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Don Lemon Tonight
Ebola Fears
Aired October 27, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Tonight, breaking news: fears that a patient in Maryland may have Ebola. Meanwhile, nurse Kaci Hickox, who was forced into quarantine in New Jersey after returning from West Africa, is on her way home tonight after she tested negative for Ebola. So what should we be doing to stop the spread of this deadly disease? Tonight, six states are required to monitor everybody coming to this country from the Ebola zone. In New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, and Georgia, officials must check on travelers every day for 21 days, asking them about their temperatures and any other Ebola symptoms.
Meanwhile, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois say anyone who had direct contact with Ebola patients in West Africa will be quarantined for 21 days. But is that enough?
And in the wake of New York's first Ebola diagnosis, what about the city's marathon, just days away? Should runners and spectators be concerned?
And what about American troops fighting Ebola? Is it safe to be -- is it better to be safe than sorry? Tonight, we're going to separate Ebola fact from fiction.
But I want to begin with our breaking news, fears of another Ebola case in Maryland.
CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in Atlanta. Miguel Marquez is in Bellevue Hospital, at Bellevue Hospital right here in New York, where a 5-year-old tested negative for Ebola today.
Sanjay, let's begin with you. What can you tell us about this new story coming out of Maryland tonight?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's sort of an ongoing situation, Don.
The University of Maryland Medical Center has accepted a patient at the direction of the Department of Public Health over there for assessment. So this sounds like someone obviously they're concerned about. We don't know why, what has sort of sparked those concerns necessarily. We also don't know if they have Ebola. They're going to be assessed and eventually see if they have symptoms and be tested is my guess.
But we will probably have more information over the next couple of days. It can take some time, as you know, Don, to know for sure. Right now, out of I think respect for the patient's privacy, they're not releasing any more details, but we do know that patient's now at University of Maryland Medical Center.
LEMON: I have more to talk to you about, Dr. Gupta. Stand by. But I want to get to Miguel real quick.
Miguel, you are at Bellevue Hospital in New York, where there's good news about a 5-year-old boy. The young patient has tested negative for Ebola. What's next for him?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Next is to stay here at Bellevue for a few more days with his mother in isolation. They want to make sure that that negative stays negative.
So they're going to test him several more times to make sure that that young man remains free of Ebola. He came in on Saturday night after a month in Guinea. He got sick that evening and into Sunday. The fever started up. One thing that officials have said all along is the way his symptoms came along, they didn't fit the classic Ebola symptoms, meaning that he seemed to get the vomiting and diarrhea first and then the fever later on.
So they didn't think it was Ebola. They have confirmed now it's negative for Ebola, but out of a complete abundance of caution, as Sanjay says, you're will hear that term. They're going to keep him here a few more days, do some testing -- Don.
LEMON: Absolutely. Miguel, but know that Dr. Craig Spencer, the New York doctor with Ebola, also at the same hospital where you're at in Bellevue. What's his condition, his current condition?
MARQUEZ: He is serious, but stable. And it sounds like on Saturday he did take a bit of a turn. The worst symptoms started to kick in, the gastrointestinal issues with Ebola, officials say. Now he seems to have become a bit more stable, still in very serious condition. He did have a blood transfusion from Nancy Writebol, who suffered Ebola and is now free of it.
That seems to have taken with him. So it is hoped that his condition will improve. His fiancee has left the hospital. She's in quarantine for the next 21 days or 20 days or so. And the two friends that he had substantial contact with are also in quarantine. But right now, he's serious, but stable and it's hoped he will pull through, Don.
LEMON: Let's hope he does pull through and everyone involved is healthy and safe here. Dr.
Gupta, back to you now. The CDC -- this is more breaking news -- put out new guidelines today for Ebola health care workers. What are the key changes? GUPTA: Well, I think the best way to look at it is what you're
seeing on your screen right there. They're going to identify different levels of risk, highest risk all the way down to no risk. They're sort of self-evident in terms of what they mean, but somebody who's had direct obviously contact with a patient with Ebola and there's some real concern about exposure. They're going to fall into the highest-risk category.
I think, Don, what they're trying to do more than anything else is try and make it less of a one size fits all. On one side, you had people saying, look, there's absolutely no need to do anything different unless somebody becomes sick. They start to show symptoms. On the other end, you have heard, Don, you have been talking about the fact that people have been put into essentially a quarantine without having any symptoms at all.
