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Tragedy in Marysville; Ebola Detectives at Work; Is ISIS Triggering Lone Wolf Attacks?; School Shooter Kills a Student and Himself; Doctor with Virus in NYC Hospital; Ebola Cases and Death Rate Up; Girls Lured by ISIS; Goodell to Testify at Rice Appeal

Aired October 25, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, hello again, everyone. I'm Frederica Whitfield.

We begin in Marysville, Washington, a community in so much pain today after a school shooting. We just learned in the last hour that two 14-year-old girls are being treated at one hospital and they are in critical condition. And the chief medical officers said this has been incredibly difficult and emotional for the staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOANNE ROBERTS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, PROVIDENCE REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We've seen tears, we've seen anger. They are just -- just grieving. Right now I think they are just settled in. Things are quiet. They know the circumstances. They're hoping for the best. But the next three days are going to be crucial. These young people are being monitored moment by moment. They have a nurse at their bedside constantly. A doctor is very nearby constantly.

All the neurosurgeons have rounded this morning and they'll be here rounding throughout the day. But this will be a process. It takes -- we won't know a whole lot more for the next two or three days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Two other victims are being treated at a second hospital and earlier today that hospital said a 14-year-old boy is still in serious condition and a 15-year-old boy is in critical condition.

Witnesses say 14-year-old Jaylen Fryberg opened fire in his high school cafeteria yesterday morning. One girl was killed and Fryberg shot and killed himself.

Our Susan Candiotti is live for us in Everett, Washington, outside Providence Regional Medical Center, where the two 14-year-old girls are being treated.

Susan, what else are you learning there?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, students of course and this entire community still reeling from what happened at the high school on Friday afternoon. No one could have expected it and it will take some time for them to recover from it.

I was speaking with a student who was a junior at the high school who told me -- and this is pretty chilling -- that he had a conversation with the suspect in this case at the beginning of the day. He said that Jaylen Fryberg appeared perfectly normal, content, although they did discuss that he had recently returned from school after a suspension.

Remember, authorities don't know what the motive is in this case at this time, but this is one thing that we'll be looking at. He was suspended according to witnesses after he got into a fight at a football practice with someone who had made some comments to him, allegedly comments that amounted to bullying. Some call them racist comments. And this is what the junior told me about his brief conversation with the shooter yesterday morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN HECKENDORF, FRIEND OF JAYLEN FRYBERG: It was a moment just to kind of follow up on what was going on in his life. Like I said, I wasn't -- I'm not -- haven't ever been that close to him but, you know, I've spoken with him and talk to him like I do to other people that I see around school. And, you know, I just told him, like I said, to talk to me, come talk to me if he ever needs anything.

And, you know, in these final words that he said to me about what had happened with the -- with the fight, he said it was an act of anger or it was an act of aggression and he should have used his words. And those were the last words that he had really spoken to me and it really hit me pretty hard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: And yet the suspected shooter in this case was also the prince of homecoming recently and is described as a leader in the school. People don't understand what might have led to this. But among other things they're looking at recent tweets that he left or social media comments that might give authorities some clues about what happened here.

The school meantime closed for the week, no school activities, they've been cancelled, too, as this community tries to come together after what happened. Obviously it will take some time to heal -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And, Susan, what about Jaylen Fryberg's family? What if anything are they willing to elaborate on in terms of his behavior leading up to yesterday and even now after the shooting?

CANDIOTTI: Well, they're not saying anything at this time, at least his immediate family. Lives on a Native American Reservation, Tulalip, in the area. And although a grandfather of one of the shooting victims did speak outside a church service on Friday night and said that it's hard for them to comprehend what happened since at least two of the shooting victims are relatives of this young man.

So everyone is trying to wrap their arms around what happened here. No one has any answers. It's very difficult.

Now a law enforcement source also tells me that the 40 caliber handgun that was used, a semiautomatic handgun, belonged to the father. So this is also something that authorities are looking into.

