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Privately Built Space Rocket Explosion; Discussion of Legality of Mandatory Quarantine; North Korea May Face International Criminal Court

Aired October 29, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the "NEWSROOM," an unmanned rocket headed to the space station explodes seconds after liftoff. The fireball seen for miles. So what went wrong? Plus, growing evidence that ISIS is using chemical weapons on the battlefield. We'll take stock of the brutal effects of chlorine gas as Iraqi Peshmerga fighters gather on the boarder to join the fight against ISIS. And quarantine battle. Maine now saying they will pursue legal action against nurse Kaci Hickox if she violate her quarantine. Are politics and not science driving these quarantine orders? Let's talk, live in the CNN "NEWSROOM."

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We begin this morning with $200 million gone in a ball of fire. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Engines at 108 percent.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: That is an unmanned rocket exploding six seconds after liftoff in Virginia. That rocket was supposed to go to the international space station with thousands of pounds of supplies. Now an investigation is under way to figure out why this happened. CNN's Tom Foreman joins us now with more. Good morning, Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. There's a lot of buzz this morning about these refurbished Russian rockets engines that were driving this. One of them failed during the test back in May so whether or not that has anything to do with this explosion, the space community is looking at them very closely today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we have liftoff.

FOREMAN: The first stage was just seconds into a four-minute burn when the Antares rocket stalled, fell backward and exploded. Nearly three quarters of a million pounds of thrust went haywire and spectators across the bay say the blast shook the ground even there. ED ENCINO, BALTIMORE SUN REPORTER & WITNESS: Immediately probably

about five seconds in you just saw kind of a fireball. And it wasn't -- you could tell something immediately - that something was wrong.

FOREMAN: It also clearly shook Virginia-based orbital sciences, the private contractor that built the rocket under a nearly $2 billion contract with NASA now needs answers.

FRANK CULBERTSON, ORBITAL SCIENCES: The investigation will include evaluating the debris that we will find around the launch pad. If you find anything that washes ashore in the local area or came down in a -- on your farm, definitely do not touch it.

FOREMAN: No one was hurt in the explosion, but gone in a flash, 1,600 pounds of science experiments on everything from meteors to human blood flow. More than 1,600 pounds of hardware, computers, spacewalk equipment. And 1,400 pounds of food for the ISS crew. That does not create an instant emergency, but it will put extra pressure on upcoming missions to reestablish the supply chain to those astronauts in orbit. And the explosion could create political pressure, too, in the continuing debate over how much space travel can or should be put into the hands of private companies.

(EVT)

FOREMAN: I'm getting word, Carol, a lot of people at orbital sciences having a very tough day today because they know that this is a big, big setback to this whole idea of privatized space travel, and particularly for their company. They have to find an answer to this and they have to find it in short order even though NASA is saying they have complete faith in orbital right now, this is definitely a hurdle for this company to clear now, Carol.

COSTELLO: So, who absorbs the cost of this accident, Tom? Is it Orbital or NASA?

FOREMAN: Well, I think it's going to be absorbed by both of them in a way. Orbital is watching its stock get into trouble right now, so it absorbs it in an indirect way immediately. There's some talk about that last night, it was not clear to me where that all shakes out and who pays for what. The bottom line is the cost probably is not the bigger question, it's the long-term costs that people will worry about.

This is a $1.8 billion contract that orbital has to deliver eight different deliveries to the ISS. They've done three of them so far. The question is, does that get interrupted along the way and what does this do for future contracts? Any time something goes wrong in space flight, Carol, you know it's incredibly expensive and in this day in time it reignites the public debate on how that money is being spent.

COSTELLO: Tom Foreman, many thanks, I appreciate it.