This is sort of threading the needle a bit, sort of defining it a little bit more. So you're defining groups into specific categories.
LEMON: Talking about someone who's quarantined. That nurse, Kaci Hickox, who was initially quarantined in New Jersey, Dr. Gupta, got the green light to head back home to Maine. What's the latest there? What do we know?
GUPTA: She was released today, according to her attorney. She's going to go back to Maine. She will be in a situation of essentially voluntary quarantine over there for a total of 21 days.
That's going to be the story there, so a very different story than what we were hearing over the weekend. And let me just point out, Don, I think something you and I have talked about, that the Doctors Without Borders, the organization for which she worked, says a quarantine is neither recommended nor warranted.
So she's in a voluntary quarantine. That's probably even more in terms of protection than what her parent organization recommends.
LEMON: Can I ask you something? Because everyone has been saying you really don't -- your chances are very low of infecting anyone unless you're really sick, you're at that moment where your temperature gets high. So would she test negative for it and then maybe in the future is there a possibility that she can test positive, that it's just not showing up on a test yet?
GUPTA: Yes, think about it like this. As the virus starts to replicate more and more in your body, it eventually gets to high enough numbers in the blood where it can be detected.
Someone who doesn't have any symptoms is unlikely to test positive. That just wouldn't be a very likely scenario based on what I just told you. So it is possible later on down the line that, if she became symptomatic, let's say a week or so from now, and went back in for a blood test she could test positive.
But, again, the most salient point here is you don't transmit the virus until you are sick. And it's not like as soon as you develop a fever, you suddenly start becoming contagious. It's not binary like that. As you get more and more sick, you become more and more infectious.
Remember Mr. Duncan? He was at home for two-and-a-half days before he went back into the hospital. None of his family members or friends who were in that apartment with him got sick.
GUPTA: Thank you, Sanjay. Thank you, Miguel. We appreciate it.
I want to bring in Dr. Lance Plyler of Samaritan's Purse, and also Dr. Celine Gounder, a special in infectious diseases and public health, and also Dr. Gregory Ciottone of Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School.
Good evening, Doctors.
Dr. Gounder, to you first. I want you to take a look at this new CNN poll that shows 81 percent of Americans believe another person in the U.S. will contract Ebola in the next few weeks, a Baltimore hospital evaluating another possible Ebola case right now. Are we going to see more of this, or are these people going in because the flu symptoms sound very similar to Ebola? What's going to happen next here?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: We will certainly see more cases of Ebola in this country. Now, that's different from whether there will be transmission of Ebola in this country.
I think you're going to see people, travelers coming from West Africa. I think that's inevitable. It's estimated that at the current way the epidemic is growing in West Africa, that we will likely see three to eight cases of Ebola arriving on our shores per month.
And the only way to really address that is that we need to be fighting the epidemic in the affected countries.
LEMON: Three to eight per month? I mean, to -- that doesn't sound good if you're just listening at home, Dr. Gounder, three to eight per month, and who knows what happens from there.
GOUNDER: Right.
And I think the CDC has taken appropriate measures to try to strengthen infection control at hospitals. And part of that was identifying not just the four biocontainment units, which are NIH, Emory, Nebraska, and in Montana. But beyond that, for example, in New York State, we have eight hospitals that have been identified as referral centers for Ebola patients.
So they have gotten additional assistance and training and they will be getting retraining. And I think you're going to be seeing a similar approach in other states throughout the country that they will be targeting those kinds of resources at specific referral centers that will be responsible for managing these kinds of patients. LEMON: Dr. Ciottone, I want to ask you this. It's wonderful
news about the 5-year-old boy that Miguel just reported on. He's tested negative for Ebola now. But, again, as I just sort of said to Dr. Gounder there, this is really part of the challenge, isn't it, with so many symptoms of other disease like Ebola?
People with so many other symptoms that are going to think oh, my gosh, do I have this, do I just not have a common cold or a flu?
DR. GREGORY CIOTTONE, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Yes, true. It is a problem.
And this is sort of the root of the issue that happened in West Africa, where initially the symptoms were misinterpreted from something else, let's say malaria or what have you, and really the ability to early-detect and contain the local infection, preventing an outbreak, was sort of lost early on because of a misinterpretation of symptoms.
And that's going to lead to some of the issues that we're going to face here, that three to eight cases that come are going to be increasing perhaps as this Ebola infection, outbreak, epidemic worldwide increases as well. We're going to be seeing I think more and more cases presenting here, and there's going to be certain steps that we're going to have to take to identify and contain it.
