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Nancy Grace
California Woman Shot to Death in Road Rage Attack
Aired October 29, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. To Brookfield village suburbs. A gorgeous young mom of four leaves a supermarket, en route back
home, Mommy shot dead in the face by an out-of-control road rager! Bombshell tonight. At this hour, no leads on the man that guns down Mommy.
As her family prepares for her funeral tonight, we want to catch her killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirty-year-old Perla Avina is a mother of four children. She was in the car with her husband going south on 98th Avenue
when someone in another car shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She succumbed to a fatal gunshot wound.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shooting was the result of road rage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Minnesota, a 2-month-old infant boy found bitten and pummeled dead. When questioned, Daddy says the dog did it. Hey, Daddy,
you ever heard of forensic dentistry? The bite marks on your son`s body are human!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say he beat and bit his infant son to death, and then allegedly blamed the injuries on the neighbor`s dog. Police say
the doctors told them little Joseph (ph) died of severe blunt trauma. Jenkins (ph) allegedly told them the baby fell in the bathtub and on the
swings a week earlier, and four days ago was bitten by a neighbor`s dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live, Talladega Speedway, where a mom of three disappears.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Brookfield village suburbs, a gorgeous young mom of four leaves a supermarket, en route back home, Mommy shot in
the face dead by an out-of-control road rager. And at this hour, no leads on the man that guns down Mommy. As her family prepares for a funeral,
tonight, we want to catch her killer.
Straight out to Henry K. Lee with "The San Francisco Chronicle." Henry, I`m sick! I am sick about this. It`s hard enough to raise two
children, like me. This lady has four children, ages 1 to 14, married, high school sweetheart, happy marriage. That Sunday -- I mean, that day,
they go out to get the ingredients for her to make the same thing they make every Sunday during football season, and they -- it`s a homemade dish and
they serve it during the ball game.
They go to the grocery store. They pull out. Before they can even get home -- and it`s just less than a couple of miles home -- Mommy`s dead,
dead, with four children to raise? Henry, what happened?
HENRY K. LEE, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE" (via telephone): Well, exactly what transpired, as far as the road rage aspect, we don`t know,
Nancy. But according to Luis (ph), the bereaved widower, he is telling me he was driving home from the store, with his wife sitting in the front
passenger seat, when someone opened fire, and now, indeed, four children are motherless.
I spoke to Luis outside his home -- clearly shaken. He has no words to describe all the tragedy that his family is feeling right now.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a special guest, the best friend of this beautiful mom of four. With me right now, Mayra Rodriguez. Mayra,
thank you for being with us.
MAYRA RODRIGUEZ, BEST FRIEND OF VICTIM (via telephone): Thank you for having me.
GRACE: You know, I`m just having a hard time accepting -- this mom, your best friend, goes in the grocery store. She gets all the stuff to
make the dish they have every football Sunday. She comes out. They`re driving home, minding their own business, and some out-of-control road
rager opens fire on their car.
Mayra, well, when did you first learn about this?
RODRIGUEZ: I learned it on Sunday, probably around 1:00 PM, when one of our closest friends, you know, called me and asked if I knew what had
happened to her. And of course, I had no idea. She wasn`t too sure of what had happened, either, so we both decided to drive to her house.
And sure enough, as soon as we got there, we saw, you know, the street was blocked off. The police officers were there, and there was blood on
the ground. Luis, her husband, had blood all over him. I mean, his white shirt was covered in blood. I didn`t get to see her. But you know, that`s
when I got the news.
GRACE: With me is Perla`s very best friend, Mayra. Mayra, her children just must be in shock. How are they?
RODRIGUEZ: You said it. They`re in shock. And I don`t think...
GRACE: I mean, Mayra, when I even have to go out of town, like when I go out of town, like for Jodi Arias or whatever trial, my children cry. I
call them on the phone. They cry. When I am late from work, they cry. They wait up for me to get home. I`m just -- one of these children is,
like, 1 year old, and they don`t have Mommy?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, it`s -- I mean, it`s heartbreaking, going to the house, seeing them, I mean, seeing the little ones call out for her and
just seeing, you know, the pictures of her with the candles and the flowers. It`s just hard to see.
GRACE: You are actually a godmother, as well, in this family.
RODRIGUEZ: Correct.
