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Dr. Drew
Quarantined Nurse Released By New Jersey; Is Jodi Her Own Worst Enemy?
Aired October 27, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias exposed again. The lying.
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: Travis has done a lot for me and I wouldn`t hurt me. He introduced the gospel to me.
PINSKY: The spying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had broken into his e-mail accounts and bank accounts. She would sneak into his house, through the doggie door.
PINSKY: The crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, were you crying when you were shooting him?
ARIAS: I don`t remember.
PINSKY: Will she live or die for murdering Travis Alexander?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. I`m here with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
And we will begin with Jodi shortly. But, first, a nurse who treated Ebola patients in West Africa is now out of quarantine tonight. She has
threatened to sue the state of New Jersey for, in her words, violating her rights. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KACI HICKOX, NURSE: I don`t think most people understand what it`s like to be alone in a tent and to know there`s nothing wrong with you, and that
decisions are being made that don`t make sense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For nurse Kaci Hickox, isolated for three days by the state of New Jersey, the new policy has been a nightmare.
HICKOX: I spent a month in Sierra Leone.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: My heart goes out to her because she`s someone who`s been trying to help others and is obviously ill.
HICKOX: I am not, as he said, quote-unquote, "obviously ill". I am completely healthy and with no symptoms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t have any symptoms. She`s tested negative for Ebola twice.
HICKOX: I have kind of a porta-potty type of restroom. No shower facility. No connection with the outside world except my iPhone.
CHRISTIE: I`m sorry if any way she was inconvenienced. But the inconvenience that could occur for having folks who are symptomatic and ill
out in the public is a much greater concern of mine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: She`s on her way home to Maine where she`ll remain in isolation at her house. Joining us Loni Coombs, attorney of "You`re Perfect and Other
Lies Parents Tell", Vanessa Barnett from hiphollywood.com, and Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of "Tomboys" Podcast on Blog Talk Radio.
Sam, tell me about this quarantine conditions. We saw those pictures, and if you could update me on the 5-year-old who had an Ebola test this
morning.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: OK. Well, her conditions were far from comfortable, Dr. Drew. She was kept in a tent, alongside the hospital for
three days. There was a hospital bed in there. There was a porta-potty. There`s no TV, no shower. She was allowed her iPhone because she insisted
on keeping her iPhone.
Also, no reading material. Even though that the hospital claims they did provide her some reading material. So, there`s some discrepancy there.
PINSKY: It sounds less like quarantine and more like torture.
SCHACHER: Yes, I mean, three days of just doing nothing and feeling like her rights were violated.
This 5-year-old boy, for the viewers, this is the boy that recently returned home from West Africa with his family. He was running a fever.
Well, thankfully, he`s tested negative for Ebola.
PINSKY: Well, here`s a poll we posted on our Web site. It states, should there be a mandatory quarantine for health care workers who treated Ebola
patients? Right now, 91 percent are saying yes, 9 percent are saying no.
You`re all nodding your heads. Vanessa, you`re looking gleeful. What does that mean?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: Well, first let me say, I was a bit shocked that you used the word torture. I don`t think any circumstances
when you have an iPhone available that it could be considered torture.
Furthermore, I`ll say this, the hospitals, the medical workers, the CDC, they have gotten it wrong with this Ebola case. We were told it was going
to stop with the one man in Dallas, Texas. It did not. Two people working on him now had Ebola. One has been released, and is healthy. But we don`t
even understand how they got it.
So, yes, it is a little kneejerk, yes, this was handled wrong, but by all means, take the L, lady, sit in quarantine so we can know that you`re OK so
that there`s no chance of you infecting anyone else. Look, we are in a situation where we don`t have all the answers. Yes, you might be
uncomfortable. But torture -- no, no, no. That`s not torture.
PINSKY: But, Loni, I`m surprised you would sign off on this. You`re nodding that it`s an OK thing.
Let`s get it straight, everybody. You are not contagious with Ebola, even if you have it before you get symptoms.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes --
PINSKY: And I will remind everyone that people who get -- contracted it, only contracted it from people who were late in the course of the illness.
In the ICU, it`s at the end when they start exude all the virus. Before that, they are non-contagious.
COOMBS: OK, that`s great, Dr. Drew, and I hear that, and I know that`s what the doctors are saying, but here`s the problem -- the last doctor that
came back and he self-monitored himself and he was waiting to see if he had symptoms. As soon as he had symptoms, he went to the hospital.
PINSKY: That`s the right to do. He did just right.
COOMBS: However, however, now everybody is backtracking every single place he went, every person he was in contact with and they`re making all of
those people go into isolation and closing down businesses and making people paranoid.
PINSKY: And that`s the doctor`s fault? That`s the whole thing should happen that way.