LEMON: Yes. I want to get another question, and this one specifically is for you, Dr. Ciottone, because this is just coming in. You work in health care here in New York City.
This is according to someone at Bellevue Hospital. "There were not enough nurses on staff at Bellevue to handle ICU and Ebola patients, so patients in the adult and pediatric ICU were transferred to NYU Langone Medical Center for further treatment. Pediatric patients were transferred today while the adult patients were transferred over the weekend. They needed nurses, not the space, meaning the Ebola doc is not being treated in the ICU area." That's what a worker with direct knowledge has told one of our CNN producers here.
What does it mean there isn't enough space? What does it mean for the treatment of Ebola patients or people who are coming to America that may have Ebola, Dr. Ciottone?
CIOTTONE: You addressed that to me?
LEMON: Yes.
CIOTTONE: Yes. Yes.
I don't work in New York. I work in Boston. But I think that one thing that brings out is now we are doing a pretty good job at treating Ebola, Ebola patients, now that it's a handful and may increase in the future. But, you know, if we get to the point where these numbers start dramatically increasing, hundreds, thousands, and perhaps more, that's when it becomes an issue because our ability then really starts to get overwhelmed.
You know, this falls under the realm of something we call disaster medicine, which I am actually a specialist in. You know, we have to try to look at this as a possibly early time in a potential Ebola epidemic in the U.S., and it's the actions that we take now at this early time that are really crucial so that we can prevent, you know, the epidemic from spreading and prevent those hundreds to thousands of patients who I don't think any of us would argue would stress our health care system, as good as it is.
LEMON: And, Dr. Plyler, I want to get to you, for you to respond to that as well, because you, having worked with Samaritan's Purse, also worked with Dr. Kent Brantly in Liberia. When you hear news like this coming from the hospital, should people be concerned about that?
DR. LANCE PLYLER, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, SAMARITAN'S PURSE: Don, good evening. I think I agree with Dr. Ciottone. I think it behooves us to be as prepared as we can.
Fortunately, I think that we do have a very robust system here in the U.S., a health care system, and I think we do need to take many steps to prepare hospitals should more cases arrive. And I think they will. I applaud the CDC for implementation of new protocols, which I think are sound.
And I think if we implement them properly, I think that we can contain and properly manage patients that do come over with Ebola. I think the bottom line, though, Don, is that we really need to continue to attack the epidemic in West Africa, because that's where the profound epidemic is and that's where we're going to contain it.
LEMON: Hold that thought. I think what you're hearing -- what I'm hearing you guys say is that this is going to happen the longer this goes on, people are going to have to change staff and figure out how to deal with this, that it's not such a big deal that this is happening. So stick with me, Doctors. Stay with me.
We have got a lot more to get in here. When we come right back, to quarantine or not to quarantine? Some states are getting tough with anybody who has even the possibility of Ebola exposure. Is that the way to go?
Plus, playing politics with the virus, how our public officials are dealing with Ebola, when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight, a patient in Maryland isolated for Ebola testing.
Let's talk more about quarantines and their effectiveness in stopping the spread of Ebola.
Back with me now is Dr. Lance Plyler, Dr. Celine Gounder and Dr. Greg Ciottone. Back to you, Dr. Ciottone. Here's a new CNN/ORC poll; 69 percent
of Americans say foreign citizens should be screened and those with Ebola symptoms should be quarantined. That figure rises to 78 percent for American citizens returning from the hot zone in Africa.
Should there be, Dr. Ciottone, automatic quarantines for health care workers returning to the U.S. from Ebola-affected countries even if they aren't showing symptoms?
CIOTTONE: Well, I guess I'm going to be the unpopular guy here, because I do believe that we should have a strict quarantine, preferably self-imposed.
Now, I will give you some of the evidence that I base that on. If you look at this, Dr. Spencer in New York is now the 17th health care worker from Medecins Sans Frontieres who has contracted Ebola, nine of whom have died.
OK? In addition to that, there was a very good study that came out about two weeks ago in "The New England Journal of Medicine" that took a good, hard look at this epidemic, the nine months we have seen this epidemic. And one of the things they found was that over 300 health care workers in West Africa contracted Ebola.