GRACE: What are the children saying? Do they even know Mommy is in heaven? Do they even know what`s happened?
RODRIGUEZ: I mean, yes, they do because, of course, they see everyone there, and they ask questions. But I think they still haven`t really
processed what has happened. I think -- you know, my goddaughter said, you know, to my friend the other day, Mommy`s coming back. She`ll be back in
seven weeks. So I just don`t think she understands.
GRACE: The baby said she`ll be back in seven weeks. Mayra, the baby said Mommy`ll be back in seven weeks?
RODRIGUEZ: Yes.
GRACE: Oh! Oh, man! Mayra Rodriguez is with us. This was Perla`s best friend, the godmother to their children.
What is your understanding of what, if anything, prompted this road rage? We`ve been trying to find out. I know they were in a supermarket
parking lot. OK, they go out into the traffic. And then all of a sudden, this guy starts unloading.
I`m trying to figure out what brought on the road rage, if anything. I mean, did the husband unwittingly cut somebody off in the parking lot?
Did he, you know, veer over in somebody`s lane? I mean, they weren`t even on the freeway, were they, Mayra?
RODRIGUEZ: No, they weren`t on the freeway. They were actually on the street coming back home from the grocery store. I mean, this happened
just, you know, I believe, two blocks away from her home. And the husband, Mando (ph), he doesn`t remember exactly, I mean, what happened. I don`t
think he wants to remember, I mean, seeing his wife the way he did. I think right now, he`s trying to just block all of those emotions.
GRACE: Well, you know, Mayra, I know a lot of people don`t understand that, but I still have a lot of vagueness and ambiguity around the time my
fiance was murdered. There are details surrounding that I could not tell you if I had to tell you. I don`t know why the human mind works that way.
What is your understanding, Mayra, of what happened?
RODRIGUEZ: I mean, what I understand is, you know, they were coming home. There was, you know, some -- some guy, I don`t know, some type of
road rage. I guess they cut each other off, and I guess he let him go, and next thing you know, he pulls out a gun and starts shooting.
GRACE: Well, I mean, this was not on a freeway, as you`re saying.
Back to Henry K. Lee with "San Francisco Chronicle." I mean, they couldn`t have been going very fast because this is not on the interstate.
This is not a freeway.
This is -- every -- all of you moms out there, who -- this was on an early Sunday morning before church. They go. It`s their ritual during
football season, and they get all these ingredients for this dish they make. And they`re pulling out of the supermarket. I mean, how many times
have you rushed into the grocery store, you rush back out, your children are waiting at home, you`re trying to get home. They`re two blocks from
home. Then bam, your whole world falls apart.
So Henry, my point is, they couldn`t have been, like, speeding on the interstate and there was a high-speed game of cat-and-mouse with a road
rager. I mean, they had just pulled out of the supermarket on a Sunday morning, for Pete`s sake!
LEE: That`s right, Nancy. Sadly, here in Oakland, we have seen a lot of disputes that are just egregious and do not make any sense. And what
would normally be handled in some kind of maybe sharp words nowadays is handled with gunfire. We`ve seen, unfortunately, road rage cases on the
freeway, on surface streets, even in shopping center parking lots, where two people get into it, and rather than talk about it like adult human
beings, someone turns to gunfire.
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a 30-year-old young mom gunned down, shot dead in the face, a mother of four, as she`s leaving the
supermarket, by some out-of-control road rager! And tonight, we don`t even have a clue of the make or model of the car, what the perp looks like. We
know nothing.
But I know this, her family preparing for a funeral and for their mother to be laid to rest, and the little baby saying, Oh, Mommy`ll be home
in seven weeks. I want this perp brought to justice!
Michael Christian, I don`t understand -- we don`t know the make or model of the car. But what about red lights that have cameras on them,
which is practically every red light there is now? Aren`t there -- I mean, this is in a residential area outside a supermarket. Shouldn`t there be
red lights with cameras attached every couple of blocks?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): That`s right, Nancy. As you say, this was a local street. And between the
supermarket and the shooting site, there were actually six traffic lights, and five of those six did, indeed, have cameras. So you can certainly bet
that police will be examining that footage.
GRACE: OK, Henry K. Lee, "San Francisco Chronicle," explain to me the hold-up. I mean, that should be caught on camera, right? And is there
surveillance video of Mommy and Daddy in the grocery store?