COOMBS: No, but that`s why we need to at least contain the patient and make sure they don`t have it. As much as you keep saying and all the
doctors keep saying you`re not contagious, society is not quite there on their trust level and so, this will contain that paranoia that`s out there.
PINSKY: It reminds me of the Japanese quarantine. The society freaked out. They`re freaking out the same way about this. Should we allow the
people`s anxiety to extinguish people`s personal rights? Just take them away because everyone is anxious.
COOMBS: No, I don`t think you can make that comparison. This is not the same thing.
This is a matter of them being able to be looked at in a medical situation. Like they allowed this doctor, this woman, they, she`s not showing any
symptoms. She`s going home after two or three days, and they can watch her there.
I think there will be more finesse to the process as it works out. But let`s go ahead and say, let the doctors say, I think they are OK, now, they
can go out, instead of just, well, we`re going to let everybody self- monitor, and then show up later when the symptoms are already showing and try to backtrack and figure out how many people they`ve already infected.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Exactly. That guy went into an Uber car. He went to a bowling alley. And we don`t know if he already had the
symptoms, Dr. Drew.
Now, I agree with Governor Chris Christie. Look, if you`re going to volunteer and go to West Africa and treat people with Ebola, then you
should voluntarily put yourself in quarantine. I think that`s the only right thing to do, because one person being in quarantine versus affecting
how many people around you and your community and the neighborhood, what`s wrong with that?
PINSKY: Sam, hold on --
SCHACHER: It doesn`t make sense, Dr. Drew. Listen, I`ve been one of the people on the panel saying listen, I want to see them have more protocols
and more this. But this does not make sense. It`s not rational. If you are not symptomatic, you are not contagious. So why the hell does this
lady have to stay there for three days and has been tested negative --
COOMBS: By the time you`re symptomatic, it`s too late.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: It`s not too late.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: She`s still being monitored. She`s still under isolation. She shouldn`t have to be kept in a tent alongside the hospital, and I don`t
like the fact that the Governor said to everybody, she`s obviously ill.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Here is what he said -- hold on, stop it.
COOMBS: That was irresponsible.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Here`s what Christie said about the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: Listen, this is a difficult situation to deal with. And my heart goes out to her, because she`s been trying to help others and is
obviously ill.
I know she didn`t want to be there. No one ever wants to be many the hospital, I suspect. So, I understand that. But the fact is, I have a
much bigger responsibility to the people of the public. So when she has time to reflect, she`ll understand that, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m very sympathetic to Governor Christie. I really think he`s got a lot -- a big responsibility. I understand why he would
overcompensate.
But to respond to panic and anxiety. No one so far has contracted, we know something so far, and that`s where I`m sure he`s concerned. But no one has
contracted this illness from someone early in the course. It just doesn`t happen.
TWEEDEN: But, Dr. Drew, if he did not do it, and I do think it`s the government`s responsibility, because this is such a massive thing for the
public, right? I do think it`s his responsibility. We would rather have him go a little overboard --
PINSKY: A little? I`m with you on a little. How about saying you must stay in your house or we`re going to fine you.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: We would have his ass if he didn`t do anything.
PINSKY: Yes, we would. That`s true.
BARNETT: She said that she got off that plane feeling flushed and distraught and disheveled, or something along those lines. So it wasn`t
they made this up out of nowhere and she`s obviously ill. There was signs there that let them believe --
PINSKY: She had a fever.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: We just don`t have all the answers.
PINSKY: That, I`m going to tell you what, somebody used the word draconian to describe the environments of that isolation. Look at the environment
she`s in. That`s ridiculous. If she was absolutely active with the illness, I understand that. But at this stage, that is bizarre to be
dealing with her body fluids like that. It`s bizarre.
Next up, we`re going to continue this debate with the behavior bureau.
And later, we have a video of what the jurors are seeing in the Jodi Arias case. We will see that after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I know she didn`t want to be there. No one ever wants to be in the hospital, I suspect. And so, I understand that. But the fact is, I
have a much greater, bigger responsibility to the people and the public.
HICKOX: If he knew anything about Ebola, he would know that asymptomatic people are not infectious. I feel like my basic human rights have been
violated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and my behavior bureau. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist and professor of Pepperdine University, Erica America,
psychotherapist and television host, and Evy Poumpouras, law enforcement analyst, former Secret Service special agent.
We are discussing the nurse forced to spend three days in quarantine, even though she tested negative for Ebola twice with no symptoms.
Now, Evy, I know you feel this is not necessarily an overreaction. But what do you say?
EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SECRET SERVICE SPECIAL AGENT: You know, Dr. Drew, I think it`s appropriate what they did. Let me share something with you,
after September 11th, I was sent to the hospital, myself and some colleagues. They would not admit us into the hospital unless they
decontaminated us. They set up a tent, similar to what she had, and we went through a long decontamination process.
