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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Authorities Look for Possible Victims of Serial Killer; Profiling Serial Murderers; Interview with Son of Darren Van's Ex Wife

Aired October 21, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Michaela Pereira.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman. "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Seven women found dead so far in Indiana, but that is only since Friday. Now we're learning the suspect has a criminal record dating back two decades in at least two other states.

And also ahead, remember the man arrested in last month's disappearance of a UVA student and then linked to a 2009 death at Virginia Tech? Well now Jesse Matthew has been indicted for sexual assault and attempted murder in a similar case from back in '05.

And later this hour, she says cyberbullying started with her and she is determined to end it once and for all. What's behind Monica Lewinsky's brand-new mission in life?

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

This hour, authorities in Indiana, Illinois, and now Texas as well, are looking into missing persons and unsolved homicide cases on the trail for more possible victims of what just might be a serial killer. His name is Darren Vann. He's 43 years old and he's charged in the death of 19-year-old Afrika Hardy, found dead Friday at a Motel 6 in Hammond, Indiana. Police say they tracked Vann through text messages, and upon his arrest he led police to six other bodies in the area. And according to "The Chicago Sun Times," they happened in just the last two years.

A detective told the paper that Vann said, quote, "basking in the glory, reliving everything, seeing photos of the victims, both dead and alive." Mr. Vann has led police to believe there could be other victims as well. Some cases actually dating perhaps as far back as 20 years.

Our Poppy Harlow is on the story and she joins me live on the phone in Hammond, Indiana.

And, Poppy, I understand you've actually been out with the police and their searches. That they're using cadaver dogs. Tell me what you've seen and what they're finding, if anything. POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): We have, Ashleigh,

just spent about an hour with the police, the Gary, Indiana, police. The cadaver dogs searching with about 20 officers. What they've been doing is going house to house in this specific neighborhood, which is right in the same area where a number of those other victims' bodies were found laying in these abandoned homes. The block that we went up and down were filled with boarded-up, abandoned homes and they are concerned that there may be more victims of Darren Vann.

I asked them, do they know for sure? Did he say there are more than these seven women that were murdered? And they said, he did not specifically say that. But, Ashleigh, clearly - they clearly have some indication for a reason to keep searching with search a big team, with these cadaver dogs.

They did not find any bodies or any articles of clothing, et cetera, in the search when we were with them. They were using a grid pattern, each team scouring different parts of this area. We talked to a lot of residents that came out during the search. One 19-year-old girl said to me, we called it Scary Gary. I don't go out after 8:00 p.m. at night because she is so concerned about the abandoned homes and the danger that they pose.

But again, at this time, the question is, this man with such a troubled, criminal past and history who just served five years in prison, could he have killed more people?

BANFIELD: Well, and here's the other question. As they go out searching house to house that's abandoned, the statistic is alarming. I mean Gary has 20 percent abandoned properties. That's houses and structures in the thousands. So is this just a happenstance search or do they have something? Is he saying something in custody --

HARLOW: Well, it's a very - it's a very good question, Ashleigh. What's the reason they're searching this neighborhood that we were just in with them is because they said it was within blocks of where the other women were found. You have to remember, Darren Vann, over the past few days, has been leading police to these homes where those six additional bodies were. He has not led them to any more homes. So they are searching in the proximity of where a number of these other female bodies have been left.

But you're right, this is a 53-square-mile area. They have thousands of abandoned homes and it is going to take a lot of time. When you look at Darren Vann's past, it is incredibly troubling. His arrest record goes back to '93. He was arrested and convicted for aggravated rape in 2009. He served five years in jail. Just got out in 2003.

However, his sex offender registry, Ashleigh, actually has his risk level listed as low. That is a big concern given what we now know. And finally, in 2004, we now know from a police affidavit that he was convicted and spent 90 days in jail because he grabbed a woman, held gasoline over her and threatened in front of police to burn both himself and the woman, the result of a big argument that unfolded.