LEE: We don`t know if that is the case. Oakland police traditionally want to keep things tight to the vest. They want to exhaust all their
investigative leads before they put out things such as video surveillance, pictures of any potential suspects. So they want to clear the air first.
And they have requested anyone with residential security or business security cameras to come forward and provide a video to them before they
put it out to the public, if they do at all.
GRACE: OK. Another thing, Henry K. Lee -- everybody, just joining us -- a mom of four gunned down leaving the supermarket on a Sunday morning en
route home to her four children that are waiting on her. Henry K. Lee joining us, along with Mayra Rodriguez, her best friend and the godmother
to the children.
Out to the lines. Hi, Lisa. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, I know this is not right, shooting or any type of crime. But my question is, because of road rage, is it possible he
can use the excuse as he didn`t see where he was shooting because he was in a car or a vehicle?
GRACE: Well, actually, Lisa, he could try that, but there is another theory to support murder one, and that is called abandoned (ph) or
malignant heart. What that means is, for instance, you get your car and you ride 90 miles an hour through a street fair, all right? That means
it`s a depraved indifference to human life. That is another theory by which murder one is proven. So if you get your handgun, if you have one,
and you start shooting out the window on a suburban surface road, well, that`s indifference to human life. So whoever did this is going to expect
a murder one charge.
But right now, this person at large, this road rager at large that took the life of a young mom of four just going into the supermarket on a
Sunday morning.
Henry K. Lee, question about those cameras. What do we know?
LEE: Well, I know that whether or not any cameras took pictures of the scene or the aftermath, police have asked the public to contribute any
video clips they may have that maybe unknowingly, they may have captured either what led up to it, the actual shooting, or pictures of the suspect
vehicle leaving the scene.
We don`t have any description of the responsible person or the car. And whether or not the police already know that is one question they
typically want to stand by and hold off on releasing any images to the public.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother of four children, her youngest only a year-and-a-half old. Oakland police say she was in the car with her
husband going south on 98th Avenue when someone in another car shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oakland police officers arrived on scene and they started CPR.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her husband rushed her home, a couple blocks away, to try and save her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a young mother of four, the youngest child being 1 year old, gunned down by an uncontrolled road rager
as she leaves a supermarket on a Sunday morning.
We are taking your calls. I want to go back to Henry K. Lee. Henry, another question is supermarket surveillance video. For all we know --
now, remember, the father says, the husband says, I don`t know what happened. This guy just started shooting. And police say that the bullet
was fired from the outside into the car and this is a case of road rage. The husband, her high school sweetheart, father of all four children, is
completely cooperative.
So what I`m trying to get at is, for all we know, maybe she bumped into somebody`s cart in the supermarket, and they took offense. I mean, I
don`t know what happened because the husband really does not understand why the road rage was unleashed.
Unleash the lawyers, Darryl Cohen, Anne Bremner. OK, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, what`s the defense here for a road
rager out of control that guns down a mother of four?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the defense is going to be, Nancy, they`ll never find him. I mean, you know, every -- by the way,
everyone watches your show. Tonight`s game seven, I think, of the World Series out there in San Francisco -- you know, watching you at the same
time. You know, you`ve got the story out there. It`s all over in San Francisco and the Bay Area and Oakland.
GRACE: So your...
BREMNER: Nobody has come forward saying they know who this is. There`s no evidence...
GRACE: ... story is that the defense is, I hope they never find me. All right, when we do...
BREMNER: Well, you know what, Nancy?
GRACE: ... find him, then...
BREMNER: There`s a pretty good chance...
GRACE: ... what`s the defense?
BREMNER: OK, if they find him, then the defense could be a number of different things. There`s nothing on surveillance. How about, I`m not the
guy. Some other dude else did it, the Saudi (ph) defense? You know, all those...
GRACE: That`s going to be the defense...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I can tell you that right now. Unless -- unless, Darryl, there can be a ballistics match-up to the perp`s gun. If it`s his gun and
it turns out to be his car, Darryl Cohen, then he`s going to have to argue, Oh, somebody else was in my car with my gun that day. So that`s going to
be a problem. But right now, we can`t even identify the road rager, Darryl!
