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Dr. Drew
Day 2: Life or Death for Jodi Arias?; Jodi Arias` Personality
Aired October 22, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Day two. Will Jodi Arias live or die?
She stabbed Travis Alexander 29 times. One of those strikes nearly beheaded him. Shot him in the face.
Here`s quick look back at her trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRAVIS ALEXANDER: It sounds like you`re a 18-year-old girl having her first (EXPLETIVE DELETED). It`s so hot.
JODI ARIAS: It sounds like what? You`re bad. You make me feel so dirty.
ALEXANDER: You are dirty, little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They explored every naughty fantasy we could conjure up in our fruitful imaginations.
The fantasy that you guys -- that you`re talking about involved a tootsie pop and pop rocks, correct?
ARIAS: Part of it did, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have problems with your memory, ma`am?
ARIAS: Sometimes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you can tell us what kind of coffee you bought at Starbucks in June 3rd of 2008 but you can`t tell us what you said yesterday
or the day before?
ARIAS: I always got the same drink at Starbucks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She believed that her IQ was as high as Einstein`s. Do you know anything about that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do.
ALEXANDER: You introduced me to KY. Did you know that?
ARIAS: I introduced you to KY?
ALEXANDER: I`d heard of it, obviously. But I haven`t used it.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Let`s go right out to Phoenix, CNN`s Ted Rowlands.
Ted, what was the main topic in court today?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was another day of gore in terms of photos and the explanations, Drew. You had the medical examiner on for
most of the day. And the jury and Travis Alexander`s family had to sit through a lot of the same photos they saw the first day.
But this time, they got explanations whether from the medical examiner looking at different cuts, looking at the stab wounds and the focus of
this, Juan Martinez wants this jury to understand how much Travis Alexander suffered during this horrific murder.
PINSKY: Now, I remember the first time they went through this exercise in the original trial. The family was sobbing the whole time. How did they
react this time, particularly with that emphasis on poor Travis` suffering?
ROWLANDS: Well, they were -- a lot of Kleenexes being passed around today. Most of the time, they would look down so they didn`t see the photos, but
they came up so quickly sometimes they were forced to see them and they heard everything. So, there was a lot of crying again today and again, the
jury took notice of the pain that the family is going through, having to relive what happened to Travis.
PINSKY: And how about Jodi? What was her behavior like?
ROWLANDS: Looked away, never looked at any of the photos, was engaged more today. I thought yesterday she was off by herself.
Today, she was more engaged with her attorneys, talking with Jennifer Willmott and Kirk Nurmi many times, especially during breaks, dressed all
in black, staying to the side. This is the point of the trial where the defense is just letting it happen, because there`s nothing they can really
do or say to combat these horrific images.
PINSKY: And did she do that thing where -- when the jury came in and out of the room, she stands and stares at each one of them, sort of weirdly
provocative with them?
ROWLANDS: Well, you know, everybody has to stand when they come in and go. I thought last time around she was trying to make eye contact more than
this time around. She doesn`t seem to be as engaged with that, not as interested in it. But she`s standing there with everybody. Jurors are not
looking at her, though.
PINSKY: All right. Ted, hang out for a second. I want to bring in my panel in.
Vanessa Barnett from hiphollywood.com, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of Tomboys podcast on Blog Talk Radio, Alison Bedell, private
investigator, co-host, "Catch a Contractor" on Spike.
All right. Sam, did I see you wanted to ask Ted something?
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes. Ted, can I ask you about her physical demeanor in the sense that yesterday she had her chair lowered than
everybody else to appear meek and fragile to the jury. Did you notice that today, as well?
ROWLANDS: Yes, and I think it`s probably a conscious decision. And part of the opening statements that Kirk Nurmi said was this is a young girl, a
mentally ill young girl. It`s going to be up to you, jurors, to decide the fate of this mentally ill young girl. They`re really trying to make her
look and feel young to this jury, and hoping that these jurors will think twice about taking her life because it`s a young life.
PINSKY: So, I get it now, how they`re doing it.
Vanessa, you`re kind of -- you`re sort of new to this trial, at least with us talking about it. So, what they`re kind of going after this time, the
way Ted is painting this picture I think he`s probably right, is that this poor, disturbed child, we didn`t realize she was so ill and her illness
finally burst forth in this horrific, how can we possibly kill somebody who is so sick?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: Look, that isn`t going to fly, I don`t believe it will fly. No one is believing that this young, meek girl is
that, because she, at the end of the day, nearly decapitated this man, stabbed him dozens of times, shot him in the face and dragged him around
the house.
And on top of that, when you hear those sex tape recordings, when you hear about the kinky, nasty stuff they were involved in, no one is looking at
her like oh, meek, little, fragile. She wanted it in any way, in any orifice that she could get.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Alison, your reaction to that strategy they`re getting into? Not Vanessa`s strategy. The strategy that she is --
SCHACHER: The fact that she said orifice. It`s just the fact that she said orifice.
