. Here is a scene from the movie with Jason Robards playing Bradlee, and Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman playing Woodward and Bernstein. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much are you going to tell me about Deep Throat?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much do you need to know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you trust him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't do the reporting for my reporters which means I have to trust them. And I hate trusting anybody. Run that, baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The movie, incredible. Incredible man. Bradlee had been suffering from Alzheimer's disease for several years. President Barack Obama awarded Bradlee with the presidential medal of freedom just last year.

Meanwhile, in New York, protest over all things, of all things an opera. It tells the story of Leon Klinghoffer, a wheelchair bound Jewish-American cruise ship passenger who was murdered by Palestinian terrorists in 1985. Almost 30 years later the controversial opera, the death of Klinghoffer is at the metropolitan opera here in New York. And a lot of people are angry about it.

Joining me now Alan Dershowitz, the author of "Terror Tunnels" which is now available on e-books. And they are talking about what happened aboard the Achille Lauro, right? So you are self-describe an opera fanatic.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, TERROR TUNNELS: I love the opera. This is the fourth opera I have been through this season.

LEMON: At Lincoln center last night?

DERSHOWITZ: Of course, yes.

LEMON: And tell me your reaction?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, the opera is more propaganda than it is art. It presents a very sympathetic portrayal of Palestinian terrorists. Imagine if they've did an opera "the killing of Martin Luther King" which portrayed his killer or Ku Klux Klan in positive ways.

People would say that just shows bad judgment. That the men had the right to put this on. Nobody should interfere with their artistic freedom. But we have the right to protest their artistic judgment in putting it on because it really glorifies and helps explain and wants people to understand what would motivate somebody to kill an innocent man in a wheelchair.

And by the way, the opera doesn't make him killed because he is Jewish. They portray him as a loudmouth who is kind of putting down the Palestinian movement. He has killed for that reason.

LEMON: So you didn't like it.

DERSHOWITZ: I thought it was mediocre opera with some beautiful music, mostly portraying -- .

LEMON: It was insulting is what I am saying?

DERSHOWITZ: It was deeply offensive morally. He tries to create comparison between the holocaust and displacement of Palestinians. Between terrorists and their victims. You know, art has the right to be filled with mistakes.

LEMON: But doesn't mean you have to like it. The right to protest. So tell me about the audience's reaction during and after the --?

DERSHOWITZ: It was very good. Positive. In fact, much too enthusiastic. Standing ovations for an opera that was mediocre. I have been to the John Adams (ph) operas, and they don't get -- it doesn't get standing ovations. The audience was applauding the courage to put on this opera. Well, you know it doesn't take courage to offend Jews or to offend Israel. Let them put on an opera about portraying Mohamed in a negative way the way the cartoons did, that would take courage. This didn't take any courage.

LEMON: And outside?

DERSHOWITZ: Outside, there were protesters, but we didn't have to write to listen to protesters. (INAUDIBLE) Lincoln center blocked off the whole plaza. So the protesters were talking to an empty plaza. When I tried to go there and listen to them because I wanted to hear to both side. I was banned. And I was told I have to move way to the side or -- .

LEMON: A former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani among the people protesting against this.

I want to read something, this is from Elsa and Lisa Klinghoffer, it is Leon Klinghoffer's daughters wrote a letter in the play, though. I'm going to read the seeds. As terrorism cannot be rationalized, it cannot be understood, it can never be tolerated as a vehicle for political expression or grievance. Unfortunately, the death of Klinghoffer does all this and it sullies the memory of a fine principled sweet man in the process. Do you understand the family is feeling?

DERSHOWITZ: I do. And of course, calling it the death of Klinghoffer instead of the murder of Klinghoffer, kind of sanitizes it, almost legitimates. He doesn't have a heart attack. He was shot in the head, thrown overboard because he was Jewish. We don't even know what his views in Israel were. We know, he was killed because he was Jewish.

LEMON: Finally, mental moments. And many of them that are tough moments even slavery which I come from. You come from tradition of slavery as well. But it often inspires moments of art. DERSHOWITZ: Sure. But mostly centuries later. You know, again, the

killing of Martin Luther King, beheading of the people by ISIS, you don't want to see an opera justifying the killers and presenting the killers perspective is while the family is still alive. You know, they have the right to make the judgment. And we have the right to express our opinion about the judgment.