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, we can`t identify the road rager, but maybe there`s more to it than we`re looking at. Maybe there`s a
previous incident. Do we know if the husband is telling the truth that he really doesn`t remember?
GRACE: OK, hold on right there...
COHEN: Did he give him a one-finger salute?
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute! Darryl, those were my initial questions because all three of us are veteran trial lawyers. You look
within. That`s where every murder investigation starts. You look at the husband, the boyfriend, the family, the people living around them. Then
you go out to the workplace.
So my immediate questions were these -- to both of you -- and I`ve already gotten answers. Are we sure that the bullet came from the outside
of the car in? Are we sure it happened on the roadway as the husband is driving? How do I know she even went to the supermarket? How do I know
this whole thing wasn`t a setup?
But what I have learned, because I know to start in the little circle of the home, is that the shot was fired from the outside in, while the car
was moving, and the police have said this is a road rage incident...
COHEN: How can they...
GRACE: ... and the husband is not a suspect at all.
COHEN: Yes, but how can the police say it`s road rage? They don`t have any witnesses. They`re basing everything on a husband that doesn`t
remember anything.
GRACE: OK, so you`re talking about something along the lines of Ray Carruth (ph), who had his girlfriend, Sharika Adams (ph), gunned down by
somebody else because he didn`t want to pay child support, so he was clean. He`s in another car. He didn`t do it. There are witnesses. So he sets up
-- OK, right now, there is no evidence of that at all. What there is evidence of, and this is what we`re going on, is this is a road rage
incident as this mom leaves the supermarket.
Mayra Rodriguez with us. And this is mom`s best friend, 30-year-old Perla, best friend.
Mayra, from what I`m understanding -- and you`ve got to understand -- I know you`re the godmother to their children -- that we`re -- we`re cold-
blooded trial lawyers looking at the evidence. So the first place you look is, you look at the husband or the wife or the lover or the person closest
to the deceased. I`ve looked at the husband. And police are telling us it`s road rage. That`s what they`re telling us. The husband is not
implicated at all, to my understanding, Mayra.
RODRIGUEZ: Well, to tell you -- I really don`t know what to say. I mean, I personally have not asked him, only because I don`t want him, you
know, to think about it and process it. I`m just there to support him. So whenever he feels OK or whenever something or whenever he remembers
something and he wants to talk about it, then, you know, that`s when I`ll be there to listen.
I mean, as of now, all the information that I know is that, you know, everything that he did remember and everything that, you know, comes to his
mind, he has contacted, you know, the Oakland Police Department, and they have all the information, you know, that he gave them that day.
GRACE: You know, Caryn Stark, psychologist, very quickly, you know why everybody immediately -- of course, it`s just police technique to start
within the home. But you know why people are going, Oh, could it be the husband?
There`s no facts to support it being the husband, but it`s just so hard for people to get their mind -- me included -- around a woman, a young
mom, goes to the supermarket to make this posole she makes every Sunday during football season. The husband is driving her home. It`s so hard to
get your mind around some unknown person that doesn`t even know her unloads bullets, killing this beautiful mom, leaving behind four children,
including a 1-year-old that thinks Mommy`s coming home in seven weeks.
It`s hard to accept that kind of cruelty and inhumanity. I think that`s the problem. That`s why we look for answers.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, they always look at the husband first. And it`s so hard to believe that somebody would just use this as an
excuse to release their aggression and anger. And that`s what road rage is. You have the anonymity of being in a car and that protection, and
someone was just trying to let out and get -- and get murderous rage out that way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was in the car with her husband when someone in another car shot her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He drove to his house. Family members came out, started CPR.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Avina and her husband were driving a 1998 black Toyota Camry similar to this one. Investigators encourage businesses and
home owners to check their surveillance videos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. For those of you just joining us, we are on the hunt for a killer, a road rager out of control that guns down a young mom
of four as she`s leaving the supermarket on a Sunday morning. She was getting all the ingredients, like they do -- every Sunday morning during
football season, she and her husband make posole. And all the family and friends have it during the football game. Right? So they go that morning
before church, and they get in the car, and they are leaving when out of the blue, this guy, we believe it to be a man, opens fire out of road rage
and kills mommy. Henry K. Lee, San Francisco Chronicle, we`ve got a lookout on, what was it, a Toyota Camry?