But this is someone with a hugely troubled past. Police last monitored just in September because he's a sexual -- sex offender and clearly that monitoring didn't work.

BANFIELD: And that affidavit goes on to say he not only poured gasoline on the women, he poured gasoline on another man's home threatening to burn it down as well because he was apparently helping her or harboring her, one of the two.

Poppy, stand by, if you will, because I want to -- there's so much - there's so much about this that as you look and follow the police, Poppy, the legal system is churning fast and furious on this. And I want to bring in our CNN legal experts on this story. Defense attorney Danny Cevallos and CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin. Also with me, is Dr. Jan Garavaglia, who's the chief medical examiner for the Ninth District in Orange-Osceola, Florida, where she conducts autopsies. And you might recognize her from The Discovery Health Channel show "Dr. G Medical Examiner."

Dr. G, quickly to you. As they discover these bodies in the various, I'm sorry to say it, but the various forms of decomposition that they are in because the reporting is, is that they likely may have died within the last two years, this is not necessarily a who done it because this man led the police and authorities to these bodies. But that doesn't mean that you don't cross t's and dot i's. So what are the authorities having to do with these murder locations or at least these body dumping locations and the actual forensics with the bodies themselves?

DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER IN ORANGE-OSCEOLA, FLORIDA: Well, what you're trying to do is trying to -- although he led them to them, you're still trying to find evidence that links him to it. That part is not as important as trying to find who these women are for sure and positively identifying them.

BANFIELD: And closing what may just be, you know, cold cases. And in that respect, some people think that's a pretty easy task given dental records, et cetera, but it's not always the case, is it?

GARAVAGLIA: No, it's not always the case. And, unfortunately, a lot of people - these are people -- some of these women have kind of -- sounds like erratic lives. A lot of them weren't reported missing. You have to -- a lot of them don't go to the dentist or nobody knows if they've ever gone to the dentist. Nobody knows where you can get a standard DNA for them. It's really sometimes very difficult.

BANFIELD: And there may not be a missing persons case filed on them, even though they may have been missing for years or maybe, you know, decades. In this particular case, likely it looks like they were killed in the last two years, potentially.

Dr. G, stand by, if you will.

Danny Cevallos, I said that it's not a who done it, it's not a mystery to be solved necessarily, but when it comes to court proceedings against that man, they are not going to take any chances. They're going to want to get everything they can and make sure that evidence is rock solid. DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And in Indiana, like

many states, there really isn't a provision for a serial killer, although the murder statutes in most states allow for the death penalty, where allowed, if somebody's committed a murder. And Indiana's no exception. If you've committed any prior murder, whether convicted or not, you can be eligible for the death penalty.

The other thing to think about is that in the complaint that I reviewed, he's also charged with robbery. Why is that significant? A lot of people might say, well, what does -- robbery seems like a much lesser felony. Well, that can be an aggravating felony. In other words --

BANFIELD: It also takes it to a felony murder status, doesn't it?

CEVALLOS: Exactly. It takes it up to felony murder status.

BANFIELD: Death penalty.

CEVALLOS: Even an unintentional death during the commission of something like robbery, which is a dangerous felony, not only gets you to murder, but potentially makes you eligible for the death penalty.

BANFIELD: I think kidnapping would also fit that bill as well if he was holding them against their will before he killed them. Let me ask you, Sunny, just speaking about the violent nature -

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: Not to suggest any murder isn't violent, but in these particular crimes, we at least know that there is a rape involved. How on earth does someone get away from an aggravated rape -

HOSTIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Committed in 2007, attacking a 25-year-old woman that he'd arranged to meet, premeditated this, tripping her, strangling her, raping her when he felt her body went limp, and he serves five years?

HOSTIN: Well, that's what's remarkable. I think when you talk about rape -- rape is a violent act, of course. But when you talk about that fact pattern, and the fact that he served all five years but was released and his recidivism -

BANFIELD: Low risk.

HOSTIN: Sort of moniker was low risk, that is a fail.

BANFIELD: How do you get that?