Now, what that tells me is that the personal protective equipment system that we use, whether it's the equipment, how we put it on, how we take it off, something is inadequate, something is amiss here. And then combine that with how we have done so far with the monitoring. Monitoring health care workers for the onset of fever is not adequate, I also think.
If we look at that same "New England Journal" study, it demonstrated a 12.9 percent of Ebola patients did not demonstrate any fever from onset of symptoms to detection. And we saw that in Dr. Spencer in New York.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You saw that in the doctor here.
Almost immediately after he went bowling and had his night on the town, the next morning is when he called and had to be taken to the hospital.
Dr. Plyler, what do you make of it? Because they're saying not many people want to go over and do these jobs. You're going to discourage people if you are going to demand that they have a demanded quarantine when they come back to the United States. What do you make of that?
PLYLER: Yes.
Don, I do think we do have to be very careful. There's a very difficult balance here because, as I said, we really need to restrict the epidemic in West Africa. If we prohibit sufficient health care workers from responding, that would be a problem. So I'm not sure that in the pure sense of the word, that quarantine is appropriate.
But I do think, and indeed this is what Samaritan's Purse as an organization does, is that we implement very restrictive public access, which means, Don, that there's no utilization of public transportation like subways in the event of Dr. Spencer, no trains, buses, any public transportation, and there's no visitation of public venues.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's not a quarantine, so to speak. This is more of limited movements, rather than complete isolation. Is that what you're saying?
PLYLER: Yes, sir, very restricted public access. And in addition to that, Don, I recommend and Samaritan's Purse implements monitoring temperatures four times a day with accountability. You actually report it to another provider.
LEMON: All right, I want to get into this because there was a war of words over the weekend between quarantined nurse Kaci Hickox -- you will be able to get in with this, but I want to play this for you -- with the nurse who said her basic human rights had been violated. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie had this to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: I know she didn't want to be there. No one ever wants to be in the hospital, I suspect. And so I understand that. But the fact is, I have a much greater, bigger responsibility to the people, the public. So, I think when she has time to reflect, she will understand that as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Doctor, you were wanting to get in here. Do you think this response is disproportionate in New York and New Jersey?
CIOTTONE: Don, let me just say this. Can we please demystify quarantine?
Quarantine is not necessarily what we see in the movies, with the sterile white enclosure, with people in moon suits and handing you things through gloves in the wall, et cetera. You know, quarantine can be very comfortably done at home, and in most cases will be a self-imposed quarantine.
In fact, don't even call it quarantine. Call it a supervised respite period, or what have you. We need to just demystify it. And I will tell you, one thing that really concerned me with the CDC statement today was one -- and I can't tell you verbatim, but a statement that was made about how the West African -- the doctors and nurses and health care workers going to West Africa are heroes. And they absolutely are. I absolutely agree they are heroes.
However, it then went on to say, and let's not turn them into pariahs when they come home. Quarantine does not turn you into a pariah. Quarantine can be a very comfortable situation to be in. And, in fact, you may pick up your symptoms even sooner if you do happen to convert and contract Ebola.
LEMON: All right.
So, Dr. Gounder, do you agree? She said that her basic human rights were taken away from her. Do you agree?
GOUNDER: I actually want to come back to some of the comments Dr. Ciottone made earlier.
So, he was describing how about 300 health care workers in West Africa have contracted Ebola. And it's important to distinguish those that were working for organizations like Doctors Without Borders who were following those very strict guidelines and those working in government hospitals, for example, where they had no protective equipment in some cases.
So that's really -- that's not an appropriate, you know, sign of what the risks...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But, Doctor, the truth is that those are still health care workers who've gone over there, treated people...
GOUNDER: No, no. Some of them were local health care workers, Sierra Leone, you know, Guineans, Liberians. Again, you're lumping two different groups when you're talking about those numbers.
And with respect to the 13 percent who did not have fever as their first symptom, what the CDC is recommending is active monitoring for fever and other symptoms, in place of quarantining certain of the risk groups. And that I think is appropriate.
That should be able to capture those who are becoming symptomatic with Ebola, when you include the other symptoms in the screening.
LEMON: But, Doctor, the question is about quarantine and what happened over the weekend in New York and New Jersey. Do you think it is an overreaction? Do you think by doing that, as the nurse said, that you're violating people's basic human rights?
GOUNDER: I think it is an overreaction.
