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Don Lemon Tonight

Terror in Canada; Leaked Details of Michael Brown Autopsy; Another White House Fence Jumper; Canada's P.M.: Canada Not Intimidated by Attacks; Ferguson on Edge, Awaiting Grand Jury Decision

Aired October 22, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Breaking news; The lockdown ends and the search for clues begins in the deadly attack on Canada's Parliament today, a scene of panic and chaos. Dozens and dozens of shops echoing through the marble halls. Listen. My goodness. That is after a soldier, Corporal Nathan Cirillo, is shot in the back at the National War Memorial.

Now, here's what we know right now. Authorities identified the likely shooter as Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, a Canadian convert to Islam with a history of drug use. He was shot and killed by Sergeant at Arms Kevin Vickers. I will talk to the hero's brother, plus eyewitnesses to the violence.

And I will ask our experts, is there a connection to ISIS?

This as another jumper makes his way over the White House fence before getting caught by the Secret Service.

And meanwhile, in Ferguson, Missouri, the autopsy of Michael Brown may raise more questions than it answers. But what will that mean for the case and for a community that is on edge tonight?

We have got a whole lot to get to tonight.

But I want to begin with CNN's Chris Cuomo. He's live in Ottawa for us.

Good evening, Chris, a terrifying day in Canada's capital. You are there live at the scene. What's the latest?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The very latest is that, according to the mayor, who was just talking with Anderson Cooper, they're going to start releasing somewhat of the lockdown that has gone on here.

They had the entire perimeter around the Parliament building. Of course, that is situated very close to where the national war monument is here in Ottawa. They had it all closed down because they just clearly didn't understand what they had yet in terms of how many people were involved, a lot of varying accounts. That is being released now.

The city is somewhat getting back to life as normal. But this was a very traumatic event. They only had four homicide here last year in Ottawa. So something like this highly traumatic, Don.

LEMON: Part of the lockdown, Chris, is because they thought it might be multiple gunmen. Is there any clarity into whether it was a single gunman or multiple gunmen?

CUOMO: I can't confirm it. I'll tell you, we heard from the mayor, who is certainly a better source than I am. He said the police chief told him as of now they believe there was only one shooter.

The description of events, the description of the weapon seems to be consistent with that. However, authorities especially on the U.S. side on the intelligence community are still very actively working on two different theories. One is that this was a lone deranged person who did this. Or there may have been more, because there are multiple witness accounts of that, Don. So they're not ready to confirm that yet. There is a big net of suspicion.

There's a big point of confusion here also, Don, especially on the U.S. intelligence side. Canada is asking for help. The U.S. is willing to give it. They work very closely in partnership, as you know. But Canada is ahead of where the U.S. is on this particular situation. Canada is monitoring almost 100 people right now.

The man involved who was killed today, the man on Monday, who was killed, both had their passports taken from them. They had been flagged already and were being monitored for various reasons. So that's where the investigation has to head right now, Don.

LEMON: All right, we will talk to our Jim Sciutto a little bit more about that. But Chris Cuomo joining us live from Ottawa tonight, thank you, Chris.

The attack on Canada's Parliament seemed to come from really nowhere when the shots rang out this morning.

CNN's Jim Sciutto joins me now with that part of the story.

Jim, the lockdown has now begun to start to be lifted. Walk us through what happened this morning.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a surprise that a city, as Chris noted, that doesn't have much of a history of gun crime at all, so to have one killing by gunfire, especially so close to the Parliament there, right inside the Parliament building, which is considered really a safe zone in the city and doesn't have a lot of the safety restrictions that we would be used to in the States around an area like that so used to the -- so close to the government building.

When this happened, a tremendous amount of surprise and real fear in Canada's capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice-over): Terror on Canada's Parliament Hill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, there is a shooter on the loose!

SCIUTTO: 9:52 a.m., shots ring out at the war memorial, the victim, a Canadian soldier standing guard at the site.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guy came from the side on my left-hand side and came out with a rifle and shot at the man. And then the guy went falling down.

SCIUTTO: From the scene, police received multiple 911 calls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so I just heard a shot, turned around and there was a guy with a rifle just around on the back corner and just pow.

SCIUTTO: Moments later, around 10:00 a.m., shots fired inside the Parliament building just a few hundred yards away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, now move!