HOSTIN: That means - and I think, Ashleigh, unfortunately, we see that a lot when it comes to crimes against women and violence against women. As you know, I spent a lot of my career in that space. We don't understand that these people have -- they re-offend over and over and over again. And generally, during their re-offense, the violence level goes up and up and up. So the fact that he was determined to be low risk means that our system failed and we just don't get it. He moves to Indiana from Texas and all of a sudden he's, you know, going to be OK? The fact that he probably committed these crimes in just a year and a half that he was released goes to show you that we really need to look at the system in its entirety.

BANFIELD: Well, I'll tell you one thing, regardless of him being mirandized, he was talking at this time yesterday. He had not retained counsel and was still talking --

HOSTIN: Well, they relive it. These are sick, sick people.

BANFIELD: As was the headline in the local papers, that he seemed to be enjoying this, according to the investigators -

HOSTIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Taking them back to the scene of the crime.

HOSTIN: It's not unusual.

BANFIELD: Let's just hope he keeps on talking because that's just about the best thing for us and the worst thing for him. Danny Cevallos and Sunny Hostin, stick around, if you will. And, Dr. Jan, if you'd stick around, too, I've got a couple of other questions for you as we continue exactly what did Darren Vann lead police to all those bodies for? What did he think he was going to get out of this? So he was reportedly excited to show them off. What is going through the mind of this suspected serial killer? And, by the way, is there an actual profile for serial killers? You might be surprised to find out, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The person who may be most shocked to hear that Darren Vann is suspected in the deaths of seven women just might be his ex-wife. They were married for 16 years. And she told our affiliate WLS that she is in disbelief over this. She said Vann was a loner but that she never knew him to be violent. In fact, she said he was nice to everyone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARREN VANN'S EX-WIFE (voice-over): He was so protective (ph) of everybody, you know, that would come around or if we go visit anybody. You know, he was a real friendly person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The two were divorced in 2011 but they were separated years earlier. Vann's ex-wife said she cut off contact after she found out about that sexual assault conviction in 2009. And joining me now is criminal profiler Pat Brown in Washington to take us inside the mind of a serial killer if in fact this is what Mr. Vann actually is. There's no conviction yet.

But I've got to say, Pat, when you lead police to seven corpses in various stages of decomposition, it's real hard to find any kind of defense there. But what do you make of this, this wife saying he was friendly and intelligent and that she's completely surprised by what she's hearing?

PAT BROWN, CEO, PAT BROWN CRIMINAL PROFILING AGENCY: Well, Ashleigh, first of all, what usually happens is this guy is a psychopath and he's a manipulative person. And he found a woman he could manipulate. He's going to look for that, somebody who's naive, often very sweet and very forgiving of all his little deeds that he might do and the lies he tells. And she's like, oh, but he's not violent. It's interesting that he commits a violent rape, and yet she's shocked that he's a serial killer? I mean, he already raped and strangled a woman, so why wouldn't you think he could be a serial killer?

BANFIELD: Well we were pretty astounded that he only served five years and was deemed low-risk. Somebody who committed that kind of a violent offense against a woman, I'm just astounded someone would serve that little and then be classified that way. Can I ask you about --

BROWN: Well, wait a minute, I want to just say this about the rape thing. There is no such thing as a one-off rapist. I mean if you commit a rape of a stranger, you are a serial rapist. We just haven't caught up with your other rapes that you've done or that you're going to do. Same thing with a serial killer, if you rape and murder a woman, you just grabbed up off the road, you are a serial killer whether we know you've done anything else or not. This is why Darren Vann qualifies as serial killer, even if he hadn't taken the police to those other bodies.

BANFIELD: You know, Pat, It seems so bizarre. And I know you've seen it a million times before. And we've heard it before, that serial killers relish in reliving the crimes and in celebrating the discovery of their victims. And if that, in fact, is what Mr. Vann is, there is one very strange detail that really stuck out to me. That police said when he took them to one body in a basement, he mentioned nothing of the house next door. Another abandoned house with two bodies in it. That didn't come out until they had already returned back to the station later on. What do you make of that?