Kaci Hickox, the American nurse who was forced to undergo a mandatory quarantine in New Jersey over the weekend after treating Ebola patients abroad is pushing back again. Earlier today, Hickox told NBC's Matt Lauer she is refusing to follow orders to remain in quarantine for 21 days in her home state of Maine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KACI HICKOX, NURSE QUARANTINED AFTER TREATING EBOLA PATIENTS: I don't plan on sticking to the guidelines. I remain appalled by these home quarantine policies that have been forced upon me. Even though I am in perfectly good health, am feeling strong and have been this entire time completely system free. If the restrictions placed on me by the state of Maine are not lifted by Thursday morning, I will go to court to fight for my freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Since her return, Hickox has showed no symptoms and she has tested negative for the virus two times. Let's bring in Dr. Amesh Adalja, he's with the Infectious Disease Society of America. We are also joined by HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson. Welcome to both of you.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. So, Joey, Maine has not filed for a court order just yet, but it's likely to do that sometime today. Do you think it will be successful?

JACKSON: You know, I think they really could be. Because his would have down - it comes down to balancing individual liberties versus the rights of society as a whole. Now, there's a lot we don't know about this and there's been information and misinformation, but what we do know is 21 days apparently is that incubation period, that doctor could speak to that issue.

And so even though she tested negatively, Carol, the issue then becomes could she be positive at some later time. And if she is what danger would that pose to the public. And so it's up to a judge to determine whether her individual liberties are violated, but at this point, based on the fact that she's asymptomatic now, but could be symptomatic in the future a judge could certainly say, you know what? Abide by the rules, stay home mandatorily.

COSTELLO: Doctor Adalja, Kaci Hickox is obviously trying to prove a point here. Is she smart to do that?

DR. AMESH ADALJA, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SOCIETY OF AMERICA: I can't advise her legally, but I do think that she's right that she's not contagious to other people even if she's incubating Ebola because the virus isn't spread until you actually have symptoms so she doesn't pose any risk to others when she was in New Jersey, she doesn't pose any risk to others in Maine. And what she should be - be having done to her, just active monitoring where they measure her temperature and keep track of her symptoms. She doesn't need to be under any kind of quarantine order because she's not a risk.

COSTELLO: So doctor and Joey stand by. Because on the phone we have Steven Hyman, he is Kaci Hickox' lawyer. So, we are going to ask him what he expects to happen today. Welcome, sir. STEVEN HYMAN, ATTORNEY: Hi.

COSTELLO: So, what do you expect to happen today?

HYMAN: I guess the next step is up to Maine. We had been attempting to work with them to try to find some kind of compromise here, but that has not been possible. And I saw from their news conference last night that they intend to try to seek an order. We have received no papers. Kaci has received no papers so at this point she is not under any restriction other than her own voluntary staying in the house today.

COSTELLO: Do you know what could happen if Maine is successful?

HYMAN: Well, I - you know, we're treading in areas that there's not a whole lot of case law and support other than there are two facts -- one is that society has a right to protect itself from legitimate issues of public health. But it can't do it based on what the Supreme Court calls fear and the doctor you just had on has said it all. That she is not contagious, there is no basis. The only reason that there is this cry for quarantine is because the political side has decided that it would just be better if she stayed home and lost her civil rights so we all could feel more comfortable, which is not supported by any medical evidence. There is no ....

COSTELLO: Mr. Hyman, I have Joey Jackson here. He is itching to get in because I think he disagrees with you, frankly.

JACKSON: I know, Mr. Hyman.

HYMAN: I don't know who Joey is. So ...

COSTELLO: He's a defense attorney and our CNN legal analyst. So, Joey ...

HYMAN: OK, hello, Joey.

JACKSON: How are you Mr. Hyman? Listen, but the whole issue behind this, and I get the politics of it. But I wouldn't say that it's just this irrational fear. I think there's a firm basis. The whole point to quarantine people is it takes 21 days for it to manifest itself and so therefore --

HYMAN: No, no. If you quarantine when -- even under the -- if you read the Maine statute ...

JACKSON: If there's probable cause to believe based on epidemiology --

HYMAN: That's just agent.