SCIUTTO: Police scramble. A second round of shooting follows a minute later. Lawmakers inside the building huddle in a caucus room, where they pile up chairs against the door to barricade themselves in. Police rush others outside to safety.

JOHN MCKAY, CANADIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Hear this pop, pop, pop, possibly 10 shots. Suddenly, the security guards come rushing down the hallways, usher us all out to the back of the Parliament buildings.

SCIUTTO: In the chaos, a hero, the Parliament's sergeant at arms shooting down an armed suspect. Shortly after 1:00 p.m., Canadian Parliament members report the soldier shot at the war memorial is dead. An hour later, Canadian police announce a suspected shooter, a male, is also dead. Police however still unsure whether another gunman remains on the loose.

CHARLES BORDELEAU, OTTAWA POLICE CHIEF: We are still investigating the active operation. We're in process right now with the RCMP in clearing and securing Parliament Hill. And that is a slow, methodical approach.

SCIUTTO: And tonight Canada's capital, Ottawa, is still on alert.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: There's some new reporting tonight from my colleagues Elise Labott and Evan Perez. And that is there were already concerns about jihadist activity in Canada before tonight's attack, so much so that warnings were issued and increased security deployed at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa, as well as the U.S. Consulate elsewhere in the country not believed tied to this particular attack, but clearly growing concerns about jihadi activity in Canada. Don, I can tell you that there is increasing focus from the U.S.

officials I speak to who have very close relationships with intelligence officials in Canada about the motivation for this attack being Islamic extremism. They don't know for sure, but there are some signs, one, that the shooter was a Muslim convert, two, that the target was a soldier, and, three, that you had previous attacks just this week.

You religious remember two days ago another Canadian extremist driving his car into a Canadian soldier and killing him.

LEMON: Yes. And speaking of the U.S., in our nation's capital here in the United States, we have had another incident at the White House with someone jumping the fence. What's the latest on that, Jim?

SCIUTTO: That's right, a fence jumper. But thankfully, this time, Don, Secret Service was right on top of this jumper immediately as soon as he crossed the fence.

We have just had him identified. His name is Dominic Adesanya. He's 23 years old. He's from Bel Air, Maryland. There are charges against him pending. He was unarmed when he jumped the fence. And as you may have seen earlier, Don, it was a canine, a dog took that him down immediately.

In fact, we're told tonight that two U.S. Secret Service canines have been sent to the veterinarian for injuries sustained during the incident. If you look at the video of this, it is really incredible, because the assailant is seen there fighting with the dogs on the ground as he is taken down. But they got him a lot quicker than of course the one who got inside that White House and set off so much controversy here in Washington.

LEMON: Jim Sciutto reporting from Washington tonight, Jim, thank you very much.

Let's continue on with the Ottawa shooting.

Joining me now is eyewitness Chris Goldrick. He's a producer for CBC television who arrived at Canada's National War Memorial just moments before the shooting started.

Chris, good evening.

We are now learning the name of the soldier who died at the memorial, Nathan Cirillo. Tell us what you saw.

CHRIS GOLDRICK, CBC TELEVISION: Well, as we have been reporting all day, it happened just before 10:00 this morning.

I was in our CBC newsroom about half-a-block away from the National War Memorial, so obviously was down there within minutes, and was sort of greeted by a very dramatic quickly unfolding scene. The soldier was on the -- in front of the memorial being given mouth-to-mouth and CPR by a civilian woman who we have since learned was a nurse who happened to be in the area. At that point, there really wasn't much going on in terms of police

presence. But that changed very, very quickly. Officers arrived obviously heavily armed. And then we began speaking to witnesses.

LEMON: And, Chris, I understand that there were two soldiers at the memorial. What happened to the other soldier? Did you see that?

GOLDRICK: Well, the other soldier was there. He came to the aid of his colleague. This all happened obviously very, very quickly. The suspect left the scene and apparently had a car, got into that car, and then somehow made his way up to Parliament Hill and then entered what is called Center Block, which is the main building on Parliament Hill.

He proceed down what is called the Hall of Honor, which is probably about I would say 50 -- maybe not quite that much -- 30 yards and at the end of which is the Parliamentary library. At that point, there was there was a vicious gun battle. Some witnesses report up to 30 shots being fired.