BROWN: Well, talking about getting inside the mind of a serial killer, you really can't because they have their own peculiar little minds. Like for example, people ask, did he want to get caught? The answer is no. What happened was he got so comfortable in his killings that he got careless and so he screwed up. Which he said, I screwed up. And now that he's caught, now he's playing a new game. Because he knows -- he's in Indiana, which is a death penalty state. But they haven't executed anybody since 2008. So this guy's never going to be executed and he knows that. So he can now use the police for having a little fun. First of all, you get to have the glory of them discovering the new body and get to tell the tale, which is fun to watch their faces and he can try to add things up and become a big, bad serial killer for the media. And on top of that, he gets field trips. So if he claims, oh yeah, I've killed women even before that rape, he might get field trips, who knows where, you know, he gets to go out to McDonald's and have hamburgers with the detectives. BANFIELD: 10 seconds, here. 10 seconds. But if there are many more

victims dating back 20 years, how long do they let those field trips go on or do they have to absolutely go and check every single one.

BROWN: It's up to the police department how much they believe him, and what they want to do. But we don't know if he started killing after the rape because the woman ratted him out or whether he was actually a serial killer prior to that. We just don't know.

BANFIELD: Pat Brown, good of you to join us, thank you. Such a disturbing topic. But I want to tell you this, just as I was talking to Pat Brown, we've been able to locate the stepson, no the son, no, stepson, I beg your pardon, the stepson of Darren Vann. His name is Edward Matlock and he has plenty to say about his mother's ex-husband. He spoke with his mother last night. And after the break, he's about to speak with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: There's no question when news of a serial killer or suspected serial killer breaks, a community is left in absolute shock. And perhaps those who are shocked the most, family members of the person arrested. And that is no more true than for the family members of the man on your screen, the suspected serial killer in Indiana, named Darren Vann. I'm joined on the phone right now by the suspected serial killer's stepson, Edward Matlock. Mr. Matlock, can you hear me?

EDWARD MATLOCK, FMR STEPSON OF DARREN VANN: Well, I'm not his stepson, first of all. Yeah. But anyway --

BANFIELD: Yeah, can you give me your reaction to hearing the news of the arrest of Darren Vann?

MATLOCK: Well, I mean it didn't surprise me. That's his character, first of all. He married my mom close to my age, I knew something was wrong with him.

BANFIELD: When you say that, characterize for me, your mother married him and he was 30 years her junior?

MATLOCK: He was close to my age. I mean. First of all, I didn't like it, first of all, for her to marry a guy almost my age, No. 1. No. 2, he was just a strange guy. I walk in and I would see him talking to himself and in deep thought a lot. She acted like she'd never seen it. But I told her, the guy's a nut case, he is. And I watch him. And I'd never allow him near my kids or in my home. He just creeped me out, period.

BANFIELD: You would not allow him in your home?

MATLOCK: Heck no. He was a nut case. When a person walks around talking to themselves and looking like they're answering themselves, something's wrong with them.

BANFIELD: What other kind of behaviors did you witness -- MATLOCK: And when I heard that he killed some people I thought, okay,

he finally popped.

BANFIELD: What other kind of behaviors did you witness of Mr. Vann's that made you uncomfortable?

MATLOCK: Just his persona. I mean, he walked around creepy. You know, he was always in deep thought. Always. Like he had something on his mind, something else on his mind other than where he was. You know what I mean? When you talk you say hello, he's like oh, and looks down to the ground. Or he starts -- or if you turn around, he's like talking to himself slowly. And I'm like, this dude is really creepy. He's always talking to himself. And my buddies knew about it. And they used to crack jokes on me about him being my dad. And I would say to them, he's not my dad. Okay? Don't ever say that again.