And here's the problem, is our best tool to deal with Ebola, to protect ourselves from Ebola in this country is to send health care workers and other aid workers to West Africa. And I can tell you, I have friends on the ground there right now, they are taking down their Twitter accounts, their Facebook accounts. They have been harassed. Their kids are being bullied at school.
We have already heard about the Bellevue nurses who were denied food service, that their kids are also being stigmatized. I had a friend who was going to volunteer with me in West Africa and she's decided not to when she heard about the quarantine. This is going to have a huge impact on our best tool to control Ebola.
LEMON: All right, that's going to have to be the last of it. Thank you, Doctors. Appreciate it.
When we come right back, is the federal government doing enough to battle Ebola on the home front and in West Africa? And is the new Ebola czar missing in action?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back.
Here's the question. Is the federal government doing enough to stop the spread of Ebola? And what about the states? Are their governors effective?
I'm joined now by Lieutenant General Russel Honore, author of "Leadership in the New Normal," and also Errol Louis, CNN political commentator and political anchor at New York One News.
Good evening, General.
General, first, you believe we need a federal standard for how to deal with Ebola patients. How difficult is that to put into place, though?
LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Stroke of the pen.
The president could write a presidential decision that directs this to happen. It could be clear. It delineates the procedures to be followed as opposed to suggestions that might come out of the CDC. And oh, by the way, those words would be drawn up by doctors. We've had our first case back on 30 September. I was doing a little research earlier. Here we are the end of October and we still have confusion. I do think people have been working hard. Our messages have been confused. The emphatic language we used in the early days has changed. Now, it's time to come up with a procedure. And it could be adjusted along the way. One thing we know is various states having rules will not work, Don. This will confuse people, and it will pit one state against the next. We need a federal law that basically said this is what you've got to do and this is where you've got to do it. And the federal government will resource that. It takes the burden off people and the state to resource it.
LEMON: Errol, you wrote an opinion piece for cnn.com that says state politicians like Governor Rick Perry, like Governor Andrew Cuomo, Chris Christie taking the easy way out and playing politics with Ebola. Explain that.
ERROL LOUIS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there was objectively no reason on Friday for the governors of New York and New Jersey to suddenly without any contact with the federal government, without any contact with local officials here in New York City to suddenly declare we're going to do a quarantine. They had six sentences from a press release that amounted to the marching orders for the people who would be tasked with implementing this thing. And it was not based on anything, any new objective facts on the ground whatsoever. It was clearly based or apparently based on public sentiment and on political considerations. This is where you get into problems you know because the general and I -- I would defer to him on leadership as a general proposition, but if you get a guideline out of Washington that doesn't make any sense for Illinois or for New York or for New Jersey and then local officials are there to interpret it any which way they want, well, you're going to get that patchwork of different standards and you're going to get people using non-scientific, non-health-related criteria and you're going to get things like Kaci Hickox being you know detained in a tent without being told why.
LEMON: All right. Let's pull this back down because even just both of you coming on the air tonight reported about what's happening at the hospital, nurses having to be shuffled around, and you know, someone in the health industry e-mailed me and said that's not a shock. I mean, there's a shortage of nurses in America that happens at any hospital. Are we surprised that people go over to Africa and treat diseases and illnesses that happen there, in developing countries, and haven't come back to the United States before? Is this all an overreaction, general, to something that's been happening for years?
HONORE: Well, I think it has. You know, there's been a lot of concern today about the soldiers self-isolating themselves. That's nothing unusual. We've done that before in redeployment to make sure everyone's records are straight before they're sent home. We used to do the national guard up to 10, 14 days before they went home and they redeployed. As far as -- I think what people are looking for is a clear standard of what they should do. And we have worked with the CDC protocols. It's time to move to some procedures. And then we can adjust them along the way. But I think the options of clear, this is what we're going to do from the CDC who's approached this like a bunch of gentlemen doctors leaving room for each one of them to make their own decision, have left some confusion, and I hope they will use the public health law, create the standards, tell people what to do, and the federal government resource it and take the burden off of people.
LEMON: But still, you know, Americans are concerned not only here but also overseas. Here's what a poll shows, Errol, that there's broad support for taking on Ebola abroad, more than 7 in 10 Americans say that the government should be involved fighting Ebola overseas as well as home. So my question is will that change if soldiers, God forbid, start becoming infected or showing signs?
