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Dr. Drew

Jodi Arias Trial: Life or Death?

Aired October 23, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

It is day three of the Jodi Arias death penalty trial. Some of the first trial highlights were replayed along with more grisly crime scene photos of

Travis. Will Jodi deliver an encore to this?

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: He had to have (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sex with me. He finished (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on my back. I felt like a used

piece of toilet paper. Travis was on the bed (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He started grabbing at something on a bed. It was a photograph. It was a

picture of a little boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What factors influence your having a memory problem?

ARIAS: Usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me, it makes my brain scramble.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your memory was faulty upon shooting him.

ARIAS: Yes, things get foggy from there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The shot takes him down, and it creates a fog for you? Is that what you`re saying?

ARIAS: It begins to create a fog.

PINSKY: Mark, the fog.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, Drew. What are you talking about?

PINSKY: What`s happening?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Speaking of Mark, he seems to have emerged from a fog. Mark from SpeaktoMark.com is with us. Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, and

Evy Poumpouras, law enforcement analyst, former special agent with Secret Service.

Let`s begin, though, with Jen Wood from the trialdiaries.com. She was in the courtroom today. The defense showed more unpleasant photos of Travis.

Why and how did the family react?

JEN WOOD, REPORTER, IN COUTROOM TODAY (via telephone): Well, they showed pictures of his back turned in the shower and his eyes closed. And the

defense was trying to say Jodi had plenty of opportunities to attack him then, why attack him after the pictures were shown with his eyes open

hooking directly at her?

And the family of the Alexanders reacted by being very emotional. They were very upset. Some were crying after seeing Travis up on the screen.

PINSKY: Did they offer any explanation for why she did snit any other theories promoted?

WOOD: Well, the theory is that he attacked her. So, they`re trying to suggest that she didn`t attack him when she had all the opportunity.

PINSKY: I see. Lovely.

Sam?

SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Jen, how did the jurors respond to the photos? Did you see what their demeanor was like?

WOOD: They`re very engaged in the photos, just like they were during the medical examiner`s system. They`re really engaged in this trial.

PINSKY: Thanks, Jen.

Mark, what are the chances of a mistrial? We`ve had one juror called into the judge`s quarters this afternoon. We`ve had people being dismissed. I

mean, are they going to make it through this trial?

EIGLARSH: Nobody knows. In litigation, you never know. I think they have like six alternates because you anticipate people are going to get sick.

People may be exposed to the media reports. That very much could happen. Ultimately they`ll get to a verdict.

Whether they can agree as to the same decision, that`s something I`m not sure about.

PINSKY: Anahita, did you think there was ever a point in this phase of this whole operation where Martinez thought he might be offering a plea

deal or that was ever considered?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: I don`t think that was ever considered, Dr. Drew. And if I were the prosecution, I would not retry this case in light

of the fact there were four holdouts the last time. It wasn`t just one juror.

PINSKY: What would you do?

SEDAGHATFAR: What I would is offer Jodi Arias a plea deal, life in prison. Take that off the table. But there was no way that Juan Martinez was going

to offer her that. Now, it`s going to cost the state of Arizona another $1 million or $2 million to go through this retrial.

PINSKY: But a wait a minute, Anahita, I don`t understand something. If they go through this retrial, it`s going to cost $1 million or $2 million.

If she gets the death penalty, there`s going to be appeals and it`s going to be another million dollars, right?

SEDAGHATFAR: Appeal after appeal. So, I think it`s kind of a --

EIGLARSH: A lot more than that.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, more than that -- way more than that, if she gets the death penalty.

But, Dr. Drew, I can sort of understand why Martinez didn`t offer her a plea deal, because we all saw how passionate he was about this case. He

put his blood, sweat and tears into this trial.

And I think taking death off the table would be sort of a concession that he lost and he wasn`t going to do that. And we know the Alexander family,

they`re very adamant. They want death for Jodi, and the prosecution needs to take that into consideration.

PINSKY: Mark, you were critical of the prosecution for the way he invested himself in this. Do you still feel that way?

EIGLARSH: Well, I do. Fortunately, we`re beyond that, so I don`t have to say negative about that.

But what Anahita just said is the reason why perhaps he shouldn`t be making that decision. If he`s so emotionally involved in this case, perhaps his

judgment`s off. There`s no question that he believes she deserves death and so do many people. That`s not the issue. You want to guaranteed life

without parole. Otherwise, she gets on death row, 20, 30 years. They always have to live with the fact that maybe the case will be set aside,

the conviction will be set aside. You guarantee a life without patrol, case is done, everybody can move on and start to heal.

