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Hospital Gives Update ON Shooting Victims; Doctor With Ebola Isolated At NYC Hospital; The Race To Find An Ebola Vaccine; Brown Autopsy Leaked To The Press; Investigation: UNC "Paper Classes" Never Met

Aired October 25, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, hello again, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. We're following three big stories including breaking news on the school shooting in Washington.

You're looking at live pictures right now at the Providence Regional Medical Center in Washington State where at any moment the hospital is expected to update us on the conditions of the wounded students. We'll take you there live, as soon as it begins. Plus we're learning more about the shooter's weapon and one heroic woman.

And breathing a sigh of relief, another health care worker tests negative for Ebola, but now there are questions about a new quarantine policy going into place in two states.

Plus, terrorism, that's what they're now calling the NYPD hatchet attack. All right, let's begin with the school shooting in Washington State yesterday. We'll get to the hospital update as soon as it begins, for that briefing.

Today, the sheriff's department said it has completed the on-scene investigation and officials have recovered a handgun. We're also learning a school employee stopped the shooter! One witness described what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She like grabbed his arm, it happened in seconds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, we'll get to that hospital press conference as soon as it begins. But first let's check in with Dan Simon, who is live for us right now in Marysville. So Dan, what else are we expecting to learn today from investigators?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka. As you mentioned, that press conference is coming up. We're standing in front of the hospital. We should tell you that there are two patients here, two girls. Their conditions are said to be extremely critical after being shot at very close range.

You talked about that handgun that was recovered. That was a 40- caliber berretta handgun, high-capacity weapon and police recovered it at the scene. They're also telling us, police are, that they interviewed more than 100 student witnesses. Obviously a lot of people saw this shooting.

Again, just to reiterate what happened, this occurring at 10:30 yesterday morning. This is where the shooter walks into the cafeteria. This was not a random shooting, Fredricka. He goes to a specific table, knows who these people are, according to the witnesses.

In fact, two of the people who were shot were his relatives, said to be his cousins. So, it was clear that he was targeting a specific group of people -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Dan Simon, thanks so much. We'll check back with you. Again, that press conference likely to happen at any moment now at the hospital where two of the students are being treated and, at last check, in intensive care.

All right, one big question that remains unanswered, why did this 14- year-old freshman open fire on people that he knew. Some of whom may have been his relatives. Pictures on his Facebook page show Jaylen Fryberg liked guns and hunting.

But on Twitter, his posts showed that he was upset and may have gone through a breakup. He posted things like, quote, "It breaks me. It actually does. I know it seems like I'm sweating it off, but I'm not," end quote.

And then his final tweet saying this, quote, "It won't last. It will never last," end quote. So, I'm joined now by CNN law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes, in Washington and clinical psychologist, Jeff Gardere in New York. Good to see both of you, Gentlemen.

So Jeff, you first, to many, it may seem like a teenager upset about a breakup. Well, that's relatively normal, in fact, pretty common. At what point, though, does something like this seem to be a real warning flag for something much more serious?

JEFFREY GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, certainly from the Twitter account, we saw that he was very upset. There might have been some sort of a love triangle going on. He felt he may have been betrayed by someone who he called his brother.

I guess who may have been a friend or relative. Not quite sure at this point. He seemed to be obsessed with the girl that was taken by someone else, who got together with someone else. So, we're talking about a very intense love triangle.

But, you know what? Fredricka, things like this do happen with young people. It happens with people. You lose someone, but what is the difference here? Perhaps this was someone who had a lot of anger, a lot of rage, may have been very, very depressed and there was not some sort of a clinical intervention.

WHITFIELD: Jeff, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We've been waiting for this press conference to begin at the hospital in Providence. It's looks like it's just getting under way. I'll try to get back with you, Jeff and Tom, in a minute. Let's listen in to the Providence Hospital.

DR. JOANNE ROBERTS, PROVIDENCE REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: -- to begin the long process of healing that we're all going to be undergoing. What I can do today is update you on the identities of the patients, their conditions and their ages.