WHITFIELD: All right, Susan Candiotti, keep us posted there from Everett, Washington. Appreciate it.

All right. Still ahead, what it takes to track down people who may have come into contact with Dr. Craig Spencer, the infected Ebola patient. We'll go live to the CDC in Atlanta to catch up with the Ebola detectives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A bit of some good news today on the Ebola front. A New Jersey health worker who just got back from West Africa has tested negative for the deadly virus. But the a doctor who returned from the hot zone is still isolated in a New York hospital with Ebola.

CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is outside Bellevue Hospital where Dr. Craig Spencer is being treated.

So, Elizabeth, first, how is he doing?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We're told, Fredricka, that Dr. Spencer is in stable condition, that he's able to chat on his cell phone. That all in all he has a terrible virus, of course, but he's in pretty good shape.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN (voice-over): Two of the most populated states, New York and New Jersey, are stepping up their efforts against Ebola, announcing a possible quarantine or hospitalization for any airline passenger coming in from a West African nation hit hard by the deadly virus. A mandatory quarantine would go into effect for travelers who had direct contact with an infected person.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: We will establish an interview and screening process to determine an individual's risk level by considering the geographic area of origin and the level of exposure to the virus.

DR. HOWARD ZUCKER, ACTING COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: There is no cause for alarm.

COHEN: This new development comes as New York City health officials continue to urge calm as they look for anyone who had contact with Dr. Craig Spencer, the city's first Ebola patient.

DR. MARY TRAVIS BASSETT, NYC HEALTH COMMISSIONER: The patient continues to be stable at Bellevue Hospital where he remains hospitalized on the isolation unit.

COHEN: The 33-year-old doctor returned to the U.S. last week after treating Ebola patients in Guinea with Doctors Without Borders. Three people who had contact with Dr. Spencer have been quarantined, including his fiancee who will be monitored for symptoms over the next 21 days.

And as hazmat crews work to decontaminate his apartment, city officials are retracing Dr. Spencer's steps and alerting all who may have come in contact with him.

BASSETT: We want to find every person with whom he may have been in contact. We want to account for all of his time, from the time he developed symptoms.

COHEN: On Wednesday, just one day before his diagnosis with Ebola, he was out and about in New York, visiting a Brooklyn bowling alley, going for a jog and riding the subway.

The Metropolitan Transit Authority released a statement listing their procedures about isolating and disinfecting rail cars to help calm New York commuters, adding that it's safe to travel.

This amid good news from the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Dallas nurse Nina Pham is Ebola free.

NINA PHAM, EBOLA SURVIVOR: This illness and this whole experience has been a very stressful and challenging for me and for my family. Although I no longer have Ebola, I know that it may be a while for I have my strength back.

COHEN: The NIH director said no experimental drugs were given to Pham while under their care. Exactly when or why she turned the corner is hard to pinpoint but that the blood transfusion from cured Ebola patient Dr. Kent Brantly could have been a factor.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: Certainly that could be the case but remember when you have so many separate factors at the same time going into the care of a patient and the end is one for this patient, it's virtually impossible to say that this is the thing that did it and this is the thing that didn't do it.

COHEN: Pham was invited to the White House where she received a hug from President Obama in the Oval Office.

And Atlanta's Emory Hospital reports that the other Dallas caregiver to contract Ebola, Amber Vinson, test no longer detected the virus in her blood she remains under close watch.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: So I've been talking to brave -- I've been talking to brave doctors and nurses who risked their lives to go to West Africa to take care of Ebola patients. And they say that they won't do it again if they think -- if they know that they're going to be quarantined when they arrive back in New York and New Jersey.

They say, look, we've, you know, taken a month off or so to take care of folks in Africa. To have another three weeks where we can't take care of our patients at home, we can't see our families, that would be too much -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Wow. Another potential setback.

Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much.