SCHACHER: Yes, but that`s not what the family wants here, I get that. Believe me. I`m not even for capital punishment.

But in this case, I want what the family wants. Can you imagine this entire time they keep going back and forth, back to court, they keep seeing

these disgusting photographs of their brother, of their son? Then they have to look at the killer`s face every single day that they`re there? I

myself personally would be driven to insanity or I would want to murder her myself.

PINSKY: Evy?

EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: Yes --

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: Samantha, it doesn`t end.

SCHACHER: I get it, I`m speaking from their perspective.

POUMPOURAS: It`s from their perspective and Sam is correct. They want to psychologically and emotionally move on and you can`t because this is one

of those celebrated cases, unfortunately, where we take these crimes, these situations, these people who commit these horrible offenses and we, what,

glorify them. We glamorize them.

I mean, she has followers. She has groupies. She gets how many pieces of mail in prison?

So, this family wants to end her life so they can move on with their lives so this can be done with.

PINSKY: Evy, do you think --

EIGLARSH: I know, folks --

SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think --

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: Folks, this is not the wild, wild west. You don`t take them out best and shoot them anymore.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right. I think if the issue --

EIGLARSH: It takes 20, 30 years to kill someone, if at all.

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes, and I think they need to understand that, obviously, they were willing to go through the retrial, but that is emotionally

toiling, as well, Dr. Drew. We`re not just talking about the taxpayer funds -- the resources that are going to be expended, but also they do.

They have to now sit there and go through these pictures and hear all this testimony over and over again, when --

EIGLARSH: And even in the appeals, too, right?

POUMPOURAS: They are making this active decision to do this. It`s their decision.

SCHACHER: Exactly, Evy.

PINSKY: The issue of the gunshot coming before the stab would was a big point of contention in the court today. Do you think the jurors are

interested in that?

POUMPOURAS: From a law enforcement perspective, I think it`s irrelevant. Does it matter which came first? And that also shows you that you can`t

also trust anything that Jodi Arias is saying. And even now, they can`t figure out what came first and what came second. You`re still dealing with

someone who is very deceitful, very manipulative, unfortunately.

(CROSSTALK)

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, it`s very important in terms of whether or not she gets the death penalty, because the idea is how cruel was this killing, making

her death penalty eligible? So, if she`s stabbing him, stabbing him first, he`s going through a lot more pain. If the gun shot came after, she`s just

topping off the killing. That`s why they`re making such a big deal about the order of who --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Anahita, last year we established clearly that the bullet went in but she was conscious and awake and maybe standing at the sink spitting,

you know, coughing out blood. There was patter all of the place and he was awake through all of this.

SEDAGHATFAR: And the jurors bought that. That`s why they found it to be cruel and death penalty eligible.

PINSKY: Mark?

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: The defense has to do what they have to do.

Evy, hold on.

PINSKY: We have this delay thing that`s killing both of you guys. Hold on. I`ve got to stop and go to some photos of Travis Alexander that drove

his sister from the courtroom.

And later, a juror from the original murder trial is here, exclusively.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must

have hurt, right? She gets her knife and she took that knife and stabbed Mr. Alexander.

One of the knife wounds is to the heart. When he goes down, there is a direct strike to his neck. She`s not done with him, yeah. He delivers

this shot to him. Somebody that`s already dead. So, she`s killed him three times over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau.

Dr. Bill Lloyd, surgeon and pathologist, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", and Danine Manette, criminal investigator,

author of "Ultimate Betrayal."

Dr. Lloyd, there still seems to be a dispute over which came first, the stab wounds or the gunshot to the head.

Now, I`ll show you something from the first trial. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At some point, you told Detective Flores you believe the first wound was the shot to the head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t recall ever saying that. I don`t think that`s consistent with the evidence that I have and I didn`t remember every saying

anything like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, the defense tried to convince the jury that the gunshot came first and that he was, I guess, not as cruel because he had been shot. But

first of all, A, why are they putting so much energy on this? And two, do you agree with me, if you remember where the bullet went, he could have

still been conscious and standing up and coughing up blood when she started stabbing him.

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Drew, it`s been a year since the criminal trial and many viewers scrubbed their memory as to what happened. But your

program and your team has kept the sequence of events correctly all the way through.

Even now at the last minute, the defense is still trying to rearrange the deck chairs. We know there were four stab wounds to the chest and torso.

There were multiple slicing injuries to the shoulder, to the scalp, to the feet and to the hands. Nine times he was stabbed in the back. He was also

stabbed in the skull, leaving divots from the bone of the skull.

