Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Nurse Threatens Lawsuit Over Quarantine; Women Fighting ISIS; Secret Service Scandal

Aired October 29, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And now this. We continue on, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We're watching the White House very closely because, if all is on schedule today, President Obama is right now doing something many in America, quite frankly, are afraid to do, meet these health care workers, shake their hands. These are folks just back from caring with Ebola patients or headed to the Ebola hot zones in countries like Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Guinea.

The president is also scheduled to speak a little later this hour after that meeting. And so we will definitely take that live for you here on CNN.

This will make the second day in a row the president is speaking about Ebola. We saw this scene right around this time yesterday before he hopped into Marine One for a campaign stop talking about those automatic quarantines for workers who do not have any symptoms, reactions, he says, that are based on, his word, fear.

Yet, today, you have the secretary of defense ordering a mandatory quarantine for all U.S. troops returning from the Ebola-affected nations in West Africa. You know, these are men and women who are actually, many of them, not going anywhere near any of the sick. The policy will be reviewed in 45 days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is also a policy that was discussed in great detail by the communities, by the families of our military men and women. And they very much wanted a safety valve on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, with me now, one of those doctors who will be in a room with the president of the United States in a couple of minutes, our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

So, before you have to hop in the White House, Sanjay, I think it's just important underscoring the optics of this whole thing that I mentioned a moment ago, right? You have some of these doctors fairly fresh from coming into the states from West Africa. These are people, according to different states, who would be saying, you need to stay home. Yet they are walking into the home behind you. DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think, as

much as what you are going to hear at this meeting, I think it's what you are going to see, as you point out, Brooke.

It's a strong statement. I think about this from a medical history standpoint. I remember when President Clinton, former President Clinton in the early '90s was hugging AIDS patients up on a stage. And it was an important moment. He was sending a message that this is OK.

And now you have President Obama, who is going to be in this room with, as you mentioned, doctors and health care workers who -- some of whom have just returned from West Africa. We saw this last week as he hugged Nina Pham, a nurse who just recovered from Ebola.

So, I think it's going to be really interesting. And I think it also sends a message to these states, who are saying, you must quarantined when you come back. Here in Washington, they're saying, actually, you can come to the White House when you come back, so interesting.

BALDWIN: You can understand, though, some of the confusion among members of the public, because you have certain policies from the CDC and certain policies from the different states.

And now we have this news from the Department of Defense pertaining to these troops who will be under mandatory quarantine when they come home. I think it's important to point out -- and I believe this is something I read from Secretary Hagel. And I would love to just hear your medical expertise--

GUPTA: Sure.

BALDWIN: -- is, these are not necessarily doctors and nurses who know how to take their temperatures. Right? It's one thing for Kaci Hickox to come back from West Africa and check her temperature twice a day. It's quite another to ask someone to do that if they don't know how.

GUPTA: Look, yes.

I heard that as well. I'm not sure how challenging that is to take your own temperature, but it's a fair point if you worry that someone is not going to be compliant with this. In fact, you will remember, in Dallas, Mr. Duncan, some of his close contacts, the reason they were quarantined is not because they were sick.

It's because the concern was that they would not be compliant with this monitoring program. So, it's not so much a threat to the public health, as much as it trying to basically sequester people in one place to make sure that they're compliant.

Quarantine probably is the wrong word, frankly, in that situation, because quarantine implies that you're protecting the public's health in some way. This isn't, because these people are not sick.

BALDWIN: Thus some of the confusion. Dr. Gupta, we will let you go and head into the White House with the meeting with the president. Thank you so much.

GUPTA: You got it.

BALDWIN: Let us--

GUPTA: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will see how it goes. We will be hearing from the president later this hour.

We mentioned Kaci Hickox. She's the nurse. She's one of those who fought on the front lines of that Ebola outbreak in Sierra Leone working with Doctors Without Borders. She just returned home Friday, I should say, to the United States Friday, not quite home until now, but she's taking this battle to a whole different level in her home state in Maine.

Let me show you a picture. This is her home in Fort Kent, where state police patrol cars are camped outside of this home. They are watching her. Hickox, who is well right now, not showing any symptoms, which means at this moment she would not be contagious, says she will not obey a state-ordered quarantine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KACI HICKOX, NURSE: I don't plan on sticking to the guidelines. I remain appalled by these home quarantine policies that have been forced upon me, even though I am in perfectly good health and feeling strong and have been this entire time completely symptom-free.