LOUIS: Well, it might. I mean, look, we have signs of something, and I hope it doesn't turn into an outright panic, but we have levels of concern that far outstrip the objective facts on the ground. I mean, far many more people are going to die of the flu as of right now, and we know that for sure, and you don't see people trying to figure out how to quarantine flu patients and so forth. There's exactly one person as far as I could tell who has a contagious case of Ebola, and it's Dr. Spencer here, and you'd almost have to break into the hospital to try and get near the guy. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to have sort of a national panic. You know, the standards, I think the CDC is putting forward seem to make some sense. If you're in one risk category, you take certain actions. If you're in a different one, you take other actions. The fact what we're talking about here are medical personnel who have volunteered to do the right thing and go overseas means that they're going to understand those standards.
LEMON: But if they volunteer to do the right thing when they go overseas, they should also be able to volunteer and do the right thing once they come home as well. Thank you very much, General. Thank you very much, Errol Louis. We appreciate both of you.
Up next, the politics of Ebola, one governor who has his eye on the White House stakes out a position on quarantines, ignoring the CDC and the Obama administration.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: I'm Erin Burnett. This is CNN.
LEMON: Today, the CDC released updated guidance for people who might have been exposed to the Ebola virus. A person who has direct contact with infected body fluids would be classified as high risk, or highest risk. But a person who traveled on a plane with someone showing signs of Ebola would be considered low risk. Is this a step in the right direction? Joining me, Tara Sethmayer, contributor to The Blaze, and also, Van Jones, CNN political commentator.
OK, here we go. So, Tara, the CDC today once again released new guidelines on how to deal with healthcare workers returning from Ebola hot zones in West Africa. Why this late in the game? I mean, the CDC is still issuing new protocols. It was just last week when they had more protocols.
TARA SETHMAYER, THE BLAZE CONTRIBUTOR: It boggles the mind. This is a federal bureaucracy that has a $7 billion budget. That's b, billion. What have they been doing? Isn't this what we pay them, taxpayer dollars go toward things like this? They should have been prepared. Now, the Obama administration has been behind the curve on this on a number of issues. The W.H.O., the World Health Organization, warned about this epidemic back in March. The Obama administration did nothing. They warned them again in August. They did nothing. And now, we've seen more iterations of policies as they're learning on the fly here. But the public confidence, there's a crisis in confidence and the competency of government here because every week it's a different story. You can't blame the American people for looking at the situation and going what are they doing. Is there anyone in control? And it doesn't look like it.
LEMON: You can't see -- I'm sure you can hear Van Jones.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, no, no. He's disagreeing. Van, what are you disagreeing about?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's just ridiculous. I mean, honestly, we have to be fact driven. There's no way when you've never had a disease like this in a country like this that the initial policies can be perfect. What I'm proud of is that this president, this administration is using a fact-driven approach. As we learn more about how our healthcare system responds to this new threat, we are issuing new responses. That's called good management. As opposed to jumping out, doing nutty stuff like Chris Christie just did, making up your own facts, making up your own policy, making up your own science. The president and this administration are doing exactly the right thing to continue to improve these policies. That's not bad. That's good.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Van, Van, listen, to your point you know about -- I think you're in the minority among democrats and republicans that the White House you know is doing the right thing here. Maybe they are.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I'm only talking about -- I'm only talking about the systematic improvement of the policies. The systematic improvement of policies, that's normal.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's true for a corporation or anything else.
SETHMAYER: In the private sector that would never be acceptable.
JONES: Improvement's not acceptable in the private sector?
SETHMAYER: No, incompetent or ineptitude. If you're incompetent or ineptitude, you get fired. People are held responsible for that. There should have been zero cases of Ebola in this country. A travel restriction should have been issued months ago.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: And there's not one -- the World Health Organization does not agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: One at a time.
JONES: I'm sorry.
SETHMAYER: I didn't say a complete travel ban. I said travel restrictions. And then you have a controlled movement for people who are in the medical field. They can go over there through military transport or...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Go ahead, Van.
SETHMAYER: Not through commercial airliners. Look at the reaction.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK, let him in. Let him in.
SETHMAYER: It's commonsense.
JONES: All this is great except that the World Health Organization does not agree with you. The U.N. Ebola chief does not agree with you. The CDC does not agree with you. So it's fine to make up this stuff and it's easy to do it on the radio and television...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Because they're in immediate direct contact and the other countries of the world have not done it because it does not make sense.
LEMON: Here's my point. Go ahead, go ahead. Make your point, but I want to move on. Go ahead.