Then, there came the gunshot wound from the top of the head, passed the nose, and living the bullet in jaw. And then, and only then, came the

slash the throat, severing major vessels, leading to his ultimate demise.

Why expose the jury to all that information and all of those photographs? Because they want to desensitize the jury and make them numb to the

ferocious nature of this murder.

PINSKY: That`s interesting. Want to numb them. I hadn`t thought about that.

Now, we`re here are some photos from the autopsy. Of course, there are many, many more.

So, by showing these sorts of photos, people become inured, they become numb. By the way, there`s a photo in this group of his head where it

specific complete hits that stab wound to the skull you mentioned, Dr. Lloyd.

So, the risk is -- is that a risk of making them numb or the strategy to making them numb? There it is, that`s the skull --

LLOYD: Yes, less should normally be more, showing just enough to freak out the jury to get them on your side. But when you overwhelm them, you can

desensitize them, you can get them thinking, this is really not a normal breakup. This is someone who is mentally deranged. And we don`t give

capital punishment to people who are mentally deranged.

But listen to this, Drew, Travis Alexander felt every single injury he received until the sound of that bullet, he knew exactly what was going on,

and he felt every bit of it.

PINSKY: Yes, Sam, I feel and see you reaction. So you could represent a juror. Does that make sense to you?

SCHACHER: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I could not imagine being one of these jurors, but we have to remember how this times has Travis` family member

seen these photos.

PINSKY: I feel like they`re feeling every stab wound over and over.

SCHACHER: Yes, one of the sisters had to leave the courtroom today. They all came in armed with these wrist bands today saying, "Justice for Travis

Alexander." Since 2008, they`re still trying to find justice, for their son. And Jodi Arias didn`t just ruin his life, she ruined their lives and

her own parents` lives, as well.

PINSKY: And, Wendy, I want to ask you about Jodi and her claims of being a victim of sexual abuse. Do you think -- was this something she believed,

something she concocted, as a defense or something that`s part of her borderline process, which is -- I love this man, he`s so wonderful, until I

step back and it`s convenient to say he`s terrible. He`s abusive.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, the truth is, most people with borderline personality disorder have all kinds of problems with their

relationships, but most of them don`t become murderers. So --

PINSKY: Wait, let`s state that. The vast, vast majority. So, let`s not cast border lines in the shadow of Jodi Arias.

WALSH: Exactly. However, what you asked me, is it part of her supposed sexual abuse as a child, is it because she concocted this as a defense? I

think it`s a little bit of all three. She`s a cocktail of dysfunction and rage and anger and he became the object of probably every false move every

boyfriend did in he ever life.

PINSKY: Danine, I bet you`re going to go more on the psychopath part of the spectrum where it`s like, it doesn`t matter what she`s thinking or

feeling, but serves her needs, she`s going for it.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: There is so much violence and anger in this crime scene, Dr. Drew. I mean, I always say when you shoot

somebody, you want them dead. But when you stab someone, when you slice them up, when you hatchet people to death, you really want to watch them

die.

And she was so enraged and anger. There was so much emotional and anger, looking at this crime scene, looking at those wounds that he had all over

his body. He had a cluster of nine stab wounds in one little area. That`s like -- you are really angry at somebody. That`s not getting somebody off

of you that`s attacking you. That`s I want to murder you and I want to murder you now.

PINSKY: Remind me not to get alone with Danine.

SCHACHER: Danine, never do that again, please. I`m going to have nightmares tonight.

PINSKY: But, Dr. Lloyd, I see you agree with Danine?

LLOYD: I agree with everything she said and also remember, this was totally planned in advance -- her movements with the car and the gasoline

and covering her footprints afterwards. This was not some spontaneous rage. She had this cooking for quite some time.

PINSKY: It`s interesting, there`s a much greater consensus, at least among the panelists this year, that that`s, in fact, the case.

Remember, Wendy, last year we would sort of -- leave at least the benefit of the doubt maybe there was an explanation, but now, we`re pretty clear,

premeditated, serves her needs, borderline disorder and psychopathy.

WALSH: No, and borderline disorder people are sadly, when they are in great pain, they`re more likely to injure themselves than others.

PINSKY: They`re more likely to be the object of an injury or injure themselves. That is absolutely true. All right. Thank you.

Next up, our exclusive with a juror from the criminal component of the trial, the original trial. Does she think Jodi should live or die? >

And later, the Jodi tapes -- is there anything about them that says normal? Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DETECTIVE FLORES: You need to come out and tell me why this happened. I will not accept any other excuses. Who did this?