I truly believe that this policy is not scientifically nor constitutionally just. And so I am not going to sit around and be bullied by politicians and forced to stay in my home, when I am not a risk to the American public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about her case with Dr. Alexander Garza, used to be the assistant secretary for health affairs at the Department of Homeland Security.

Dr. Garza, welcome back.

DR. ALEXANDER GARZA, ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND SOCIAL JUSTICE: Hi, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And just tapping into your medical expertise, do me a favor and put yourself in Kaci Hickox's shoes. Given what we know about the public conceptions and misperceptions about Ebola and the science, would you stay put in that home for 21 days or not?

GARZA: Well, I think that's a fair question. I also think they probably picked the wrong person to test this quarantine order on, because she's proved to be a pretty formidable opponent.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: I believe her boyfriend said, they picked the -- they picked the wrong redhead to mess with.

GARZA: Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

So, but as far as the quarantine order goes, I think she has a valid point, that she's at no risk to anybody in the public. However, when you're discussing public policy, there's two different forms of risk. So, there's the scientific risk that I understand as a physician that I'm at that a person that's exposed to Ebola, but is asymptomatic, but absolutely no risk to anybody else.

But then there's the public perception and the personal view of risk, which is very different. And so when you're crafting policy, you have to take both sorts of views into consideration to come up with what is the most workable effort.

When you look at the CDC guidelines, she clearly fits that middle ground of some risk, but asymptomatic. And they really left that open to a lot of interpretation on what the states could do to enforce either quarantinable measures or controlled movement or directive surveillance and things like that. And so they left a lot of open ground to the states to be able to dictate what they would like to do.

But really she's at very, very low -- actually at no risk because she's asymptomatic. And so she has a very valid point about fighting this quarantine order.

BALDWIN: But, Dr. Garza, I'm hearing all of this and I guess at the end of the day, though, given both sides, should she, would you stay put?

GARZA: Would I stay put?

Well, that's a good question. I think, to be put on the spot, I'm not sure if I would or not.

BALDWIN: Really?

GARZA: I have children, but I was asked recently by my neighbor, who is married to a physician -- and you would think that these people would be used to dealing with medical issues -- if I would have any problem going home after serving in Liberia.

And I said, as long as I was asymptomatic, I would have no problem staying with my children and being with my wife and being in my family. Now, whether I would actively go out in public I think is another question, just -- and for many reasons, one not so much that I feel like I'm at risk to other people, but also trying to tamp down public anxiety, I think, is also a valid goal.

BALDWIN: You don't want to create a stir.

GARZA: Exactly.

And I think you heard that from the cameraman in the previous story that he didn't want to create anxiety at these public gatherings. Therefore, he chose not to go.

BALDWIN: I'm glad you were watching. I just thought about that pumpkin patch full of 9,000 people--

GARZA: Yes.

BALDWIN: -- and thought, my goodness, if I lived in Providence and saw this guy's face splattered all over the papers, maybe he did make the right decision.

GARZA: Yes.

BALDWIN: But let me ask you about something I was just asking Sanjay about, about the Defense Department saying to these troops when they come home, you have to be quarantined for 21 days.

Do you think, again, back to the mixed messaging, but at the same time, some of these folks, they are not health care professionals. Is that the right message to be sending?

GARZA: Right.

So, Brooke, I'm an active reservist in the U.S. Army, so I can't publicly comment on DOD policy. But what I can tell you is that, to me, I wasn't too surprised. And I will tell you why. The DOD, by and large, puts restrictions on their population that rest of the civilian population wouldn't do.

So, for instance, things as simple as riding a motorcycle on base. So, if you want to ride a motorcycle on a DOD base, you have to take specific training every year that the civilian population doesn't do, safety training. You have to wear a reflective vest while you're on your motorcycle.

These are DOD rules to impose safety upon their population. So I wasn't entirely surprised when they came out with this -- with what some people call a divergent policy in the administration, but, to me, entirely consistent with the way that DOD operates.