I have a statement from one of the families that they would like to read and then I would like to finish with a few comments about the care that we've been able to deliver here at Providence Regional.

So, if you don't mind. We have two patients here at Providence Regional. They're both young women, both are 14 years old. One's name is Shaylee (inaudible), who goes by the name of Shay to her friends, and she remains in critical condition.

The second patient is Gia Soriano, also 14, also remains in critical condition. We can get those spellings for you later. The Soriano family asks we make a statement on their behalf.

They said our family is in shock. We appreciate your thoughts and your prayers during this tragedy. Our hearts go out to the other victims and to their families. In the meantime, please allow us our privacy as we deal with this tragedy.

And I will tell you that the families are at the bedside. We have made accommodation for broader extended family and for friends in parts of the hospital.

A request right now is that the media and public respect the family's privacy and I'm sure that you all will. I want to thank again this community coming together and particularly the staff and doctors at this hospital.

Literally scores of staff members turned out yesterday suddenly when they were called upon. We had about ten operations going on. We had about 70 people in the emergency department. We were delivering babies, taking care of about 400 patients when we were suddenly called upon to take care of these four young people who came our way so quickly.

The staff performed absolutely flawlessly. The doctors rushed to the bedsides and I will tell you, I have never been prouder of this institution than I was yesterday.

And, again, I want to thank our community partners, Fairfax, the Everett Clinic and others for sending counselors over to support our staff and to support the families who have been affected. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) what you're doing for these two girls and what all that entailed?

ROBERTS: It's mainly surgery is fairly straightforward. It's debridement of tissue and doing surgery in a way that allows for the brain to swell and then contract later on. I will say that the next three days are going to be crucial.

These young people are being monitored moment by moment. They have a nurse at their bedside constantly. A doctor is very nearby constantly. All the neurosurgeons have rounded this morning and they'll be here rounding throughout the day.

But this will be a process that takes -- we won't know a whole lot more for the next two or three days. Let me get those. I want to make sure I have them here. OK. S-h-a-y-l-e-e. Last name is C-h-u- c-k --

WHITFIELD: All right, the names of the two young ladies, 14-year-old girls who are being treated there at Providence Regional, both of them remaining in critical condition, the two are among four, who are being hospitalized, the other two at another hospital.

One day after that school shooting in Marysville, Washington State. Let's continue our conversation. Dan Simon is actually outside that hospital, Providence Regional.

Tom Fuentes is back with us along with Jeff Gardere as well. And so, you know, Tom, let me go to you because when investigators try to figure out why this happened, the real motive here, while we hear about school shootings and sadly this country has become way too familiar with them.

This one doesn't seem to be in line with typically what we have experienced, you know, the gunman being an outcast, someone who had been bullied. That had been the pattern.

Now we're talking about somebody who, many have described, Jaylen Fryberg as very popular. He was crowned the homecoming prince last week and that while his sentiments were very public on Twitter, being frustrated about the possible breakup with a girlfriend.

What do investigators do with this kind of information? How do people really kind of wrap their heads around what is happening in our schools today and how our young people resolving conflicts?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: The problem here is if you're talking about somebody who has mental health issues, if they're suffering from depression, it's a very insidious disease and what happens is that -- what happens to normal --

WHITFIELD: Tom, I apologize for interrupting. They're trying to address these very issues at the hospital right now. Let's go back to that, and then I want you to resume your thought after we hear from this young lady at Providence Regional.

ROBERTS: -- we need to start thinking about this without thinking about my own children. They're out of high school. But I talked to one of my daughters last night and we talked through what would it have been like if this had happened at her high school?

And we were both crying and I think there's been a lot of tears among our staff, a lot of people are drained. That's why it's so important that we bring in lots of folks to help them out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me what (inaudible)?

ROBERTS: I don't know. That, I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To recap what their injuries were when they came in yesterday?