Elizabeth, stick around because we want to bring in Dr. Celine Gounder, an infectious disease and public health specialist.

So, Dr. Gounder, when you see Nurse Pham, you know, who is being discharged and you heard, you know, Dr. Fauci say that she actually didn't even get one of the experimental drugs. And it's hard to pinpoint exactly why she was able to turn the -- turn the corner.

So what does this tell you about the way in which the U.S. can handle or can treat Ebola patients? Because it seems like there isn't like a straight line method. It really does vary, doesn't it?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: Well, I think if a patient is identified, diagnosed, and comes to medical attention promptly, and that supportive measures are administered, Ebola is treatable in this country. Not everyone is going to die, far from that. And the only person in this country who's died from Ebola so far is Thomas Eric Duncan. And remember, he presented to the emergency room at Dallas Health Presbyterian, was sent away, and then comes back two days later.

So there was a tremendous delay in starting his treatment. But I think our supportive measures, our intensive care units, critical care, all of that is really essential to treating Ebola patients.

WHITFIELD: So it's fair to say that hospital really failed him because they didn't identify what or fully assess everything that he had presented, whether, you know, his condition or even the information he gave them. And they didn't know what to do or how to identify it. But now you have a host of hospitals across the country. All we know there are four biocontainment hospitals. You've got a number of hospitals in many states that are saying we can handle an Ebola patient.

How do those hospitals say that confidently so that people understand and believe them when they say that they're ready?

GOUNDER: Well, I think you're going to see a similar approach to what's been taken in New York state. In New York state, a number of different hospitals have been identified as Ebola referral centers. So for example, here in New York City, you have Bellevue, of course, you also have Mount Sinai, New York Presbyterian, and others.

And what the advantage of doing that is then the CDC can target its training efforts at those specific hospitals. These are hospitals that are tertiary care centers, which means that they have, you know, ICUs, intensive care units and other high level of care. And so that way we can also assure that the appropriate protocols and guidelines are being followed. WHITFIELD: So, then, Elizabeth, in New York I believe it's eight

hospitals have made it very public that they can handle Ebola patients, you know, Bellevue included there, and some of the others that Dr. Gounder just mentioned.

But when you have the states like New Jersey and New York who take it upon themselves apparently to say we're going to issue these mandatory quarantines for medical workers who are coming from abroad, from these West African hot spots and coming into these states, mandatory 21-day evacuations, it almost -- I mean, mandatory quarantines, it almost sounds as though there is no longer that cooperation on a local and federal level.

Might that be problematic?

COHEN: Well, I think there's two difference things that we're talking about. One is New Jersey and New York's desire to quarantine perfectly healthy health care workers who couldn't give anyone Ebola, whether that's really a smart decision. And the second thing is once someone does have Ebola, whether it's a health care worker or someone else, remember Thomas Eric Duncan, the first patient, was not a health care worker, who is ready to handle it and who is not ready to handle it.

And I think, you know, Dr. Gounder said it well, like some hospitals have drilled and have prepared, are ready for it, have received training from the CDC and other places, and have thought through the best way to do this.

I would add one more thing, is that you need to have a staff, particularly a nursing staff, that wants to do this. You need to have a staff that feels comfortable that they know the precautions to take. At Emory and Nebraska, from what we've seen, those nurses felt comfortable. They were part of a team, they felt prepared. You have to have a staff that feels prepared. They are the ones who are risking their lives.

WHITFIELD: All right, Elizabeth Cohen, Dr. Celine Gounder, thanks so much, ladies. Appreciate it.

Not far away, a hatchet attack in New York now officially ruled an act of terror. And that raises new concerns about lone wolf attacks and how to stop that.

We're going to about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. New questions about a hatchet attack on a group of New York City police officers now called an act of terror. They say the attacker, Zale Thompson, was a self-radicalized convert to Islam but was not tied to any terror group. He charged the police officers with a hatchet, Thursday, striking one of them in the back of the head. The officer is still in critical condition.