ARIAS: I don`t know. But if I am -- if I go to trial for this, and if I`m convicted for this, whoever did this is going to be sitting very pretty

somewhere, glad that it wasn`t them.

FLORES: It`s my job to make sure that an innocent person does not go to jail. I don`t see an innocent person sitting here.

ARIAS: Travis has done a lot for me, and I wouldn`t hurt him. He introduced the gospel to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Oh, lovely.

Back with Sam, Mark, Anahita, and Evy.

That was Jodi Arias maintaining her innocence during a July 2008 police interrogation. Five years subsequently, a jury convicted her of first

degree murder in the death of Travis Alexander. We`ll speak to one of those jurors in just a moment.

But first, we want to discuss something that`s been trending on Twitter. Take a look -- this is a tweet that some on social media say caused juror

number 17 in the current trial to be called to chambers today. In our tweet, we clearly state that we were talking to juror number 17 from the

criminal trial. That`s the previous trial. We also put this tweet up at 2:45 p.m. Pacific Time. The incident happened at an earlier hour.

And, Sam, how are people responding about this on Twitter?

SCHACHER: They were pissed, Dr. Drew. OK, here`s a couple of examples. From Freelance Woman, "You all over there really f`d up. Juror 17

confusion today, #jodiarias." And passe12, "You really caused an uproar in court today. But we`re looking forward to seeing Tara."

PINSKY: All right. Tara, don`t call me, Tara.

Wait a minute. There seems to be a fog moving in.

SCHACHER: It`s back.

PINSKY: Is this a Twitter fog or a Jodi fog? What`s happening, Mark?

SEDAGHATFAR: Mark`s in the fog.

PINSKY: He can`t hear us.

SCHACHER: He`s unaware.

SEDAGHATFAR: He`s in a fog.

EIGLARSH: You know, Drew, I`m aware, but you know what? I take exception to all those who think that Jodi Arias is manufacturing a fog defense. It

does affect me occasionally. And you forget key things like, abhorrently stabbing someone and important details every now and then, Dr. Phil.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: I just hope that`s the worst of your memory gaffes, you don`t actually have something where you hurt somebody. So, maybe the fog will

clear and we can go on with our show.

Let me turn my attention to Evy, because she`s as crystal clear as she can be. Going back to the tape we just saw in the intro. Jodi says she would

not hurt Travis because he introduced her to the gospel.

To me, it made me sort of almost nauseated when she said that, because it just, again, another example of she`ll go to any length to defend herself

and have her way.

POUMPOURAS: So, you know what`s interesting? Obviously, I have watched these videos and throughout much of these interviews, she talks about the

gospel and religion and prayer.

So, I have to tell you, when people walk into an interview room and they start bringing up religion and the Bible and God, and the gospel -- those

are huge, huge signs of deception. I`ve had people walk in holding a Bible. As soon as you see that, it`s like, don`t even hook them up to the

polygraph, they`re deceptive.

So, those are actually things done by people who are liars. They`re trying to convince you of the truth. The truth is simple, did you kill this

person? No. Did you do this? No.

But when somebody uses God or divinity, they`re doing that? They`re trying to overcompensate. And who better to vouch for you than God?

PINSKY: Anahita, would you ever advise a defendant to come in with those sorts of extreme defenses?

SEDAGHATFAR: I would never advise a defendant to talk as much as she did, Dr. Drew. You know how much this angered when we covered the original

trial. She has been the worst client a criminal defense attorney could have, because what she`s doing is sabotaging her own case. Had she kept

her mouth shut, it would have done her a lot better than her just blobbing on and on through this tape, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: Evy, I know you`ve enter dated a lot of people in your line of work. So what do you see there in those tapes? Do you see somebody that

is strong in their conviction and is really manipulative than people you`ve interrogated in the past?

PINSKY: And was the interrogation technique appropriate, did everything they could?

POUMPOURAS: All right. So, with regard to what Sam saying, she`s not that bad. I`ve interviewed people who are a lot more hostile, who are a lot of

-- pretty bad. She`s not bad. She bleeds. We call it bleeding. Throughout the whole interview, she bleeds.

And what Anahita dislikes, I love as an interviewer, because she`s telling me all these reasons of what she did, how she did it, why she wouldn`t do

it. But she`s never really come out. She`s not very strong in her answers.

So, she`s very weak and very easily manipulated. You know why he didn`t get a confession? And I hate to do this, I never like the Monday morning

quarterback, that room -- the way that room was set up -- terrible, terrible, terrible. That table should not be in that room. He should not

be sitting. You watch this video.