ROBERTS: I don't know the specifics. They were both head injuries.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were both in critical condition or --

ROBERTS: They're both very critical. They're both receiving similar monitoring and --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible).

ROBERTS: I think prayers right now. I would not -- I think both families need as much privacy with their loved ones as possible. I would hope that people would honor that at this point. I think we're still at the stage where prayers and hopes are the best things folks can offer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, thank you for coming today and we will not be having any more press briefings.

WHITFIELD: Joanne Roberts there at Providence Regional there in Everett, Washington. So Tom, back to your thought about what you do, what do school systems, what do parents -- how do you digest this kind of information when this profile seems very different from what we have experienced in recent years as it relates to deadly school shootings?

FUENTES: Fredricka, the problem is that it's hard for people on the outside to look at someone and really know what's going on inside their mind. We may look at them and say, here is somebody that's good looking, popular, athlete, elected to the homecoming court, being the most popular freshman in his class.

But yet on the inside, every little insult adds up, and you can't cope with it or the rejection of a girl that he wants to date adds up. And these things that normal children, normal adults, for that matter, learn to cope with rejection and loss and hurt. And try to deal with it as part of the maturing process.

But if an individual has mental health issues, such as, you know, severe depression on the inside, it may not show on the outside. But to them, they're ill, and these issues are adding up inside their mind.

WHITFIELD: And, Jeff, that's something that we have talked a lot about in recent months and years, too, mental illness. We don't know if that's the case here. But how do we help our young people? It does seem like that is the bottom line. How do we help our young people deal with angst, deal with rejection, or conflict without harming themselves or others? GARDERE: Well, we have to know what's going on their Twitter accounts, Facebook accounts and be able to discern when they are having some sort of difficulty and open the communication with them as to what may be going on and offer them the resources and the school should offer resources to be able to talk about the issues.

One of the things that Mr. Fuentes said that is absolutely true, there may have been some undiagnosed depression, but as you said, Fredricka, also this is a person who was the homecoming prince and had this -- seems to have this perfect life.

But it is that kind of very rigid kind of life where that person feels they really can't talk about what the issues are or they can't address it in a way because everyone sees them as being so popular.

So, the emotional insult of feeling some sort of a betrayal in their own view becomes ten times worse. And if the intervention is not made, then that person sinks further and further into a depression to the point of becoming homicidal and suicidal.

WHITFIELD: How terribly sad. So Dan Simon is outside that Providence Regional Hospital and, Dan, we just heard that press conference and the doctor very gingerly talking about, you know, how the family members want some space and how they are trying to deal with this.

As these two young ladies, 14 years old, are in critical condition there at the hospital. Do we have any idea whether their conditions have improved within the past 24 hours or is it the same when they were admitted?

SIMON: Sounds like it's the same. They did some surgery. They have severe head injuries as Dr. Joanne Roberts noted, it will be two or three days before doctors really have any sort of indication in terms of whether they'll ultimately survive this horrific incident.

You're talking about two young women who were shot at very close range by a very powerful weapon, a .40 caliber berretta handgun and so, you know, this is a very touch-and-go at the moment -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: OK, and then, Tom, how investigators will go about trying to determine a motive? How important is it for investigators to know that at this juncture?

FUENTES: Well, it's important in trying to prevent future acts, as Jeff mentioned. They'll be looking at his social media, Twitter, Facebook, e-mails. They'll be talking to friends, classmates, family, anybody that knew him well, to see, you know what exactly has been going on in his life recently or his home life.

Has he been bullied, you know, as he grew up? Was he receiving racial insults, let's say, over a long period of time? We've heard that he just was in a fight with a teammate on the football team recently and was suspended.

And that that might have had something to do with insults from the other person. So, those are the kind of issues that he may have been coping with his whole life but not coping well. And, again, it adds up and adds up.

And he may have felt that this girl, in her rejection of him, maybe she and her other friends were laughing at him and he felt humiliation and rejection and finally reached this point where he was going to do something about it in the best way he can.