PINSKY: I`m sorry we didn`t have Vanessa here the first time around. That`s all.
ALISON BEDELL, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: I don`t think that -- no matter how she sits, no matter how she looks, the evidence is going to speak for
itself. I mean, she has a history of mental illness, and that`s a given, being crazy and the way she was acting with a stalker-ish behavior.
But the fact that she went so far to stab him so many times and shoot him in the face, the pictures -- anybody looking at that and then looking at
her, I don`t think it matters what she looks like, when they look at her, because they`ve got those pictures still in their mind. I can`t say I`ve
seen any pictures like that recently. I would imagine that it`s shocking enough to see such a bloody crime scene, and to see that would be --
PINSKY: Then again, the last jury couldn`t commit her to the death penalty. And this afternoon, speaking to the jury, juror number nine was
dismissed. We already have one juror out because, get this, Leeann, she approached a journalist. She approached Beth Karas, our buddy, and she
asked Beth, are you Nancy Grace? And then this woman was dismissed.
So, Leeann, we`re already down one juror in two days. You think we`re going to make it through this?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I hope so. I hope they have plenty f extra jurors to make up for that if this continues to happen.
But let`s face it, Dr. Drew, I started watching ON CALL, because I was a fan of this show before I started coming on, and it was during the Jodi
Arias trial that I would watch your show every night.
This woman is bat-crazy, put in the expletive that I left out. But what`s so intriguing about her is you can`t turn away from her. You know she`s
crazy. You know she`s insane and followed him around and jealous. I mean, really, all I can think about when I think of Jodi Arias is a bunny boiling
in a pot somewhere on her stove.
PINSKY: Well, that`s who this is.
TWEEDEN: So jealous. People are fascinated by her and people can`t get enough of this. And I just hope the jury can see through the craziness,
that this woman brutally murdered somebody. She`s not this meek little frail, I wear my little glasses.
We`re not buying any of that. You know, if they put her away for life, so be it. But if they kill her, I don`t have a problem with that.
PINSKY: But, Samantha, that`s the point. I mean, she is -- this is the real-life version of "Fatal Attraction." But that`s what this is. But
it`s interesting to me how differently still men and women react to this woman. Maybe it`s how somebody who becomes a fatal attraction does their
thing. They`re disposed to reacting, having males and females react differently to them.
SCHACHER: I think the thing is, the question of the night is, why are men attracted to her? And why are women fascinated by her.
Leeann hit the nail on the head. I see it all over social media. And, Dr. Drew, going on about, you know, borderline personality disorder and all
that, regardless, she premeditated this to the finest degree. She drove it to Arizona, dyeing her hair. She rented that car that wasn`t red to remain
undetected. She bought those gas cans with cash so she didn`t have a paper trail.
And then let`s not forget, she disposed of the evidence with that camera in the washing machine. So, I don`t understand how bringing up a mental
illness defense is going to help her.
PINSKY: Right, because she knew what she was doing. There was an impulsive quality to it. She did have borderline disorder.
But as we discussed last time we covered this base, people with borderline disorder are upset that anybody would contemplate that she represents
people with this condition. It`s almost like if she were diabetic and we all went, well, you know, diabetic sometimes, their sugar gets low and they
don`t think right -- it`s not fair to diabetics. It`s fair to anybody.
All right. Next up, the man who dated Jodi and worked with Travis is here with me.
And later, we`ll hear from Jodi`s parents and what they really think of their daughter.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I wish you were here. If you were here and my grandparents were asleep. I`d put you right in my bedroom and shut and lock the door, and we
would just have a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED) fest. We`d go at it all night.
ALEXANDER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things we know about her is that whenever she had an issue with people, she would correct everybody`s grammar.
Do you remember when she was in jail and the defendant`s manifesto, the defendant actually signed copies of the manifesto, distribute in case she
became famous.
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: Her arrogance and her snarky little smog attitude. She`s a liar. She`s (AUDIO GAP) redeeming about her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau: Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University, Jennifer Keitt, life
coach, and the man you just heard there, Abe Abdelhadi, who dated Jodi and worked with Travis.
And, Abe, I need you to kind of -- you know, we`re starting full speed at trial this year, we`re not building up a bunch of data about Jodi. We all
know what happened. But I want to make sure people remember your piece of this history.
Tell us for those who have not heard your history -- what happened with Jodi and what happened with you and Travis.
ABDELHADI: Well, briefly, we -- I knew Jodi for a few months and we went out a couple of times. And then at one point, she decided to tell me she
was getting back together with Travis. I had no idea they were even dating, and then I knew her for a good year and a half or so after we had
gone out couple of times.
And, you know, the bottom line with all of that is just the weird stuff that happened along the way that I kind of dismissed as, well, she`s
spacey, she`s a little, you know, flighty, whatever. When he turned up dead, that`s when things got a little, you know --
PINSKY: And she dragged you into a split. She started telling him you guys were dating, even though you weren`t. But you were friendly, you
would talk on phone and things.