EIGLARSH: Oh, I disagree.

POUMPOURAS: He`s sitting across from the table, that is not the way you do an interview. You want nothing between you and the person you`re

interviewing. You want connection and you can`t even see the body language.

EIGLARSH: Evy --

PINSKY: Mark?

EIGLARSH: Furniture didn`t prevent him from getting a confession. She did. She`s a world class liar.

POUMPOURAS: Negative. You do not know that, Mark. And that is one of the techniques when you`re an interviewer.

EIGLARSH: Really?

POUMPOURAS: One of the things they teach you, you want to see that person`s body language. When you have that table between you and the

person --

EIGLARSH: You move the potted plant over and she pours her heart out? Come on.

PINSKY: All right. Joining us, I want to bring in juror number 17, Tara Kelly. She was, in fact, juror 17 in the Jodi Arias criminal trial, the

first trial. And, Tara, the last time you were here, you talked about having nightmares, having pulled through all the same images of people

going through another time here.

Are you doing better?

TARA KELLEY, JUROR NO.17: I was doing better for a while, probably until a few months ago. And then, obviously, with the trial restarting and

everybody talking about her on social media and TV, and seeing her face, it just brings everything back and unfortunately, it brings back the horrible,

you know, evidence photos that we saw of what she did to him, which is a lot of what my nightmares are about.

PINSKY: Tara, you were an alternate juror and didn`t actually get to vote life or death for Jodi. How would you have voted?

KELLEY: I would have voted for death. I think that based on the evidence, it was so strong, that based on the evidence and with her on the stand as

much as she lied and changed stories, I thought it was very apparent that that`s what she deserved.

PINSKY: Anahita, you have a question for Tara? And Mark does, Mark, after Anahita?

SEDAGHATFAR: I`m just wondering why do you think that there were four holdouts? Why do you think four of those jurors couldn`t give her the

death penalty?

KELLEY: I think unfortunately, it lies with the jury instructions as well. It clearly stated in the jury instructions that it`s your own personal

decision. So whether or not you found mitigating factors, the fact that it says basically you get to decide whether you want to or not. I think it

was a way out for a couple of the jurors to give her life.

PINSKY: Mark?

EIGLARSH: Tara, it`s nice to hear from you. It`s been a while.

KELLEY: Hi, Mark.

EIGLARSH: Here is the question. I know you would have voted for death, hey, how are you, darling -- but there are many who say they wouldn`t, and

the question becomes, Tara, you`ve got your finger on the pulse of the jurors out there. Can you get all 12 to agree? I don`t think that you

can.

KELLEY: I think that`s really hard, Mark. And I think -- I believe in Florida, it`s the majority, I want to say, if I recall, which I think

that`s how it should be. I think the fact that one person can make it nonvoid for the death penalty is kind of unfair. So I think it should be a

majority. The fact that they are going to get 12 is going to be very difficult.

PINSKY: Tara, thank you very much for joining us. Again, next stop, you`ll see the Jodi interrogation tapes, how she tried to manipulate

police, but they of course were not having it. And later, she hasn`t said a word during her retrial, but Jodi is making the social media crowd angry.

Your comments after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most people would say, no, did you kill Travis? No.

ARIAS: Well, I didn`t, and I didn`t have anything to do with it. Now, do I feel responsible? I`ve been carrying around guilt since I heard about

it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you feel responsible? If you felt responsible, it means you know something else.

ARIAS: No, because--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your actions led to his death.

ARIAS: Because he always has guilted me. He`s always guilted me. One of the last times we spoke, he was guilting me about not coming to see him,

and part of my heart still wanted to go see him, and another part just wants to move on. I don`t know why he was killed. I don`t know why. I

had issues with Travis. If anything, he had more issues with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Wow! Just wow. Back with my panel. Joining us for the first time, Paul Mecurio, comedian, host of the "Paul Mecurio Show," get him on

his podcast on iTunes, Paul Mecurio Show.

In July 2008, Jodi Arias was arrested for the murder of her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander, and during an interrogation that lasted two days, police

were struggling to get a confession. And yet Paul, we know now how crazy she got, what a stalker she was, how manipulative she is, and here she is

blaming Travis.