Of course, we have a classic situation possibly of the availability of guns, in this case, his father's gun. We see him photographed with the hunting rifle, very powerful weapon in his hand saying three months ago that's the best birthday present I ever received.

So, he's in a gun culture. He's proficient, as we see. As he went up to these kids from behind and shot them in the back of their heads with a powerful handgun. And that's the result of this. So, you could have mental illness and available firearms all at once, again, causing a tragedy.

I don't want to blame the guns on this. We have the kid in Pennsylvania a couple of months ago stab a dozen classmates with a knife in the hallway. It can be another weapon of choice also. Just the aspect that we don't know and may never really know what triggered this in his mind.

WHITFIELD: Sad situation. All right, Tom Fuentes, Jeff Gardere, Dan Simon, thanks to all you, Gentlemen. Appreciate it.

Coming up at 12:30 Eastern Time, we'll be joined live by Dr. Joanne Roberts, who you just heard from at Providence Regional Medical Center with more on the condition of those two 14-year-old girls. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Now to new developments in the Ebola crisis, a New Jersey health worker has tested negative, but a New York doctor is fighting the disease at Bellevue Hospital.

CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joining us live now. So Elizabeth, what is Dr. Craig Spencer's status right now at Bellevue?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, what we've heard is that he is stable and that he is able to chat with his team there and he's also talking on his cell phone. So it sounds, all in all given that he has Ebola that he is doing quite well. This is a real testament to getting help quickly.

Also the other news here in this area is that New York and New Jersey says that when doctors and nurses go off to Africa to help Ebola patients, when they arrive home, they will be quarantined, a mandatory quarantined for these workers.

Even though they're perfectly healthy and completely unable to spread the disease, a lot of public health folks I've talked to say that this is not the right move and that it's actually going to make things worse. That people in Africa won't be getting the care they need because people won't go and help and more Africans with Ebola means that more people with Ebola will come to the United States -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: And then does it also, I guess, further complicate matters because the whole definition of the mandatory quarantine versus the voluntary quarantine, I guess, it's seeming to be a little interchangeable these days.

But if these people are under mandatory quarantine, does it mean they'll stay at their homes or will they be at a particular facility in New York and New Jersey if they meet that criteria that you just spelled out?

COHEN: You know what, Fred, we don't know. That's one of the things that's a little strange about this whole thing is that Governors Christie and Cuomo in New York and New Jersey said we're having a mandatory quarantine, but they didn't explain how it would work.

If you're having a quarantine, it's difficult. You know, just how do you get the doctors and nurses from the airport to their homes if they're going to quarantine them? You don't want them in a cab, right?

A quarantine means you should be alone. And do you pick their families out of their homes while they are in quarantine and what if they live in New York or New Jersey. What if they live elsewhere in the country? Do you keep them here?

There are a lot of questions here and no one's answering them. Do you post a police officer outside of everyone's door? You don't want to be quarantined in the homes so you are going to pick a hotel? Are you going to build a tent for these people?

I mean, it's completely unclear what they intend. I have been calling officials in New York and New Jersey from the governor's office on down and getting no answers at all.

WHITFIELD: And is this immediate?

COHEN: They didn't even really think to spell out when this would start happening. It's interesting, just to make things more confusing, they quarantine this nurse, who you were just talking about, and we're told from a friend of hers, who is a consultant, who is on CNN.

And she said she didn't even have a fever. Why were they giving her an Ebola test if she didn't have a fever and she wasn't ill? It seems like there's a lot of mushiness here.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, let's bring in our panel and let's talk more about this. Dr. Celine Gounder, an infectious disease and public health specialist who is heading to the Ebola hot zone early next year and Dr. Jim Campbell is a vaccine expert at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, and Elizabeth Cohen, of course, is back with us now. So Dr. Campbell, let me get your thoughts because Dr. Gounder, I spoke with her earlier about whether this mandatory quarantine would be useful and she said it would only cause more problems. What's your input on this notion, Dr. Campbell?