But what we do know is the sergeant at arms, who is the man that is in charge of security on Parliament Hill, oversees at least Center Block, oversees security, he was the one that fired the bullet that ended this.

LEMON: Yes. And we are going to speak to his brother momentarily. Thank you very much for that, Chris Goldrick, a producer from CBC Television, an eyewitness.

Now I want to bring in John Vickers. His brother Kevin is the hero of Ottawa, the sergeant at arms who shot and killed the assailant in Canada's Parliament building.

John, thank you so much for joining us. You must be incredibly proud of Kevin. Tell us about your brother.

JOHN VICKERS, BROTHER OF CANADIAN SERGEANT AT ARMS: Kevin has spent 28 years in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in various capacities across Canada.

He is an exemplarily individual who throughout the course of his career put his country and his community first. And that philosophy I think carried him through the ranks of the RCMP all the way to Ottawa and then was bestowed the opportunity of becoming a sergeant of arms back in about 2005 or so.

LEMON: You never could have imagined I'm sure spending time with him with a family, at a big family event recently, that he would be involved in something like this?

VICKERS: Absolutely.

He was just sharing with me last week that he had a busy agenda at Parliament between now and Christmas. And although there has been an increased threat assessment of late, I'm sure, like him and all of us, it is just very, very shocking particularly in Ottawa of all places to have something like this unfold.

And to have your big brother right in the middle of it all, it certainly was very surreal this morning.

LEMON: John, has your brother ever been involved in anything quite like this, a breach in security, anything like this

VICKERS: You know, in 28 years with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, I don't believe he was ever in a situation where he faced an exchange of gunfire or anything lake that.

And for it now to happen at Parliament, as I say, is unbelievable. And we're just relieved he is OK. But as far as his call for duty, he is the type of guy that when the country needed him he would be there full force and dependable. And he did what he had to do for the country today and for the safety of all of those folks there in Ottawa and we're just very, very proud of him.

LEMON: Listen, this is a quite rarity when it comes to Canada. We hear about gun violence sadly a lot more here in America, in the U.S., than we do in Canada. And I'm sure this comes as even more of a shock to your family and people of Canada to have something this high- profile involving guns in Canada.

VICKERS: It certainly is.

You know, it is very, very rare here in this country to have such a shocking event occur, particularly in our nation's capital. But Canada is a very strong, independent nation that will rise up to this situation. But today we hold our heads down and express sorrow for the loss of that soldier and condolences to the soldier's family. And we -- as I say, we will rise through this and move forward.

LEMON: John Vickers, thank you.

VICKERS: Great, and nice to say hi to you Don.

LEMON: Yes.

When we come right back, dozens of children were about to begin a tour when the shooting started on Ottawa's Parliament Hill. I'm going to talk to the lawmaker who helped lead them to safety.

Plus, why the Ottawa suspect's passport was seized and what that could mean for the investigation. Is there a link to ISIS?

And new details from Michael Brown's autopsy, how they could change everything in Ferguson.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Our breaking news is from Ottawa.

Police have ended the lockdown, but the urgent investigation just beginning. That's after a gunman entered Parliament earlier today and started firing. People inside the building ran for their lives. I want you to listen to this recording. It's made by Cormac MacSweeney, Parliament Hill bureau chief for City News, which is CNN's partner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. There's a bunch of -- a bunch of gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A guy with a shotgun out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A guy with a shotgun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I saw him come in.

(GUNSHOTS)

(SHOUTING)

(GUNSHOTS)

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do we go? Where do I go?

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now is Maurice Vellacott. He's member of the Canada's Parliament who was on a tour with a group of 30 children and their parents when the shots rang out.

I mean, Mr. Vellacott, 30, 31 children and their parents for a tour this morning. You sure picked a day to go on a tour. That must have been frightening for everyone.

MAURICE VELLACOTT, CANADIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Right. That's right.

Well, I obviously didn't plan it. And it probably is a bit traumatic for some of the kids. We will have to debrief and find out how they are handling it and coping, because it was -- one of the younger kids said, that was pretty exciting. But some of the other kids, the teenagers, the gals seemed a little more traumatized by the whole day and the event there.

LEMON: So what happened?