PAUL MECURIO, COMEDIAN: As a former lawyer, I can tell you, the legal term for what you just heard is making crap up. Here`s a little advice for

anybody out there who is thinking of murder. When you`re getting interrogated, don`t use the word guilty in any context. Don`t I feel

guilty, I`m guilty I didn`t work out more, chocolate is my guilty pleasure. It`s not a good thing. She is manipulative, but I`m shocked, Dr. Drew,

that people are so outraged that she`s manipulative. Everybody manipulates. Human beings. Dogs manipulate for food. Women manipulate

using sex. It`s been done for centuries, for years. The caveman only invented fire because there was a woman whining, it`s too cold to have sex.

PINSKY: Paul, hold on, I think you and Evy must have been a set of twins separated at birth, but Evy thinks everyone is manipulative and evil, so I

bet you can relate to what Paul is talking about. And specifically I would be interested to know whether or not you read as much into the term guilty

as he did.

POUMPOURAS: You know, it`s OK, people do use that term, but it`s funny, as far as manipulative, people lie in the interview room. People would lie to

me all the time, every day and day out. It`s funny because there`s actual saw that says you can`t lie to a federal agent. It`s called Title XVIII,

1001, false statements, and I could never charge anybody with that, because everybody lied. The U.S. attorney`s office would laugh at me when I would

say, this person lied.

PINSKY: I`ve got to share with both of you guys, as a physician, people lie to me all the time, and I feel like my job is to figure out what is

truth behind it and just expect the lying.

MECURIO: My feeling on this is the fact that she lies and manipulates has sort of become this massive thing in our culture right now and in the

media, in the sense that men and women are looking at this through two different prisms. This idea of her sexuality and that she is manipulative,

women are angry about it, I think much more so than men and want the death penalty, almost jealous in a way. And I don`t know what to be jealous

about, because her life is over. It`s like being jealous of Lincoln because he had better seats at the theater. Meanwhile, men are looking at

her and go wow, she`s awfully attractive and cute, maybe we should just give her a life sentence, because men look at somebody like that and go

wow, look at the boobs on that maniac.

PINSKY: Sam, I think he`s right.

(CROSSTALK)

MECURIO: All of our attitudes about men and women are being played out in this trial.

SCHACHER: There is some truth of course, there is some underlying itty bitty truth. I`m not jealous. Most women are not jealous. We see

somebody that murdered her ex-lover three times over, and then the most frustrating part of it is how she`s sitting in court, Dr. Drew, and lying

about it, and not remorseful.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I want to hear from Danine. Where do you ring in on this? Do you think Paul is right?

MANETTE: What she`s doing in that interview room, I`m not listening to her words, I`m looking at her affect, the fact that she`s just so flat. She

does not get frustrated. She doesn`t get angry. She does not yell.

Anybody in a room being accused of murdering somebody is going to get mad, frustrated, evil, hysterical, something. Her affect is completely flat,

which tells me she`s very comfortable.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Or she`s sick. A sign of psychiatric illness. Paul, what do you say?

MECURIO: Listen, I don`t read into that. The reality is, you have a woman here who has clearly been manipulative all her life, for whatever reason.

The problem is, she`s become a celebrity defendant. When you become a celebrity defendant in our culture, you`re now famous. So one group of

people want you to get off easy because you`re famous, and the other wants to hang you by the highest (inaudible), and the reality is, people don`t

understand that it`s over for her. She`s been convicted of murder. It`s like -- people are acting like she`s getting off or something. She`s

either going to have life or the death penalty. It`s like watching the "Titanic" and turning it off halfway through and going, well, that was a

feel-good romance.

PINSKY: Evy, I see you thinking out there, what are you saying?

POUMPOURAS: I want to touch on in regards to her blaming Travis. It`s actually very common. It`s done almost always in the interview room where

the offender blames or projects blame onto the victim. And I would actually use that and I would use that to help elicit information. It`s

going to sound bad and very manipulative on my part, but I would blame the victim. I would say yes, the victim did something to entice you to do this

behavior, and then I would almost get on the side of someone like a Jodi Arias. And then that would allow them to feel comfortable enough to tell

me the truth. All I need is that confession.

PINSKY: Yes, but it`s very different, somebody doing their job, using a technique to get somebody to be honest, or at least to give them the truth,

than somebody who is manipulating to get away with murder.

MANETTE: I think if they had given her a woman interrogator, they may have gotten a little more information out of her.

(CROSSTALK)

MANETTE: She would not have done that coy little sexual energy thing to try and play the room. I think they would have gotten more out of her.

SCHACHER: And she is so lackadaisical about it. You mentioned the flat affect, but it`s her almost thinking she can talk her way out of it.

PINSKY: That is what she is thinking. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Paul, last words.