Well, this attack, along with this week's fatal shooting and a deadly hit-and-run on soldiers in Canada is -- all of this is kind of ramping up fears of more lone wolf attacks.

Listen to what Matthew Olson, the former director of the National Counterterrorism Center, told CNN's Jim Sciutto.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW OLSON, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I would say the most likely type of attack is one of these homegrown violent extremists or, you know, lone offenders in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Joining me right now, George Michael, an associate professor of Criminal Justice at Westfield State University and author of "Lone Wolf Terror."

All right. Good to see you. Well, do you agree with that? That the risk of a lone wolf attack is now greater today with the rise of ISIS?

GEORGE MICHAEL, AUTHOR, "LONE WOLF TERROR": Yes, I certainly would agree with that. There are a number of factors that are really contributed to this lone wolf trend. For one thing it's more difficult for established terrorist groups to mound operations because there's really been massive homeland security apparatus erected after 9/11. Moreover, there's much more intrusive surveillance so technology works against a lot of these established terrorist groups.

On the other hand, these terrorist movements have taken advantage of the Internet and other forms of the new media and they're able to exhort people who sympathize with their message to commit acts of terrorism based on their own initiative without any guidance from a formal command-and-control structure.

WHITFIELD: So do you think this is really like the strategy of a group like ISIS, you know, to try to appeal to someone who is bold enough to do it on their own or ISIS and groups like it have just become kind of benefactors of people who are enamored by the idea or, you know, their interest is sparked by way of what they're seeing from ISIS and other groups, and they decide to just take it upon themselves with no direct affiliation with a group, and then just carry out an attack?

MICHAEL: Well, both things that you said are true. On the one hand, groups like the Islamic State and al Qaeda, they do have outreach programs. For example, al Qaeda has an online English magazine called "Inspire." Americans are featured prominently in the production of that, people like the late Anwar al-Awlaki and Adam Gadan. So, yes, they make a choice, they make a decision to reach out to these sympathizers.

On the other hand, a lot of these lone wolf terrorists they follow events around the world, for example, U.S. airstrikes in Syria and they -- some of them become radicalized, they're disaffected by these policies and they undertake these attacks on their own initiative.

WHITFIELD: So certainly this makes it a lot more difficult for law enforcement counterterrorism groups, right, to identify, you know, this lone wolf, to identify and spot whether someone is up to something before it actually happens.

MICHAEL: Yes, I agree. Because when there are fewer people involved, it's less likely that the plot is going to be foiled by intelligence. On the other hand, these lone wolves do not live in a vacuum. Often times they express their views on platforms such as Facebook. They come into contact with people with whom they work, their family members, and so often times there --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: And so boasting or bragging ends up setting a red flag possibly?

MICHAEL: Yes. Absolutely.

WHITFIELD: All right. George Michael, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

MICHAEL: Thank you, ma'am.

WHITFIELD: All right. Still to come, just days ago Jaylen Fryberg was named homecoming prince at his high school. So what turned the popular freshman into a killer? We'll have the latest on the school shooting in Washington state, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Mortgage rates inched up this week. Have a look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Bottom of the hour now. Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Here are the top stories crossing the CNN news desk right now.

Good news in New Jersey. The health care worker quarantined after returning from treating Ebola patients in West Africa has tested negative for the virus.

And Dr. Craig Spencer is in stable condition today in a New York City hospital. He tested positive for the virus days after returning from West Africa. Now the CDC is trying to find out who may have come into contact with the doctor before he was hospitalized.

In Washington state, disbelief and grief after a popular freshman opened fire in a high school cafeteria killing one student and critically injuring four others. Witnesses described the panic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He came up from behind. And had a gun in his hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw three kids just fall from the table like they were falling from the ground dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I jumped under the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: A school employee tried to stop the shooter, Jaylen Fryberg, briefly grabbing his arm before the 14-year-old student killed himself.