BALDWIN: That exactly -- that totally jibes with what we heard from the president when he was speaking about this yesterday. You have military and then you have civilians, apples and oranges.

GARZA: Yes. Yes.

BALDWIN: Dr. Alexander Garza, thank you so much.

GARZA: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Really, really appreciate you coming on.

We mentioned Kaci Hickox, that nurse who is now in Maine. She also made headlines by saying she will take legal action to protect her freedom, if need be.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HICKOX: If the restrictions placed on me by the state of Maine are not lifted by Thursday morning, I will go to court to fight for my freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: If that happens, would she have a case? Can the government legally quarantine someone who doesn't have any symptoms of Ebola? We will talk to a lawyer ahead.

Plus, remember the scandal in Cartagena, Colombia, Secret Service agents entertaining prostitutes ahead of the president's visit there? Well, now the man who investigated that incident is off the job, reportedly because he visited a prostitute. How he was caught, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: There is a new twist in that Secret Service prostitution scandal. You remember this? This is back in April of 2012 during the last presidential election. News broke that Secret Service agents had brought prostitutes back to their hotel rooms in Cartagena, Colombia.

Nearly two dozen agents and members of the military were punished or fired. And now we have learned the lead investigator over that case, the man who said the government didn't do enough to investigate this scandal, resigned because he allegedly was caught in a prostitution scandal all of his own.

So, to Washington we go, to our senior correspondent there, Joe Johns.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And, Joe, oh, the irony.

JOHNS: Yes, that's for sure.

Like you say, David Nieland was an investigator who worked for the inspector general's office in Miami. He was at the center of the government's review of the scandal involving Secret Service agents, prostitutes in Cartagena in 2012. Now he's out of a job after allegations surfaced that he visited a prostitute himself. The Department of Homeland Security says he separated from the federal service on August 9 of this year, and so a lot of people are asking a lot of questions at this stage, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What is he saying about the allegation?

JOHNS: Well, no charges have been filed, and Nieland really has not commented to CNN, though "The New York Times" says he did deny the allegation when they asked him about it.

DHS says it does not comment on personnel investigative matters. But there does seem to be quite a story here. The twist in the story happened in the spring in Broward County, Florida. Sources said Nieland was seen entering and leaving a building that was under surveillance for prostitution by sheriff's deputies down there.

And when they asked him about it, he said he was doing a federal investigation into human trafficking. But the deputies were not able to find anybody in the government to confirm that the investigation was going on. And sources tell CNN's Evan Perez that the deputies stopped their operation because they were concerned about conflicting with the federal probe.

After they checked it out, DHS learned that he had been implicated in this prostitution investigation. Now, important to say, Brooke, Nieland had become a thorn in the side of the Obama administration, because he suggested there may have been political pressure to leave information out of the initial reports on Cartagena.

So, some of this is being viewed with skepticism on Capitol Hill because, basically, his credibility has really been called into question.

BALDWIN: Sounds like it. Joe Johns, thank you very much in D.C. for me.

We have been telling you a lot about the Iraqis, the Syrians picking up weapons to fight ISIS. But did you know that many of them are women? My next guest will speak with me about why women are taking up arms and why she believes they have more to lose from ISIS than anyone else. She will explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Reinforcements are on the way to fight the terror group ISIS in the ravaged city of Kobani on Syria's border with Turkey.

Kurdish fighters from Northern Iraq flew to a base in Turkey and then bussed it down to the border. They were to meet up there with trucks of heavy weapons also sent in from Iraq and then take that, cross the Syrian border into Kobani, the scene of bloody fighting for the past five weeks.

That convoy of weapons sparked street celebrations -- look at this -- as it rumbled across NATO member Turkey. And when the Kurds from Iraq arrive at the scene of battle, ISIS will be in a fight against three major militias. You see them on your screen. Let me just begin with the first.

The Syrian Kurds, that's the YPG, and then you have the Iraqi Kurds, the PKK, and finally the Free Syrian Army. And then U.S. airstrikes certainly aiding those fighters' cause.

But did you know this, that up to one in three fighters from the YPG, one of the groups we just mentioned, are women? That's right. Some of those women are actually commanders. One reason to fight, this is actually a quote from my next guest -- one reason really fight is that women have more to lose than anyone else.