I don`t want to go through that process, especially after what I and my colleagues endured. But I understood for the betterment of the other
individuals around us, that we needed to go through that.
And so, should understand that, as well. I am sorry for the circumstances that she has been placed in. However, she needs to understand that it has
to do with other people`s lives. But similar --
PINSKY: But, Evy, it doesn`t, it doesn`t. She`s not contagious.
POUMPOURAS: It is irrelevant, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Is that irrelevant?
POUMPOURAS: We`ve seen so many problems with this Ebola situation. It`s not an overreaction. We see that the CDC and the government has dropped
the ball. And what they`re doing is trying to make sure we don`t have any other cases happen.
PINSKY: No, they`re not. The CDC -- these are now the states taking over from the CDC and saying we`re in a panic here.
POUMPOURAS: Because they don`t know what they`re doing.
PINSKY: Because they`re not believing the clinicians who say this is not contagious until their show symptoms.
Judy, you`re shaking your head. You agree with me?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. This is what I call an overcorrection. I believe they`re panicking because of the way that we
have made mistakes or Texas made mistakes the first time this came out.
That is not the situation here. And they should trust the physicians, the nurses, the people whose expertise is to decide if this person is
contagious, and she is not.
PINSKY: Evy, you say no.
POUMPOURAS: The physicians and nurses are the ones getting sick. This is why I`m concerned.
It doesn`t hurt you to sit in a hospital or a tent for an extra two, three, four days.
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Exactly. I`m with you.
POUMPOURAS: I`m offended by the fact that earlier on, we`re comparing this to torture. Torture is what`s happening to those young men out there who
are being beheaded by ISIS. That is torture. Not having your laptop, not having magazines to read or TV, that is not torture.
HO: That`s not what we`re talking about here, Evy. We`re talking about the mental health damage that she is sustaining because she`s being
subjected to this experience. She`s very likely to develop post-traumatic disorder because of this experience.
POUMPOURAS: She`s not going to get post-traumatic stress disorder from treating people with Ebola in Africa? She`s now have disorder just from
being quarantined for a couple of days? Think about that.
HO: No, I am thinking about it, Evy, and I`ve seen it multiple times. And you`re discouraging people to help people who need help.
PINSKY: That`s my concern, Erica, ground zero for this is in West Africa. These are the warriors going over there and they`re coming back and having
their rights taken from them for reasons that are spurious, really primitive, just responding to people`s anxiety.
AMERICA: Sorry, Dr. Drew, completely agree with Evy. I think this is absolutely the right thing to do. Congratulations to the people going over
to help. But they need to know that part of the thing is they are quarantined when they get back.
And 21 days is not a big deal. They have to have a different mindset about it. Yes. Do the conditions need to be better? Yes. But there`s nothing
traumatic about that.
HO: What?
AMERICA: She`s looking at that. She has a mind-set saying I`m being traumatized. It`s 21 days. You are trying to extra careful.
You guys are just seeing it from a completely different way.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m seeing no shower and a hole in the floor and a jail cell.
AMERICA: We need to change that.
SCHACHER: Why can`t she be in isolation in her own home and monitored for 21 days and then when she does -- if she does show symptoms --
AMERICA: Because there was a woman who did that and then she went out to dinner.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: Increase security there. If they`re going to monitor them in a tent next to the hospital, why not do it in their own home?
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: Twenty-one days could be like a spa. You watch movies --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Evy, I`ve kind of coming over to Erica side. But, you know, the self-quarantine idea has got some holes in it for sure. Nancy Schneiderman
was asked to do it, and she seems to have trouble doing it. But part of the reason I suspect she had trouble doing it because she knew she wasn`t
contagious. She knew she wasn`t.
But, Evy, you say we`re going to see more cases. Do you think this is why?
POUMPOURAS: I think my concern is this. You know, people don`t know what to do. They don`t know how to quarantine themselves. You know, nobody
wants to feel they`re sick.
So when we put it in their hands, we`re going to have consequences. I think this is the best safest way that they could think of, kneejerk
reaction, I agree with that. That they could try to quarantine this and try to figure out what to do.
We don`t have a good process set up. I do think that this woman`s, you know, concern, it`s just the way she was treated. Not that she was
quarantined, but the lack of compassion. I don`t think they communicated with her, and that I understand.
But you know what? You also have to take a step back and say, you know what, for the sake and goodness of everybody else around me, let me take a
moment, let me sacrifice a couple of days and --
PINSKY: All right. Well, a couple of days, it`s 21 days in a tent with a hole in the ground.
Judy, you get the idea of the comparing it with Japanese internment.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: I mean, that was all just about panic. When we allow mob, primitive mentality to prevail and not the facts, bad things happen to
people.
HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. This is all about fear and when we have fear in our minds we won`t be able to listen to logic and take information in
that is fact. That is the problem here. Everybody is running on fear and ruling with their emotions.
PINSKY: By the way, I can relate to that, Erica. I saw that physician running around before he was sick took the one train, the Broadway train in
New York, and that`s the train I take all the time, and it gave a little ugh, I got a feeling in my stomach, because that`s my train. But I was
able to then go, oh, he was not symptomatic at that point. So, there was no way he could infect somebody.
AMERICA: Right. But then someone could become symptomatic all of a sudden, and they could, you know, be able to give it to someone else. So,
how do we know when that`s going to happen?
PINSKY: That`s the fear everyone has. But again, it is fear, we have to be rational.
I sympathize with the representatives, with the governors, they are trying to make decisions. And they are trying to do it in behalf of their
individual states and I certainly adhere to that ability, that these states should be making their own decisions on these things. It`s not necessarily
the federal government that should be doing it, but the experts at the CDC do understand this illness, we should be listening to them.
Yes, there were some issues with the deployment of these sterile techniques that were being advocated, and still, things went pretty well, except late
in the illness, when people can contract this thing, that`s when people exude the virus from their skin, through their sweat, through their feces,
their urine, their saliva later. Early, even when they have the low grade fevers, so far, no one has contracted it this that situation. So, let`s
everybody calm down.
But I have something coming up, some damning evidence, this is now about Jodi Arias. We`re switching gears. Jodi Arias jurors today, we will play
it for you, evidence that they heard in court.
And later, my jury is back. They`ve been in the courtroom all day. We`ll hear from them.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that when you took a shower?
ARIAS: I don`t know if I ate the banana first or if I took a shower first.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, before or after the banana, you took a shower.
Do you recognize that?
ARIAS: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is it?
ARIAS: It`s my stuff down there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a picture of your rear end?
ARIAS: Yes
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the time on there?
ARIAS: 1:45 p.m.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After 1:45 p.m., did you take a shower? It was perhaps before or after you ate the banana, right?
ARIAS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exhibit 164, it is an image of a female, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exhibit 166, that`s the image of a male, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Loni, Vanessa and Leann.
Day four of the Jodi Arias death penalty retrial. Should she get life or death?
Shanna Hogan is the author of "Picture Perfect". It is out in paperback tomorrow. She has been covering this story from the beginning.
Shanna, bring us up to speed on today`s events.
SHANNA HOGAN, PICTURE PERFECT (via telephone): You know, it was a bad I wouldn`t say calm today. We saw the videos once again with the detective
and Jodi where she gives both of her stories. But it was very impactful to hear that again. It doesn`t lose its impact when she says on tape to the
detective, that if I did this, I would beg for the death penalty. So, it pretty shocking once again.
PINSKY: Leeann -- thank you, Shanna.
Leeann, I`m thinking of the impact all this sexual material has on the jury. If you were sitting there, would you be more or less likely to think
about the death penalty for this woman? In other words, do you see it as manipulative-ness or did you see it as her being sucked into something that
she didn`t want to be part of?
TWEEDEN: Oh, no, see, Dr. Drew, if I was sitting on the panel, I`m looking at this thinking she was a willing participant, because to me, listening to
all the different -- the audio clips that we`ve been listening to. Remember that one time she was talking to Travis and she was talking about
KY jelly and Travis goes, I`ve never -- I know what KY is, she goes, you don`t -- he`s like, I`ve never used it, I`ve heard of it obviously. But
she`s the one who introduced it.
So, it seems sexually, she was more involved and probably a little more advanced in these crazier little dress-up and play little games things with
sex than he was. So, to me I take that all in, looking at these pictures, listening to her talk to him, all of these -- the things that we heard her
interact with him, to me, I`m thinking she`s no little flower. I don`t think she`s innocent. I don`t think she was coerced. I don`t think she
was abused.
I think she was a willing partner and used her means. Let`s face it, Jodi Arias knows that she`s a pretty girl. She has those like she giggles when
she talks, really, do you want to play dress up, oh, OK, do you want me to play the school girl, she does all of that on purpose. So, listening to
all of these things, it makes me think that she`s a willing participant and she actually might be the one who is in charge here.
PINSKY: Oh, there`s no doubt in my mind. Sam, do you agree with that?
SCHACHER: Yes, I could watch Leeann do that all day.
(LAUGHTER)
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Leeann!
But no, I think it`s crazy because when you look at Jodi Arias` body language when she took the stand and they were talking about the sex tapes
and they were talking and showing her photographs. She was smirking. She was almost getting off on the fact that they were showing these intimate
details about herself, and you could tell she`s reliving it and loves every moment of it.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
PINSKY: Now, the prosecution showed the jury -- they showed the jury the interrogation video. The jury saw the entire thing today. Here`s a little
bit of what they saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: It`s you. I don`t want to cover you up because --
ARIAS: Oh.