JONES: Well, my point is just if they don't improve the policies then they're attacked, and if they do improve the policies, they're attacked because some people are going to attack them no matter what they do.
SETHMAYER: But no one knows what the policies are, van. The policies are...
JONES: The policies were just issued.
(CROSSTALK)
SETHMAYER: You have the department of defense saying that American troops are over there, they will be quarantined for 21 days in Italy. The Carabinieri came out with hazmat suits to greet the American soldiers. But I thought it wasn't that dangerous, people aren't supposed to panic. That's what the defense department is doing. Then the White House comes out and says something completely different to the American people. Which is it?
LEMON: When I get you guys on next time, I'm just going to get a bag of popcorn and sit here and listen and tell the producers not to produce so much. But I want you to -- to what you said about that, when I said you may be in the minority of people thinking that the administration is doing a great job when it comes to Ebola, this is SNL, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some people want to criticize the way our administration has handled this crisis. And it's true, we made a few mistakes early on. But I assure you, it was nowhere near as bad as how we handled the ISIS situation. I mean, our various secret service mishaps, or the scandals of the IRS and the NSA. And I don't know if you guys remember, but the Obamacare website had some pretty serious problems, too. In fact, if you look at all the stuff that's happened in my second term, this whole Ebola thing is probably one of my greatest accomplishments.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Van, do you risk sounding making the point for SNL when you say that I think the administration is doing a great job when it comes to Ebola?
JONES: I didn't say -- I said that improving the policies is good. That's all I said.
(CROSSTALK)
SETHMAYER: You said you were proud of it. You said you were proud of it.
JONES: I'm proud of the improvements. I'm proud of the improvements, but I'm not going to go up against SNL.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Quickly. Briefly.
SETHMAYER: Polling shows that in May, the CDC had a 60 percent approval rating. It's now down to 37 percent. In July, the American people, 58 percent of the American people including one-third democrats said that they do not feel Obama is running the government competently. That was in July before this. So, Van, you are definitely in the minority.
LEMON: OK. We have a lot more to talk about, Van. Hold that thought because coming up, 50 different states could mean 50 different ways of dealing with Ebola. Are we letting politics get in the way as we've been talking about here? And we'll talk about that more.
Plus, never short on controversial comments, Charles Barkley has this to say about race in America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES BARKLEY: Unfortunately, as I tell my white friends, we as black people, we're never going to be successful not because of you white people, because of other black people.
LEMON: More on that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back with me now, Tara Sethmayer from The Blaze and also Van Jones here from CNN. So, let's talk about Chris Christie. There's video. He's all over now talking about Ebola rather than talking about bridge gate. Van Jones, is Chris Christie back?
JONES: Listen, the same kind of bullying and blustering that got him in trouble before, that made his staff think it's OK to shut down bridges, here you have it again. You have an American hero, a nurse who risked her life to stop Ebola there, she comes back. This guy, against all recommendations, creates his own instant quarantine and has now made nurses and doctors around the country terrified to go and stop this thing over there, which means he's actually making it more likely that Ebola will wind up here.
SETHMAYER: Oh, come on.
JONES: If he were a true leader -- if you were a true leader, if he were a true leader, he would stand up and say I want the nurses and the doctors of my state to come to me by the hundreds. We're going to send you over there. When you come back, we're going to make sure you're in good shape and we're going to beat that thing over there. Instead he's grandstanding and making us less safe and it's disgusting. He should be ashamed of himself.
(CROSSTALK)
SETHMAYER: Are you going to levy that I that same criticism against democratic governor Andrew Cuomo in New York?
JONES: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
SETHMAYER: Who said the exact same thing to Cuomo? You think he was bullying and blustering?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: And he walked it back. And he fixed it.
SETHMAYER: After the White House was embarrassed.
JONES: Hey, listen. I'm equal opportunity on this. Both Cuomo and Christie owe it to the country now to recruit doctors and nurses from their states and send them over there and fight Ebola there. That's the leadership move. If they had been leaning forward, they would understand what these healthcare workers are going through and they would respect them when they came home. They've been both of them missing in action and they're attacking American heroes. They should be ashamed of themselves, both of them.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I want to give this next subject, though, some time. I don't want to give it short trip.
SETHMAYER: I just want to say one thing, who's missing in action is our Ebola czar. So go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I didn't get to that question.