LEE: That`s right. The vehicle that the victims were in were in a Camry. And there`s definitely a bullet hole that goes through the front
windshield and hit our victim in the face.
GRACE: So the lookout on the Camry is for people that may have seen the victim`s car. Very quickly to Dr. Panchali Dar joining me. Dr. Dar,
it`s very easy to tell if a gunshot wound occurred at point-blank range or really within 36 inches of the victim`s body. How does that work?
DAR: They would just look at the amount of tissue that was injured. So the closer the range, the more tissue that`s going to be injured and the
further away the bullet is coming from, the more pinpoint the bullet hole will be. Sometimes bullet holes go through and through and then you have
to see what kind of bullet was used. Full metal jacket or hollow core. The hollow core are like rotor rooters and go right through the body. I
can imagine the scene inside this car, splattered brains, splattered blood, splattered pieces of skull.
GRACE: You know what, I`m going to follow up on that. If you are shot point blank, you`re going to have stippling on your skin. If it`s
point blank. If it`s within 36 inches, likely there will be gunshot residue on the victim`s body. None of that was found, to my understanding,
in this case. And if you can see the monitor, you see it`s at an angle. This came from the outside. There`s no way the husband could have done
this inside the car at that angle. So I`m sure that`s part of the reason they`re ruling him out. Also C.W., how are we going to catch the killer
other than using these cameras?
JENSEN: Well, I am sure that the husband will start to remember more things. He probably, even if he can say that it`s a green pickup truck
let`s say, well, now you don`t have to look for any cars and you don`t have to look for red trucks. So even a modest description, at least you can
take away all those other things and focus an this. The other thing that`s positive that this will be solved is, you know, this was not on the
freeway, Nancy, as you said. This was in an urban area in a neighborhood. So one would expect that that shooter probably is associated with that
neighborhood.
And the last thing that I ever worried about when I worked a homicide was the media. I released names when it benefited the investigation and I
think that`s what`s going on here, but I am very positive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Now we go live to Minnesota. A 2-month-old Minnesota boy found bitten and pummeled dead. When questioned, daddy says the dog did
it. Hey, daddy, have you ever heard of forensic dentistry? The bite marks on your son`s body are human.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops and emergency personnel race to a home in Minnesota after a 2 1/2-month-old infant was found unresponsive and unable
to be revived. The child died from multiple serious injuries, including a skull fracture, rib fractures and multiple abrasions to his chest, arms,
hands and feet. Asked about the alleged bite marks all over the child, police say Jenkins blames a neighbor`s dog for attacking the baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to David Kuharski, KDAL. Thanks for being with us. So the father when confronted with the fact that his baby has been
pummeled dead and is covered in bite marks says the dog did it?
KUHARSKI: That`s right, Nancy. He said the dog, the neighbor dog, four days previous, had bitten the baby several times while he was sitting
in a car seat in a monkey costume, and then previous to that, he told investigators that baby Joseph had fallen out of a swing.
GRACE: Now hold on. Hold on. David Kuharski joining us from KDAL, news director there. You are telling me about a different story. So he
says the baby fell out of a swing, but a baby that age, 2 1/2-months old, cannot sit upright in a swing. It has to be a bucket swing.
KUHARSKI: Exactly.
GRACE: How does a baby fall out of a swing? Let me get this straight. So the baby fell out of a swing and then got bitten by a dog?
KUHARSKI: Correct. That`s what his assertion was or what he told investigators when questioned, was that he had fallen out of this swing a
week before, and then four days previous to this incident happening on the 16th, he had been bitten by the neighbor dog.
GRACE: Well, that doesn`t add up to death. To fall out of a swing, which probably happens about every two or three seconds in this country, a
child falls out of a swing, being bitten by a dog, falling out of a swing, that doesn`t add up to a homicide, to a death, does it, David?
KUHARSKI: No, it doesn`t. And in fact, in the week since the incident, investigators spoke with previous acquaintances of Mr. Jenkins,
Emery Jenkins. And what they determined was, A, he had been physically abusive, had threatened these women and their children, and then when they
went back and talked to baby Joseph`s mother, she as much as said, look, this story is bogus. It was concocted. Jenkins told her not to take the
child into the doctor because he didn`t want to have to explain the baby`s injuries. Turns out Jenkins bit baby Joseph several times because he had
been crying.