VELLACOTT: Well, we were going through screening. Our tour was about to begin. I was going to give them the insider's tour.

Parliament not sitting that day, so we get on to the floor of the chamber there. I was AWOL from caucus, if you will. And as the screening is taking place, some through it, some going through it, one of the moms is outside. And she was the mom actually that saw the shooter come in and another shooter apparently.

So what's maybe not being said at this point is actually there -- this woman vouches the fact that there were two individuals. Only one has been shot dead at this point. And I'm thinking that's probably the reason why still the lockdown on the Hill proper. They have kind of relaxed it on some of exterior of the Hill.

But she actually vouched the fact that it was two darker, probably Middle Eastern men, it appeared to her, in Western clothes though. And they were the ones in with the gun. And the other one was a little lower down the Hill.

LEMON: You said some of your students are still in lockdown inside of the building, some of those students?

VELLACOTT: Exactly, yes.

Some of these parents and students were released tonight. Had the conversation with them just to see how they were doing and how they were taking the whole incident. But some of the parents, last I talked to them, were still in lockdown in the East Block, in the bowels of the East Block building.

They want through when we kind of scrambled out of there quickly and were chased out. They went down the East Block tunnel. That's in the basement area of the East Block is where they still are as far as I understand.

LEMON: We saw some of the images of the M.P.s piling up chairs against the door to prevent anyone from getting in, also to prevent -- just how did the children handle that situation? I mean, you said it was frightening for some. And some of them took it in stride.

(CROSSTALK)

VELLACOTT: Well, it's kind of a surreal thing.

I would almost say I have got nothing of frame of reference to compare this. You have fire drills around this place, but almost apocalyptic might be another word that might be used by some, but I have, in my 18 years as a member of Parliament, never seen anything like this.

As we come off the Hill off and just onto the Wellington Street there just off the Parliament Hill, then right away, we're pushed away from this vehicle that is kind of stranded there on the bus lane of traffic, because they say that was where the guys got out of.

This young guy is telling us to get away from it. I said, who are you? And he was a Senate intern. Right away, there is the police cars in behind that, the bomb -- bomb unit and sniffer dogs and so on. So, we got away from there down Metcalfe a half-block over. And they kept pushing it back farther and farther because the concern about one or several at that point was -- they wanted us back farther from the Hill, for sure.

LEMON: Well, Maurice Vellacott, thank you very much on a tour today with 31 children.

VELLACOTT: You bet.

LEMON: We're glad that you are all OK.

Tonight, Canada's prime minister labels the shooter a terrorist.

And want to bring in now Bob Baer, CNN's national security analyst and a former CIA operative.

Bob, my goodness. What a day. Would you call this an act of terror?

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It certainly looks like it now. We will have more information tomorrow. We may change our minds.

But just the target, the ability to get through security, I think we probably have to call it a terrorist act, until we are told otherwise. But this looks very serious, the fact that it reminds us how vulnerable we are to these shooters, whether it's a lone wolf or planned. Any building in Canada, any building in Washington D.C. or New York is vulnerable to this sort of attack.

LEMON: Yes. And as you said, I'm going to ask you about that lone wolf or planned.

First, his name is Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. And he was identified -- he was identified as a suspected gunman. He was a convert to Islam and had a history of drug use before he converted. Do you think there was an ISIS influence here? Is there something coordinated or is this a lone wolf?

BAER: Oh, I think it is ISIS-influenced. We will wait to see on that too.

But even in Oklahoma City -- in Oklahoma, where you had the beheading, FBI agents have told me -- these are the field officers -- have described this as a terrorist attack. It was inspired by Iraq and Syria. I think we are going to find out this guys was probably inspired by that conflict. And whether he got instructions or not, he just reacted. That's the whole problem.

Both the FBI and the RCMP, it's hard to run these guys down. Just because they get on Islamic sites and look at them express frustration about this conflict doesn't mean they're terrorists. I worked with the Canadian police a couple years ago. And they are very, very good at data analytics and sniffing out these people.

So, it's not -- I doubt that this guy fell between the cracks. Just very difficult to identify them and when they're about ready to break and make an attack.

LEMON: So, you said you think it is ISIS, so I'm wondering about beyond Canada. ISIS-inspired attacks have now been thwarted in three ISIS coalition countries, in Australia, in U.K. and now possibly Canada.