JACKSON: All right. Here's the point. If we wait for symptoms to manifest themselves, it defeats the whole point of a quarantine. The whole basis ...

HYMAN: No it doesn't! JACKSON: ... is to ensure the public health. This is the argument

you're going to have in court with the attorney general I'm sure.

COSTELLO: I'm going play judge here, so Mr. Hyman respond to that.

HYMAN: There is I mean, it's all make believe. What they want to do is quarantine somebody who is asymptomatic and the fact is even if she became symptomatic and, God forbid that would happen, but if she did she could go to a hospital and there is no evidence, none, that during that period of time she is a risk to the public. There has been no evidence. Look at all the facts that happened with Duncan who unfortunately died.

JACKSON: Exactly.

HYMAN: His family is asymptomatic and remains so.

COSTELLO: Well, I want to bring in another example of the politics versus science, right? Because Kaci Hickox isn't the only one facing this mandatory quarantine. Another American, Ryan Boyko-is being quarantined in Connecticut despite testing negative for the virus not once, but twice. He wasn't even around anybody with Ebola, he just happened to visit West Africa, but he remains in isolation in his apartment with an armed guard outside the door. Listen to what he told Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN BOYKO, EBOLA-FREE AND QUARANTINED IN CONNECTICUT: You can't lock somebody up because they might pose some kind of danger later. It's unfortunate in this country right now that the public health law is very vague in a lot of states and it's just not clear what the government can and can't do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So Mr. Hyman, this is sort of what you're talking about, right?

HYMAN: Of course! There is no evidence and the "New England Journal of Medicine" has a wonderful editorial on this that when you talk to doctors -- not politicians and not people who are just fearful because they would like Kaci to stay home and be secluded from them -- there is no evidence of any medical risk to the society or the community. None. .

JACKSON: But Mr. Hyman, just as a quick aside, Mr. Hyman, but here's the whole point and certainly your client deserves just a boat load of respect and all the people who go and who assist people in West Africa and attempt to make people better, they shouldn't be penalized, but public health officials are at a crossroads. Should you wait until someone becomes systematic, excuse me, symptomatic, or should you quarantine them and act properly and appropriately in advance of that so you can protect the public in the event she has signs, there is no argument.

COSTELLO: Well, let me bring in Dr. Adalja. Because she is - she is getting tested. It's not like she's not doing anything.

HYMAN: Of course. She's tested, by the way, twice a day.

JACKSON: Right. Right.

COSTELLO: Twice a day.

HYMAN: And she's willing to cooperate with the health officials to check her.

COSTELLO: So Dr. Adalja, is that enough?

ADALJA: That's why we have this active - yeah, that is enough. That's why we have active monitoring. She's having her temperature checked, she's having her symptoms logged. If she were to become symptomatic she would be immediately isolated. This isn't like she's out there like some Typhoid Mary spreading the disease. She doesn't pose the risk to others, and as soon as she became symptomatic, appropriate action will be taken. This is really unwarranted and not supported by the science.

JACKSON: Doctor what if she took the test and exhibited symptoms after she came back from having exposure to the general public? Is she going to be tested and monitored hourly? Is she going to be tested by the minute? So, what if she doesn't exhibit any symptoms, she goes out, she intermingles with the public, doctor, she comes back and she tests positive. Then what do we do that she's exposed herself to everyone and then there's a massive public health emergency. You can blame it on politics, you can blame it on overreaction, but the issue is people need to be protected and to feel safe and if they don't it's an issue.

COSTELLO: Mr. Hyman, Mr. Hyman go ahead.

HYMAN: Your statement is hysteria. It has no basis in fact. And in fact, if you read the materials on this, you are -- the issue of contagion -- and I believe the doctor will be able to speak to this better than I can -- is that the minute you develop a fever doesn't mean you're contagious. It then becomes an issue according to the doctors. In fact, contagion doesn't occur until much later. Facts. Duncan's family was not positive and he was with them while he was actually very sick. The same with the nurse.