POLICE: It`s you, all of you.
ARIAS: That looks like me.
POLICE: That is you. Let`s just say I`ve seen all of you. And I`ve seen all of Travis.
But the one that sticks in my mind of Travis is on the autopsy table.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, I don`t remember seeing that part during the original murder trial. That`s pretty -- gets under your skin, doesn`t it, the lying, the
manipulative-ness. And here`s this interrogator, he knows what he knows, he`s saying, here it is, come on now.
COOMBS: Exactly. And now, the jury also knows because she`s already been convicted of first degree murder. They know she`s the one that killed
Travis.
So, they`re sitting there, watching this stuff, and it`s great for the prosecution to put in front of the jury. They sit there and as you listen
to the detective working along and asking all these questions and she lies again and again, so calmly, so innocently, so sweetly, so, like, who me?
And they know it`s all such a lie. And so, if she does take the stand or she just allocute to them, they`re going to be saying they`re thinking the
same thing. She`s lying to us, just like she did so calmly, so sweetly in the interrogation room. There`s no way to believe her.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa, does that not only make any testimony she gives questionable, but doesn`t that make her seem more cold blooded?
BARNETT: Absolutely. She`s shady. Look, she`s a shady character and people have picked up on that in the first trial, they picked up on that in
the mistrial. And they`re picking on it now.
But, if you listen to that interrogation, she said she would beg for the death penalty. And if I was a juror, and I`d hear those that would make me
want to give it her that much more. Like I said before, I don`t believe in the death penalty, and I don`t think there`s anything wrong with letting
this girl sit and rot in jail and turning the cameras off. We need not to say her - anymore. Once she goes into the jail cell. So she can
understand that no one cares about you anymore, Jodi Arias.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Go ahead, Leeann.
TWEEDEN: Sorry, I was going to say, only if we can guaranty that she doesn`t have her friends .
PINSKY: I know.
TWEEDEN: Doesn`t put her paintings on Twitter.
PINSKY: Of course she`ll .
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: That`s why - give her the death penalty.
PINSKY: That`s why the family is so adamant about having this tried for a death penalty, because they don`t want this to keep going on.
TWEEDEN: Exactly.
PINSKY: You know, a lifetime with this being put in front of them is too much.
Now, anybody else on the panel feel that - having a strange reaction this time.
Last time I was sort of seeing so much of her chaos and her craziness. This time I feel like when they are seeing more of her cold bloodedness. I
know a lot of you kind of nodded your head when I said that before, but I mean the psychopath part seems to be coming through a little more clearly,
at least to me, this time. Loni, what did you say?
COOMBS: Yeah, I think when you look to those interrogation tapes and they hear how - I mean the prosecution really focused on the premeditation this
time. And when you think about how she was planning to stab him with the knife, to shoot him with the gun. All of these different steps.
Does she, you know .
PINSKY: Can I interrupt you?
COOMBS: Yeah.
PINSKY: Is that because the last time they were so busy trying to prove the murder they couldn`t - they did now, they`re getting focusing on just
how premeditated and how cold blooded she is.
COOMBS: Yes. Plus I also think they`re streamlining, which is very smart to do, streamlining to the strongest parts that are really going to stick
in the gut of the jurors. They don`t have to hear all these tangentile (ph) things. You`ve already gotten past the big steps. She`s guilty. Now
you just want to show how cold, how sick she is, but not mentally ill, you don`t want people to feel sorry for her, but how cold-blooded she is. And
then the heinous part of how horrible .
PINSKY: And anybody - anybody hang on to the mental illness piece anymore? She does have some stuff going on.
SCHACHER: But she was aware of what she did.
PINSKY: But it`s why - it`s why people with the similar mental illnesses to her get so upset. They don`t want to be associated with .
TWEEDEN: Well, right, I wouldn`t want to be either.
PINSKY: Yeah.
TWEEDEN: I mean this is a girl that I think just got pissed off that the boy that she was infatuated with was leaving to go to Mexico with another
woman. And she wanted to boil that bunny and say, you are not going anywhere, I`ll take care of that. I mean this girl goes and she gets a
rental car, she gets gas cans, Dr. Drew, so you couldn`t trace her - driving around the state so they couldn`t tell that she was on her way to
his house and then she brutally murders him after she gets him sucked in with some more sex? Come on, man.
SCHACHER: Right. And no coincidence that she does that - the gun from her grandparent`s house was missing a bit earlier.
TWEEDEN: Yes, exactly.
PINSKY: Oh, yeah.
TWEEDEN: When you put it all together, that was premeditated.
PINSKY: What a coincidence.
