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New Details Emerge About Ottawa Gunman; Ottawa Shooting Follows Quebec Hit And Run; Shooter's Passport Had Been Revoked

Aired October 23, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. Law enforcement on both sides of the border trying to dig into the past of the gunman and interviewing people he came into contact.

Sources however tell CNN that there's no reason to believe the man, who shot down Corporal Cirillo in Ottawa yesterday is connected to any extremists in United States.

In fact, friend of the gunman told the "Globe and Mail" newspaper that he thinks Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was mentally ill and that the gunman once told him that, quote, "The devil is after him."

What's more, a former neighbor told CTV that the gunman had caring and loving parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLINE VAN, SUSPECT'S FORMER NEIGHBOR: I know that the mother was a very caring and very involved parent. Actually both parents seem to have been. The boy seemed to have had a very good upbringing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's Pamela Brown is here with more on this. Good morning.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Right now, we know that American and Canadian authorities are working together. Investigators are looking at the gunman's connections to other Islamic extremists, scouring his online activity.

This possible gunman, as you mentioned, has been identified as Michael Joseph Hall. Sources say he converted to Islam. He had a history of drug abuse. Canadian authorities we know revoked his passport after it was discovered that he had plans to travel overseas to fight.

According to sources we've been speaking with, at this point, the motive is still unknown, but terrorism has not been ruled out. In the wake of these two soldiers being killed this week in Canada in two separate incidents, the FBI here at home has asked all its field offices across the country to stay on heightened alert and remain vigilant. The concern among law enforcement officials is that we could see someone try to emulate this in the U.S., copycat incidents. We know in the past week or so the FBI and DHS sent out a bulletin to law enforcement agencies across the country after intelligence picked up chatter from ISIS member urging attacks against government officials including law enforcement and military personnel.

The top concern is lone wolf attacks. Carol, what makes this so difficult and the reason why this is a top concern is because they're so difficult to detect, especially small tactical opportunities.

Oftentimes it doesn't take much plotting. It happens with little to know warning. It's not going to hit a lot of trip wires so perhaps what we've seen in Canada is an example of that and that's why it reinforces a need to be vigilant here in the U.S. -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Pamela Brown reporting live from Washington this morning, thank you.

The prime minister and members of Canada's parliament began their day at Ottawa's National War Memorial honoring the soldier killed by that gunman. This is the last picture of the Army reservist.

You'll see him in just a second, Nathan Cirillo taken as he stood guard at the memorial in honor for a Canadian soldier. Friends are remembering Cirillo as a loving person, always looking up, always cheering up others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just didn't want to believe it. He's such an amazing person, amazing father, amazing friend. He rescued dogs. He was just an awesome period.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a hero. He's an amazing guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Cirillo leaves behind a son, who started kindergarten this fall. I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: This morning we've been watching an emotional show of strength and unity in Ottawa. Yesterday's deadly shooting followed Monday's hit-and-run that killed a Canadian soldier in Quebec.

Officials say the driver who was shot dead by police was a radicalized Muslim. Collin Demelo of CTV News reports police are trying to find out if there are links between these two attacks that came just days apart.

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COLLIN DEMELO, CTV NEWS REPORTER (voice-over): This is the small mosque where Mahtan Ruleau prayed, the radicalized 25-year-old started showing up here three or four times a week. Two months ago, he suddenly stopped coming.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got involved in the investigation in June 2014.

DEMELO: Around that time, RCMP and SESUS stepped up their surveillance on Ruleau, tracking his movements and intentions. Police say his Facebook feed started to provide clues that led to police action.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When we arrested him, he was on his way to leave the country. So we arrested him, we interview him and with the information we had and the statement he provided to us, we could not have enough evidence to charge him and to detain him, so we released him.

DEMELO: His deadly attack in Quebec certainly puts soldiers across the country in a somber mood and on alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does it make you nervous to wear that uniform today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not so nervous. You just have to pay attention to what's going on, pay attention to what's happening across the country.

DEMELO: It was just yesterday that Ottawa's police chief responded to the Quebec attack saying this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know from other incidents across the world that sometimes the uniform represents something. That's something our officers are always cognizant of, that they represent authority and law and order and they could be the subject of an attack or a target at any point.

DEMELO: The motive for the attacks is still unclear, but police will no doubt investigate whether one inspired the other. Collin Demelo, CTV News, Toronto.

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COSTELLO: The Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper says his country will not be intimidated and will remain on the lookout against more potential attacks.

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STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Fellow Canadians in the days to come, we will learn more about the terrorists and any accomplices he may have had. This week's events are a grim reminder that Canada is not immune to the types of terrorist attacks we have seen elsewhere around the world.

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COSTELLO: I want to bring in CNN global affairs correspondent, Elise Labott now. Elise, although much of Canada is surprised by the tragic events yesterday, maybe they shouldn't be.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, there have been a lot of calls in Islamic quarters and on Twitter and all since Canada joined the U.S.-led is coalition. Also what we've been talking about these last few days, we don't know whether this is related to ISIS.

Certainly it's inspired by a lot of Islamic activity and all of these western countries rising up fighting against ISIS and other Islamic groups. No one is immune.

I think that's one of the things that U.S. officials, Secretary of State John Kerry and President Obama said no country is really immune from this Islamic extremism -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Elise Labott reporting live for us, thank you so much.

I want to bring in Mubin Shaikh now. He is a former jihadist who went on to become an undercover counterterrorism operative and later an agent for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He joins me now from Toronto. Welcome, sir.