Do you think Canada knew something was coming? Do you think something is imminent here in the United States?

BAER: I think both the Canadian police and the FBI all agree that something is not necessarily imminent, but inevitable.

I have talked to some FBI agents and CIA officers who cover this. And they said, look, it is going to happen sooner rather than later. It is not going to be organized like on 9/11. But we are just going to get some blowback from this conflict. And it doesn't speak to the ability of the FBI or the Canadian police. And they're doing a very good job.

But it's these people that sort of pop out of nowhere, self-recruited, self-trained, and act on their own.

LEMON: Bob, I want to get your response to this. This is from Newt Gingrich. He tweeted this today.

He said: "President Obama's statement on Canadian killings verges on delusional. He can't bring himself. Go tell truth" -- or should be "to tell truth about radical Islamists."

Does he have a point?

BAER: Well, I think it has gone beyond radical Islam.

When you find people that are converting to Islam on their own and they're simply stating the shahada and going out and seeking some sort of justice based on their own interpretations of the world is closer to insanity, because so far with Oklahoma and these bombings, I haven't seen any centralized control of ISIS.

It is just the conflict. Calling it radical Islam, it depends who you are talking to.

LEMON: All right, Bob Baer, appreciate it.

Does the suspected shooter does fit the pattern of a lone wolf extremist? Up next, I'm going to ask a former jihadist what he thinks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Back with our breaking news. The search for clues to answers in Ottawa. President Barack Obama had this to say about the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't have all the information about what motivated the shooting. We don't yet have all right information about whether this was part of a broader network or plan or whether this was an individual or series of individuals who decided to take these actions. But it emphasizes the degree to which we have to remain vigilant when it comes to dealing with these kind of acts of senseless violence or terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, tonight Canada's prime minister says Canadians will never be intimidated by terrorist attacks. But what do we know about today's shootings? Are they the work of a lone wolf?

Joining me now is Mia Bloom, professor of security studies at the University of Massachusetts-Lowell and author of "Bombshell." Mubin Shaikh is a former jihadist and co-author of "Undercover Jihadi."

You both have great insight into this, because Mubin and Mia, you're both Canadian. And you both dedicate your careers to understanding and combatting terror. So what do you think today, what did you think when you heard about the shootings.

First to you, Mia?

MIA BLOOM, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS-LOWELL: Well, if it was a lone actor, terrorist, it does fit within the pattern of the studies that have been conducted of 119 lone actors in terms of the demographics.

But I think I wasn't as surprised maybe as some people, given the fact that this is the second attack in just three days. There was an attack just outside Montreal, attacking two soldiers at a strip mall. So this seems to me that there is an uptick in violence that is being perpetrated in Canada by lone actor terrorists.

LEMON: Mubin, same thing. Were you -- many people were surprised, "Oh, my gosh, Canada." Was this surprising to you; what did you think?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Well, if somebody like myself, I've been actually suggesting that these kinds of attacks are going to happen. And you know, in Canada we like to believe that, you know, we're a little different than the rest of everyone else, and we are in a good way. But there is this idealistic notion, a naive notion among many people that it can't happen here. And I think the whole country has woken up today.

LEMON: Yes. From what little we do know about Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, that, Bibeau, that he fit the profile. The question is did he fit the profile of a lone wolf extremist, or was he part of an organized terror -- terror campaign, Mubin?

SHAIKH: Well, there's a little bit more information that has come out in this regard. Unconfirmed so far, but that there was communication between Bibeau and Rulo Cuturo (ph) or whatever, Culturolo (ph) -- I can't remember -- Martin, so that there was some communication between the two. That the FBI knew the name of this individual, Bibeau, which means the RCMP knew about his name -- or knew his name. That his passport had also been revoked.

LEMON: Right.

SHAIKH: And so this is going to lead people to ask, "Well, is this one of the guys that have been under surveillance? Is this one of the 90 or so individuals that the RCMP is supposed to be watching?"

LEMON: Yes. So just quickly, to get it straight here, just one-word answers if you can. So Mubin, you think this is ISIS connected? SHAIKH: Yes, I do.

LEMON: Mia, do you think it's ISIS connected?

BLOOM: I don't think we have enough information yet.

LEMON: OK.