And we just learned the names of two victims of Friday's school shooting. Dr. Joanne Roberts says they are both in critical condition with head injuries.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOANNE ROBERTS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, PROVIDENCE REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We have two patients that remain here at Providence Regional. They're both young women, both are 14 years old. One's name is Shaylee Chuckulnaskit. Shaylee goes by the name of Shea to her friends and she remains in critical condition. The second patient is Gia Soriano, also 14 and also remains in critical condition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And now the question, why? Or what turned the popular student into a killer? Some signs may point to his activity online.

CNN's Kyung Lah investigates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Social media shows two images of Jaylen Fryberg. A popular kid. Friendly. Fryberg's Facebook account shows his active engagement and pride with the Native American Tulalip tribe. He loved the outdoors. Smiling here fishing on a boat and in other pictures hunting.

This picture on Instagram shows him holding a rifle. This is not a weapon believed to have been used in the fatal school shooting. Fryberg seems to love his family, writing, "Probably the best birthday present ever, I just love my parents."

But turn to Twitter and a second more troubling images appears. In recent months, the freshman tweeted multiple times a day, "It breaks me. It actually does. I know it seems like I'm sweating it off, but I'm not. And I never will be able to. I'm tired of this expletive. I'm so expletive done." And 34 hours before today's shootings he sent this, "It won't last -- it will never last."

Frankie Pina, a friend of Marysville shooter, Jaylen Fryberg, told CNN that this horrific incident came out of nowhere.

FRANKIE PINA, FRIEND OF SHOOTER (via telephone): Heard he's like his girlfriend broke up with him and -- I mean, the tweets that everyone was like has been re-tweeting throughout the past couple of days like their conversation has been pretty -- like pretty brutal, honestly. So that could have been affecting it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Kyung Lah reporting.

And now to the latest Ebola case in the U.S. Health officials are actively tracing all the people who may have had contact with Dr. Craig Spencer.

Nick Valencia is live for us now at the CDC in Atlanta.

So, Nick, how is the progress on being able to locate all of these people that he may have had contact with?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, it's certainly a race against the clock for the CDC medical detectives who are tasked to try to figure out who may have had contact with this 33-year-old New York Dr. Craig Spencer. And the process of contact tracing really starts with Patient Zero, or in this case Spencer. They try to figure who he -- who's he come into direct contact with, where he may have been.

From there, they do want to do two things. They either isolate and quarantine those contacts or they deem them not a risk to the public safety and they may monitor them for this 21-day incubation period, checking in on them, making sure that their fever doesn't spike things like that.

We know in Spencer's case that he had at least three direct contacts, including his fiancee and two friends, and now health officials in the county there say that they are being quarantined, that they are being monitored, and that so far they're doing well -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: So you're in the CDC near Emory University Hospital where Nurse Amber Vinson is also being treated now. What is her condition when she was brought there from Dallas?

VALENCIA: Well, yesterday we got -- we got the latest update. Yes, she's one of two Dallas nurses who contracted that Ebola virus while treating Thomas Eric Duncan, the Liberian who subsequently died from that virus. And we know about Amber Vinson is that her latest round of blood tests came back clear of having the Ebola virus.

Having said that, though, Fred, we don't know if the -- her release is imminent, if it will happen or not. And really, the releases about her condition have been sparse from Emory Hospital. Yesterday being the latest update that we got. We'll be sure to stay on her condition throughout the week -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nick Valencia, thank you so much.

VALENCIA: You bet.

WHITFIELD: Teen girls taking off from a Denver neighborhood allegedly on a mission to join ISIS.

How the terror group recruits young people and what the U.S. can do to stop it, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. What could possibly make three teenage girls decide to leave their homes in the U.S. and take off for Syria to fight with ISIS? Well, that's what a lot of people are trying to find out right now.