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about those two separate attacks in Canada happening just days apart. In your mind, are they connected?

SHAIKH: In my mind they are connected. We know that the two individuals were following the same ISIS Twitter accounts. There is some unconfirmed information that the two were in collaboration or in communication directly.

The question now is, you know, did the two of them act on their own or did the two of them act under direction from an ISIS operator, were they just implementing the directive that ISIS had put out to attack Canada, attack Canadian forces soldiers, and even down to the tactics to shoot them, stab them, run them over. We have two out of three so far.

COSTELLO: The suspect in the shooting yesterday, Michael Zehaf- Bibeau, Canadian authorities were well aware of him. They revoked his passport because he planned to travel to Syria to fight with ISIS. Should they have done more?

SHAIKH: The problem is when an individual looks to abscond the country. There is really nothing they can do beyond trying to charge him for the offense of leaving. The question that's on my mind is how is it that the police charged him but the prosecution determined that there wasn't enough evidence to continue with the prosecution?

That could have at least opened the door to detention, to other control mechanisms. But the problem is that, if an individual is looking to go, that alone may not in and of itself warrant surveillance 24-7.

That I think may change considering the two individuals who did commit the attacks were being monitored, were on a list. But I don't think they were being surveyed 24-7.

COSTELLO: I'd also like to talk a little bit about how this man was radicalized, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. He's a petty criminal, 32 years old. He was born in 1982, charged with drug possession in 2004, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 60 days in jail.

Several years later he's charged with robbery and uttering threats. That happened in 2011. The "Associated Press" interviewed this man's mother. She said she was sorry, but she had no explanation as to why he would be attracted to something like ISIS. Why would he be?

SHAIKH: One of the things that is important to look at is the history of the individual. You'll find that in the overwhelming majority of cases, especially with converts, they come from very broken backgrounds, dysfunctional backgrounds.

They might put on -- in their sweet propaganda videos that they put out, they might say I was a typical Canadian. I played hockey, I went to cottages. But in reality that's not their life. They come from a broken background, predisposed to committing violent acts.

Maybe because of drug use, and when they do convert, they end up converting to a deviant interpretation, which justifies this kind of violence against civilians, against national symbols. So there are many things to look at beyond just ideology. Ideology is definitely a factor, but it's not the only factor.

COSTELLO: One parliamentarian described this man as a nut job who just -- who carried out a deranged act. As you know, there are many mentally ill people, not only in Canada, but in the United States and in other countries. How can you possibly monitor them all and know which ones are more likely to attach themselves to a terrorism group?

SHAIKH: That's a very good question. I think the other issue is that, you know one is there is no professional diagnosis that he was mentally ill. Number two, psychopathology and mental illness in terrorism cases is very rare. For us, we like to -- we want to think that this is a job -- this is the work of a nut job or a deranged individual.

But a lot of times, you have to understand, if an individual has bought into an ideology, into a political ideology, when they're acting, they're acting in support and in furtherance of the objectives of the group.

To the rest of us, we would think, well, who would do that? For that person, they have a logic model that they follow. So it's always somewhere in between. We don't want to rush and always say that it is terrorism.

But at the same time, we don't want to say that it must be mental illness. We have to look at all the factors individually. We have to look at the individual by himself.

Like you said, in the U.S., you have issues with mental illness and lone actors and active shooters. These people are on watch lists. Sometimes they're not on watch lists. It's very difficult to find them.

COSTELLO: Of course, a final question to you because we only hear about the mistake, right, the people who slip through, the people able to commit violent acts. I always wonder about how many people authorities stop?

SHAIKH: I thank you for making that point. You're actually the only one that's made this point in all the interviews I've been doing. This is really important because the prime minister referenced the Toronto 18 case. I was the undercover on that case. I'm Muslim. I'm a practicing Muslim.

The VR rail plot, that was a tip from an imam from the Muslim community. Most of this intelligence comes from the Muslim community. If professional intelligence agency whose have these guys on watch lists can't stop them, the average Muslim guy in a mosque is not going to be able to stop him. Please keep these things in perspective.

COSTELLO: Thank you. I appreciate that. Mubin Shaikh, thank you for being with us this morning. I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: Let's end on a high note, shall we? You probably never heard Madonna's hit song "Like a Virgin" quite like this. A singing nun who won Italy's "The Voice" is making the tune her own. CNN's Jeanne Moos finds out if Sister Christina can rock like a pop star.

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JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There have been flying nuns on TV and singing nuns in movies. But Madonna is a hard act for a nun to follow. Could a real nun actually sing those words. No, she didn't. Remember Sister Christina from Italy's "The Voice."

Part of what she got for winning is a record contract. Her album comes out next month and her first single has just dropped. There she is in her habit and sensible shoes wearing a cross. No way you'll mistake the nun for Madonna with her exposed mid drift.

Echoing some of the shots in Madonna, the sister says she has no intention of scandalizing. She told the Catholic newspaper, if you read the lyrics, you realize it's a song about the capacity of love to make people new again.

(on camera): Sister Christina did drop one itty-bitty word from a certain line, the boy that Madonna is singing to disappeared from the nun's version.

It seems to be g-o-d rather than b-o-y that Christina is addressing. Sister Christina won't be getting rich off her music. She's taken a vow of poverty and says any money she makes will go to church projects.

She lives at an Italian convert. The song has been parodied by weird Al Jankovic, but something almost virginal about having it turned into a serious ballad by none other than a nun. Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

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COSTELLO: Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Michaela after a break.

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