BANFIELD: I think you --

MATLOCK: And that's the reason why. He was a creepy dude. I can't believe my mom would marry someone that young and I kept my distance from them, first of all. It didn't look good, you know. My friends didn't even know she was dating a young guy like him, 1. 2, you know, he was a strange cookie. I couldn't even believe it. When I met him, I think he had just got out of the military. And I'm like, how could he even be in the military? But I don't know the story of him, why he was in or why he's out. But it don't surprise me. And then when he moved here to Austin, when I finally convinced my mom to move out, I think he moved in later. But he was walking the streets at night strangely. My mom didn't think nothing strange about it. But I said, mom, your boyfriend or husband or whatever you want to call him, he's running around at nighttime on - in Austin. You know what kind of neighborhood that is? That's a prostitution strip, that's drug- infested people. He's a strange character.

BANFIELD: And you knew that he was frequenting these neighborhoods?

MATLOCK: I told her I hope you're checking yourself for AIDS, because he might be giving you AIDS. Huh?

BANFIELD: You knew that he was frequenting these neighborhoods that were ridden with prostitution and drug crimes?

MATLOCK: Yeah. I mean, it ain't no top secret. I know - his business enough to keep track of him. Just make sure this crazy fool don't do anything to my mother. Besides that, there was other people -- that knew him that tell me where they seen him wandering or walking. And I'm like, yeah, that don't surprise me, he's a shady character, anyway. I mean, everyone knew I didn't like him and everyone knew I was watching him. And anyone that seen him places would say something, I would pretty much catch onto and go, really, hmm? And my mom --

BANFIELD: Can I ask you this? Can I ask you this, Edward? If you're just joining us, we're speaking with Edward Matlock, who is the son of Darren Vann's ex-wife and knows a lot about him, spent a lot of time with him and was none too pleased with this person. May I ask you this, Mr. Matlock, you spoke with your mother last night, what did she say about all of this and what is her reaction to this remarkable news that he is now a suspected serial killer in Indiana?

MATLOCK: Well, first of all, again, that's not my stepdad. Let's get that clear, first of all. Okay, I only have one dad. This happened to be a guy that married my mother. Okay? The second thing, she's upset. I mean she is terrified. My mom is in her 70's now and she's shaken up.

BANFIELD: But she was married to him for 16 years. Why --

MATLOCK: Because I told her, he was probably doing something when he was wandering around in Austin. So they better be checking the neighborhoods where he was living. You know?

BANFIELD: Mr. Matlock, can I ask you, your mom was married to Mr. Vann for 16 years. Was there nothing that ever seemed untoward about him to her? Did she not suspect anything about his behavior? Did she not see the same things that you clearly see and find very displeasing about Darren Vann?

MATLOCK: Well, I think, I think when they first moved up here, you know how it is when you first move someplace, it's a new little relationship. It probably was the happiest moment of his life, I don't know, he got some lady to marry him. But after that, I think he worked for a temp agency that had him working --. They fired him, you know, and from that moment on, he went downhill. He became a creepy dude.

BANFIELD: Did he ever hurt your mother?

MATLOCK: And he wandered around and just couldn't find good jobs. And then that's when hardships started taking place. They couldn't pay their bills. And I think that's when they broke up and they went back to Indiana. And then I went up there to visit her and I seen her living in poverty. I'm like, mom, come on. You don't have to live like this to live with this idiot. You can come back, live with me, and live good, and not starve, and not be broke. I know you love this guy but he ain't worth crap. You know, I mean --

BANFIELD: So Edward, can I ask you -- you told our producers that if he ever touched your mother, you told him you would come after him. Did you ever have any reason to believe that he did anything to hurt your mother? Did she ever suggest for a moment that he was violent with her?

MATLOCK: No, he knew better. He knew better. He knew better. I mean, he knew me, he knew my personality. And he already knew that my mom was trying to keep me a calm person. And he knew that I wasn't comfortable with the fact that he was really close to my age. And I probably put it to him that, look, personally, I don't like him and I don't want you to ever make your husband think I like him. If he ever does anything to you, I will come after him, because he's young. So you better explain to him that if y'all aren't happy, he needs to move on with his life.