BLOOM: But the fact is that a lot of these groups are inspired by ISIS.

LEMON: OK. Let me play this for you, Mia. It's a piece of video. This is -- and it's ISIS propaganda. But it shows the messages that are going out to potential recruits. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDRE POULIN, CANADIAN ISIS RECRUIT: My brother in Islam here in Syria. I originally come from Canada. I watched hockey. I went to the cottage in the summertime. I love to fish. I wanted to go hunting.

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) guided me from the darkness of (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) to the light of (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE). To Islam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What's the significance of this, if any? Mia?

BLOOM: So this is a video by Andre Poulin that was released a few months ago, and I think what it shows is the stereotypical convert who is not particularly knowledge about the faith. And so when ISIS is distorting and bastardizing parts of the Koran in order to convince people not just to join the caliphate but to engage in beheadings and forced conversions, they believe it.

So you know, you've got two people, both from Canada, both who are recent converts. They look very similar. As far as I'm concerned.

LEMON: Hmm. Mubin, what's the significance of this?

SHAIKH: Mia is absolutely right. They deliberately use these people, you know, people from, you know, dysfunctional backgrounds, really. I mean, he might not -- he might try to portray, "I want to the cottage, I was living a good life." I mean, if you look into their backgrounds, you'll see, you know, drug abuse. You'll see criminality; you'll see a dysfunctional life. And it's really not that, you know, not such a wonder that individuals like that end up with groups like ISIS.

LEMON: Mia Bloom, Mubin Shaikh, thank you. Appreciate both of you coming on CNN tonight. We're going to bring you the very latest from Ottawa as it happens.

But when we come back, unrest tonight on the streets of Ferguson. We're there live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight, tempers on the rise in Ferguson. The community on edge, awaiting -- they're awaiting a grand-jury decision on whether to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown -- I should say shooting death.

Now this as new details emerge from Michael Brown's autopsy. I want to go straight to CNN's Sara Sidner now, live for us in Ferguson.

So Sara, it was a day of protests in Ferguson today. Tell us what's going on there and about the new details that have been leaked.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll start with what's happening at this hour. There are protests that are ongoing. They've been going for the past couple hours as they have every night, although tonight the protests are bigger. There are somewhere between 150 to 200 people who came out in front of the police department tonight. They pushed onto the police property. And then pulled back a bit, and there was a tense standoff between police wearing their riot gear and protesters, who were starting to throw things like water bottles.

The vast majority of them standing on the opposite side of the road. And the two just sort of looking at each other and the chants coming from the protests. Something that we have seen on a nightly basis.

Let's now talk about some of this new leaked information that has come out. It's the first time that the public has heard a couple of these details.

The autopsy report from the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's Office, the official autopsy report, was leaked to "The St. Louis Dispatch." We did get ahold of the copy of that autopsy and confirmed with the county official who has information and privy to information of this investigation, that it is the official copy. That is an accurate copy of the report.

And in that report it talked about a couple of things that have really set people off here. One, it talked about the wounds to Michael Brown's hand. What experts say that showed is that there was definitely a struggle, and it can be proven forensically, at the patrol car.

The other one is causing much more trouble. And it has to do with forensic evidence that could show whether or not Michael Brown's hands were up as he was being shot.

We showed the autopsy report to a forensic expert who took a look at it, every detail. And he told us -- as have two other forensic experts, that it does not appear from the entry and exit wounds on Michael Brown's body that his hand were up while he was being shot.

What it does not tell you is whether or not, between those lulls. There was a lull in between a time that it was quiet, between the first time he was shot at the car and when he was eventually shot and killed. Whether or not his hand happened to be up and came down at some point.

But a lot of the forensic experts who have looked at this paperwork say it doesn't appear that his hands were up when he was shot. And that is causing a lot of frustration here. People saying they are very concerned about what this means. The investigation, Don.

LEMON: Sara Sidner, live in Ferguson. We're going to discuss more. Thank you, Sara. Appreciate that.

I want to bring in now Daryl Parks, an attorney for Michael Brown's family.

Good evening, Daryl.

DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN'S FAMILY: Good evening.

LEMON: What's your reaction to details that are leaking out from the autopsy report? I mean, is your team aware of the contents of this report?