All right. Let`s bring in the behavior bureau next. And later, should the jury be sequestered, you can take our poll on that question at Facebook -
come forward at - Dr. Drew HLN. We`ll be back with those results after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jodi Arias appears to be not sure mimicking is the right word. She literally, and I think unconsciously, adopts the motor movements, the
look, the hair, the effect of expressions on her face, the degree to what she`s doing this somehow spooks me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It discredits the lawyer a little. Like really, you want a mini me that`s actually a murderer?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau. Judy, Erica, Evy, author Shanna Hogan is still with me as well. And now, during the criminal trial,
Jodi began to take on the appearance, as you saw there, of her attorney Jennifer Willmott, and not just her appearance, but actually the rhythmic
motions of her body and face. It was wild. Seems to be happening again. Here is a photo from today. We got several tweets about it. Sam, you`ve
got some of those, right?
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew. It`s so bizarre. And yes, our viewers share your sentiment or your concern. I should say. From H. Janine, "Oh,
my, side by side, they look like sisters." From Terry Allen, "Twins?" And from Christine C. Floyd, "Evil times two."
PINSKY: Oh, Shanna, what did you observe in courtroom today?
HOGAN: We all know that she loves her attorney, that attorney. She loves - she loves Jennifer Willmott, and, you know, the same thing that I saw
throughout the trial, I saw today with her, you know, almost times like have the head on their hands at the same time, and, you know, they chat
when the videos are playing and, you know, they seem to have a very amicable relationship. It`s kind of creepy, though, how she is taking on
her appearance, and I kind of feel like that`s what she does, she mimics the people that she`s closest around the way that she did with Travis,
(INAUDIBLE), you know, in some way becoming the type of person that he was. It`s just like - her personality, she`s a mirror personality person.
PINSKY: Thanks, Shanna. And Judy, people described her during the previous trial very often as chameleon like. What do you make of this?
HOGAN: Well, it`s one way that borderline personality disorder, people are antisocial personality people.
PINSKY: Correct.
HOGAN: Get people to like them.
PINSKY: Yeah, right.
HOGAN: Because one of the number one things that we like is similarity.
PINSKY: Yeah.
HOGAN: And that`s a huge human condition that she is playing in general.
PINSKY: Now, why do you think -- do you think it`s something she`s aware of she`s doing or she`s just so good at using manipulative techniques and
this is just one she`s come on to?
HOGAN: I think it`s natural for her. She`s seen the response that it gets, so she continues to use it. So, I believe that she`s been using this
for a long time. But there is a secondary reason for why she mirrors people this way, and a secondary reason that oftentimes people with
borderline personality disorder tend to have very fragile ego development.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right. Now, to Erica. Judy brings up really important thing. Last trial, that`s the case I made. I thought oh, she`s
so empty on the inside. We should be sympathetic to the fact that she has no sense of self. She has to take on people around her. But now .
AMERICA: Yeah, that`s what I said.
PINSKY: This time - but this time I`m seeing it more as a specific manipulation.
AMERICA: You know, it absolutely could be that, with the help of the lawyer that it`s a strategy to look really mousy, not like the blond
bombshell she once was.
But I think it also could be an aspect of her mental illness. And I want to say that again, mental illness, which I - why I think she should not be
put to death. I think that borderline personality disorder is a very much a mental illness and because of the fact that she had this severe, severe
deathly fear of being abandoned .
PINSKY: Abandoned. Yeah.
AMERICA: That is why she killed her boyfriend. And if she did not have the mental illness, she would not have killed him.
PINSKY: Now, I .
AMERICA: So, I think that it could be part of it.
PINSKY: OK, but it could be you right, and I do not want to add to the stigma that people with mental illness already have. Particularly those
with borderline personality disorder.
AMERICA: Yeah.
PINSKY: Evy, I would suggest that this is not just mental illness. I know you see the sinister element in many things. What do you see here?
POUMPOURAS: 0It`s not that it`s a sinister element. I do think that a lot of times in crisis management, what happens is, they`ll take the individual
and they`ll almost, you know, change the mold and make them look a little bit different, a little bit more and pathetic. So with her darker hair and
glasses she looks more serious. She also looks like she`s kind of - you know, like she looks very close with her lawyer. She has a more serious
look. So, again, I`m wondering if it`s actually manufactured and intentionally done and if her lawyer actually wants her to do that because
of the way it kind of changes her appearance.
PINSKY: That is, of course, the third possibility, Sam.
SCHACHER: I agree with you, Evy. I mean can you imagine if Jodi Arias paraded around court in tight clothes that we`re used to seeing her wear
with her boobs pushed up to her chin? And her bleached blond hair? The jury would hate her.
PINSKY: But Sam, the - I`m just sort of - you know, we`re trying to figure out which of these three things she does or is.
SCHACHER: It`s probably a combination.