DR. JIM CAMPBELL, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, Fredricka, my expertise is in vaccine development and in the vaccines that we are working forward to try to protect people from Ebola so --

WHITFIELD: I'm wondering on this latest news if you have an opinion either way on whether it would be worthy or viable or necessary?

CAMPBELL: I think the important points have been brought up, which is, you know, what will that quarantine mean and will it have an effect on people's willingness to go overseas and to assist with the outbreak?

And I think those details we've not heard what those details are, but they're very important in terms of what the quarantine will mean, where people will be quarantined and whether or not we can come up with a system for people to understand that going overseas would mean that on return that it would require quarantine.

WHITFIELD: OK, so, Dr. Campbell, let's stick to your level of expertise on vaccines, we've heard lots of discussions publicly about whether there are a host of vaccines that are available, but they have not received FDA approval or they still have, you know, other levels in which to go before anyone can discern whether they are effective or not.

So how hopeful are you about the vaccines that are I guess still being researched now and how soon might something be available to help treat or you know, inoculate before anyone goes to an Ebola region. What should we be anticipating here?

CAMPBELL: Yes, so we are extremely hopeful. There are multiple vaccines in the pipeline, but two of those vaccines have had the most extensive testing in preclinical, meaning prior to human trials, and now in human trials.

And in the monkey trials that were performed for these vaccines, they had very good efficacy and in some 100 percent efficacy, where the monkeys were given the vaccine and then later were challenged with multiples of lethal dose of Ebola and none of them died.

And monkeys, as you may know, and great apes, are susceptible to Ebola just like humans are. So we're currently testing these vaccines in people both in the United States and in West Africa and in countries in Europe.

To date they're looking very hopeful, so as you know, WHO has now announced that tens of thousands of doses will be available in the near future for us to do additional testing.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, that is helpful, but Dr. Gounder, when we talk about hundreds if not thousands of people, who are coming down with Ebola in at least West African nations right now and many of whom nearly half are dying. Do you feel like this is happening, you know, fast enough?

There should be, you know, an expedited process on any of these vaccines and the testing, especially because people are dying very quickly in West Africa, if it means going to the source and eradicating from the source so that the spread would be slowed worldwide?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, FORMER ASSISTANT NYC HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Well, development of these vaccines is being dramatically expedited. The development and testing of a vaccine usually takes years and to have this potentially be usable in the field within the next year is really fast.

So it's important to understand that, but the other thing that's really key here is that in that time hundreds of thousands of people could die if we don't scale up our efforts to manage the disease in the affected countries right now and unfortunately that response is still too slow.

WHITFIELD: All right, Dr. Gounder, Dr. Campbell, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much to all of you. We appreciate it. We're going to talk more about this later on.

When we come back, we will continue to follow the developments of that school shooting in Washington State yesterday. Next, we're talking to a doctor at the hospital that just gave an update on two of the 14- year-old girls being treated there.

But first, each week we're shining a spotlight on the top ten CNN Heroes of 2014. As you vote for the one who most inspires you, who you think is most deserving at cnnheros.com. When this week's honoree realized that many families with autistic children end up isolating themselves, she took action. Meet Dr. Wendy Ross.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. WENDY ROSS: Going to new experiences with my son is a gamble. You are on edge all the time.

When he's having a meltdown on the floor and the whole entire store is looking at you like you're a bad mom, you just want to go and crawl under a rock. It's challenging.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I stay in sometimes because it's easier for him to be around all of his toys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm afraid.

ROSS: A developmental pediatrician, I do a lot of diagnosing of autism. When I heard my families were afraid to go out, I felt I need to find a way to help them. Every day experiences like going to a baseball game can be a challenge for kids with autism, music, lights, and the noise. There are a lot of unexpected sensory things happening. Are you ready to go? I work with the families to train all 3,000 people that worked at the ball park. Autism is a social disability so it needs to be addressed in the community.