MECURIO: Listen, this gets back to my point earlier on about manipulation. I`m going to say something that will get everybody outraged on this panel

and probably at home. You can make the argument that this is unfair to her. There have been, since 1976, 37 executions in Arizona. And there

have been a heck of a lot more capital murders. So a lot of people have gotten life sentences.

Why has this case become so hot about the issue of death penalty? Because it`s become this media sensation, and she is -- there`s a sexuality about

her, and it`s polarizing. And on some level, you sort of look at it and go, well, why doesn`t she just get the life sentence and move on? She`s

manipulative -- all murderers are manipulative. They`re murderers, they`re not nice people. They`re not your postman, they`re not your priests.

PINSKY: I agree. However, the fact is what you`re describing is in fact what has happened and whatever the reason, we`re going to try to figure

that out.

Next up, my jury is here. We have -- what have they witnessed with Jodi in the past couple of days in that courtroom?

And later, it is your turn, we`ll hear from you about Jodi. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: I believe that it`s not okay in any circumstance to take someone`s life, even if you`re defending your own life. That`s how I believed it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I thought, hmm, was that an indirect message to the jury?

PINSKY: Oh, absolutely. 100 percent. I completely agree with you.

ARIAS: If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she`s basically telling the jury, if you think I`m guilty, I`m begging you to give the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Paul, Wendy, tonight we`re bringing back what we used to call Dr. Drew`s jury. Joining us Katie Wick, she`s been following

the trial from the very, very beginning, and Kinsey Schofield, she was in court today. Kinsey, what happened in court today?

KINSEY SCHOFIELD: Dr. Drew, it`s almost as if what what Nurmi lost in his weight he gained in his cajones. He`s a completely different attorney. He

is going after Juan Martinez. Just as aggressively as Juan has gone after him all of this time, and you`re just -- you`re seeing him actually

engaged. Almost as if he believes the BS that he`s spewing that he definitely didn`t believe during the last trial. I sat in on the last

trial, too. And he almost reluctantly said certain things and tiptoed around things. And he`s hitting it at full speed.

Today, he didn`t like an answer from a witness, so he threw the file down, and Juan Martinez jumped up and threw the file down to show him he was

still the boss of the courtroom and that he`s going to be the toughest guy in the courtroom. And it`s very interesting to see his transformation. I

hate to use the term swag, but it`s almost as if Nurmi`s got some swag below the belt.

PINSKY: And Katie, how does the Jodi of new compare to the Jodi of old?

KATIE WICK: She`s still a liar. I know there`s rumors she`s probably going to take the stand. And I was just -- she`s different. I think she`s

going to try -- we were talking earlier before we went on air. I think there`s a good possibility that Jodi actually thinks she`s going to get off

this time, not scot-free get off, but get life. I was listening earlier when she was in interrogation and all that. I was thinking, Dr. Drew, when

I went to this trial the first round, I always used to look at Jodi`s hands and I remember I used to say I always thought of what she did with those

hands. And when she takes that stand, I hope people remember when she raises her hand to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

truth, that people look at those hands and remember those pictures that were displayed today, because those pictures are never going to get out of

the family`s minds or anybody who has seen them, for that matter.

PINSKY: Paul, do you think some of the changes in her behavior is the fact that this is not live on camera the way the previous trial was? Or has she

just thrown in the towel in some way?

MECURIO: I absolutely think that`s part of it. But I also think you have two years where you -- to mull all this over and you start to realize,

okay, this is not going to work out the way I thought it would. It`s funny, because in one of her interrogations, she said that Travis is in a

better place and doing great. It`s like, yes, I don`t know, being dead in a bathtub after being stabbed 30 times, that`s not a good place.

PINSKY: Not better.

MECURIO: I would call that a bad day, but I think that the only thing worse than a lifeless murderer is a lifeless murder victim, and she should

remember that.

PINSKY: Sam.

SCHACHER: Kinsey, you`re in the courtroom. So to Katie`s point, when you`re there and you are staring at Jodi Arias, what is that like? What do

you feel?

SCHOFIELD: Well, again, I have to compare it to last time. Last time she would actually stare at me in the courtroom until I would look away, almost

like there was a contest. She was very confident. We have the obnoxious survivor T-shirts. She just had an air about her that she was a fighter.

That person is completely gone. Jodi Arias now is like a wounded puppy. She sits with her head down, slumped over. She`s defeated. That`s really

the only way I can describe her. She`s no longer that feisty girl.

PINSKY: Wendy, that could be a strategy, too. She`s so manipulative, every interaction with the external world is a manipulation.