PINSKY: It could be a combination, but again, that one thing that people kept saying about her that she was empty when they looked in her eyes and
she was always chameleon like. And that chameleon like quality may be, Erica, a piece of the emptiness and the borderline disorder. But Judy, we
know she`s such a manipulator that she`s even - if she comes to here because of her borderline process, she uses it to her own benefit.
HO: That`s right. She`s learned over time, based on how people are responding that this works very well. So, this is one of her primary
manipulative qualities. And you saw it in all her relationships, so it`s not just this trial, it`s not just the previous trial, it`s in her
relationship with Travis, it`s in her relationship with other people in her past.
PINSKY: Evy, finish this up.
POUMPOURAS: I just - I do feel very strongly that if her lawyer felt this was a bad idea, she would tell hey, hey, don`t look like me, it`s freaking
everybody out.
PINSKY: Yeah. Yeah.
POUMPOURAS: They really do think that this is orchestrated and this is done intentionally. They have told her. This is what we want you to look
like in court.
PINSKY: Next up, my jury was inside the courtroom today and they are back with us after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS: Lying isn`t typically something I just do.
JODI`S MOM: Her friends calling, told that - she totally freaked out. Like she knew nothing.
JODI ARIAS: I`m not going to say that I never told a lie in my life before this. The lies that I told in this case are - can be tied directly back to
either protecting Travis` reputation or my involvement in his death.
JODI`S MOM: I mean how could somebody do that? How?
PINSKY: Back with Sam and my jurors, I`ve got attorney Monica Lindstrom and journalist Dave Erickson, both inside the courtroom today. Monica, how
did Jodi react to watching these videos of herself lying and denying in such a cold blooded way during the interrogation?
MONICA LINDSTROM, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, for the first time I saw her talking to her attorney, Jennifer Willmott, a lot more than
normal today. I didn`t really see her looking up at the ginormous screen to her right to watch herself. But I did see her writing a little bit more
and talking more to her attorney, kind of turning towards the side. I did not see a whole lot of eye contact between her and the jury. It was more
that her head was down instead of trying to make that connection and get rapport with those jurors. And let me tell you, I can understand why she
was looking at the jurors because there were a couple that looked like they wanted to take her head off.
One lady in the middle of the first row, she just sat there just frowning. And I`m sure she was looking at the screen, but Jodi Arias is very close to
that view. She`s just - she didn`t write anything down. She barely moved. And the guy next to her just sat there, still as a statue. Just taking it
all in. So it was very interesting to see the jurors really change today when they saw her up on the screen. And Jodi Arias still no emotion
whatsoever.
PINSKY: Dave, how about you, did you observe the same thing or something different?
DAVE ERICKSON, JOURNALIST: Oh, absolutely. And it`s interesting, though, because there was another guy on the jury, I don`t have his profile in
front of me, he looked late `30s, maybe early 40s. And while they were playing the audiotapes of the phone conversations between Jodi Arias and
Detective Esteban Flores, this guy was leaning this way, probably at a 45 degree angle, and he was laser focused on Jodi Arias. I don`t know what
this guy was thinking, but his body language, he was just focused in on her, and he`s probably a lot like the rest of us in this courtroom who look
at Jodi Arias.
I know when I look into her eyes and you mentioned this before, there isn`t anything there. They say the eyes are the windows to the soul. Some
people you can see love. Some people you can see hate. When you look into her eyes, there`s nothing. There is no love. There is no hate. And we
sit back and we look at her. We are trying to imagine how such unmitigated rage could come out of this wave, and what was she thinking, what is she
thinking at that moment as she`s watching videotape of herself, when they were showing the interrogation, trying to explain her way out of every
single detail they brought forth. Hey, Jodi, is that you? No, that`s not me. We have photos. Really? You were in the house. No, I wasn`t in the
house. And you could see the gears turning and it`s unbelievable how she tries to manipulate.
SCHACHER: Dave, I`m glad you brought that up, because I wanted to read to you a tweet that we saw earlier, and you wrote, "When I see Jodi Arias in
that interrogation, denying things so obvious, I wonder if she truly believed she could explain her way out of it." So I want to ask you, Dave,
do you think that the jury will buy her explanation?
ERICKSON: I don`t know how anybody of any sound mind could, who has any common sense. And this isn`t even whether you stand for the death penalty
or you don`t. This is just a matter of common sense. When you`re faced with these facts that are irrefutable, how in the word you can continue to
deny it as though these people are morons, I don`t know how she thinks she can get away with it.
PINSKY: You know .
ERICKSON: I`m sure - don`t think anybody on the jury will buy it.