COSTELLO: Just let me interject because I always like - I just like to step back and like take a breath and I want Dr. Adalja to answer this. Because if you really look at it, the only people who have come down with Ebola in this country are health care workers who were treating an Ebola patient in the hospital. Right? So put it into perspective for us, doctor.

ADALJA: Right, exactly. So, Ebola is a deadly disease, it's a scary disease, but it's not very contagious. It's only spread through blood and body fluids. Direct contact with - so even if someone has a fever, unless they are emitting blood and body fluids, having vomiting or diarrhea, they can't actually give it to somebody else. And I think people are losing that in this debate. That this is not a very contagious disease and health care workers were taking care of a very sick patient who had- was on a mechanical ventilator, had continuous dialysis, a lot of body fluid exposure. So, that's really completely different than casual exposures that you might be talking about with these asymptomatic individuals. They don't pose a risk. This isn't Typhoid Mary and I think that people need to put this into proper context.

JACKSON: Doctor, can I ask - if I can ask you a question, what if though somebody goes out and based upon them not feeling well they happen to vomit in a public bathroom or in a public place or on a subway or in -- on the bus or public transportation system. I don't want to feed into hysteria, I just want to get to the core issue of whether the politicians, as Mr. Hyman is referring to, are taking reasonable steps and measures to protect the public and that's the concern. That Carol brought up the issue that, yes, medical health professionals have in fact, you know, come down with the symptoms based upon them being vomited on, or some other such thing, but that's a probability, that could happen, could it not?

ADALJA: There is CDC guidance that accords different levels of restrictions on a person's activity. Now, what we would do, is apply that thing in individual case. Has she - is she someone that should not be on public transportation? Is she someone that just should be in private vehicles? There are different gradations that the CDC guidance actually recommends. And what I agree with, because you can't just do this blanket type of quarantine because you're restricting people's liberty and they are not showing - unless they show a material threat to others and that's proven, you shouldn't really be doing this kind of quarantine.

JACKSON: But you're doing it for the good of the public and the public's view has to be balanced against the individual's right to freedom. And when you're potentially contaminating a number of people who could then contaminate others, it then becomes a bigger problem.

COSTELLO: I know what Mr. Hyman is going to say, Kaci Hickox is not contagious, she doesn't have Ebola, she hasn't tested positive for Ebola, she doesn't have a fever. She's saying, you know, come take my temperature, I'll do it twice a day, I'll gladly do that, but I'm not sick, so why should you confine me in my home?

ADALJA: The voice of reason, Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, I'm just - I don't like hysteria, I like facts. So, Mr. Hyman, how far is Kaci Hickox willing to take this?

HYMAN: Well, apparently, I mean, Kaci is her own boss in this. We are only lawyers. But - and she is the one who has spoken out and at least brought this issue front and center. She is prepared to take it as far as it has to go. She's hoping that common sense and reason will prevail and that this does not have to become the hysteria of you've got to stay in your house. I mean it's absurd that she has to be quarantined in her house because somebody is scared that maybe someday she may become sick. It's just ....

COSTELLO: But here's what's also happening, and I'm going to pose this to the doctor. So, I was reading the Maine newspapers this morning, people are afraid to go to the hospital because health care workers are coming down with Ebola. People are afraid to get on airplanes because there's a chance you could catch Ebola flying with someone who was infected. So there is a sense of sort of fear out there that's probably unnecessary.

ADALJA: Definitely. The country is in a panic and they've forgotten all of the science behind Ebola. They really are afraid of catching it and you can't get it through casual contact. And we're doing a lot of harm when you feed into this panic because people aren't going to get it on airplanes because - unless you're directly sitting next to someone who vomits on you. It's not something that's transmitted like the cold or influenza or measles or tuberculosis.