ABDELHADI: Yes, absolutely. And that was the egregiousness of it. I mean, she was trying to make him jealous.
And, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, I was the only guy that she had anything on in terms of e-mails and things like that, so it was easy to
have a piece of fake evidence to sit there and say I was responsible for Travis, quote-unquote, "abusing her."
But she -- I found out after he was killed that she had lied about a lot of things. And we had they have seen each other after she told me that she
was getting back together. We only talked on the phone and we`re out of couple of business events together and that was it.
Travis and I were acquainted with each other. We didn`t know each other very well. And the sad thing about all of that is, you know, she made sure
we were never going to.
PINSKY: And, finally, this -- remember that strange incident with the magic underwear, you guys were in a parking lot. I blacked it out of my
memory, but it`s coming back to me as I chat with you again today.
ABDELHADI: You didn`t black it out in your memory.
PINSKY: No, I did.
ABDELHADI: You didn`t black it out in your memory.
Well, honestly, what happened was, the one date that we had, we ended up in a clinch and we were fooling around a little bit and she told me earlier
that night it was dabbling in Mormonism. Now, if you know anything about the Mormon religion, it`s not something that you dabble in. You`re looking
at, you know, no coffee, no beer, no premarital sex. There`s a lot of things that you don`t do. It`s not a religion for the faint of heart. Yet
she says she was dabbling in it.
So, later that night, when we were in the clinch and fooling around, I had wanted to see what kind of panties she was wearing. When I discovered it
was a thong, I said, this isn`t magic underwear, because if you know anything about the Mormon religion, they believe in, you know, blessed
undergarments or whatever you want to call it.
So I said this isn`t magic underwear. And she said, there`s magic in them. So I thought that was a key piece to throw out there, only because when she
was showing up at the trial, looking like orphan nanny and trying to act like she didn`t know what a sex act was, I thought, well, that`s not true.
PINSKY: And she claimed that Travis was the one pushing the sexuality on her.
Judy, do you have an opinion? I mean, I can understand that some women can feel traumatized when a man is aggressive, but she`s the initiator in this
case.
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. The hyper sexuality has been demonstrated over and over again with Judy and in their history. There
have been multiple exes that have stepped forward and talked about that part of their relationship. So, this is not to be contested at this point.
You know, what I really think is a key here is that Jodi keeps trying to play the victim card, but even her parents will say Jodi was troubled as a
child -- not troubled like she was sexually abused and molested, but just troubled like her own parents appeared to be afraid of her when you watch
them for their interviews.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And I think that that really is --
PINSKY: We`ll get into that.
Now, speaking of her hypersexuality, Jennifer, I`m going to may you a little more of the phone sex recording. And we`re going to talk about men
and women, how differently people respond to her. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS (via phone): I love it when you grab my butt. That was nice. But you only do it, like, when you`re trying to prove a point to somebody else.
ALEXANDER: That`s not true. But I always do it when I`m trying to prove my point. You cannot say that I don`t work that booty.
ARIAS: Never mind. You do know how to work the booty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. So, Jennifer, we had a conversation in the studio during the break and it`s something became here for me. Most women look at
Jodi and say oh, we see what this girl is all about. Men look at her -- men look at her and only see the sexuality and sort of get sucked in by
that.
It reminds me, Samantha, the hot felon, you remember how you responded to him?
SCHAHCER: Oh, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: It`s the same version. The same phenomenon, which is all the men looked at that guy and say oh, he`s a drug dealer, he`s not to be trusted.
And you were all like, oh, I don`t care.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: We like what we like. We love sexual people.
Let`s just put it out there on the table. The more sexual you are, the more attractive you are to the opposite sex. I can`t be mad at the fact
that men might find her attractive. But any woman can look in her eyes and tell she is playing you.
PINSKY: What are you seeing? What is that? What is that? Teach the men something.
KEITT: What is that? It is the manipulation of the --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Abe actually looked into those eyes, let`s see if he can relate to what you tell him you see there.
ABDELHADI: What I saw there was somebody that was hot and I thought maybe I had a shot. She seemed a little airy --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And that`s it. There you go, Jennifer.
KEITT: He wasn`t only looking at the eyes. He was looking between the legs. That`s exactly where he was trying to go, Dr. Drew.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: Actually, if she was ugly, I wouldn`t look between her legs, let`s be honest. So, there.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What do you see in the eyes, Jennifer? What is that manipulative quality that men miss?
KEITT: It`s that raw sexual attraction that women have, and she knows how to use it. It`s like turning on a light bulb, Dr. Drew. You walk into a
room and you turn it on.
ABDELHADI: You just described every woman since Cleopatra.
PINSKY: What`s that?
ABDELHADI: You just described every woman since Cleopatra.