LEMON: Exactly. That's America.

DERSHOWITZ: That's right. But the Metropolitan opera didn't allow us to listen. They've constrained the marketplace of idea last night and that was wrong.

LEMON: Thank you, Alan Dershowitz.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate you joining me here.

When we come back one of the American prisoners free from North Korea. And a woman hopes her brother may be next. I'm going to talk with her exclusively.

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LEMON: American Jeffrey Fowle who was arrested in North Korea in May for leaving a bible at a club for foreign sailors has been released and is on his way home. Meanwhile, another American, Kenneth Bae is still in a North Korean labor camp. But his family is hopeful over today's news.

So joining me exclusively now is Terri Chung. She Kenneth Bae's sister.

Thank you for joining us this evening. Your brother Kenneth Bae still in jail while Jeffrey Fowle has been released. How are you feeling right now?

TERRI CHUNG, KENNETH BAE'S SISTER: Lots of mixed emotions. You know, happy for the Fowle family that they got to have the reunion. But you know, I couldn't help but really wish that Kenneth was also on the flight out of North Korea.

LEMON: No doubt. So I want you to take a look now at what your brother, Kenneth told CNN back in September.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH BAE, PRISONER IN NORTH KOREA: I am serving a 15-year sentence right now. And I have been going back and forth from hospital to the labor camp, the last year and a half. What I can say to my family and friends is to continue to pray for me and also to ask them to -- to, continue in the effort and getting me released here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Terri, when did you last hear from your brother? And can you update us about his condition?

CHUNG: You know that interview was the last time I heard any news of my brother. So it has been -- you know, almost a month and a half.

LEMON: And as you looked at the video a month and a half ago, could you tell anything about how he looked, had he lost weight? Did he seem healthy to you?

CHUNG: No he lost weight again after being in labor camp for several months. And as you know, he had been shuttled and forth between the labor camp and the hospital. And you know, his health has definitely been in decline. And we were concerned that despite his poor health that he was back in the labor camp again.

LEMON: Before the interview, how were you receiving updates about his health?

CHUNG: Through the Swedish embassy in Pyongyang, who is able, who tries very hard, but you know has given occasional visits with Kenneth.

LEMON: So the state department, Terri, has, has used this as an opportunity to call again for the release of your brother and Matthew Miller. What if anything from this, from this state department do you want? Have you heard anything? What would you look to happen?

CHUNG: You know, I am thankful for the ongoing efforts of the state department. I know they have been trying very hard behind the scenes to quietly advocate for Kenneth and try to secure his release. And I would just ask that, you know, continue to make sure that this case its getting the priority that it deserves. You know, we are coming upon a two-year anniversary. So, that's, just when I think about that I just, my heart breaks. I can't believe that we are still here. You know that he is still there after two years. And you know, that's, that's a fact. And that's just -- you know that, the third thanksgiving that we are spending without him home. And you know we want him home for the holidays.

LEMON: That puts it into perspective. And probably, a better more direct question I should have said what would you look to see happen diplomatically in your estimation?

CHUNG: I don't know what it is going to take. I know that Kenneth has been convicted of, you know, of their laws and has been sentenced to their prison. So we know that some sort of legal amnesty has to be requested and given before he can be released. We understand that. So I don't know what it is going to take. I know that message has been before that some sort of high ranking envoy need to come and seek that amnesty from the United States government.

And I think the challenge is trying to figure out who and what, and what that, envoy should and could look like. And I know that there has been efforts being made behind the scenes by the United States government. And I just hope that both sides see the urgency of the situation because, you know, two years -- American citizen, North Korean labor camp. That's not acceptable. We need to see him home now.

LEMON: Thank you, Terri Chung. And we appreciate you joining us. And yes, we like to see him home. Thank you.

CHUNG: Thank you.

LEMON: That is it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for watching. I will see you back here tomorrow night, 10:00 p.m. eastern. Our live coverage continues now with Errol Burnett and Rosemary Church at the CNN center in Atlanta.