JONES: He's working. He's not on TV with you. He's working.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's talk about Charles Barkley now. Tara, this is for you first. Here's what he said. He said there are a lot of black people who are unintelligent, who don't have success. It's best to knock a successful black person down, cause -- meaning because -- because they're intelligent. They speak well. They do well in school. And they are successful. He raised a lot of eyebrows this weekend when this audio came out from a radio interview. Here's the rest of some of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARKLEY: When you're black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people. It's a dirty, dark secret. I'm glad it's coming out. For some reason, we are brainwashed to think if you're not a thug or an idiot, you're not black enough. If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don't break the law, you're not a good black person. And it's a dirty dark secret, Anthony. Listen, I hate to bring white people into our crap. But as a black person, we all go through it when you're successful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so...
JONES: Lord, Lord.
LEMON: Tara, he was talking about an African-American quarterback and he said that -- again, I don't even know if the reports are true about Russell Wilson. He was saying that Russell Wilson, members of his team don't think he's black enough and they don't like him. I don't know. That's not our reporting. But he certainly caused a firestorm. What do you make of his comments?
SETHMAYER: Well, that's Charles Barkley. He's known to cause controversy and be very frank in his words. He definitely doesn't mince words. But mean, I may not have worded the way he did, but I understand where he's coming from. If you -- the most racism I ever experienced in my life came from people in the black community, from the time I was a little girl. Because I was light skinned, because I have light eyes, because I speak differently, because I'm educated. It was ridiculous. And if you go to my Twitter feed after the show, you're going to see all of the most disgusting, vile things predominantly coming from black folks. And I think that it's unfortunate. It's a sad commentary. And it's something that Van may or may not disagree, but I can bear this out from my own personal experience is that is a very real thing.
(CROSSTALK)
SETHMAYER: The crabs in the barrel syndrome definitely exists. There may be other parts of it and it doesn't happen to everyone but it exists. And I think Charles Barkley was actually brave in mentioning it. I understand. It's real.
LEMON: Go ahead, Van.
JONES: I see it differently. Look, I don't think African- Americans are unique in having some jealous, hateful people in the community. But I'll tell you, my experience is wherever I go, African- Americans are proud that I have an ivy league education, I've done well. I get a lot of atta boys and a lot of you goes from a lot of people. And you always have a few. But what I'm concerned about are the people who overreact to the few and then spread stereotypes themselves about our community. The biggest obstacles in our community are not a few hateful crabs in the barrels. We have big obstacles like a prison system that's out of control, arresting way too many African- Americans who do the same level of crime as whites when it comes to drug crimes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Van, here's the thing. I think you're absolutely right on that. But I also think that that is an entirely different subject. You can mention one thing and not have to mention the other all the time. You don't have to preface this by saying I know there's racism. Of course we know there's racism. We live racism every day. So I think Tara has a point in the sense...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I agree with you. But I think Tara has a sense and a point to your point here that you always have to preface it and say, OK, listen, I know there's racism, people, but let me just make this observation.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Why should you be limited as a person and as a professional by always having to give a caveat about something that is...
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I'm not talking about that caveat. I may have misspoken, Don. Let me just say this. He said the reason we won't be successful is because of other African-Americans.
LEMON: Well, Charles Barkley.
JONES: I think that's an overstatement. I don't think that's true.
SETHMAYER: I think he engaged in hyperbole. But again, that's just Charles Barkley. That's his personality. But I do think the crux of what he said, there is some validity to it. I lived it. I live it every day. You know, as a minority female conservative, do you have any idea the names that I'm called, from black folks? I mean, they call me every name in the book. I don't get that...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Van, I'm sure you've seen -- we talked about this. I'm sure you've seen my Twitter feed. You've seen the criticism. If I don't carry a certain narrative forth which people think that African- Americans or liberals -- and I'm not a liberal and I'm not a conservative, either then I am all of a sudden an Uncle Tom. I am a sellout. I am all of these things.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's a different thing, though.
LEMON: What are you talking about? And every single person -- I was at brunch yesterday with all black people, about 10 black people, and everyone said he has a point, he said it wrong but he is correct in his point. It's absolutely true, Van.
JONES: Let me say a couple of things. One, there is a party line in the black community politically. If you go against that you, will hit a bug zapper. That is true. I happen to...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Van, I'm going into the next hour. I'm going into the next hour. But I want to thank you both. This is a great conversation. I promise you we will continue it here on CNN. Thank you both. We'll be right back.
SETHMAYER: Thank you.