We prepare the families with story book of experiences that may happen at the park and then we provide supportive game experiences sort of like a safety net. If you start taking steps outside of your door, your world gets bigger and bigger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One success means more success.

ROSS: It's about more than a game. It's about opportunity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hopefully there will be zoos in our future and aquariums. The world is our oyster.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right, this is breaking news on the shooting at that high school in Marysville, Washington. The Providence Regional Medical Center has been holding a press conference and right now we know that there are two 14-year-old girls who remain in critical condition there. Two other students are being treated at another hospital.

Earlier students shared chilling descriptions of the terror at lunch yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: He came up from behind and had a gun in his hand.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I saw three kids just fall from the table like they were falling to the ground dead. I jumped under the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Joining me right now on the phone is Dr. Joanne Roberts. She is the chief medical officer at the hospital where the two students are being treated, the two 14-year-old girls.

So Dr. Roberts, in the press conference, you mentioned they remain in critical condition, these two young girls and the family members are there. Can you give us a little bit more detail about the extent of their injuries? What kind of procedures they have had to undergo since being admitted there?

ROBERTS (via telephone): Yes, good morning. So when they came in yesterday, as you know, we had four young people come into our emergency department. We are a very busy emergency department, one of the busiest in the country.

We quickly ascertained their wounds. The three of the four young people have head injuries. All three were taken right away to the operating room for brain surgery. One was later taken down to Harborview Medical Center, level one trauma center down in Seattle.

The two girls were kept here because they need constant monitoring, nursing at the bedside constantly as well as the doctors nearby. Their families are with them.

Their families are asking that we all respect their privacy and send them their prayers while they sit at the bedsides with their loved ones.

WHITFIELD: So what's the road ahead in terms of their treatment if you're able to share with that, more immediately and then potentially even long term in their recoveries?

ROBERTS: Certainly. The next two to three days are the times with all acute injuries that are most crucial to monitor and that's especially true with head injuries. And that's exactly what we'll be doing with very close monitoring vital signs constantly, management of fluids and blood pressure to make sure that the brain has time to heal.

WHITFIELD: And, Dr. Roberts, when these students arrived, how immediate was it? In other words, was your hospital informed that these were students that were shot in that school shooting or was it a matter of getting that kind of information upon their arrival?

ROBERTS: This was an excellent example of when a trauma system works. We had actually done a drill with our Emergency Medical Services and our surgeons and emergency department staff about two months ago for precisely this scenario.

We all recognize that we're seeing more schoolyard shootings and we thought this could happen in our community and so we practiced for it. It occurred yesterday the EMS folks who were first responders on the scene let us know immediately.

They gave us about 30 minutes' notice. They had -- the police had to clear the scene. During that 30 minutes, we assembled four trauma teams. We had four trauma rooms set up, ready and waiting. Each team was about a dozen people with a doctor and a surgeon nearby.

As soon as they were brought in, they were stabilized and triage as to which go to the operating rooms first. Our operating rooms had been cleared to handle them and we got them into the operating room within about an hour after the first one arrived to the door.

WHITFIELD: All right, Dr. Joanne Roberts, all the best. Of course, we know the families there and the community incredibly grateful for the work that you and your colleagues there are doing at Providence Regional. Thanks so much for your time. Appreciate it.

All right, still no decision from the grand jury investigating the death of Michael Brown, the black teenager who was shot and killed by a white police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, but Brown's autopsy report has now been leaked to the press. It's the second major leak since the grand jury began. No one is taking responsibility for the disclosures, but what does this mean for the case?

Let's bring in our legal guys, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Washington this weekend, looking so dapper in tuxedo, I can't wait to explain why, and Richard Herman, a New York criminal defense attorney and law professor joining us from Las Vegas.

All right, Gentlemen, I think we're going to save that for the end. Explain why you're in that beautiful tux, Avery. So we got the drum beat going.