Our Ted Rowlands tell us what happened and what's next for these girls from Denver, Colorado.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As friends describe it, sisters, just 15 and 17 years old, along with their 15-year-old friend, were so determined to join ISIS, they were halfway to Syria before they were stopped, thanks to the father of the 15-year-old who discovered their plans after looking at his daughter's computer. He called authorities and also contacted his friend, Colorado State Representative Daniel Kagan.

REP. DANIEL KAGAN (D), COLORADO: She had been tweeting to her friends and discussing this plan to go to Syria and strike a blow for justice, as they saw it.

ROWLANDS: Authorities say when the girls were stopped at Germany, they had their passports, some clothes and about $2,000 they'd stolen from their parents. The girls were sent back to the United States and are now home with their families.

KAGAN: She's 15 years old. She has completely understood now what she just had no notion of before of what she was getting involved in.

ROWLANDS: Both sets of parents have declined interview requests. At the apartment complex where the sisters live, neighbors say they're concerned about the possibility that the girls will do something against the U.S. since they weren't able to fight for ISIS.

CATHERINE WILLIAMS, NEIGHBOR: If they knew what they were doing, yes, I'm really concerned.

KEVIN DERUSHA, NEIGHBOR: Yes. I mean, they could just pick up arms any time now, you know, and go around to the schools or wherever and show up at school and just start killing people.

ROWLANDS: These aren't the first Colorado teens with aspirations to join jihad. Nineteen-year-old Shannon Conley was arrested in April on her way to Syria. She pleaded guilty to conspiracy to provide materiel support to a terrorist organization.

The three teenagers are not expected to face charges, in part, because they're minors. Kagan says he believes the girls were recruited online. ISIS and other groups use videos like this to lure Westerners to join their cause.

According to intelligence estimates, more than 100 Americans have joined ISIS to fight in Iraq and Syria.

(On camera): Is there a concern that one or more of these girls will do something down the line?

KAGAN: Well, that's a legitimate concern and this is why the FBI is going into extraordinary depth as to how this came about, what has happened since they were apprehended, what -- how much do the girls involved feel an affiliation with this corrupted ideology that has been peddled to them.

ROWLANDS: None of the girls has returned to school. Both sets of parents are cooperating with authorities as the investigation continues.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Denver.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. So now we know what happened but the bigger question is why?

Jeff Gardere is a clinical psychologist and Mubin Shaikh is an ex- jihadist who now works for the Canadian Intelligence Service.

Good to see both of you.

So, Jeff, to you first. Teenagers, you know, they're often trying to figure who they are. And some could be lacking in self-esteem and that makes them a lot more vulnerable to making decisions that aren't the best. So does ISIS do that or do we think that ISIS is using that kind of information to try to target the more vulnerable young people?

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: And I think that's exactly what is happening. Looking at the weaknesses, perhaps where they feel there's a lack of family, these youngsters now can latch on to something that offers them significance, that offers them a freedom that they've never had, perhaps some of these girls are raised in very restrictive homes.

And now they are able to have this individuation, finding their own purpose in life, but with this promise of romance, and marriage and making a difference in the world where in fact where they are now they feel completely insignificant and lost and unhappy.

WHITFIELD: So, Mubin, you know, you can speak to these, you know, threats directly because you came close to becoming radicalized yourself. So, you know, what would lead these young girls to take such a drastic step? I mean, is it as simple as, you know, they're seeing on YouTube or they're via social media the promises that ISIS is making, you will get freedom, you know, martyrdom if you join us?

But then match that with what would seem to be their access to the reality of what ISIS does. How could they be, I guess, duped or tricked like this?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Well, the professor is absolutely right in terms of the psychology, individual and groups. These are things that scientists have studied for some time. But especially in the case of Muslim girls, like the professor said, you know, bring up in very strict homes. You know, they like the jihadi bad boys. These guys are on videos, they're shooting guns, they're looking macho, they're looking like heroes.