GRACE: Now wait a minute. Are you telling me the mother didn`t take the baby to the doctor because the father told her not to? So she just let
the baby die?
KUHARSKI: There was a scheduled appointment, and the mother wanted to bring baby Joseph in, but Jenkins wouldn`t let her.
GRACE: Okay. Let me absorb that, that the mother could have saved the baby`s life and didn`t. Matt Zarrell joining us. Matt, what more do
you know about this? Maybe he`s not a crime buff like all of us, but forensic dentistry shows these bites are human. A neighbor dog didn`t do
this.
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, and we actually have a third story also. Jenkins, the father, also told cops he dropped the baby on top of his head,
hitting the bathtub floor on October 9th while the two were in the shower.
GRACE: Okay. Hold that picture right there for a moment. With me is a special guest, forensic dentist Dr. Mark Snyder. Mark, thanks for being
with us. Explain to me how this works. I`ve tried when I was prosecuting to use forensic dentistry, and I could use it to a certain extent, but it
can only show so much, because the human flesh moves and it`s hard to get a good impression of the human bite. What do you have to say about this?
MARK SNYDER, FORENSIC DENTIST: That`s right, Nancy. Bite marks are limited by the fact that skin is elastic. It moves around. The skin can
swell after an injury. It heals. It deforms, and, therefore, this can change the bite marks. So that one regards bite mark evidence differently
than DNA evidence. There really is no hard and fast science and statistics to validate bite mark evidence. It is very much used instead to rule out a
person. Sometimes if a person has a very, very distinctive arrangement to their teeth, it leaves a certain type of mark on the skin. If they don`t
have that type of tooth in their mouth, then it`s more obvious they couldn`t have perpetrated the injuries.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Baby Joseph just 2 months old is dead. He is found pummeled and bitten to death. Just try to absorb. Pummeled and bitten to death. A
2-month-old baby. When questioned, daddy says the dog did it. Daddy, in case you haven`t heard of forensic dentistry, the bites are human. They
are not from a canine or any animal. They are human. With me, Dr. Mark Snyder, special guest, forensic dentist. Dr. Snyder, how can you
distinguish a human bite mark from a dog or animal bite mark?
SNYDER: Nancy, the arrangement of human teeth is usually u-shaped whereas dogs for the most part is v-shaped. And dogs are called canines
for a reason. They have these big eye teeth, and they make impressions in the skin. So it`s very obvious when you look at a bite mark to see whether
or not it`s human or distinguish it from an animal.
GRACE: Okay. Hold on. What were you saying about the canines, the teeth on the canine?
SNYDER: Canines, dogs, have very large eye teeth. And those --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Okay. Hold on. We`re looking at a shot right now of a dog bite, and you can see on the upper center exactly what you are saying,
because the marks there are much deeper than the rest of the dog bite. It`s exactly what you are saying about the eye teeth on the dog. So any
forensic dentist can look at this and tell the difference, right?
SNYDER: Generally, that`s pretty easy to do.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Darryl Cohen and Anne Bremner. Back to you two. He claims the dog did it. I`m not going to even slow down with
his other stories, all right? Because when somebody changes their story, I don`t mean add to it, I mean change it, that`s a problem. That`s a red
flag. But the dog did it? What are you going to argue, Darryl Cohen, that forensic dentistry is not an accepted science so it can`t come into
evidence?
COHEN: Nancy, I would argue quite frankly that people under pressure say and do strange things. Sometimes it`s the truth, sometimes it`s a lie,
sometimes it resembles a truth or a lie.
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re saying.
COHEN: What I`m saying he`s going to change his story. He changed it twice in addition to that, and he`s going to get his story down as it
sounds, as it hopefully is true or else he is going to keep his mouth shut.
GRACE: OK, I appreciate that he`s going to change his story again. When you don`t know a horse, look at his track record. He`s already
changed it, he`s got three stories. He`ll probably change it again. With that, I agree. But to you, Anne Bremner, all those other stories are
coming into evidence. But the one he`s stuck with right now is that the dog did it.