But meantime, let's talk about these leaks, you know, Richard. Is this leak an indicator, perhaps, if it's coming from prosecutors even, is it an indicator that maybe there is not going to be an indictment and so drip, drip, drip, leak out some of this information so that it's a softer blow to the community in particular or how do you read this?

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Could very well be, Fred. These grand jury proceedings are supposed to be private. None of this information is supposed to be leaked.

By the fact that it was leaked, the community has got to say what's going on with our government if things like this are being leaked when they're not supposed to be.

But what's critical here, Fred, is this, the officer testified at the grand jury for four hours. The forensics, if they're true and accurate, appears to corroborate their story and there were six black eyewitnesses, who also corroborate his version.

Don't be surprised, you know, they say you can indict a ham sandwich. He just may very well be a tuna sandwich and they may not indict in this case.

WHITFIELD: Avery, how do you read into this?

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Tuna? Listen, listen. There are so many leaks here you need a plumber. The problem is with the grand jury, the community is expecting integrity in the process.

And while this is a very unpopular view about this and they've been going ten weeks, Fredricka, they needed to expand this grand jury and start it all over again.

There were way too many intentional leaks. If you want to have integrity in the process, you have no choice, you have to get rid it have and start all over again.

WHITFIELD: Really?

FRIEDMAN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: How does one go about that? HERMAN: That's absurd, Fred.

FRIEDMAN: It's not absurd because -- it should be because, again, the community is not going to trust what the results are. There have been so many leaks that you can't trust the process and what does that invite? It invites disrespect for the law. It invites a sense of unfairness and the fact is it doesn't work. It's not going to work.

HERMAN: Fred, the leaks have absolutely nothing to do with the procedure that's going on behind the doors and the presentation to the grand jury. The problem is if there are too many different versions of the facts.

That jury cannot reasonably rely on a series of facts to come up with probable cause. I think that's what's going on here. I don't think there is going to be an indictment in this case.

FRIEDMAN: Trial issue.

WHITFIELD: Well, this is something that certainly is not helping to ease any of the concerns --

HERMAN: That's for sure.

WHITFIELD: It's stirring the pot even more, and now to Avery, why he looks so good. He looks good every weekend, but now he's got this tuxedo on. Richard, I know you know this because it's no surprise that Avery would be honored.

This time we're talking about the U.S. Supreme Court, the great room of the Supreme Court of the United States is where our Avery Friedman will be today.

In large part because of his service as the president of an affiliate of the American Ends of Court Movement created by the late Chief Justice Warren Berger to advance ethics and integrity and professionalism within the profession.

And, Avery, you can tell us more, but you know, we shouldn't be surprised that somebody like you would be honored because you're an extraordinary individual but congratulations.

FRIEDMAN: That's nice of you to say. Thank you, thank you. I actually think they may have lowered the standards this year, but we're very excited.

Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsburg is going to be hosting this event in a very short time so we're very excited, very honored. I think also the idea of what the three of us do in making sure the public is aware of the law and sometimes the problem with the law I would like to think contributed to it so it's something we all share together.

WHITFIELD: You are so sweet.

HERMAN: Congratulations, Avery. Congratulations. WHITFIELD: Congratulations. Well-deserved and you know, it is our honor. It's my honor that I have the two of you with me every weekend and that you all bring your expertise. You're smart and your humor. I love that the most every Saturday.

HERMAN: It's an honor and privilege.

WHITFIELD: Thanks so much. Congratulations to you, Avery. Well deserved. We're so proud of you. It is one of the largest cheating scandals ever uncovered at a major university. Details on how students got A's without even going to a class and what this means for their degree.

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WHITFIELD: The University of North Carolina is reeling after a report showed that thousands of students took fake classes to get easy A's. They are called classes never actually convened, students just wrote a paper. The eight-month investigation found that it went on for 18 years.

An adviser steered student athletes to the classes so that they would remain eligible to be able to play sports for the schools. I'm joined now by Gerald Gurney, the former president of the National Association of Academic Advisers for Athletics, and Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst. Good to see both of you.