And you know, this looks like attainable for these women and girls. And the other side is they see this and they deliberately recruit these women and girls online, sort of like, you know, a child groomer or a sexual offender would develop a relationship, promise them, you know, gifts and treats and whatnot. But a lot of these women now, they're seeing when they get there, it's a very different reality than what the brochure showed them.

WHITFIELD: So what would be your advice to, you know, counterterrorism, you know, professionals who would try to stand in the way of any more potential recruitment. What could they do, what could that entity do to try to better inform a lot of these young people who are the more vulnerable to not get roped in to wanting to join is? Mubin?

SHAIKH: I think the solution is really collaboration and cooperation with community organizations, to have the community organizations mobilize parents, to have parents understand that the parents don't want to see their 14-year-old girl gone the next day, you know, to a place like Syria or to join a group like ISIS. Parents need to have a more positive approach with their children.

In a lot of these cases you have cultural communities where the old world culture and new world culture is in complete clash, and this is not going to go away so easily. This is a challenge of a acculturation, of integration. So parents working with community organizations sometimes the government is just not best equipped to intervene at certain points.

WHITFIELD: OK.

SHAIKH: So also to know where we can --

WHITFIELD: I'm going to have to leave it there, Mubin Shaikh, because our signal is pretty spotty there.

And Jeff Gardere, thanks to you as well. Mubin, appreciate it.

All right. NFL teams are getting ready for a big game on Sunday, but the commissioner might have his mind elsewhere.

Why he may have to testify about what he knew about the Ray Rice domestic abuse scandal next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Bleacher Report's Roshan Ali takes us through the case.

ROSHAN ALI, BLEACHER REPORT: Roger Goodell could be forced to reveal what he knew about the Ray Rice scandal and when he knew it. According to multiple reports, an arbitrator is telling the NFL commissioner he must testify next month when Ray Rice appeals his indefinite suspension. Both sides agreed to let former U.S. District Judge Barbara S. Jones hear the labor grievance hearing, which is not related to any criminal case.

The NFL benched Rice after he knocked his then fiancee unconscious in an Atlantic City elevator back in February. Rice was originally suspended for two games, but his punishment was extended in September after a more detailed video was released showing Rice punching and dragging Janay Palmer.

Goodell is expected to face questions about what they talked about when the two met over the summer. Rice's lawyers argued that NFL and the Ravens violated a collective bargaining agreement which prevents players from being punished twice for the same incident.

Rice's appeal hearing is set for November 5th and 6th.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks so much, Roshan Ali.

I'm joined now by sports attorney, David Cornwell, and in New York by sports business analyst and former ESPN senior editor Keith Reed.

All right. Glad both of you can be with me.

David, to you first, you used to be an attorney for the NFL. This is very rare to see the commissioner testify in this matter. What does this mean big picture?

DAVID CORNWELL, SPORTS ATTORNEY: This means that we're going to get a window into the disciplinary process. We've never been able to see. I've been on both sides representing the commissioner and actually representing players asking that the commissioner be compelled to testify. We've never been able to see into the commissioner's mind regarding the disciplinary process.

One thing with Roger -- Commissioner Goodell, he actually talks with a lot of people before he imposes discipline, but he's never had to testify.

WHITFIELD: So, in this case, he is -- he is going to have to answer what was the difference between the two-game suspension when you saw that the fiancee was being dragged out the elevator and all that changed to an indefinite suspension once the internal elevator tape was revealed.

He is going to be pressed on how much -- you know, have you seen this before, what did you think preceded the young lady being dragged out of the elevator and how do you go from two-game suspension to indefinite suspension?

CORNWELL: Here's where lawyers become lawyers. A single question. What did you think happened when you imposed two games and what was different when you saw the video of the elevator?

Now that single question will take four hours. They'll be asking that question from every angle because it really is what this is all about. Seeing this young lady, Janay, being pulled out of the elevator unconscious leaves anybody to conclude that something happened in that elevator that rendered her unconscious. Now that we see exactly what happened, why are you increasing the discipline?