PINSKY: Well, no, but there`s something these women --
KEITT: Not every woman. You know if you got it, and when you got it and you use it, and Jodi knows that she is using it. She`s using it throughout
the trial. She`s dialing it up, she`s dialing it down. She knows exactly what she`s doing.
PINSKY: Samantha?
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: Yes, it worked spectacularly so far.
PINSKY: Samantha?
SCHACHER: Yes, it is her form of manipulation.
PINSKY: Another form. Another form for her, yes.
SCHACHER: Yes. Right, another form of manipulation. When I hear the tape, she has a very cunning way of making herself look to be very -- I
don`t know what choice of words I can use here -- worked up because she`s so desired by Travis. But at the same time, she has a way of making Travis
feel desired.
So, she kind of puts him on a pedestal and then plays her role and elevates herself by making herself be the aggressor. It`s that back and forth that
I see that in my mind is just pure, pure, pure manipulation.
PINSKY: OK. Jennifer?
KEITT: Absolutely, it`s a sex game. It`s a game that we play amongst one another. Now, she is -- I`m sorry, she`s a psycho, she`s sick, and he
wanted it. So, you know, you got this combination that is explosive in this regard.
PINSKY: And, Judy, he was unable to show that part of himself to anybody. And she somehow got manipulated it out of him and he just exploded because
he was trying to be the good Mormon kid.
HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Something about Jodi, she knows exactly what a person needs and she goes and she stakes it out of you. That is the
manipulation that I believe Jennifer and Sam have been talking about. I believe every woman has that power, but if you abuse it, that`s what makes
other women hate you. That`s why women respond that way to Jodi, whereas men fall for it.
PINSKY: All right. Here we go --
ABDELHADI: Men in general?
PINSKY: Hold that -- no, just you, Abe, evidently. No, men can fall for it. That`s all -- listen, we`ve got a lot more to go. Abe, you`ll come
back later. I`m also bringing in one of the jurors a little bit later.
And also, Jodi`s dad will tell us what made his daughter a liar.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARIAS: Contrary to what everyone thinks, I`m not dangerous to society.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s still hard to believe this beautiful woman could inflict so much damage.
ARIAS: I don`t think I need very much rehabilitation, because I`m not somebody who goes out and breaks the law.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She doesn`t fit any of our stereotypes about a brutal killer.
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW`S JUROR: If the definition of the death penalty qualified within the dictionary, Jodi Arias` face should be right next to
it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not a survivor. She`s a murderer.
REPORTER: Even if you get death, you still have years to live, is what you`re saying?
ARIAS: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That interview was from ABC15.com in Phoenix.
I`m back with Sam, Vanessa, and Leeann, and joining us, one of my jurors who attended the criminal trial, the original criminal trial, Katie Wick.
Katie, welcome.
Jodi says she`s not dangerous, Katie. What is she talking about?
WICK: She`s not dangerous? I would like to line every single guy up in this area and ask them if they would go out with her on a date.
You know, I was listening to your earlier segment and the gals were talking about how women have this sixth sense, Dr. Drew, about being able to tell a
woman and how she`s using her sexual advantage to get a man and how a lot of times men aren`t able to feel that way and perceive that end.
And I can contest to this, there`s somebody very close to me that introduced me to somebody he was dating and I thought, whoa, that is Jodi
number two and warned him. And I said, you better watch out of her, and exhibited the same signs and everything.
So, it might -- unfortunately, it takes guys a little longer to realize, yes, they`re dangerous and she`s -- Jodi says? I mean, come on, do we
believe anything Jodi says?
PINSKY: Right. Katie, you`re in law school. Do you believe she`s likely to get the death penalty here?
WICK: I think she is, and being in law school, Dr. Drew, it`s really put a different spin on this. I think the first time I was here, it was raw
emotion, pure emotion. Not to say I don`t have that still, but I can kind of sit back and look at it with more of a legal perspective, so to speak.
And I do think that the jury, because it is younger females, I think it`s a better advantage for Juan Martinez to get the death penalty for her. I
think women are going to be less sympathetic to her, and I hope it works this time for the family.
PINSKY: Now, that tape you guys heard on the way in, one of the male viewers said, quote, "I can`t believe a woman that beautiful caused so much
damage." Sam, do you think that`s still going through men`s minds on the jury?
SCHACHER: That`s so frustrating, Dr. Drew, because evil comes in all different shapes and sizes. Exhibit A, Jodi Arias.
I`m also now hung up on the fact that there`s a Jodi number two running around. Thanks, Katie.
WICK: I`m sorry. There`s probably more.
SCHACHER: Right, of course.
WICK: There`s probably more.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, if Jodi is likely to take the stand. And we heard yesterday and Anahita saying that the more time she spends on the time, the more
likely she is to make a personal connection to juror, the less likely they are to be able to kill her or to send her to the death penalty.
So, Vanessa, let`s say she takes the stand, which we think is a high probability, what would you like to hear from her differently from last
time. Is there anything that she could say to persuade you?