All right, so Gerald, let me begin with you. So we're talking almost 20 years of this going on. Does this mean that graduates of this program should be giving back their degrees?

GERALD GURNEY, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF ACADEMIC ADVISERS FOR ATHLETICS: Probably not. I think from the NCAA point of view, the problem is more related to -- I'm getting some technical difficulties.

WHITFIELD: You're getting feedback?

GERALD: Yes.

WHITFIELD: All right. Let us work on that on our end. Mel, what should be the punishment? Because there will be some who argue, well, the punishment is a lot of these young people didn't get their education and many of whom might be struggling post-graduation because of, you know, that lack of education as they've already paid a price.

But then, you know, from a legal point of view what happens when they are going to their employers, and they're saying I earned this degree and now their employers are saying, you know what, you're a fraud. You actually didn't earn that degree. It was given to you?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR AND LEGAL ANALYYST: Well, you know, it's a really interesting question because you're talking about 3,100 students that went through these programs, and half of them were athletes, but the other half were nonathletic students. And I would think that parents or you know, students that are paying the bills, but in particular parents that are paying bills for these kids and sending their kids to UNC thinking that they're getting a real education when in fact they're paying real dollars to pay for credits that actually were never taught.

That's a potential claim, but I think the bigger issue here frankly is what's going to happen to UNC? I personally think if the NCAA, whose entire mission is about academics does not deliver the death penalty and send a massive message in this, they are irrelevant.

Because if academics is the mission and there were no academics, then there is no NCAA. And the other people that are going to be watching this case are the lawyers that have brought two class action suits again the NCAA that as of two weeks ago, a federal judge said could move forward. They're basically saying that these kids are working for free.

WHITFIELD: And Mel, just for clarification, when you say the death penalty that means their athletic program would be taken away from UNC?

ROBBINS: They should cancel the athletic program at UNC for a year. Anything short of that and it basically says we're a joke, we don't care about athletics, we're going to take away some scholarships and turn a blind eye. Two decades worth of cheating, forget, who cares? No, it's got to be something serious.

WHITFIELD: All right, Mel Robbins, Gerald Gurney, hold on. We'll take a short break and we'll be right back.

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WHITFIELD: We're talking about the UNC paper class scandal. Back now with me Gerald Gurney, the former president of the National Association of Academic Advisers for Athletics, and Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst.

Before the break, Mel, you talked about the NCAA must deliver a death penalty on UNC. Otherwise in your view, they're irrelevant. So Gerald, what say you?

GURNEY: The infractions or the allegations at UNC are egregious. They are long term and it represents the worst by far academic fraud scandal in history. It affects about 1,500 student athletes approximately. To give you some comparison, most recent big one was Florida State and that affected 61 athletes.

Unfortunately, while this certainly qualifies for some of the most serious penalties, it does not qualify for the death penalty. The death penalty is also known as the repeat offenders' violation. And North Carolina was not on probation prior to these allegations. So it doesn't qualify for the death penalty.

WHITFIELD: We're talking about 18 years, though. Even you have said it involves administrators, athletic administrators and faculty over this amount of time. There are an awful lot of people who are complicit.

Not to mention the fact that they went after the whistle blower and she's now filed a lawsuit against them and they tried to get the professor that was in charge of this charged and tried for fraud. So they knew what was going on.

ROBBINS: So there was a protection. They were getting upset. Those are being alleged to have gotten very upset that someone is trying to tell everybody and facing penalty herself, Gerald.

GURNEY: Well, I absolutely agree that this penalty should be among the most serious infractions and sanctions of the most serious kind. It just simply doesn't mean the death penalty.

WHITFIELD: All right --

GURNEY: With respect to the NCAA, they've been very inconsistent in how they deal with infractions.

WHITFIELD: OK. We'll have to leave it there. Gerald Gurney, Mel Robbins, thanks so much to both of you. Appreciate it. More right after this.

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