WHITFIELD: So, Keith, what's also difficult here, perplexing maybe, to a lot of people is that punishment is really at the discretion of the commissioner. That is in the policy, so, if the commissioner says this is what I saw fit at the time, this is what I thought, you know, prior to the events of seeing the entire tape, so, you know, this is the way I see it and the policy supports my you know, discretion.

KEITH REED, SPORTS BUSINESS ANALYST: Sure. And I've said since the beginning of this whole matter that the real issue with all of this in the NFL is the fact that the commissioner is judge, jury and executioner. He answers to no one. He's not used to answering to anybody in terms of the disciplinary decisions that he hands down and this is an instance in which he's been criticized over and over and over again for how arbitrary his disciplinary decisions have seemed to be and it's coming back to bite him.

So much of this is about how transparent the NFL is not. And so much of this is about how fair the process doesn't seem to be when Roger Goodell and Roger Goodell alone hands out punishments for things and does not explain those decisions. This is the first time he's ever going to be compelled to have to actually explain it and that's going to be as interesting as what happens to Ray Rice going forward.

WHITFIELD: So, David, is this a start of a transparency or is this just, you know, a blip on the screen, this is how it's being handled now but don't expect that every case from this point forward is going to be with this kind of transparency?

CORNWELL: So from our perspective, the media, you know, we look for one size-fits-all solutions. Roger's power, best interest of the game power, goes back to the 1920s and the Black Sox game. Every commissioner in sports has the best interest of the game authority, which is absolute. You don't have to answer to anybody. That's why you're the commissioner. That's not going to change.

But what will change is the manner in which we deal with domestic violence. Perhaps the manner in which we review his decisions, but he will not nor should he give up his authority to act in the best interest of the game because that's why we have successful leagues in all of the sports, because of the commissioner's ability to lead based on his understanding of the best interest of the game.

This is a private business. This is not Congress. This is -- we get to look at it like that, but it's a private business and he's responsible for leading it.

WHITFIELD: So, Keith --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: OK, go ahead, Keith. REED: You know, actually I got to challenge --

WHITFIELD: And I wonder if the goal here is for Ray Rice to be reinstated, is this the path in which, you know, he must go in order for that to happen and then go ahead, Keith, on your comments what David just said.

REED: Sure. To answer your question, yes, this is the path that's brought up. They have to go through this arbitration process, although there's a big question as to whether or not Ray Rice will play again even if he does get reinstated because getting reinstated doesn't mean any team has to sign you.

What I wanted to challenge a little bit earlier was this idea that the NFL is strictly a private business and that the best thing for the league is Roger Goodell acting on his own.

WHITFIELD: OK.

REED: Listen, Roger Goodell acting on his own is the reason why we're here. Right?

WHITFIELD: All right.

REED: He acted on his own and he didn't necessarily act in the best interest of the league. He didn't necessarily do the thing that was right for everybody involved and he hasn't acted on domestic violence in the way that he should have acted going all the way back to Jovan Belcher, who killed somebody and then killed himself.

WHITFIELD: All right, Keith Reed --

REED: These teams get public subsidies and all kinds of things that you can't just look at them like they're a private business and we're totally hands off. That's a problem.

WHITFIELD: All right. We'll have to leave it right there. David, you got a quick comment on that?

CORNWELL: Look, you know, again, one size fits all. All of these circumstances are different. That's why we have commissioners with plenary authority to determine what's in the best interest of the league.

WHITFIELD: All right. David Cornwell, Keith Reed, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. Wish I had an hour on this because boy, we've got lots to fill on that.

All right. Thanks so much, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

REED: Thanks.

CORNWELL: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. And new information on those injured in yesterday's school shooting. That school shooting rather in Washington state.

Why did a popular freshman shoot his cousins and peers? Next.

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