PARKS: Well, obviously, we had not seen the report at all, Don. And had asked the St. Louis County medical examiner to give us information when we did our first autopsy with Dr. Baden.

Here though, I think we all have to be very concerned that someone would leak the autopsy report to "The St. Louis Post-Dispatch." I think the Brown family all along has had serious concerns about whether or not they could really get justice. This leak doesn't help their confidence at all. In fact, it hurts the confidence of the general public can have in the process. So we have some serious concerns about it being leaked.

Let me say this, though. You have to look -- think about this autopsy in no way is conclusive as to what happened in that car. You have to take the many witnesses, that are six to eight witness who's come forward and who have given very credible information about what happened in that case.

For example, we know that the officer was trying to open his door. They don't contradict that. So the officer started the interaction between Michael Brown and himself at the car door.

Now, what happened for the gun to come out, I think all the things that led up to the gun being discharged and Michael being shot play a big role in this situation as well.

LEMON: What is your reaction to the report that they're also -- you mentioned the witnesses who -- you know, who said, who corroborate what Dorian Johnson said. What about the eyewitnesses who have testified and backed up Officer Wilson's side of the story?

PARKS: Well, but none of those people have come forward. I think, again, we see that there are people out there. If they know the truth, they should come tell the truth.

What we have seen in this case is all the witnesses out there who saw whatever they saw, the black ones, the white ones, all of them, the ones who used their cell phones to record, they all came forward to face the public scrutiny. For them to say that they have witness and they have not come forward is totally unfair and unjust in this situation. And we have to stop the leaks. The leaks do nothing to help justice in this case.

LEMON: Do you think that leaks -- do you think it's an orchestrated effort to get people to sort of ease Michael Brown supporters and protesters into the likelihood that his officer will probably not be indicted? Do you think that's why it's being leaked?

PARKS: I think it's a slow, wrongful attempt, one, to defame the name of Michael Brown; two, to defame the public's trust in the process.

But I think that we have to think about what's happening here. We will be naive to think that this is not -- I mean, we can't prove it's intentional. But it's very ironic that all of this evidence comes out the same week. It's all not in Michael Brown's favor. And doing it at a time where the grand jury is still meeting.

So you have someone from the federal investigation leaking information. You have the St. Louis County medical examiner's office leaking information, as well. So how can we have confidence in this process?

LEMON: OK, so I have to -- you know, you're a smart man. You're an attorney. You know that every bit of information that comes out is not going to be in favor of Michael Brown, correct?

PARKS: Correct.

LEMON: OK. So eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. You know that in many cases. And you can get ten people...

PARKS: Well, no, but when you have...

LEMON: Hang on a second. Let me finish. Let me finish before -- and then you can answer. So if you can get ten people who can see the same -- have witnessed the same thing and give ten completely different accounts.

So, on both sides. On Michael Brown's side and on Darren Wilson's side.

But what is irrefutable is the evidence in the case, and it appears that the evidence, if it is correct, at this point, it points in the direction of what the officer said happened.

Go ahead and make your point.

PARKS: I have to disagree. There's one other piece of evidence that all of the witnesses talk about as totally refutable. The fact is, Michael Brown was running away. This officer was shooting at him as he ran away. Now true, he may not have hit him as he was running away. But he hit him. So when Michael Brown turned around, yes, he had his hands up. But he also started going down. And so I think you have to take all of the testimony in totality to --

and put it all together.

The real point here, though, is that there is plenty of evidence here in this case for this jury to indict him. Remember indictment is just probable cause that a crime may have been committed.

LEMON: Right.

PARKS: It's not allegation of -- it's not proving guilt. And so I think we need to make sure that, one, that they do their jobs and at least indict and have an open public trial in this case.

LEMON: OK. Daryl, I'm sorry, I have to go.

PARKS: We need to see this publicly.

LEMON: Thank you. I'm up against the clock. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us. And come back, Daryl Parks. Thank you.

More in Ferguson right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back to our Ferguson discussion now, where tensions are rising tonight over leaked details from Michael Brown's autopsy. How will this affect the case?

Joining me now Cyril Wecht, forensic pathologist; and also Chris Chestnut, attorney at the Chestnut firm. He was also successful in getting an indictment against Officer Randall Kerik in the shooting of Jonathan Ferril (ph).