BREMNER: When you have nothing to say, you should say nothing. Close mouth gathers no foot. He shouldn`t have said anything. Maybe he
panicked. Bottom line is, when we think about what`s reasonable, is it reasonable that a man bites baby or dog bites baby? Maybe he panicked
seeing marks on the kid. That having been said, you know, going to the trial, the child didn`t buy from bite marks. The child (inaudible) there`s
no evidence of that.
GRACE: Are you saying -- are you saying the child did not die of bite marks? Did you say that?
BREMNER: Nancy, I said that. Because you know what --
GRACE: Well, who cares?
(CROSSTALK)
BREMNER: I care. You`re talking about the dog --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Of course it didn`t.
BREMNER: Of course it didn`t, but the bottom line is, that`s not the pivotal issue in this case. The issue is how did that baby die? They have
to prove it wasn`t some kind of an accident, Nancy.
GRACE: I`m trying to decipher, I`m trying to somehow massage what you`re saying into some sort of semblance of a defense. You`re saying, you
know, he didn`t bite of a bite, so who cares if he lied about the dog attacking the baby. I guess that`s the gist of your argument.
BREMNER: No, that`s the beginning where I was going to say of my defense before you came back into the dog did it. But the fact is, the
defense is, the state has to prove it. It`s like a Scottish verdict, not proven, does not have to be not guilty, but not proven. And how do you
prove this is a homicide by the dad? A homicide by the dad, get away from all the other mood music about a bite mark and everything else, and look at
the evidence or lack of evidence, and it could well have been an accident.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Let`s talk about that. David, let`s address what Anne Bremner is saying. Let`s talk about the injuries to the baby and why it`s not an
accident, why the baby was not dropped on its head or fell out of a swing. David, what do we know about the injuries?
KUHARSKI: The baby had a fractured skull, multiple broken ribs, in addition to bites on the chest, his little belly, hands, fingers, feet and
toes. From the ME`s office, the autopsy, he died from blunt force trauma.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now live to Talladega speedway, where a mom of three goes missing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Theresa was last seen on speedway industrial drive just a few miles from the track. Police say Teresa was last seen
wearing blue jeans, pink cowboy boots, a black tank top and a large diamond covered belt and buckle. Authorities don`t know if Teresa ever made it to
the track, but she hasn`t returned home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Carol Robinson joining me from AL.com. Carol, what happened?
CAROL ROBINSON: The police in Lincoln said that Theresa`s husband told them he dropped her off at 2:15 in the morning, Sunday morning,
because she wanted to go to the races and he did not.
GRACE: Okay, Justin Freiman, this is a huge, huge event at Talladega.
FREIMAN: That`s right, Nancy. This event attracts around 75,000 people, many of whom show up days early for tailgating.
GRACE: What do we know about her disappearance, Justin?
FREIMAN: We know she was dropped off by her husband not far from the track, actually just off of an exit, very early in the morning the day of
the race, and then never seen again. We don`t even know if she made it to the track for the big race.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, what do we do to find this woman?
KLAAS: Well, first of all, we don`t even know for sure the husband dropped her where he said he did. He`s ground zero in this investigation.
The police have to determine whether or not he`s telling the truth, and they can do that through lie detectors, they can do that through
interrogation, they can do that through surveillance cameras. It sounds like a pretty far-fetched story to me.
GRACE: Justin Freiman, the thing is, at Talladega, yes, there`s over 70,000 people there, and for this event, which is wildly popular,
tailgating starts three and four days ahead of time. So dropping her off at that spot is not unusual, because that`s the tailgating goes out that
far. But my question is, isn`t the place covered in security cameras?
FREIMAN: Nancy, there are security cameras around. We are not sure what they`re showing. But there`s also a lot of trailers and campers and
camp grounds. A lot of area to cover.
GRACE: Everybody, tip line 205-763-4063. We`re looking for Theresa Benn. Lost at Talladega.
Let`s stop and remember American hero Army Staff Sergeant Damian Campbell, just 23, Baltimore. Army Achievement Medal, from a family of
military and police vets. Dreamed of being in law enforcement. Loved sweets, music, playing video games with his little brother. Parents Donna
and Yandell (ph). Four siblings. Damian Campbell, American hero.
Everybody, brand new second edition of our books. Now at nancygrace.com. Five winners get hand signed sets, all three hard covers,
all the money going to help abused children. Go to nancygrace.com. Last week to enter.
Everybody, Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