BARNETT: Well, let me just say this right out the gate -- I do not believe in the death penalty for anyone under any circumstances. So, it wouldn`t
take much to convince to not to kill her. She shouldn`t have killed Travis, it`s not my place to kill her.
But I will say, I don`t think it`s a smart idea to put her on the stand. We`ve been talking about manipulation. People are very aware that she has
this charm and she`s not just "Fatal Attraction". And she`s "Fatal Attraction" meets "50 Shades of Grey."
And so, people are drawn to her. People love her. These men and I think she could maybe manipulate some other people on this jury.
Not only that, unfortunately, Travis being this Mormon man, lived out these kinky, raunchy sexcapades with her and it transformed him. I mean, they
went from baptism to banging in a matter of hours. He should have picked up on it then, like this woman was crazy. He didn`t see it and,
unfortunately, she still has that power and can do that in the courtroom.
PINSKY: I`m sure he felt it, though, Leeann. I`m sure he felt that conflict. I will not repeat what Vanessa said, as I have trouble doing
often.
BARNETT: Right.
SCHACHER: But going from one extreme to the other, I`m sure made him feel very conflicted.
TWEEDEN: Well, I think so. I think any religious person goes through that. I mean sexuality is just human nature, so I think they fight with
that. I think religion is a lot in the head, and they, their big head, sorry. And they, they have a hard time with that. You know, she is a
pretty girl. You know when you asked Vanessa that question, I thought to myself how would I want -- or what would I want different out of Jodi from
this trial when she`s on the stand? You know what I think Dr. Drew what really bugs me about her, just when you showed in that little clip from
that interview, is that she always seems to know the answer. She has it all. She`s smarter than you. You come at her with a question, she comes
back at you with an answer. You know what I mean. And that just .
SCHACHER: Yeah.
TWEEDEN: That smug, like I know more than you do, I`m smarter than you, I hate that.
SCHACHER: Leeann, I remember Katie telling us about that when you were in the courtroom last year. Do you remember that, Katie?
WICK: I do remember that. And I -- first of all, I don`t think there`s anything attractive about Jodi. I think if you`re ugly on the inside,
you`re automatically ugly on the outside, period. But sitting in that courtroom, and listening to her testify, Dr. Drew, day after day after day,
I think those jurors when they went in there pretty much had their mind made up. Because I - it wears on you. I mean after having her little
voice just going on and on about how bad Travis was, and I just want to make a point that because Travis was, you know, quote/unquote "religious"
or he had faith, I think it also goes to testify that doesn`t make him a bad person. Because people of faith struggle .
SCHACHER: No.
WICK: You know, with that. That good and that - so, I mean, I don`t like the fact that some people are taking that and saying oh, he must have been
some perfect little angel. I mean I can - I can attest, I`m a Christian and I struggle with my faith every single day. So I think that`s something
to be mindful of .
SCHACHER: Yes, you bet.
WICK: And it shouldn`t eradicate what Jodi did to him.
SCHACHER: Oh, of course. Samantha.
TWEEDEN: You know, Dr. Drew, there was a tweet that somebody wrote in the last block and I was watching in the grim room, and they said, you know,
she didn`t kill Travis once, she killed him three times.
SCHACHER: Yeah. Samantha. That`s an interesting .
TWEEDEN: Yes, I listen - I - he wouldn`t go down, so she kept going at him.
SCHACHER: It`s disgusting. What is deviant sex to one person isn`t deviant to the other person. So, just because it was raunchy sex in some
people`s eyes, it doesn`t mean that Travis was this, you know, because I`m reading some of the tweets, was this grotesque pervert who used and abused
Jodi. That`s Jodi`s former manipulation to make it look like that she was the one that was discarded, and she was the scorned lover and acted out in
the heat of passion, when we all know that wasn`t the case. This is somebody who initiated it, who controlled him with her dirty sex. And at
the end of the day, after he made it very clear to her that he didn`t want to continue on with this relationship, she was the one that then moved to
Arizona. She was the one that snuck into his house. She was the one that continued to have these sexy conversations with him and to have sex with
him. So if she didn`t like it, I would think that she wouldn`t have upped and left northern California for Arizona. I mean those videos and those
audios, Dr. Drew, sound like two consensual people having sex.
SCHACHER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
TWEEDEN: She didn`t sound like she was coercing him and he didn`t sound like he was coercing her.
SCHACHER: Next up, Jodi`s family, are they hiding some kind of a history of mental illness? I want to get into that. And later, Jodi knows how to
get an audience on television and social media. We will share your comments. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE ESTEBAN FLORES: How are you doing?
JODI`S MOTHER: Not good. No.
FLORES: As good as it can be expected, I guess. Huh?
JODI`S MOTHER: I feel like I`m going to puke.
FLORES: Unfortunately, the evidence that we have is completely convincing to me.
JODI`S MOTHER: Why would she do something like that?
FLORES: I don`t know. And that`s what I was trying to .