We have got bigger problems in the infectious disease world to worry about than Ebola. We have got an influenza season about to start and thousands of Americans are going to die from influenza, if yet, they're still not getting flu shots. So, there has to be some - a recalibration of this threat analysis that's going on by the U.S. public and we have to dampen this panic because it's not serving any good purpose and it's making everybody's job a lot harder because public health has to respond to all this panic when someone sneezes on an airplane and they quarantine the whole airplane. This detracts from actual resources of stopping the outbreak at its source in West Africa.

COSTELLO: OK, I just got a statement from Maine's Governor, Paul LePage. And I'm reading this for the first time. So bear with me here. , Paul LePage says "We hope that the health care worker would voluntarily comply with these protocols, but this individual has stated publicly she will not abide by the protocols. We are very concerned about her safety and the health and that of the community. We're exploring all of our options for protecting the health and well- being of the health care worker. Anyone who comes into contact with her, the Fort Kent community and all of Maine. While we certainly respect the rights of one individual, we must be vigilant in protecting 1.3 million Mainers as well as anyone who visits our great state. So Mr. Hyman, any reaction to that statement?

HYMAN: That's a wonderful statement. I wish them well in protecting. He didn't say that she has to stay in her house. If - if - we are happy to cooperate with Maine officials that will respect Kaci's rights as a citizen and one who did noble or, as the president called it, God's work and is not sick to go about her life in some fashion, to have her checked and monitored to make sure she is not ill and if there is any indication she gets immediately hospitalized and taken care of, she will comply with what the rational and scientific medical protocols are. And if the governor wants assurance with regard to that, he has it, he wants her to work with the public health officials who I have spoken to, we will. But simply saying she has to stay in her house, that's unacceptable.

COSTELLO: All right. Thank you so much for joining me, Steven Hyman, Kaci Hickox' attorney, Dr. Amesh Adalja and CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson. Thanks to all of you.

HYMAN: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

ADALJA: Good luck, Mr. Hyman.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We may now know why North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un vanished from public sight for six weeks. He was seen limping back in September and then he disappeared until earlier this month. Well now a South Korean lawmaker tells CNN the North Korean leader had a cyst removed from his right ankle and European experts handled the surgery. Kim is coming back into the spotlight as a top U.N. official calls for North Korea to face the International Criminal Court on charges of crimes against humanity even while the country is on a sudden charm offensive. CNN's Paula Hancocks is covering it all for us.

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PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pyongyang's recent charm offensive is showing no signs of slowing down. The U.N. rapporteur for human rights in North Korea has said that he had a surprise meeting with North Korean officials earlier this week and they may be willing to invite human rights investigators into the country.

Marzuki Darusman gave his annual report on the rights situation Tuesday saying he welcomes the signs of increased engagement by North Korea, but attention must not be diverted from holding those who commit human rights abuses accountable. The U.N. submitted a commission of inquiry in March, accusing Pyongyang of murder, torture, slavery, sexual violence, and mass starvation. The report says some abuses, including those committed in prison camps, amount to crimes against humanity. North Korea's ambassador to the U.N. rejected the reports' findings saying there are no such violations in the country.

Pyongyang has been sending officials all over the world recently trying to soften its image and mitigate the impact of this report, but Darusman says it should still be referred to the Security Council and the country referred to the International Criminal Court. Meanwhile, South Korea's intelligence agency has said they believe Kim Jong-Un had a cyst removed from his left ankle recently, explaining why he disappeared for five weeks and why he reappeared with a cane. The agency says it also believes that there's an ongoing political purge in Pyongyang and that ten party members have recently been executed by firing squad. The agency believes that their crimes ranged from corruption to women's issues to something as seemingly innocuous as watching South Korean soap operas. Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Still to come in the "NEWSROOM," a slow river of lava marching toward neighborhoods on Hawaii's Big Island. It could swallow a dozen homes in the next day and no one can stop it. We'll talk to a geophysicist about this next.

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