PINSKY: Again, I`m really coming around to this psychopath sort of theory about this woman. If you show psychopath, give them ethical dilemmas and
they come up with sort of ways out of it through lying and manipulating, and you present it back to them as something they`ve done that was wrong,
they go, what are you talking about? I`m trying to save my skin here. Of course, I`m lying. Anybody would lie, right? They don`t understand the
sort of moral consequence. They don`t have a moral compass inside their head. Monica, I`ve got a tweet from you. I want to read it for you. It
says, "I wonder if the juror with the psyche back ground is seeing the bipolar disorder, or the PTSD in the interrogation videos, the "mental
illness?" Now, my question is, if they do think they`re seeing something like that, and by the way, when you say BPD, you mean borderline
personality disorder. Not bipolar disorder, because this - We don`t know that she`s bipolar, we know she`s borderline, because that was specifically
measured during the original case. But do you think that if somebody is seeing that, some mental illness or that part of what Jodi is, do you think
that could be make her sympathetic and less likely to execute her?
LINDSTROM: Oh, yeah, there`s a lot of America that believes that you should not put someone who is sick to death. There`s cases after cases.
And in fact, one of your guests even said that mental illness, people should not be put to death for it. So, on that jury, we have at least one
person who has the psyche background. And another one I believe whose mother has the psyche background. And we have a trauma nurse on there. So
they deal with all kinds of illness and sickness, so they might have some sympathy towards her. And it will be up to - to say hey, look, did you see
all that craziness in that video, in that screen up there where she was denying or she was acting like a little kid and just kind of sitting there,
dumb founded?
PINSKY: Right.
LINDSTROM: Did you see all of that? Well, that goes into the PTSD or the borderline personality disorder or this or that.
PINSKY: Yeah.
LINDSTROM: So it will be very interesting to see if they have any questions for the professionals about that.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Guys, thank you for that update. Really well done. I appreciate it.
Next up, our poll result to this question, should the jury be sequestered? We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Give her death. If you can`t do what you say you can do, don`t be on the jury.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mental fear, anguish that that man must have went through is astronomical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Jodi Arias was a guy, the jury would have found him guilty and sentenced him to death right then and there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If that boy had taken her to Cancun, he would be alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s exactly what she planned. If he (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s what the audience is thinking. I`m back with Sam, Vanessa, Leeann and Evy. And we`re asking you, should the jury have been
sequestered? Vote in that poll, on our Facebook page. Also, join us, this panel will be joining us on our after show about, well, either Ebola or
Jodi Arias. We`ll talk about one of those topics. Right now, more, 60 percent of you say, yes, the jury should be reset - should be sequestered.
All right, Sam, there`s more social media.
SCHACHER: Yes. I have a Facebook post, Dr. Drew, from Susan. She writes, "She was in an abusive relationship. He abused her. No reason to kill
him, but he was not the angel everyone is making him out to be. She needs to pay, but he somewhat caused this to happen. Wow.
BARNETT: What`s the abusive part of this relationship? I don`t understand what she`s pointing to.
PINSKY: He was being sort of sexually aggressive or something. Evy, what do you say?
TWEEDEN: What? I think she was being that way.
PINSKY: I know, I agree with you.
BARNETT: The only person saying that he was an abuser is Jodi who`s a known liar. She`s a liar. She, of course, she`s making this up so that
she doesn`t get the death penalty.
PINSKY: Evy, settle this.
POUMPOURAS: Look, even if it was an abusive relationship, at the end of the day, you don`t have the right to take somebody else`s life like that.
At the end of the day, it`s on her to say you know what, I need to end this relationship and walk away.
PINSKY: Hey, Sam, I just got a tweet I kind of like. It was - we were talking about the mental illness thing .
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: In the previous blog. It`s from Cathy Mancmank (ph). She says as a person with a psyche background and a sister of a schizophrenic, this
mental illness claim would just piss me off, if I were a juror.
POUMPOURAS: Yes!
PINSKY: They can make jurors angry, if they try to make that case. Leeann, what do you think?
TWEEDEN: Totally, it makes me angry. I mean this girl is conniving. She`s smart. She know what she is doing. And she had to plan that whole
thing out and she was just angry and bitter and she`s like, this other girl is not going to have you. I will have my way. And at the end, she let the
anger get the best of her. And she couldn`t control herself.
PINSKY: Sam, try one more.
SCHACHER: OK, one more from Judy. There`s narcissistic, bipolar, psychological and psychopathic behavior. Now she`s probably being
medicated and more in control of her behavior.
PINSKY: That may be true. Every day they get psychiatric care behind bars, right?
POUMPOURAS: Yeah, and they probably did a very thorough forensic assessment on her to see what`s going on with her, if there are any
disorders with her. They are going to give her the proper medication before she goes to the trial system.
PINSKY: There you go.
BARNETT: Halloweird (ph), though.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Halloweird. That`s (NO AUDIO) tonight. All right, "FORENSIC FILES" up next.
END