JODI`S MOTHER: Just now for what? I don`t know, she come back here and be normal and then when her friends call her and told (INAUDIBLE) she totally
freaked out. Like she knew nothing about it.
I mean how could somebody do that? How? I can`t even think of it, how anybody could do that?
FLORES: I talked to her over an hour and a half and I left with more questions than I had answers for.
DAD: She doesn`t talk to us either. She won`t talk to us. It`s been a couple of years then - since she was, you know, a little crazy for a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau, Judy and Jennifer and joining us Jacqueline del Rosario, marriage and family therapists. Jodi`s
parents, William and Sandra were interviewed by the detective the same day Jodi was arrested for the murder of Travis Alexander. All right, Sam, now,
there were family members in court today from Jodi Arias` camp. Who was there?
SCHACHER: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Jodi`s mother and father were there, who were there the first entire trial. But what`s different is her sister
and brother are there. And if you remember last trial, her sister was not there at all. In fact, Jodi threw her sister under the bus calling her
stupid. And then her brother only showed up to the sentencing phase, but now they`re all here for this new trial.
DREW: And if you remember, she said the only reason she wants to avoid the death penalty so she doesn`t hurt her family, how difficult this would be
for them. Mom in those interviews by the interrogator seemed shock. I mean mom was getting - could not get her head around the behavior. But it
seemed to me, I don`t know if you felt this way as well, but dad kind of seemed to like know something, like oh, yeah, that`s kind of how a sick
person behaves. I wonder if Dad, if a, Jodi is a psychopath and that`s kind of a genetic thing, and maybe dad knew people like that in his family
or just mental illness.
JACQUELINE DEL ROSARIO, PH.D.: Well, dad is certainly going for them, and he`s saying, she acts a little crazy.
SCHACHER: Yeah.
DEL ROSARIO: I mean you`re the parent. You should know that she`s not acting normal. And so I think that`s what we`re hearing here.
DREW: Jennifer, do you get what I`m getting at here? That mom seems again, anxious, unable to - to figure out the lying and the manipulation,
but dad seemed kind of calm and accepting as though he understood what these things mean.
KEITT: Well, you know, I think, Dr. Drew, when you look at both of them, I happen to believe both parents being very genuine. Because I`ve got adult
kids, and I know that kids do what kids are going to do. And while they may or may not have known when she was a younger girl, now it`s really,
it`s all on Jodi. When I look at her dad, he actually has this - a personality type that he doesn`t look like he gets ruffled about anything.
I`m not so sure that it`s hiding as much as it is - his actual demeanor. I don`t know if I would go as far as to say, he knew something or he is
knowing something.
DREW: And if I remember - OK, and if I remember - maybe you can help me, did I remember right, that he had like a chronic kidney disease? Or he was
ill, yeah, he was a sick guy, so it made just - you know, maybe seeing just through the prism of his medical condition. He can`t respond. But Judy,
I`ll ask you the same question.
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, when I look at these parents, I see two parents who did not know how to deal with a child that was so atypical. It was outside
of their parenting skills.
DREW: Both of them. OK.
HO: Absolutely. And I think that they are being genuine, but Jodi had so many strange behaviors that they couldn`t explain and to - to a part they
were a little bit more hands off about it because they didn`t know what to do.
DREW: And then Sam, I`ll have you react to this little video here. Jodi`s mom talks to the detective about Jodi`s behavior immediately following
Travis` death. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DET. FLORES: Did you have any suspicion at all that she had anything to do with his death?
JODI`S MOTHER: I asked her. I asked her. That`s the first thing I asked her. Now what? She came home and she was fine and then when he died, she
cried for two or three, four or five days. She swore she didn`t go to Arizona, so, of course, I believed her, you know, but I questioned her
about it.
DET. FLORES: But you had enough suspicion to ask her?
JODI`S MOTHER: Oh, yeah, of course, because somebody dies.
DET. FLORES: What did she tell you about the relationship between her and Travis? Any indication .
JODI`S MOTHER: Nothing.
DET. FLORES: That there was any problem .
JODI`S MOTHER: Jodi didn`t talk to me. I bet, I didn`t even see a picture of Travis and tell- he died and she was showing this stuff on the Internet
since Travis`s death she has been the best relationship we`ve had in her whole life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DREW: Sam.
SCHACHER: Wow.
DREW: Think about the depth of that manipulation.
SCHACHER: Right.
DREW: Her own mom.
SCHACHER: And Dr. Drew, yes the mother is shocked, but there`s some suspicion there. With the father and the mother, I`m sorry, the only way
that I can wrap my head around this is envisioning my parents being questioned that I murdered somebody -- I know for a fact that both of my
parents would have no suspicion and would challenge these investigators saying there`s no way that my daughter did that, and we don`t see that
here.
SCHACHER: Jacqueline, again, the depths of the manipulation, we see Jodi manipulating her own mother, to the extent that she`s crying for days,
becoming mom`s best friend, and yet for years prior didn`t even talk to her mother.