That is from Frida Ghitis. She is world affairs columnist for "The Miami Herald," writing for us here at CNN.com. So, Frida, it's wonderful to have you on.

Obviously, I read the piece. We have been e-mailing back and forth on it. So, I just want to begin with your point. Why is it that these women have more to lose from ISIS than anyone else?

FRIDA GHITIS, "THE MIAMI HERALD": Brooke, the story of the fight against ISIS is a tragedy. It's a terribly sad story, but it's also one that it can be very hopeful.

The participation of women in the battle against ISIS is really a remarkable development. Women have seen that the views of ISIS and the actions of ISIS have put their lives in peril in a way that is different from the way it does with men. ISIS is proclaiming its triumph in returning slavery, the slavery of women to the modern age.

It's really a totally unacceptable way of looking at the world, and women in the region are saying, we are just not going to accept it.

BALDWIN: I want to get to your point about hope in a minute, but I'm wondering why here, because, sadly, there are plenty of other countries where women are kidnapped and raped and sold into slavery, even murdered with impunity. So, what is it about these women, Frida, in particular that is making them stand up and essentially say, stop or I will shoot?

GHITIS: Well, these women that we have seen in the recent stories of women who are armed, who are carrying rifles, they are Kurdish women.

And the Kurds have a history of resisting oppression, of resisting attempts to exterminate them. So, they have created militias for a long, long time. And they are more -- more egalitarian than most people in that region. Women have been a part of Kurdish militias for a long, long time.

And now they have seen what is happening, and they have -- they have joined the fight in greater numbers. Like you say, at least a third of the women -- fighting for Kobani are women.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the alternative, right? They have a lot to lose.

I have talked to a lot of military experts as we have been covering this part of the world, and they have said to me, Brooke -- and we see what happened with Mount Sinjar, for example. You have these married men and women who are forced to flee, that the husbands are killed, the women leave. The women then, if they don't go to fight, are oftentimes forced into marriage.

Then their ISIS husband ultimately is killed. And, from what I understand from some of these military officials who have been to this part of the world, they say a lot of times, because those women become outcast, they then become suicide bombers. That is a -- quite a different trajectory these women can take.

GHITIS: There's a whole range of horrific outcomes for the lives of these women.

And I think when we talk about women being forced into becoming wives, we should be careful. Just calling it a marriage may not be the right -- the most accurate.

BALDWIN: Yes, I know. Saying husband isn't the right--

GHITIS: It's sexual slavery. It's sexual slavery.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GHITIS: And, you know, I want to note one other thing.

And it's that we are talking a lot about the women who have taken up arms. But women have -- women, not just Kurdish women, but other women in the region have led the fight against ISIS. There is -- there was the -- you mentioned the Yazidis, Mount Sinjar event that is -- that was a moment that the rest of the world realized how -- what was happening here, that we were at risk of seeing a new genocide.

And the reason we learned about that is because a woman, a Yazidi woman who is a member of Parliament in Iraq, went to Baghdad, and who made a heart-wrenching speech saying, my people are being exterminated. Help us.

And that was the moment. The words of that woman, those were the words that turned the world's attention to what was happening and brought even U.S. airstrikes. There are other -- other ways in which women are becoming involved in the fight. When the ISIS fighters took over Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq, the women in the hospital there, the doctors, very modern women, were told immediately that they had to cover themselves.

And they said, we can't work like that. Doctors, surgeons can't work with their faces covered. And they started a strike. They started resistance against ISIS. One of the women -- at least one of those doctors was killed. A lot of women in Mosul and in that area have led protests against ISIS. And many have paid with their lives.

BALDWIN: I am so glad you and your piece and other journalists I have certainly spoken to on this show are shining the light on women overseas fighting and the sense of hope.

Frida Ghitis, thank you so much for sharing. I truly appreciate you coming on.

GHITIS: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next: public safety vs. civil liberties.

Kaci Hickox, the nurse recently returning home from West Africa after treating Ebola patients, now says she will not self-quarantine at her home in Maine and is threatening legal action. Can the government, can the state of Maine legally quarantine someone who is not showing symptoms? We will talk to Paul Callan, our legal expert, coming up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)