So Cyril, the leak from the "Post-Dispatch." They obtained the autopsy. What did -- did you see anything in there that surprised you?

CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: First of all, there were eight shots that struck Michael Brown, not six shots as had been reported.

No. 2, we have confirmation that two shots in the head went from up downward, which means that Michael Brown had to be bent over with the trunk of his body essentially parallel to the ground, so that when his body is now in an anatomic state you have a perpendicular, actually, when the shooting occurred. It went in on a horizontal, essentially parallel to the ground.

As far as the wound on the thumb is concerned, that confirms what many people already believe and what a lot of other evidence has suggested, that there was a shooting that occurred in the car. It doesn't tell you exactly what happened at that point.

The key to the case still is the number of shots, seven shots, fired after that shot was fired in the car including the two fatal wounds to the head. And another comment I want to make, in response to the statement made

by your colleague that other forensic experts had said clearly that the wounds in the arm show that his arms were not in the position of surrender. I don't understand that at all.

The wound in the upper arm entered in the front and moved upward. Well, if I'm like this, and I'm shot in the -- in the arm, the bullet can definitely move slightly upward. The bullet in the forearm entered on the dorsal surface and they say moved upwards. Their measurements don't show it that way. So I don't see how someone is...

LEMON: You don't think it's conclusive?

WECHT: No, not at all. And remember this: the arm can be in any one of the positions and particularly the forearm, pronation, supination. Which way do you want it? So for someone to make the statement that they made definitively is, I think, at this point quite inappropriate and premature.

LEMON: All right. Much is left up to interpretation, as well.

So Chris, apparently there are also more than half a dozen eyewitness accounts from black witnesses who support Officer Wilson's account. Does it begin to look like the protests were a rush to judgment in your estimation?

CHRIS CHESTNUT, ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. And I think, you know, it's also underscored about -- by the treatment of the protesters and how the law enforcement overreacted.

I think that, you know, the prosecutors are doing a great job of defending this case. A prosecutor's job is to prosecute based on the evidence that's there. And there is certainly sufficient evidence to demonstrate this is use of excessive force. They have still yet to demonstrate how Michael Brown posed a threat to this officer, and that's because he didn't. And this autopsy confirms it, about the trajectory of these bullets downward confirms the fact that he is posing no threat to this officer, and therefore, the shooting was unjustified, especially seven bullets.

LEMON: OK. So quickly, I have a short time left here. Have you ever worked on a case like this, Chris, where so much information started to leak? Do you think that there -- whoever is leaking this, that it's coordinated?

CHESTNUT; Absolutely. This is absolutely deliberate. I can -- I can -- I suggest that that means there is not an indictment coming.

LEMON: Dr. Wecht?

WECHT: Yes, I agree. It is irresponsible, unethical. And I think a judge handling this case should do something about these leaks.

LEMON: So Chris, regardless of exactly what happened between Michael Brown and Officer Wilson on that -- on that day, much of the response, as you said, has been around the treatment of the protesters, the heavy police response on the streets. And there was a rush to judgment. What was also mishandled, though, this was mishandled from the get-go.

CHESTNUT: Absolutely. And I think this is also demonstrative of a law enforcement agency that probably is not accustomed to the accountability of social media. And so now that we have cell phones, we've got Instagram. There's YouTube. There's a different level of accountability that I don't think this -- this agency is accustomed to. And frankly, this underscores the fact that they have overreacted systemically in excessive use of force. Michael Brown should be alive.

LEMON: Do you think that this will bring more unrest, Chris?

CHESTNUT: Absolutely. There's a distrust, publicly, not only in Ferguson but across the country. And we have to deal with this issue. I mean, as we criticize Mr. Putin for inhumanity, what about American citizens' safety? What about Jonathan Ferril (ph)? What about Michael Brown? What about Trayvon Martin? So there are issues that we have to deal with domestically, and there's a public distrust here that is brewing, and it's pouring into the streets of Ferguson. And I think that this has to be addressed.

LEMON: Chris Chestnut, Dr. Cyril Wecht, thanks to both of you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us for our breaking news coverage of Ottawa and also Ferguson, Missouri. That will do it for us. CNN's live coverage of the events in Canada continues now with my colleague, Anderson Cooper. He is live in Ottawa.