DEL ROSARIO: Absolutely. But I have to say, I think that the level of manipulation and deception that she uses is just extraordinary.
SCHACHER: Yeah.
DEL ROSARIO: The one thing that the mother keeps saying over and over again is I don`t understand, how could somebody do this? I mean she was
fine when she came home, but then she started crying. But I love the idea that the mother is also noting that the relationship has never been as good
as it is in the midst of the trial or after the death of Travis.
SCHACHER: It`s really crazy. And for me, guys, Samantha, for me, this is one of the things I can`t look away from, the amount of lying and
manipulation is just astonishing. Forget her sex appeal and everything else. I just looked at - that video for me, Judy, I`ve got to go to break,
but that video for me is so just astonishing. How do you do that to your own mother for how many weeks was she acting in that .
SCHACHER: She doesn`t care. It`s all about herself.
HO: And that just shows how far she`s willing to go to make sure that her own needs are met. Dr. Drew.
SCHACHER: All right, next up, I`ve got more from Jodi`s mother about the daughter`s behavior after Travis`s murder and later, Jodi`s been attending
- has been a trendy topic all week. We will highlight your tweets and Facebook posts after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI`S MOTHER: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time. I`ve had quite a few of friends call me and tell me that I needed to
get her some help. She would call me in the morning, all happy - and call me an hour and two later, in tears, crying and sobbing about something she
didn`t want to talk about. And that happened constantly and her friends saw it too. And they - I had one friend call me in the middle of the
night and he even called a hotline for bipolar people. He said, "Jodi is bipolar and she needs help."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau. Judy, Jennifer, Alison. That was Jodi`s mother, Sandra Arias, talking to a detective about the
problems she and others saw in Jodi years before she murdered Travis Alexander. Alison, if only they had done something. Last year, last time
we went through this, that`s what I kept saying, why didn`t the parents intervene? Don`t be in denial about your kids.
BEDELL: What are they going to do? She`s a grown woman. They can`t control her behavior and they can`t, you know, 51-50 her unless she does
something where she`s endangering herself or others. So, at that point you kind of just throw your hands up in the air - to commit the crime.
SCHACHER: Well, that`s what happened. It`s .
BEDELL: Exactly. And now we are here. So, you know.
SCHACHER: And Jennifer, she has a point, however, usually, and you can intervene, you can get people to get - to get access to help. There`s lots
of strategies.
KEITT: Yeah, but you know, when your kids leave your house. Because I think I have got a daughter that lives out of town. One of her friends
called me and said, look, she`s got problems - I mean I could drive there, I could go there, but like she`s a grown woman. I can`t literally take her
like she was when she was three years old .
SCHACHER: Yeah.
KEITT: And put her behind in a car and make her go.
SCHACHER: Yes.
KEITT: And this mother knew she didn`t have a relationship with Jodi. Everything that she has said spoke to the fact that the relationship was
strained and estranged.
SCHACHER: Until, until .
KEITT: So, she really didn`t know what to do.
SCHACHER: Until she committed murder. Then it was a great relationship.
KEITT: Exactly. And .
SCHACHER: Then she went through that manipulation.
SCHACHER: But Dr. Drew, how do we know that this was her maybe showing symptoms of a bipolar disorder? What if this was just her manipulating her
mom? She was crying because she couldn`t get something that she wanted? I`m sorry, I don`t put anything past Jodi Arias.
(CROSSTALK)
BEDELL: She`s been doing this her whole life.
SCHACHER: Exactly.
SCHACHER: All right. The father talked to detective about an incident that he says changed the daughter forever. I`m not so sure. Judy, I want
your opinion on this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAD: She doesn`t trust us because we are parents. And when she was in eighth grade, she got busted for growing marijuana with our tapper ware
putting it on top of the roof. We found it, we called the sheriff department. And they busted her. And then we searched her room. It was
the first time we searched her room. After that, she was so - she was kind of like - a sudden (INAUDIBLE). We were nosy parents and we were going to
search everything she had - so she hated everything from us and always has since then.
DET. FLORES: Wow.
DAD: And she was only 14. And she has never been honest with us ever since - and then we - when she had the house in Palm Desert, it was she -
we told her we wanted to come visit her, and she goes, where are you going to stay? She didn`t want us to stay in her house, because she was afraid
we were going to snoop through her stuff, and I go - hey .
DET. FLORES: That is kind of strange.
DAD: That`s just the way she`s been - when she was in Palm Desert, after that, man, that`s when everything - I don`t know - it`s been a couple of
years then, - ever since she`s been a little crazy for a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Boy, he understated that. And Judy, that`s exactly what you`re talking about, parents who are over their head with a peculiar problem
child. And I wonder your thoughts on what he said here?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, this is just the most horrible recipe you can have for somebody who is a budding psychopath. As you can hear, she denied their
parental monitoring. They didn`t try very hard, but she definitely was very secretive, was denying their involvement in her life. And it`s easy
for the parents then to sort of not see all of the warning signs. And I don`t agree, because I think that there were warning signs when she was
younger and the parents could have intervened if they had the knowledge. And they were more .