WALSH: This woman is so manipulative, and she`s actually pretty good at it, if I can say that carefully. I think she knows that what she`s trying

to get at this point is some grain of the jury`s sympathy, and looking sort of defeated is one way to do that.

I had one question for Kinsey. I want to know about Jodi`s family. Can you describe for me their behavior in the courtroom?

SCHOFIELD: This is probably my least favorite moment is every time I look over at the family, and they have no reaction whatsoever. There are

pictures of Travis` decomposing body on the screen, and they`re looking forward as if their football team is kind of losing right now. They don`t

look like they`re ashamed or devastated or sorry for the family. That is what`s really frustrating to see that Jodi, did she inherit this behavior

from her family? Can none of them behave properly? People are saying that they were seeing her sister taking selfies, her brother sliding down the

banister. It`s a lot of really uncomfortable behavior from people that should be acting like their daughter might be dead in a few years due to

lethal injection.

PINSKY: (inaudible) very--

WICK: If I could say something.

PINSKY: Katie, real quick. We got to go.

WICK: Real fast, I just want to say, I think she`s hanging her head low because there`s more women on this jury, and she knows she`s not going to

pull the wool over their eyes.

MECURIO: Exactly my point earlier, that she`s got the women against her, and the men are going to give her a pass because she is manipulative and

flirtatious and all of that. That`s exactly right.

PINSKY: Thank you, ladies. And, Paul, thank you for stirring up social media. I`m sure they have your Twitter handle now and they`ll be talking

to you next couple of days. And we`ll be right back with your thoughts from Twitter and Facebook. And reminder, you can find us any time on

Instagram @drdrewhln. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam. Jodi Arias big on social media. Of course and you got lots to say online. We have a poll up tonight. Quote, will it be life

in prison or death for Jodi Arias? Here is the poll result. 27 percent say life in prison, 63 percent say death penalty.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: Wishful thinking. 10 percent, jury unable to agree, and of course Sam has lots of other social media comments.

SCHACHER: Oh my gosh, so many to comb through. I have one from Rita. Rita writes, "she is not mentally ill unless there is a new diagnostic

category that includes master manipulator."

PINSKY: It`s not just a mental illness. Even if she has some mental illness, like a borderline disorder, there`s something more going on.

Speaking of something more going on, if you see me putting gloves on here, the reason I`m doing that is it`s flu season, and you should all be getting

your flu shots. I know everybody is freaked out about Ebola, but you should be worried about influenza and enterovirus d68 and other, and taking

too many antibiotics causing bacterial resistance. These are things you should be worrying about. Do not worry about Ebola. We got that one. But

it is flu season. Time to take your flu shot. So, Sam very kindly agreed to get hers on the air to make the point loud and clear.

SCHACHER: Kindly agreed?

PINSKY: Yeah.

SCHACHER: No, I typically don`t get flu shots. I feel like for some reason that it`s going to make me sick.

PINSKY: Which you know it cannot. There`s only viral particles in here. There`s no virus. So it cannot make you sick.

SCHACHER: Where are you going?

PINSKY: I`m going to you. I`m coming to you.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: There`s proteins in here that cause your immune system to wake up and see the virus, should it come back.

SCHACHER: Look at you. He`s really into this right now.

PINSKY: I`m just giving you a shot.

SCHACHER: I know, but I feel like you`re enjoying this. Do I get to yours next, can I do yours?

PINSKY: I`ve had mine. Look away, honey.

OK there you go.

SCHACHER: That was no big deal. It is no big deal.

PINSKY: And we will dispose of this appropriately later. But there you go. So that`s how easy it is. I did mine actually live on Queen Latifah`s

show.

SCHACHER: Would you have allowed me to do you?

PINSKY: Yes, absolutely, there`s nothing to it. The fact is that there`s nothing to it. It`s no big deal, and I think somehow by showing everybody

that it`s not a big deal, that -- I`ve been arguing about flu vaccines for years, and suddenly when I did it on TV, people went, oh, yeah, I got to

get my flu vaccine.

SCHACHER: Why do they say because I read a thing that you`re supposed to do it in your nondominant hand? This arm, Dr. Drew, you did the wrong arm!

PINSKY: I`m just so glad you`re not my patient. That`s the most important thing. You`re my patient today. And if that bothers you, I apologize.

There can be a local tissue reaction. And you can get a little sore--

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: I`ll be fine. I`m not worried.

PINSKY: If you want to see that again, you can DVR us and watch it anytime. And of course, "Forensic Files" begins next.

END