SCHACHER: And I wouldn`t be surprised if the way she treated the parents she treated really everybody.
HO: Right.
SCHACHER: She`s lying, manipulative, secretive hiding, Sam. She is everything was a game.
SCHACHER: But Dr. Drew, right, and the parents - but the parents did call the sheriffs on her. They did seem to try to implement some sort of
parenting to .
SCHACHER: But if everybody that grew pot on the roof ended up like Jodi, this`d be a pretty scary place.
(CROSSTALK)
HO: And that`s another thing, Dr. Drew. When you start involving yourself in growing drugs at that age and you`re a female, those are the signs for
anti-social personality disorder as an adult.
SCHACHER: Interesting. We had not thought about that .
KEITT: But when you`re beautiful, when you`re beautiful nobody pays any attention to it. You get off with a whole bunch of stuff.
SCHACHER: All right. We`ve got to get out. A reminder: we can be found on Instagram at Dr.DrewHLN, we are back with your tweets after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCHACHER: Back with Sam, Vanessa and Leeann. Last night we referred to Jodi as a sexy killer and subsequently 80,000 of you got fired up about it
on our Facebook page, Sam, and there`s more reaction coming in, tell us.
SCHACHER: Oh, I wish you could see it, Dr. Drew. This first question is actually to you, and it could be an excuse for you to get your brain out.
SCHACHER: Right.
SCHACKER: So just saying. This is from Theresa. OK, good. Reesa writes, "Do they have Jodi on any meds in jail? I continue to hear that she has
mental issues and surely, there are meds for it."
SCHACHER: It`s a great question, and when you heard the mom describing those terrible mood swings, there is medicines for that. They would give
her, she does MRI to get proper medical treatment in jail, they would give her that, if she were going through those sorts of swings, but much of what
we are talking about in Jodi are not things that respond to that kind of medication. Medication is an adjunct, but it`s long-term therapy, and
behavioral therapy, and I`m not sure she would get that. That would be for her borderline condition and there`s nothing for her psychopathy.
TWEEDEN: Nothing for manipulation.
SCHACHER: Right. The manipulation.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHACHER: Her lying, narcissism.
TWEEDEN: Exactly.
SCHACHER: Exactly. I have another comment from Darlene, and she writes, Jodi was like a drug for Travis. She represented all the sins he never had
the courage to commit.
SCHACHER: This is, in fact, that there was sex addiction here and no doubt in my mind, on both of their part. I mean you could call it what you will,
but Travis particularly, Abe, I think you might agree with me, that poor guy was sort of acting out this clandestine thing, not thinking that was -
almost disavowing it, because it was like so different than how he thought of himself.
ABDELHADI: Absolutely. And that`s the thing, too, the first - saying he didn`t have the courage to commit it. Apparently, he did have the courage
to commit it, and he had the courage to get out of it. Yeah, absolutely. He was trying to get out of it and she flipped out. So I disagree wildly
with that person`s assessment of him not having any courage.
SCHACHER: Yeah.
SCHACHER: Another one from Vivian. "Jodi acted out what many women imagine doing to the men who exploit and disrespect and then reject them."
SCHACHER: OK. Vanessa. Vanessa.
BARNETT: If you do me wrong, I - yeah, I want to put hands on you, I don`t want to stab you, shoot you, drag you around the house and kill you. But
you do me wrong, you`re going to feel the wrath of little Nessa here. It`s not going to go unnoticed.
SCHACHER: All right. But it seems like .
ABDELHADI: He is - you know, taking - yeah, listen.
TWEEDEN: How about you do me wrong, I leave!
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: If a man did this to a woman, it would be the high of - like everything would come to a grinding halt. If I can paraphrase Bill Boer
(ph), if I chopped off a boob, and through it in the drier, the president would come out and have a minute of silence.
When a guy it happens to - it`s a punchline. It`s almost offensive.
BARNETT: It`s no joking about how this man was killed. That`s not a joke at all. But it`s not as .
SCHACHER: Oh, there`s little - there`s little Vanessa come out.
ABDELHADI: It`s a punchline, it becomes a punchline when a guy is killed.
BARNETT: No, the Travis` family doesn`t think this is a punchline.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDELHADI: I don`t think it`s a punchline, but women love to make jokes about this. He was - in his little head and blah-blah-blah. That`s the
kind of thing you always hear when a guy buys it. If it happens to a woman, she`s sainted the next day by the pope.
That`s what I`m talking about, the hypocrisy here.
SCHACHER: All right. We`ll keep this entire thing alive and continue - pick it up again right here tomorrow evening. Thanks for joining us,
panel, good job. DVR us. You could watch us anytime. "Forensic Files" begins now.
END
